Today's Message Index:
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1. 05:01 AM - Re: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations (Ken)
2. 07:19 AM - Firewall Penetrations-summary as of Sep 2004 (was Re: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations (David Carter)
3. 06:34 PM - EFIS/lite reliability (Jeff Hildebrand)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations |
on juliet
on juliet
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
923te...
Thank you but can you give more details please? Part number or
manufacturer and name perhaps? Did it actually say "itumescent" on the
cartridge. There are surprisingly few specifics in the archives
although Ferg's MSC reference does show the stuff..
I've looked (and asked) in several Home Depots (and elsewhere) and all
I'm finding locally is the silicone caulk based "fire stop", tubes of
mortar cement, and staff that doesn't have a clue what is on their
shelves. My firewall corners have round flange cutouts from
manufacturing that I'd like to plug with something better than rtv. The
inspector actually suggested red rtv but I'd like to find something
better. I guess it's time to put the torch to the silicone "fire stop"
and see if it is at least better than red rtv...
I think folks see red rtv do a wonderful job sealing exhaust plumbing to
cylinder heads and forget that in that application the rtv really
doesn't get any hotter than the cylinder head.
Home Depot did have duct seal putty which might be similar to "fire
putty". Maybe I'll test some of that as well if someone hasn't already
done it.
thanks
Ken
923te wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
>
>I found the itumescent caulk at Home Depot. It was neart the paint
>department and next to the chimney caulks. Good for very high temps.
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: enetrations-summary as of Sep 2004 (was Re: AeroElectric-List: |
stainless towel bar firewall penetrations
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
Ken, some more details are in the 6 e-mails cut & pasted at the bottom of
this. It is all the info I've "archived".
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: stainless towel bar firewall penetrations on
juliet on juliet
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
>
> 923te...
>
> Thank you but can you give more details please? Part number or
> manufacturer and name perhaps? Did it actually say "itumescent" on the
> cartridge. There are surprisingly few specifics in the archives
> although Ferg's MSC reference does show the stuff..
>
> I've looked (and asked) in several Home Depots (and elsewhere) and all
> I'm finding locally is the silicone caulk based "fire stop", tubes of
> mortar cement, and staff that doesn't have a clue what is on their
> shelves. My firewall corners have round flange cutouts from
> manufacturing that I'd like to plug with something better than rtv. The
> inspector actually suggested red rtv but I'd like to find something
> better. I guess it's time to put the torch to the silicone "fire stop"
> and see if it is at least better than red rtv...
> I think folks see red rtv do a wonderful job sealing exhaust plumbing to
> cylinder heads and forget that in that application the rtv really
> doesn't get any hotter than the cylinder head.
>
> Home Depot did have duct seal putty which might be similar to "fire
> putty". Maybe I'll test some of that as well if someone hasn't already
> done it.
>
> thanks
> Ken
1) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James J. Varney"
<jvarney@vfpi.com>
Here's a link to 3Ms website for their fire penetration sealants.
When heated, it swells and forms a barrier for smoke and fire.
go here:
http://www.3M.com/us/arch_construct/fire/index.jhtml
We use the WB+25 to seal pipe penetrations thru walls.
James J Varney
2) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Hibbing"
<n744bh@bellsouth.net>
The 3M fire barrier caulk (the red stuff) is available at most Home Depot
stores in the electrical dept for about $10.00 a tube. This may or may not
be what you are looking for but it is the same stuff that's sold by aircraft
supply houses for about $25 a tube. You have to look really close to find
the stuff as the stores I've visited had it hidden pretty well.
Bill (Skybolt)
3) -->RV-List message posted by: RSamuelson@aol.com
>>Does anyone have experience with "Fire Break 814"? I was thinking of using
it
>>in place of Hi Temp RTV in sealing joints on an RV7A.
Fire Break 814 is a commercial fire and draft sealant, rated at 3000 deg F
for 8 hours.
It's non-toxic, non-corrosive, water clean-up. I got it at my local
hardware
store.
Thanks for the help
Roy Samuelson
4) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ronald A. Cox"
<racox@ix.netcom.com>
> >When you say "fire putty"-what specific product do you refer to
recommend?
> 'Lectric Bob replied:
> There are a number of products out there. It's a mix
> of components with a high specific heat and a
> characteristic that forms a poorly conductive
> "crust" when exposed to very high temperatures.
> Takes quite awhile to breach the face of an
> opening covered with the stuff. I think you
> can get commercial versions in hardware stores.
> A reader told us here on the list that he saw
> some in Home Depot about a year ago.
I think that would be me, Bob.
It was indeed Home Depot, and it's 3M Fire Barrier Caulk, I think called
CP-15, about $15 a tube, and would easily do any two of our airplanes. It's
sorta like high-temp silicone, red color, but has a sandy substance mixed
in, and it cures up pretty stiff. Clean it up when you put it on, cause
it's there to stay later.
Don't know what's in it, but that's what the Glasair folks specify for
anything penetrating the firewall on ours.
Ron Cox
Glasair Super II F/T
under construction at C77, near RFD
5) -->AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Lamb" <n254bl@cfl.rr.com>
I purchased a tube of Fire Stop (Made by DAP) at Home Depot about a year
ago. I was told it would be 10 or 12 dollars. When I looked at the price on
the shelf it said $5.00. When I went to check out the clerk said $10.00. I
asked her to look it up because it was marked $5.00 and she said "you're
right it is $5.00. Who knows what it might be today.
In that store it was in the electrical dept. NOT with all the other puttys
and such in the paint dept.
The container does not tell what temp. it will withstand, only that you can
find the "F" and "T" ratings in the detailed drawings in the Underwriters
Labs fire resistance directory. Wherever that is.
When I reach that point I'll probably call DAP and ask them.
6) Last of all, here's an excellent tutorial by 'Lectric Bob on overall
considerations for firewall integrity against flames:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:18 PM 3/4/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones"
<emjones@charter.net>
>
>Here's my Airplane Builder's Epiphany (or it could be something I ate):
>
>-----The extreme amount of care in putting wires through the firewall is a
>bogus deal. Maybe this is left over from the days when the airplane was
>all wood except the engine compartment.
>
>Can anyone point to a single case where this care was rewarded? The auto
>makers decided long ago that a little rubber and UL 94 V-O plastic
>bulkhead connector was good enough. As for me, I can't imagine a fire
>situation where concern about the feedthroughs would make any sense. If my
>engine is on fire...some fire putty wouldn't be worth a tinker's dam
>(which is also made of putty...)
>
>Opinions? Anybody been there and done that?
>
>Eric
'Lectric Bob replied:
I know of two in-flight fires in amateur built aircraft in the
past 5 years. Both ended poorly. In one case, the pilot exited
the aircraft at altitude (things in the cockpit too hot or
too smokey?).
It's one of those things that while rare, is not difficult
to take advantage of things learned in a century of airplane
building to mitigate the risk.
Fuel-fed fires are fortunately rare but when they do happen,
the potential for total loss of the day is very high. The
concern is not for "wood aft of the wirewall" but people
and hardware aft of the firewall. It doesn't take a very large hole
to admit noxious stuff into the cockpit. Make the hole larger
yet and you get flames and/or enough hot gasses to start
doing the nasty on things behind the panel . . . tefzel,
like it's cousin teflon, has hazardous products of combustion.
Here's an excerpt from Part 23 that we have to build to
for certification:
Sec. 23.1191 Firewalls.
(a) Each engine, auxiliary power unit, fuel burning heater, and other
combustion equipment, must be isolated from the rest of the airplane by
firewalls, shrouds, or equivalent means.
(b) Each firewall or shroud must be constructed so that no hazardous
quantity of liquid, gas, or flame can pass from the compartment created by
the firewall or shroud to other parts of the airplane.
(c) Each opening in the firewall or shroud must be sealed with close
fitting, fireproof grommets, bushings, or firewall fittings.
(d) [Reserved]
(e) Each firewall and shroud must be fireproof and protected against
corrosion.
(f) Compliance with the criteria for fireproof materials or components must
be shown as follows:
(1) The flame to which the materials or components are subjected must be
2000 +/- 150 deg.F.
(2) Sheet materials approximately 10 inches square must be subjected to the
flame from a suitable burner.
(3) The flame must be large enough to maintain the required test
temperature over an area approximately five inches square.
(g) Firewall materials and fittings must resist flame penetration for at
least 15 minutes.
Bob added: The 15 minute thing was selected with two possible outcomes
in
mind (1) you can get on the ground in that period of time and/or
if you have fuel shutoff valves at the firewall and the engine
shuts down, fuel flow available to feed the fire would likely
run out within 15 minutes.
(h) The following materials may be used in firewalls or shrouds without
being tested as required by this section:
(1) Stainless steel sheet, 0.015 inch thick.
(2) Mild steel sheet (coated with aluminum or otherwise protected against
corrosion) 0.018 inch thick.
(3) Terne plate, 0.018 inch thick.
(4) Monel metal, 0.018 inch thick.
(5) Steel or copper base alloy firewall fittings.
(6) Titanium sheet, 0.016 inch thick.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | EFIS/lite reliability |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeff Hildebrand" <jhildebrand@crownequip.com>
We have an EFIS/lite in our Lancair ES and it works great in all aspects of
flight.
We have done many steep turns and it has always been solid as a rock.
Jeff Hildebrand
Lancair ES - C-GSPH
www.lancaires.com <http://www.lancaires.com/>
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