---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/15/04: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:57 AM - Re: KY-97A Wiring (Brian Lloyd) 2. 06:54 AM - Re: Crimpers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 07:03 AM - Re: VOR Antenna Challenged (Kevin Horton) 4. 08:09 AM - Starter Wiring? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 08:19 AM - Re: VOR Antenna Challenged (SportAV8R@aol.com) 6. 08:35 AM - Avg Power Consumption III () 7. 08:35 AM - Re: VOR Antenna Challenged (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 12:22 PM - KX170B Problems (Matt Prather) 9. 01:22 PM - Re: KX170B Problems (Scott Jackson) 10. 01:36 PM - Re: KX170B Problems (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 02:21 PM - Re: Crimpers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 03:46 PM - Help with Stormscope (WX1000) Display (Lighthardware@aol.com) 13. 04:01 PM - Re: Help with Stormscope (WX1000) Display (Joemotis@aol.com) 14. 04:37 PM - Re: Avg Power Consumption III (Tinne maha) 15. 05:02 PM - Re: Help with Stormscope (WX1000) Display (John Fulp) 16. 05:47 PM - Re: Help with Stormscope (WX1000) Display (Lighthardware@aol.com) 17. 05:58 PM - Re: Avg Power Consumption III (Paul McAllister) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:57:07 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KY-97A Wiring --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Oct 14, 2004, at 10:49 PM, Jerry Isler wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Isler" > > > In studying the pin out / wiring diagram for a King KY-97A Comm radio > I am > confused about the power connections to the radio. Pins R and 14 go to > the > aircraft power via a 10 amp breaker and is simple enough. However pins > P and > 13 are switched aircraft power and pins M and 11 are 13.75V power. A > note > says the following: " Switched A/C power, pins P and 13 and 13.75V > power > pins M and 11 must be jumpered together with #20 AWG minimum." Am I > correct > to assume that the switched A/C power is coming out of the radio on > pins P > and 13 and is the 13.75V source for pins M and 11? Yes. They do that so that you can have a source of switched power to drive external devices like your audio panel, intercom, etc. The reason that they make the 13.7V input to the KY-97A separate is that your loads might exceed the capacity of the internal switch so you can use the switch power to control a relay which will handle the larger load. Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:12 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Crimpers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:33 PM 10/14/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert McCallum > > >Hi Bob; > >No, actually just a cardboard and plastic "blister pack". There is a >note on the back describing the various different models available and >what the various dies fit, but no explanation of any difference side to >side. Looks exactly like the photo on the web site and in your articles. Interesting. Todd sent me a sample tool yesterday and I should have it today. >There is still no adjustment for varying insulation thickness but still >seems a step in the right direction. Don't look for this to show up in any tool costing less than several hundreds of dollars. > Another interesting observation; >the larger yellow opening is toward the tip, while the smaller red >opening is toward the pivot, which would seem to be reversed from what >the physics of the forces able to be developed would dictate. The >difference is probably too small to matter, but just the same it seemed >odd. (The jaws are reversible in the frame so this could easily be >corrected) Hmmmm . . . wonder if they simply got assembled backwards. Appreciate your interest in this. We'll see what the tool looks like and if necessary/useful, we'll do a shop notes publication on the tool (or expand the one I already have). Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:12 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: VOR Antenna Challenged --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > >Good point, I have 2 GPS's,the chance of them both going out is next to >nil. I think I will move on to other items that need work. > But, it is theoretically possible for the GPS to become unusable in a local area due to interference from something. This has happened several times in the last few years, and it will happen again. It shouldn't be a big deal if you are VFR, but if you are IFR it might be smart to have another means of navigation available. -- Kevin Horton Ottawa, Canada ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:42 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starter Wiring? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Hello Bob, A customer brought something to my attention and I'm curious as to your opinion. The Vans electrical wiring system drawing says to remove the jumper wire from the starter motor power input stud to the solenoid input, and instead add a wire from the starter relay "I" terminal to the starter motor solenoid. The reason is supposed to be that when the engine starts, the starter motor momentarily generates enough voltage to energize the starter relay and keep the starter engaged for a few seconds, thereby overspeeding the starter. I can think of about a dozen reasons why this is a bunch of fertilizer, and would sure like to be shown how this could actually be the case. Am I missing something or is this "internet electrics 101"? Regards, David ------------------------------------------------------- Dave, your instincts are not far off. There's a grain of truth to Van's caveat but for the wrong reasons . . . First, one needs to be aware of the special nature of modern starter engagement solenoids. I'll refer you to an article on my website at: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf also download and print this diagram at: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/StarterWiring.pdf Given the very inductive, high inrush nature of the solenoid control circuit, the automotive conventional wiring depicted in Figure 1 has a demonstrated history of eating starter control switches. When B&C brought the first, production light-weight starter to the marketplace nearly 20 years ago, the unfriendly nature of the control circuit was well understood. B&C shipped their starters with jumpers installed and recommended the use of an EXTERNAL control contactor as shown in Figure 2. Some years later, other manufacturers brought permanent magnet motor starters to the market. The B&C wiring convention was NOT suitable for these starters because a PM motor generates substantial "back EMF" during armature spin-down. This voltage DELAYS dropout of the starter engagement solenoid by several seconds. However, this does NOT present a hazard to the starter by "over-speeding" . . . Every time you start the engine, the first time a cylinder fires the engine accelerates markedly. If the starter were not fitted with some type of over-run clutch, the engine would strip the gears in the starter before you could release the starter button. Therefore, delayed disengagement, while a tad noisy, does not represent an automatic hazard due to "over-speeding" or any other stress. The noise is generated by the fast but free-wheeling pinion gear. For starters that use the so-called "Bendix" pinion engagement system, delayed engagement may be harder on the starter and ring gear. I'd have to noodle through the operation in a bit more detail. The builder has several choices to eliminate this phenomenon: (1) Go back to the automotive conventional wiring shown in Figure 1 of the diagrams cited above There are robust starter push buttons that will work well in this configuration. (2) Add a "boost relay" to take the hits from the starter contactor engagement solenoid An example is shown in Figure Z-22 of http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf (3) Use the "I" terminal of the external contactor as shown in Figure 3 of the diagrams cited above and recommended by Van's. (4) Use a wound-field, B&C starter that does not suffer from this phenomenon. For the reasons cited above, I don't think the PM motor folks are shipping their starters with the jumper installed. Anyone recommending removal of the factory-installed jumper on a B&C starter simply doesn't understand the nature of the product they're working with . . . so what's new? Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:15 AM PST US From: SportAV8R@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: VOR Antenna Challenged --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com But, it is theoretically possible for the GPS to become unusable in a local area due to interference from something. This has happened several times in the last few years, and it will happen again. It shouldn't be a big deal if you are VFR, but if you are IFR it might be smart to have another means of navigation available. Yeah, the briefers often advise me regarding GPS jamming in the vicinity of Patuxent River NAS (gee, as if the TSA.gov isn't doing enough to unleash the dogs of war on US civilians since 9/11) SO far, it has been a non-ossue, as I have never once seen the GPS hesitate or hiccup on x/c inthat neighborhood, but it does give one pause to wonder, when GPS and pilotage are your sole means of VFR navigation. Add to that the lousy ground visibility in an RV and you've got you hands full just to stay oriented as to position. -BB ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:17 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avg Power Consumption III --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Tinne maha" <<.skip..Seeing as how I don't plan on using position lights strobes together very often skip>> 10/15/2004 Hello Grant, This statement puzzles me a bit. 1) Presuming that you are flying in the USA the US FAR Sec 91.209 (b) requires you to have your anticollision light (strobe light) on at all times, day or night, when flying unless the PIC determines that it should be turned off in the interest of safety. This is usually interpreted to mean avoiding reflections from clouds when flying in IMC. 2) FAR Sec 91.209 (a) requires that the position lights be on from sunset to sunrise. These two sections together mean that both position lights and strobe lights will normally be on together whenever flying between sunset and sunrise in VMC. Were you implying that you dont plan on night flying very often? OC ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:26 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: VOR Antenna Challenged --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:02 AM 10/15/2004 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > > > > >Good point, I have 2 GPS's,the chance of them both going out is next to > >nil. I think I will move on to other items that need work. > > > >But, it is theoretically possible for the GPS to become unusable in a >local area due to interference from something. This has happened >several times in the last few years, and it will happen again. It >shouldn't be a big deal if you are VFR, but if you are IFR it might >be smart to have another means of navigation available. The ordinary risks to GPS are quite remote. Unless an unfriendly entity has a space-based radiator designed to blanket wide areas of turf on the surface, one can expect localized interference sources to have limited effectiveness with durations measured in minutes. I worked an unmanned air vehicle project about 15 years ago where we studied the likelihood of deliberate GPS jamming having much influence on our mission. The risks were low in spite of a deliberate ground-based effort to upset our mission. The risks of accidental upset are lower still. Even if your one-and-only GPS receiver craps, there's no good reason you cannot navigate "blind" well enough to get into range of the hand-held, rubber ducky VOR to allow you to comfortably terminate the flight (not "approved" of course . . . but in a tense situation, who's worrying about approvals). If one plans to routinely fly IFR, then a panel mounted VOR with a real antenna is called for. There are just too many areas of controlled airspace where the VOR is truly useful and still less expensive than TSO'd, IFR approved GPS receivers. Airplanes I rent all have VOR receivers . . . usually two of them. Most have a non-IFR approved GPS. I'd have to file citing VOR capability even tho the VOR displays would be used to verify/legalize GPS displays whether panel mounted or hand-held. Bottom line is that multiple GPS receivers offer an extremely low probability of leaving you GPS-deficient. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:22:19 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: KX170B Problems From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Hello listers... I have a KX170B in my C150 that is giving me a couple of headaches, and I was hoping someone here might have some ideas on how to fix it. First, I notice that the reception and transmission intermittently gets scratchy or cuts out when I am on the local approach frequency. Both transmit and receive seem to be affected. Other frequencies have not shown this problem. It has been suggested to me that I need to get some contact cleaner and spray out the frequency selection hardware. Does that sound right? Does anyone have a favorite product for taking care of this? The other problem with the radio is that the power switch for the nav section intermittent. Is this likely a similar problem to the frequency selection issue? The nav section seems most likely to work before the switch actually reaches the 'nav' detent, and doesn't seem to power up when in the ident position. Any ideas? Thanks and regards, Matt Prather C150 N714BK, VE N34RD ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:22:23 PM PST US From: "Scott Jackson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KX170B Problems --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott Jackson" My local avionics shop advised me that the KX-170 series has a known issue with the power switches failing, and that replacements are no longer available. However, a common work-around is to bypass the switch inside and provide an external on-off somewhere on the panel. Scott in VAncouver ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Prather" Subject: AeroElectric-List: KX170B Problems > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" > > > Hello listers... > > I have a KX170B in my C150 that is giving me a couple of headaches, > and I was hoping someone here might have some ideas on how to > fix it. > > First, I notice that the reception and transmission intermittently gets > scratchy or cuts out when I am on the local approach frequency. Both > transmit and receive seem to be affected. Other frequencies have not > shown this problem. It has been suggested to me that I need to get > some contact cleaner and spray out the frequency selection hardware. > Does that sound right? Does anyone have a favorite product for taking > care of this? > > The other problem with the radio is that the power switch for the nav > section intermittent. Is this likely a similar problem to the frequency > selection issue? The nav section seems most likely to work before > the switch actually reaches the 'nav' detent, and doesn't seem to > power up when in the ident position. Any ideas? > > Thanks and regards, > > Matt Prather > C150 N714BK, VE N34RD > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:13 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KX170B Problems --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:19 PM 10/15/2004 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott Jackson" > > >My local avionics shop advised me that the KX-170 series has a known issue >with the power switches failing, and that replacements are no longer >available. >However, a common work-around is to bypass the switch inside and provide an >external on-off somewhere on the panel. One of the rentals I used to fly simply shorted around the switch and let the radio run all the time. We simply turned the volume down when it wasn't needed. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:23 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Crimpers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:53 AM 10/15/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > >At 08:33 PM 10/14/2004 -0400, you wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert McCallum > > > > > >Hi Bob; > > > >No, actually just a cardboard and plastic "blister pack". There is a > >note on the back describing the various different models available and > >what the various dies fit, but no explanation of any difference side to > >side. Looks exactly like the photo on the web site and in your articles. > > Interesting. Todd sent me a sample tool yesterday and I should have > it today. Just received the new tool. The die-set does a nicer job on the insulation grip for the larger insulations like automotive PVC but is loose on 22AWG Tefzel. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/P255.jpg The wire grip side closes fine and has about the right cross section. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/P256.jpg The biggest problem I have is the gap between the two crimps. When one centers the terminal in the tool, the wire grip and insulation grips are formed on the ends of the insulator as opposed to being centered on the end thirds. The wire grip went gas-tight on the last 50% of its length as opposed to being centered. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/P257.jpg Terminals installed with this tool are probably going to be okay but I think the original tool does a better job. I'm going to return this tool to B&C with a recommendation that they seek out a product that works better on the Tefzel/PIDG combination of wire/terminals. The die set was reversed in the tool as-received. Instructions on the back showed the larger-yellow die away from the end of tool. I turned the die set around to do the tests and photos. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:02 PM PST US From: Lighthardware@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Help with Stormscope (WX1000) Display --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Lighthardware@aol.com Greetings List, I have a Stormscope WX1000 system with a bad display. I have traced the problem, at least in part to a bad resistor, however I haven't been able to find a parts or service manual for this display, and the resister is charred so I can't read the value. Can anyone on the list provide me with the correct value for R-127 on the display board? Any help is greatly appriciated. Thanks, John ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:01:50 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Help with Stormscope (WX1000) Display --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joemotis@aol.com Cannot help with the resistor value but what charred the resistor? sometimes the catastrophic failure of a part is indicitive of something upline that has gone south. Joe Motis Do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:33 PM PST US From: "Tinne maha" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Avg Power Consumption III --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" OC, Thanks for the response. Yes, that was the implication (I said it directly in an earlier thread): I only plan on flying at 'night' for the first or last half hour of a flight, but would still like to have the option of flying at night. Even with both strobe position lights on, my theoretical load will be 14-18 amps with a 20 amp alternator. My original question was two-fold: Mainly, what are actual average loads for particular instruments secondly, how much overhead capacity(alt output - actual continuousload) is sufficient, per the experience of the list. Thank You too for pointing out the FARs: I'm a little embarrased to admit I didn't know strobes are required to be onduring the day. I've heard that it's over rated as a safety practice, but didn't realize it was a requirement. As I ordered the 20 amp alternator this morning from BC I'm pretty much committed. The weight CG advantages it offers me are tremendous. Obviously I'm convinced it will work fine good power management on the ground (i.e. keeping electrical loads to a minimum until just before takeoff 'cuz low RPM = Low output with a vacuum pad driven alternator) will only help. However, I'm still inviting dissenting ( concurring) opinions that are based on experience. Thanks again, Grant From: bakerocb@cox.net Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avg Power Consumption III -- AeroElectric-List message posted by: bakerocb@cox.net AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Tinne maha" tinnemaha@hotmail.com .skip..Seeing as how I don't plan on using position lights strobes together very often skip 10/15/2004 Hello Grant, This statement puzzles me a bit. 1) Presuming that you are flying in the USA the US FAR Sec 91.209 (b)requires you to have your anticollision light (strobe light) on at all times, day or night, when flying unless the PIC determines that it should be turned off in the interest of safety. This is usually interpreted to mean avoiding reflections from clouds when flying in IMC. 2) FAR Sec 91.209 (a) requires that the position lights be on from sunset to sunrise. These two sections together mean that both position lights and strobe lights will normally be on together whenever flying between sunset and sunrise in VMC. Were you implying that you dont plan on night flying very often? OC Find the music you love on MSN Music. Start downloading now! ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:02:27 PM PST US From: "John Fulp" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Help with Stormscope (WX1000) Display --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Fulp" Hi John, It takes over current to burn a resister (which means other components went south). Unless you have the knowledge and equipment, it's best to have it repaired by a pro. B/R John ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Help with Stormscope (WX1000) Display --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Lighthardware@aol.com Greetings List, I have a Stormscope WX1000 system with a bad display. I have traced the problem, at least in part to a bad resistor, however I haven't been able to find a parts or service manual for this display, and the resister is charred so I can't read the value. Can anyone on the list provide me with the correct value for R-127 on the display board? Any help is greatly appriciated. Thanks, John ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:36 PM PST US From: Lighthardware@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Help with Stormscope (WX1000) Display --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Lighthardware@aol.com John and Joe, Thanks for the suggestions and I agree. The indicator came out of another system with a shorted processor. The processor that I have and am basing my system around is in good shape and yellow tagged. I have gone through the indicator and tested the componants to the best of my ability and this resister is the only damage that I can find (that's not saying that I didn't miss something else). BFG wants 700 bucks to go through the display which is rediculous. I would like to try replacing the one resister and seeing if that gets things going. If not, I'll buy another yellow tagged display. Thanks again. John ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:42 PM PST US From: "Paul McAllister" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Avg Power Consumption III --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" Hi all, I have been watching this thread for a while and wanted to offer up my experience. I have a Europa that is powered by a Rotax 914. I had the same concern because the PM alternator was only good for 18 ~ 20 amps. To make sure I could power everything I was proactive with the design of the electrical load. I did the following: Single strobe on top of the fin. 2 A LED Position lights. ~1.6 A LED tail light ~ .75A Low hold in contactor. ~ .03A I have a load analysis spreadsheet that breaks out the load for 6 phases of flight from preflight through to cruise and the highest theoretical load is with the landing light on giving a load of 16 amps, with a cruise load of 8.6 amps. For anyone who would like a copy of this spreadsheet please contact me offlist and I will forward it to you. The LED position lights were obtained from Eric at http://www.periheliondesign.com/ Paul