---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 10/28/04: 28 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:27 AM - Re: Re: Report on auto HID lights for aircraft (Hicks, Wayne) 2. 05:40 AM - Re: Re: Report on auto HID lights for aircraft (Ken) 3. 06:54 AM - Re: Dynon update (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 4. 07:38 AM - Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 08:08 AM - Re: Re: Report on auto HID lights for (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 08:11 AM - Metallic Paint and built in antennas (Bristolsabre@aol.com) 7. 08:50 AM - Re: Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes (Carlos Sa) 8. 08:59 AM - Re: Re: Report on auto HID lights for aircraft (SportAV8R@aol.com) 9. 09:01 AM - (SportAV8R@aol.com) 10. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: Report on auto HID lights for aircraft (Joel Jacobs) 11. 09:48 AM - Re: Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes (Ken) 12. 10:34 AM - Re: Re: Report on auto HID lights for aircraft (Werner Schneider) 13. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: Report on auto HID lights for aircraft (BobsV35B@aol.com) 14. 11:02 AM - condenser for aeroflash strobe searched (Werner Schneider) 15. 11:02 AM - Brian (Fergus Kyle) 16. 11:55 AM - Re: Re: Report on auto HID lights for aircraft (William J. Applegate) 17. 01:28 PM - Re: condenser for aeroflash strobe searched (Richard Tasker) 18. 01:53 PM - Re: Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes 0.00 (echristley@nc.rr.com FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received) 19. 02:08 PM - Re: condenser for aeroflash strobe searched (cgalley) 20. 02:18 PM - Magneto noise (Mike Danielle) 21. 03:06 PM - Re: Magneto noise (Matt Prather) 22. 06:14 PM - FAR Sec 91.205 () 23. 06:17 PM - Re: Magneto noise (Mike Danielle) 24. 07:08 PM - Re: Magneto noise (BobsV35B@aol.com) 25. 07:28 PM - Re: Magneto noise (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 26. 07:34 PM - Re: Magneto noise (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 27. 09:02 PM - Re: Re: Bendix King Skyforce IIIC GPS battery (Rick Fogerson) 28. 10:02 PM - Re: magneto noise (Mike Danielle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:17 AM PST US From: "Hicks, Wayne" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Report on auto HID lights for aircraft --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hicks, Wayne" As for deer, I now buzz the runway at 50 feet first to scare them away. Then I circle back and land. ==================== Wayne Hicks Cozy IV Plans #678 http://www.maddyhome.com/canardpages/pages/waynehicks/index.html ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:51 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Report on auto HID lights for aircraft clamav-milter version 0.80c on juliet.albedo.net --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken The idea was to make the aircraft blend into the light sky instead of being a dark spot in the sky as seen from the ground. I believe that it worked but was not practical to implement. Seems like a valid form of camouflage and I think it was not a color thing so much as an attempt to brighten the dark spot. I don't have any references though to prove it isn't all a myth... Ken Robert L. Nuckolls, III aircraft wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" aircraft > >>Bombers. Anti-aircraft fire. Being invisible was a >>good thing at times. >>The sky if often sunlit, but not always clear. At >>the rate we lost bombers over Europe, even a small >>save rate would make any idea worthwhile. >> >> > > I understand that. What I don't understand is why one would > want ANY lights showing on the airplane in the daytime irrespective > of some desire/attempt to make them "invisible" by adjusting color > temperature on lamps that could never be the right color > to disappear against a daytime blue sky. > > It sounds like a mis-interpretation of some actions or > facts surrounding some other situation. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:18 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Dynon update From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Gerry, a quick search of the RV-List will reveal some details here. I have 30 emails from rv'ers who experience this problem. It is my personal opinion that it is a fleet wide problem. Not installation, not unique to a device. I know of 6 personally in my home town alone with this problem. I can readily reproduce it. I was the first to do so. We have been working different software resolutions. Dynon can now readily reproduce the problem as well. These are facts not bashing. Many is many. And Many is Lots. Numbers? I dunno. And I am putting one in my Super 8 I am building even though I have been very frustrated with this issue, and others the device has had like the EMI problem which can also be reviewed on the RV-List. I don't mind experimenting with a new device. But the facts should be relayed to the community about what folks are experiencing. I cant tell you have many people e-mailed me after the issue broke saying "hey mine does that", or, "I thought it was just me or my installation", or "thanks for letting me know I was not crazy" Mike Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gerry Holland Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dynon update --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland Larry Hi > That is one big disappointment with the problems many are experiencing > with the attitude display drifting 10-15 degrees. I just hope someone does > not get killed before they decide to make *IT* their priority. What is the basis for stating 'many'. Who is assembling this vast number of complainants as inferred by you above. Two things: How many? Where can they be found registered? BTW. The Dynon is a non-IFR certified device, well here in Europe at least. That doesn't mean it shouldn't work OK but in the same light peddling information on poor or inadequate performance needs facts too. Can we have them other than the one or two RV Builders who have experienced an 'occurrence'. I'm not challenging you. Would just like facts rather than an unsubstantiated statement. I use a Dynon! Regards Gerry Europa 384 G-FIZY Trigear with Rotax 912 and Arplast CS Prop. Dynon EFIS, KMD 150, Icom A-200 and SL70 Transponder. PSS AoA Fitted. http://www.g-fizy.com Mobile: +44 7808 402404 WebFax: +44 870 7059985 gnholland@onetel.com == == == == ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:54 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:40 AM 10/28/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken > >The idea was to make the aircraft blend into the light sky instead of >being a dark spot in the sky as seen from the ground. I believe that it >worked but was not practical to implement. Seems like a valid form of >camouflage and I think it was not a color thing so much as an attempt to >brighten the dark spot. I don't have any references though to prove it >isn't all a myth... >Ken Did a netsearch and came up with this tid-bit at http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/wp-comments-popup.php?p=3714&c=1 "During WWII there was a camoflage scheme called Yehudi. (For you younguns, Yehudi is the little guy who turns on the light when you open the refrigerator door.) Patrol bombers hunting subs in the North Atlantic could be seen a long way off. Yehudi hid the bombers in the background sky light. It works like this: there was a row of lights along the leading edge of the wings and around the nose of the plane. The brightness of the lights was controlled by a rheostat to match the brightness of the sky. The bomber would blend into the background and could get a lot closer before being spotted. So, you drive with your lights on all the time? Does that include when you are driving out of the sunset? A motorcycle can disappear completely under those circumstances." This was the only reference I could find to the technique. It's pretty fishy . . . an airplane with lots of lights up front would be a pretty unusual sight . . . wonder how many lights (wattage and spacing) it would take to get enough "fill" to make the airplane disappear? As big as those airplanes were, I'm wondering if they carried enough DC power generation to power the system. It also begs the question about color temperature of incandescent lamps. Adjusting voltage for "brightness" isn't the issue for making the airplane disappear. There are old lamp catalogs that show 1000 watt sealed beam lamps for aircraft applications. 30 years ago, our police helicopters carried 1000 watt spot lights on them . . . while very bright, they still put out "red" light that would be quite visible against a daytime-blue sky. I also have trouble visualizing an array of rheostats (variable resistors) that would provide the means for tweaking intensity of the lamps. We have to be talking about thousands of watts worth of lamps which translates into big momma rheostats (or lots off little ones) to control the currents involved. It's interesting that the writer makes a link between sky background and ground based surroundings that would apply to cars and motorcycles. I think all vehicles, ground and airborne tend to "disappear" when backlighted by the sun irrespective of the operation of headlights. If anyone runs across more data on this, I'd like to know about it. For the moment, it doesn't pass the smell test. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:08:13 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" aircraft Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Report on auto HID lights for aircraft --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" aircraft At 03:32 PM 10/27/2004 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" > > >Hi Bob, > >It seems like we are talking about two different uses of a landing light: >One is to provide the ability to judge the altitutude above and sink rate to >the desired touch down point. For this, a dim, difuse light like you >suggest seems perfectly adequate. > >The other use is to help see and avoid hazards that may exist. For a >slow moving airplane, a dim relatively dim light probably allows you to >see hazards soon enough to avoid them. It is my belief (mostly based >on driving cars), that the faster you go, the more light you need to be >able to see and avoid hazards. > >How is it that you haven't ever had to avoid a runway hazard at night? >I have had to delay a takeoff roll because of dear that were 500' or >so down the runway. I am not sure I would have seen these guys >at night if I had been using a 6V flashlight... > >Are we talking about the same thing? > >Regards, > >Matt- I think so. One is faced the same decision whether landing or taking off and trading off risks with addition of more effective tools. We're talking about moving hazards . . . and they can move rather quickly to boot. In the years I worked accident investigation and analysis for court testimony, I noted that irrespective of how fast the vehicle(s) were moving, it's 3-5 seconds from the time that anyone perceives an accident is about to happen that the event occurs. Had a guy split the turnout lanes on I435 in front of me in KC a few weeks ago. He was coming to a stop in front of trailing traffic at 60+ mph with half his rear profile hanging out into my lane. I had enough time to get on the binders. The anti-skid was doing its job and I didn't loose steering. I steered right with the sincere hope that nobody was in the lane to my right and missed the car by perhaps a foot or so. 500 milliseconds less time and/or sliding tires would have brought us together. I had about 3 seconds to get the job done and the fact that he still had significant forward motion on him as I went past made the difference. Yeah, klieg lights might very well reveal a deer on the runway 1000 feet away and prompt you to abort a takeoff. But just because the runway is clear when you begin the takeoff roll doesn't mean a deer isn't going to get in the way at some time before you get enough altitude to clear a deer. Further, if you have 5+ seconds of warning (gotta see him 350 feet or more away) you have a good chance to get stopped and/or get airborne to clear. When one studies all of the circumstances where vehicles tangle with moving obstructions (deer or other vehicles) the window of opportunity to avoid the accident is exceedingly small and almost never involves the ability to see and perceive hazards more than a few hundred feet away. Modern automotive headlamps are 55W in the high beam. I'm always amazed at what they'll show me looking down the road. Bought one of those rechargeable searchlights at Wallyworld a few months ago. It's a 6 volt, 4 amp bulb (24 watts) and I'm certain it would illuminate a deer on the runway a whole lot more than 350 feet away. I'm not suggesting that folks not install whatever lights that will mitigate risks for night operations. I do suggest that hanging lots of watts or lumens on the wing without evaluating real world operations against cost of ownership is not very elegant. The cost of an HID lamp installation is significant and it has failure modes that are much more difficult to fix than replacing a lamp. If dollars are not a concern, one might opt for dual HID installations to really light up the field while on short final. On the other hand, one might find more utility and realize increased safety by installing some automotive halogens and using the left over dollars to install a second wing leveler. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:13 AM PST US From: Bristolsabre@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Metallic Paint and built in antennas --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bristolsabre@aol.com I plan to use metallic paint on my composite Mustang replica. The radio and VOR antennas are inside the verical and horizontal surfaces. I have heard from other builders that this will work, but none have been able to tell me if the signal strenght/range is affected. Anybody have any experience with this? Tore ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:23 AM PST US From: Carlos Sa Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Carlos Sa I saw a documentary a while back (Discovery Channel or TLC) about Camouflage (from leaves to stealth technology). One of the camouflage methods demonstrated was an array of lights mounted on the side of a tank. Silhouetted against the (day) sky, the tank was clearly visible from a distance. Turn the lights on, it it almost disappeared (if you were looking at the side covered with lights, of course). Carlos do not archive > Did a netsearch and came up with this tid-bit at > > http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/wp-comments-popup.php?p=3714&c=1 > > "During WWII there was a camoflage scheme called Yehudi. > (For you younguns, Yehudi is the little guy who turns > on the light when you open the refrigerator door.) > > Patrol bombers hunting subs in the North Atlantic could > be seen a long way off. Yehudi hid the bombers in the > background sky light. > > It works like this: there was a row of lights along the > leading edge of the wings and around the nose of the plane. > The brightness of the lights was controlled by a rheostat > to match the brightness of the sky. The bomber would blend > into the background and could get a lot closer before being spotted. > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:59:37 AM PST US From: SportAV8R@aol.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Report on auto HID lights for aircraft --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com As for deer, I now buzz the runway at 50 feet first to scare them away. Then I circle back and land. I use this technique, too. (At least, that's what I'd say to law enforcement personnel if questioned...) It's great fun, but the deer hardly even look up. A known deer on the runway is a bona fide problem, like flying into known icing conditions. Now, ten feet AGL will get their attention, but by the time you circle back to land, they are often right back at it again. 'Tis a dilemma. -Stormy ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:01:48 AM PST US From: SportAV8R@aol.com --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com IIRC (and since I was the one to bring it up...) I saw it on the History channel or Discovery; there was actual archival footage. -BB ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:01 AM PST US From: "Joel Jacobs" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Report on auto HID lights for aircraft --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Joel Jacobs" Bright lights will cause the deer to freeze - ever heard the phrase "like deer in the headlights"? Just turn your landing light off for a few seconds on final and the deer will hightail it off the runway... Joel Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Report on auto HID lights for aircraft > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com > > As for deer, I now buzz the runway at 50 feet first to scare them away. > Then I circle back and land. > > I use this technique, too. (At least, that's what I'd say to law enforcement personnel if questioned...) It's great fun, but the deer hardly even look up. A known deer on the runway is a bona fide problem, like flying into known icing conditions. Now, ten feet AGL will get their attention, but by the time you circle back to land, they are often right back at it again. > > 'Tis a dilemma. > > -Stormy > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:13 AM PST US From: Ken 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received": contains.a.forged.HELO@matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO clamav-milter version 0.80c on juliet.albedo.net --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken The third paragraph at http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/project389.html says 10 sealed beams. Further down it talks about electochromatic panels but I think the age of radar etc has likely ended most research into this. Ken >snip ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:58 AM PST US From: "Werner Schneider" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Report on auto HID lights for aircraft --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" >. Now, ten feet AGL will get their attention, but by the time you circle back to land, they are often right back at it again. > Before I had my license I was on a sightseeing in Newzealand, the strip covered with sheep's when coming back. The pilot made a fast low pass from one direction, pulled up made a kind of wingover and landed the other direction, no time for the sheep's to come back, a lot of fun for me a shock for the girls on the back seats! Werner do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:49 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Report on auto HID lights for aircraft --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 10/28/2004 12:36:08 PM Central Standard Time, glastar@gmx.net writes: Before I had my license I was on a sightseeing in Newzealand, the strip covered with sheep's when coming back. The pilot made a fast low pass from one direction, pulled up made a kind of wingover and landed the other direction, no time for the sheep's to come back, a lot of fun for me a shock for the girls on the back seats! Werner Good Afternoon Werner, Back in 1950, I was flying a Bamboo Bomber on charters to northern Wisconsin. It was my first real, full time, job as an aviator. The boss checked me out on late evening arrivals at the northern airports. The standard approach was a low pass downwind followed by that quick tear drop reversal to get on the ground before the deer got back on the runway. What a blast for the brand new guy on the block! Do Not Archive Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:33 AM PST US From: "Werner Schneider" Subject: AeroElectric-List: condenser for aeroflash strobe searched --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" I need the investigation capabilities of the list once more! One of my Aeroflash strobe units Part NO. Power Supply: 152-0007 12V Single Flash just gave up with a leaking Elco The problem is, the label is no longer readable, it could be a 0 or an U Elco: United Chemi-Con 180(0)F or (U)F 350VDC 85C the second problem is that this was a custom made elco for Aeroflash with a low diameter to fit into the housing. Did anybody replace such a condenser in an Aeroflash unit and where did you get the replacement part? Many thanks for your help Werner Gruss Rolf ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:33 AM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Brian --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" "Besides, I am having a bad day and felt like being a curmudgeon. Sorry. I shouldn't talk to people when I get this way." Don't say that! How dull this list would be if we were all the same...............? Ferg ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:46 AM PST US From: "William J. Applegate" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Report on auto HID lights for aircraft clamav-milter version 0.80c on juliet.albedo.net --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William J. Applegate" Hi All, The info that I remember on this was that it was a very promising concept but, radar made it a non factor when it came onboard during WW II, Bill Applegate Ken wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken > >The idea was to make the aircraft blend into the light sky instead of >being a dark spot in the sky as seen from the ground. I believe that it >worked but was not practical to implement. Seems like a valid form of >camouflage and I think it was not a color thing so much as an attempt to >brighten the dark spot. I don't have any references though to prove it >isn't all a myth... >Ken > >Robert L. Nuckolls, III aircraft wrote: > > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" aircraft >> >> >> >>>Bombers. Anti-aircraft fire. Being invisible was a >>>good thing at times. >>>The sky if often sunlit, but not always clear. At >>>the rate we lost bombers over Europe, even a small >>>save rate would make any idea worthwhile. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> I understand that. What I don't understand is why one would >> want ANY lights showing on the airplane in the daytime irrespective >> of some desire/attempt to make them "invisible" by adjusting color >> temperature on lamps that could never be the right color >> to disappear against a daytime blue sky. >> >> It sounds like a mis-interpretation of some actions or >> facts surrounding some other situation. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:37 PM PST US From: Richard Tasker Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: condenser for aeroflash strobe searched --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker It would be 180 uF, but I can't help you with anything else unfortunately. Dick Tasker Werner Schneider wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" > >I need the investigation capabilities of the list once more! > >One of my Aeroflash strobe units Part NO. Power Supply: 152-0007 12V Single >Flash just gave up with a leaking Elco > >The problem is, the label is no longer readable, it could be a 0 or an U > >Elco: United Chemi-Con 180(0)F or (U)F 350VDC 85C > >the second problem is that this was a custom made elco for Aeroflash with a >low diameter to fit into the housing. > >Did anybody replace such a condenser in an Aeroflash unit and where did you >get the replacement part? > >Many thanks for your help > >Werner > >Gruss >Rolf > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:30 PM PST US From: "echristley@nc.rr.com FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received": contains.a.forged.HELO.clamav-milter.version.0.80c.on.juliet.albedo.net@matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO clamav-milter version 0.80c on juliet.albedo.net --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: echristley@nc.rr.com FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO clamav-milter version 0.80c on juliet.albedo.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO clamav-milter version 0.80c on juliet.albedo.net > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken > > The third paragraph at > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/project389.html > says 10 > sealed beams. > Further down it talks about electochromatic panels but I think the > age > of radar etc has likely ended most research into this. > Ken > > >snip > > Also, a few more points. The sky is redder in the mornings and evenings. The eye is more sensitive to light intensity vs color. Much easier to pick out a dark spot, vs an orangish smudge. The technique had only limited success since it only worked moderately in specific conditions, and as stated has been eclipsed by radar. If it worked, the military would definitely be using in today. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:08:30 PM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: condenser for aeroflash strobe searched --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "cgalley" It is 180 Micro farad capacitor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Tasker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: condenser for aeroflash strobe searched > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker > > It would be 180 uF, but I can't help you with anything else unfortunately. > > Dick Tasker > > Werner Schneider wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" > > > >I need the investigation capabilities of the list once more! > > > >One of my Aeroflash strobe units Part NO. Power Supply: 152-0007 12V Single > >Flash just gave up with a leaking Elco > > > >The problem is, the label is no longer readable, it could be a 0 or an U > > > >Elco: United Chemi-Con 180(0)F or (U)F 350VDC 85C > > > >the second problem is that this was a custom made elco for Aeroflash with a > >low diameter to fit into the housing. > > > >Did anybody replace such a condenser in an Aeroflash unit and where did you > >get the replacement part? > > > >Many thanks for your help > > > >Werner > > > >Gruss > >Rolf > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:18:49 PM PST US From: "Mike Danielle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Magneto noise --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Danielle" AAARRRRGGGGHHHH! Frustration is rampant here. I own a Great Lakes replica powered by a Ranger engine. Very simple electrical system with only nav lights and an ICOM A-200 radio. I've got very loud magneto noise which cannot be overcome with the radio's squelch. The noise can be totally eliminated by turning off the left magneto. This has been a long standing problem. I've changed my antenna to one of AAE's dipole designs. (no ground plane required) I've had my magnetos overhauled recently and the full shielded modifications installed. All plug wires are shielded as are the p leads. The p lead shields are grounded at the magnetos. At the panel, the p lead shields are gounded at the common ground. Here's my question for you Bob. In your appendix "Z" figure z-26 you show the p lead shields jointly grounded to the left mag switch. The right mag switch is independently grounded. Your notes to this figure state that the shields should not be attached to any form of ground at the panel. My shields just go to the same common ground that both mag switches share. Is this a likely cause of my noise problem? Lastly, you've mentioned in several of your replies that many noise problems have been eliminated by removing the p lead shield grounding at the panel entirely. Is this a better way to go? Thanks Long Lurking Mike ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magneto noise From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Hi Mike, This is a pretty common problem... You can look in the archives to see other similar questions. More comments/questions embedded below... > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Danielle" > > > AAARRRRGGGGHHHH! Frustration is rampant here. I own a Great Lakes > replica powered by a Ranger engine. Very simple electrical system with > only nav lights and an ICOM A-200 radio. I've got very loud magneto > noise which cannot be overcome with the radio's squelch. The noise can > be totally eliminated by turning off the left magneto. This has been a > long standing problem. I've changed my antenna to one of AAE's dipole > designs. (no ground plane required) I've had my magnetos overhauled > recently and the full shielded modifications installed. All plug wires > are shielded as are the p leads. The p lead shields are grounded at the > magnetos. At the panel, the p lead shields are gounded at the common > ground. > I assume you mean that the p-lead shields are connected to the magneto bodies, and nowhere else (on the engine end)? What did they replace (if anything) during the overhaul? Did they get new cap's/condensors? It's interesting to me that only turning off the left mag alleviates the problem. Is there any chance that you have a 'hot' mag? Will the engine continue to run with both mag switches turned off? > Here's my question for you Bob. In your appendix "Z" figure z-26 you > show the p lead shields jointly grounded to the left mag switch. The > right mag switch is independently grounded. Your notes to this figure > state that the shields should not be attached to any form of ground at > the panel. My shields just go to the same common ground that both mag > switches share. Is this a likely cause of my noise problem? > Typically, its best if the switch end of the p-lead circuit is floating - the noise induced on the p-lead shield by the running magneto can be 'injected' into the ground path for other components by conduction. If the shield is only connected to ground at the mag, then the only method to propagate noise is by radiation - much less likely to cause problems - esp since the shielded wire is coax. Having the shields connected to each other at the switches probably won't cause any issues, but by the same token it serves no useful purpose. I think it would be better if people stopped thinking about grounding the mag to turn it off. Instead, we should decide that each mag requires two wires to control it. To turn the mag on, the two wires should be disconnected from each other, and to turn it off, they should be connected. This whole grounding it has caused more headaches for more people than I care to think about.. > Lastly, you've mentioned in several of your replies that many noise > problems have been eliminated by removing the p lead shield grounding at > the panel entirely. Is this a better way to go? > Probably. > Thanks > Long Lurking Mike > > In my plastic airplane, even after I did what was described above, I still ended up with a fairly large amount of radiated noise - even with the p-lead and shield completely disconnected from the magneto. I installed a lonestar mag filter cap (for Bendix mags only, I think), which significantly reduced the noise. Regards, Matt- ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:15 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: FAR Sec 91.205 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Eric Ruttan" <> 10/28/2004 Hello Eric the lawyer, You have reached an erroneous conclusion based on incomplete information. Please let me explain the situation to you. You are correct in that amateur built experimental aircraft (OBAM if you will) are issued special category airworthiness certificates and that FAR Sec 91.205 reads as you have written. An integral part of the special airworthiness certificate of each amateur built experimental aircraft is a set of Operating Limitations about four pages long. The wording in these Operating Limitations comes from FAA Order 8130.2D AIRWORTHINESS CERTIFICATION OF AIRCRAFT AND RELATED PRODUCTS and is specific to each individual amateur built experimental aircraft being certified. Some of the wording is standard and is included in each and every set of Operating Limitations. Here are some standard wording quotes extracted from a recently issued set of Operating Limitations: QUOTE: In addition, this aircraft must be operated in accordance with applicable air traffic and general operating rules of Part 91 and all additional limitation herein prescribed under the provisions of Part 91.3 (e). The operating limitations are a part of the Form 8130-7, special airworthiness certificate, and are to be carried in the aircraft at all times and be available to the pilot in command of the aircraft. UNQUOTE QUOTE: Aircraft instruments and equipment installed and used under 91.205 must be inspected and maintained in accordance with the requirements of part 91. Any maintenance or inspection of this equipment must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records. UNQUOTE It is incorrect to state that FAR Sec 91.205 does not apply to amateur built experimental aircraft. It does. OC ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:56 PM PST US From: "Mike Danielle" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magneto noise --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Danielle" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Prather" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magneto noise > I assume you mean that the p-lead shields are connected to the > magneto bodies, and nowhere else (on the engine end)? That is correct. The shield is attached to integral fittings at the p lead connection > > What did they replace (if anything) during the overhaul? Did they get > new cap's/condensors? Coils, points, condenser, caps - the works. > > It's interesting to me that only turning off the left mag alleviates the > problem. Is there any chance that you have a 'hot' mag? Will the > engine continue to run with both mag switches turned off? No, everything works as it should. > > > Typically, its best if the switch end of the p-lead circuit is floating - > the noise > induced on the p-lead shield by the running magneto can be 'injected' into > the ground path for other components by conduction. If the shield is only > connected to ground at the mag, then the only method to propagate noise > is by radiation - much less likely to cause problems - esp since the shielded > wire is coax. Having the shields connected to each other at the switches > probably won't cause any issues, but by the same token it serves no useful > purpose. > Well, that makes sense. But Bob's appendix z, figure z-26 recommends grounding both shields to the mag switch ground. I guess I'm confused about the intent of that circuit. I will proceed from here by just grounding the p lead shields at the mags and leave the panel end "floating" as you described. I've no idea why the left mag makes a racket while the other, wired identically, is nice and quiet. I'll get this done on Sunday and report back. Thanks for the input. Mike ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:30 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magneto noise --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 10/28/2004 8:19:17 PM Central Standard Time, mikeda@CASCADEACCESS.COM writes: I will proceed from here by just grounding the p lead shields at the mags and leave the panel end "floating" as you described. I've no idea why the left mag makes a racket while the other, wired identically, is nice and quiet. I'll get this done on Sunday and report back. Thanks for the input. Good Evening Mike, You are missing the most important point. You don't want the switch end of the shield to float in the normal sense of such things as you would a shield for a strobe wire. What you want is to use the shield as the ground to shut down the mags. Don't ground it or the mag switches at the point where the switches are mounted. Keep everything isolated from all grounds except the shields where they ground to the mag. You should just use the shield to complete grounding of the P lead to the magneto. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:28:50 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magneto noise --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:05 PM 10/28/2004 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Danielle" > > >AAARRRRGGGGHHHH! Frustration is rampant here. I own a Great Lakes >replica powered by a Ranger engine. Very simple electrical system with >only nav lights and an ICOM A-200 radio. I've got very loud magneto noise >which cannot be overcome with the radio's squelch. The noise can be >totally eliminated by turning off the left magneto. This has been a long >standing problem. I've changed my antenna to one of AAE's dipole >designs. (no ground plane required) I've had my magnetos overhauled >recently and the full shielded modifications installed. All plug wires >are shielded as are the p leads. The p lead shields are grounded at the >magnetos. At the panel, the p lead shields are gounded at the common ground. > >Here's my question for you Bob. In your appendix "Z" figure z-26 you show >the p lead shields jointly grounded to the left mag switch. The right mag >switch is independently grounded. Your notes to this figure state that >the shields should not be attached to any form of ground at the panel. My >shields just go to the same common ground that both mag switches >share. Is this a likely cause of my noise problem? > >Lastly, you've mentioned in several of your replies that many noise >problems have been eliminated by removing the p lead shield grounding at >the panel entirely. Is this a better way to go? This works . . . sometimes. First, disconnect the p-leads at both mags and run the engine (I presume you can shut the engine down by shutting off the fuel). If the noise is still there, then you're looking for something besides p-lead noise. If the noise goes away, then try wiring as described the 'Connection. If you have the classic keyswitch, see figure Z-26. If you're using toggles, see figure z-12 for an exemplar magneto wiring. The suggestion is to NOT ground the p-lead shield at the cockpit end . . . only the engine end. Use the p-lead shield to PROVIDE ground for the switch at the cockpit end. More than one radio noise problem has been solved with this technique. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:34:22 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magneto noise --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > Typically, its best if the switch end of the p-lead circuit is floating - > > the noise > > induced on the p-lead shield by the running magneto can be 'injected' into > > the ground path for other components by conduction. If the shield is only > > connected to ground at the mag, then the only method to propagate noise > > is by radiation - much less likely to cause problems - esp since the > > shielded wire is coax. Having the shields connected to each other at > the switches > > probably won't cause any issues, but by the same token it serves no useful > > purpose. > > >Well, that makes sense. But Bob's appendix z, figure z-26 recommends >grounding both shields to the mag switch ground. I guess I'm confused about >the intent of that circuit. > >I will proceed from here by just grounding the p lead shields at the mags >and leave the panel end "floating" as you described. I've no idea why the >left mag makes a racket while the other, wired identically, is nice and >quiet. I'll get this done on Sunday and report back. Thanks for the input. Most people are unaware of what the GRD terminals do in a keyswitch. See the switching function matrix on Figure Z-26. There are two GRD terminals and they connect to other terminals on the switch at various times during switch rotation and they're not even connected to each other unless you're in the START position. Further, GRD terminals do not connect to the switch frame and therefore do not get "grounded" to the airframe through the mounting. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:03 PM PST US From: "Rick Fogerson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Bendix King Skyforce IIIC GPS battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" For those who don't have to have color but still have all the navigational capabilities, the skymap II is worth considering. It does not have the internal battery problem to deal with, has rechargeble battery backup if you lose your electrical, weighs about 1/2 and is 1/2 the depth of the III so it can be mounted on the front of the panel, and requires only 20% of the watts of the III. Also, the price is only $875 Vs $2100 at Vans. I'm going with the II for the above reasons and spend the $1200 bucks on something else. Rick Fogerson RV3 90% Boise, ID From: "kurt schrader" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Bendix King Skyforce IIIC GPS battery > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > > Thanks Chuck, > > This is just what I need. I am in ABQ this week, so > I'll order one when I get home and have this thing up > and running over $100 cheaper. > > I appreciate all the responces, > > Kurt S. KitFox S-5/NSI turbo > > --- Chuck Jensen wrote: > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chuck >> Jensen >> >> For all the DIYs. The disassembly is not difficult >> but as you work your way >> down through the board levels, just remove the >> screws and clips as you go. >> The battery leads are soldered directly onto the >> board. Use a solder-sucker >> to desolder the pigtail joints. Put the new battery >> pigtails in place, >> soldered it (not too many close-by components to be >> heat damaged) and >> reassemble. Plug in, turn on and allow internal >> battery to charge up. >> >> Cycle unit off/on. The database will likely be >> corrupted (it's probably a >> Political Database). If the memory is corrupted, go >> into SETUP and clear >> memory. The code to clear memory is either 3-3-3-3 >> or 1-2-3-4. When the >> memory is cleared, your pin number is reset to >> 1-2-3-4. You will lose all >> your saved flight plans and/or waypoints, but that's >> not the end of the >> world! >> >> Kurt, an external battery may get disconnected, or >> not charged; each time >> resulting in loss of your memory and corrupted >> database. Replacing the >> internal battery is a once-every-5-year project and >> takes less than an >> hour...2 hours for the dexterity-challenged. Not a >> big deal. >> >> As to the battery itself, the McMaster-Carr P/N is >> 6951K999 and the >> description is "disposable lithium battery Hawker >> Entercell 3.7V TO6/8AA TCL >> with one wire pigtail each end." Price was $13.46 >> with $3.45 shipping. >> >> Chuck > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:04 PM PST US From: "Mike Danielle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: re: magneto noise --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Danielle" Thanks to both Bobs for the help with the mag noise problem. I understand the circuitry now and will re-wire the mags this Sunday. cheers, Mike NC31GL