---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 10/29/04: 46 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:31 AM - Aircraft visibility (was something about motorcycles?) (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 2. 05:59 AM - Re: Re: Bendix King Skyforce IIIC GPS (William Yamokoski) 3. 06:14 AM - Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 06:22 AM - Re: Metallic Paint and built in antennas (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 06:28 AM - Re: condenser for aeroflash strobe searched (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 06:29 AM - Carbon Fiber effect on Radio transmission/reception (JSMONDAY@aol.com) 7. 06:34 AM - Re: Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes (George Neal E Capt AU/PC) 8. 06:39 AM - Re: Re: Re: Bendix King Skyforce IIIC GPS battery () 9. 06:51 AM - Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes (Glen Matejcek) 10. 07:03 AM - Re: condenser for aeroflash strobe searched (Trampas) 11. 07:20 AM - Re: Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes (Dj Merrill) 12. 07:24 AM - Re: Aero Electric-List: Magneto noise (Bill Schlatterer) 13. 08:23 AM - HF and trailing wire antennas (Brian Lloyd) 14. 09:00 AM - Re: Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes 0.00 (echristley@nc.rr.com FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received) 15. 09:00 AM - Re: Carbon Fiber effect on Radio (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 09:01 AM - Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 09:01 AM - Re: Metallic Paint and built in antennas (Ron Raby) 18. 09:06 AM - Re: Re: Bendix King Skyforce IIIC GPS battery (HAL KEMPTHORNE) 19. 09:07 AM - Re: amateur air mobile (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 09:08 AM - Re: Quality Stick Grips (Richard Riley) 21. 09:59 AM - Harbor Freight has $20 Battery Maintainer (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 22. 10:13 AM - Re: Dynon update (Gerry Holland) 23. 10:43 AM - Re: Harbor Freight has $20 Battery Maintainer 0.00 FORGED_... (WRBYARS@aol.com) 24. 10:47 AM - Re: Harbor Freight has $20 Battery Maintainer 0.00 FORGED_... (BobsV35B@aol.com) 25. 10:54 AM - Re: Dynon update (Lloyd, Daniel R.) 26. 11:22 AM - Re: Re: amateur air mobile 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO (Dj Merrill) 27. 11:36 AM - Re: Dynon update (Dan Checkoway) 28. 12:02 PM - Re: Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO (Brian Lloyd) 29. 12:02 PM - Re: HF and trailing wire antennas (George Neal E Capt AU/PC) 30. 12:03 PM - Re: Dynon update (Gerry Holland) 31. 12:06 PM - Re: Harbor Freight has $20 Battery Maintainer 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO (Brian Lloyd) 32. 12:52 PM - Re: Re: amateur air mobile (Joe Dubner) 33. 01:01 PM - Re: HF and trailing wire antennas (Brian Lloyd) 34. 01:22 PM - Re: Re: amateur air mobile (Brian Lloyd) 35. 01:54 PM - Re: Harbor Freight has $20 Battery Maintainer 0.00 FORGED_... (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 36. 03:13 PM - $20 Battery Maintainer (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 37. 03:16 PM - line of sight communication (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 38. 03:43 PM - Re: line of sight communication 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO 1.40 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX Date: is 96 hours or more after Received: date (Gary Craze) 39. 03:46 PM - Re: line of sight communication 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO 1.40 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX Date: is 96 hours or more after Received: date () 40. 03:48 PM - Re: $20 Battery Maintainer 0.01 SUBJ_DOLLARS Subject starts with dollar amount 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO 1.40 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX Date: is 96 hours or more after Received: date (dsvs@comcast.net) 41. 07:29 PM - Re: line of sight communication 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO (Dj Merrill) 42. 08:03 PM - Re: line of sight communication (Brian Lloyd) 43. 08:54 PM - Early Aviation Radios (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 44. 09:03 PM - Re: Re: amateur air mobile (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 45. 09:16 PM - Re: Line of sight communication (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 46. 09:38 PM - Re: $20 Battery Maintainer (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:31:42 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft visibility (was something about motorcycles?) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com I recall seeing an article in (I believe) Southern Aviator a few years back about a Spitfire recon plane that was painted pink (and still is) owned by someone in the Southeast U.S. The color reportedly blended in with the morning/evening sky color making it more difficult to spot... FWIW from The PossumWorks in TN - RV STILL unpainted, but it won't be PINK! 8-) Mark Phillips - do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:40 AM PST US From: "William Yamokoski" battery Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Bendix King Skyforce IIIC GPS battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Yamokoski" Hi Folks, I thought technology was supposed to get cheaper as time marched on:) I bought a Skyforce IIIC in 2000 for $1645. Guess they figure they've got a pretty good product. Bill Yamokoski, N4970Y 410 hrs on the Glastar/Eggensoob Also, the price is only $875 Vs $2100 at Vans. I'm going with the II for the above reasons and spend the $1200 bucks on something else. Rick Fogerson RV3 90% Boise, ID From: "kurt schrader" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: Bendix King Skyforce IIIC GPS battery > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: kurt schrader > > > Thanks Chuck, > > This is just what I need. I am in ABQ this week, so > I'll order one when I get home and have this thing up > and running over $100 cheaper. > > I appreciate all the responces, > > Kurt S. KitFox S-5/NSI turbo > > --- Chuck Jensen wrote: > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Chuck >> Jensen >> >> For all the DIYs. The disassembly is not difficult >> but as you work your way >> down through the board levels, just remove the >> screws and clips as you go. >> The battery leads are soldered directly onto the >> board. Use a solder-sucker >> to desolder the pigtail joints. Put the new battery >> pigtails in place, >> soldered it (not too many close-by components to be >> heat damaged) and >> reassemble. Plug in, turn on and allow internal >> battery to charge up. >> >> Cycle unit off/on. The database will likely be >> corrupted (it's probably a >> Political Database). If the memory is corrupted, go >> into SETUP and clear >> memory. The code to clear memory is either 3-3-3-3 >> or 1-2-3-4. When the >> memory is cleared, your pin number is reset to >> 1-2-3-4. You will lose all >> your saved flight plans and/or waypoints, but that's >> not the end of the >> world! >> >> Kurt, an external battery may get disconnected, or >> not charged; each time >> resulting in loss of your memory and corrupted >> database. Replacing the >> internal battery is a once-every-5-year project and >> takes less than an >> hour...2 hours for the dexterity-challenged. Not a >> big deal. >> >> As to the battery itself, the McMaster-Carr P/N is >> 6951K999 and the >> description is "disposable lithium battery Hawker >> Entercell 3.7V TO6/8AA TCL >> with one wire pigtail each end." Price was $13.46 >> with $3.45 shipping. >> >> Chuck > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:14:58 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:49 PM 10/28/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken > >The third paragraph at >http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/project389.html says 10 >sealed beams. >Further down it talks about electochromatic panels but I think the age >of radar etc has likely ended most research into this. >Ken Interesting! Thanks for the heads up on this. I don't know what I spelled wrong in my original searches but didn't turn up nearly as many hits on the concept as another search this morning. This anecdote underscores the nature of simple-ideas combined with the grey-matter of several individuals to sift through data (not the least of which is historical) and achieve understanding. I'm doing a white paper for RAC right now on an electrical system upgrade to one of our airplanes. One of the most interesting (and revealing) aspects of the work is the historical study. It serves to illuminate how far back in time and technology the roots of our products go (and how far behind they are today!). It's been an interesting project. Did you know that electrical systems were being placed on airplanes as early as 1915? Less than 10 years after the Brothers sold the Army its first airplane, they were running radio transmitters into trailing wire antennas powered by wind driven generators? Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------------- < Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition > < of man. Advances which permit this norm to be > < exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the > < work of an extremely small minority, frequently > < despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed > < by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny > < minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes > < happens) is driven out of a society, the people > < then slip back into abject poverty. > < > < This is known as "bad luck". > < -Lazarus Long- > <------------------------------------------------------> --- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:59 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Metallic Paint and built in antennas --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:10 AM 10/28/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bristolsabre@aol.com > >I plan to use metallic paint on my composite Mustang replica. >The radio and VOR antennas are inside the verical and horizontal surfaces. >I have heard from other builders that this will work, but none have been able >to tell me if the signal strenght/range is affected. >Anybody have any experience with this? >Tore That's easy. it IS affected. Now's the hard part. Few folks will be able to tell you how much and even if we could tell you EXACTLY (Hey, Tore. Putting that antenna inside the vertical fin as you've described is going to attenuate your signal by 1.383 dB), how would that help you? Is changing paint an option? If not, use what you've planned. If radio performance proves to be less than satisfactory, then you KNOW where your investigation for improved performance will begin. You may find that the antennas work fine for the way you use your airplane and no further action is called for. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:06 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: condenser for aeroflash strobe searched --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 04:27 PM 10/28/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker > > >It would be 180 uF, but I can't help you with anything else unfortunately. > >Dick Tasker > >Werner Schneider wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" > > > > >I need the investigation capabilities of the list once more! > > > >One of my Aeroflash strobe units Part NO. Power Supply: 152-0007 12V Single > >Flash just gave up with a leaking Elco > > > >The problem is, the label is no longer readable, it could be a 0 or an U > > > >Elco: United Chemi-Con 180(0)F or (U)F 350VDC 85C > > > >the second problem is that this was a custom made elco for Aeroflash with a > >low diameter to fit into the housing. > > > >Did anybody replace such a condenser in an Aeroflash unit and where did you > >get the replacement part? > > > >Many thanks for your help I saw a strobe supply somewhere (OSH Flymarket perhaps) where the owner had drilled holes in the case and brought leads out to an external capacitor mounted on the outside. Will never know exactly why this happened but it seems likely that he could not find an exact replacement and the capacitor he had was too big to fit inside. You need a photo-flash capacitor of 180uF/350V ratings. It if doesn't fit inside, the electrons will not be insulted if you bolt it up to the outside. Resist any urges to make your strobe put out more Joules per flash by increasing capacitor size above 180uF . . . this puts more strain on several critical parts of the system and may shorten life dramatically. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:28 AM PST US From: JSMONDAY@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Carbon Fiber effect on Radio transmission/reception --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: JSMONDAY@aol.com Since metallic paint was a topic.... how much does carbon fiber affect radio transmission/reception?? Thanks, John S. Monday ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:46 AM PST US From: George Neal E Capt AU/PC 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received": contains.a.forged.HELO@matronics.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: George Neal E Capt AU/PC Trailing wire...hmmmm CQDX CQDX CQDX...N8ZG airborne mobile Nothing like combining hobbies! Neal:) Army its first airplane, they were running radio transmitters into trailing wire antennas powered by wind driven generators? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:22 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Bendix King Skyforce IIIC GPS battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Skyforce is owned by King now. They aren't cheap on anything. Charlie Kuss do not archieve > > From: "William Yamokoski" > Date: 2004/10/29 Fri AM 08:58:19 EDT > To: > battery > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Bendix King Skyforce IIIC GPS > battery > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:21 AM PST US From: "Glen Matejcek" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" Bob et al- I think I've got the disappearing airplane figured out.... First, there was a camouflage scheme for warships in WWII. I believe it was called 'dazzle' and it basically mimicked the contours of the bow and stern along the hull in various shades of grey. It wouldn't make the ship invisible, it just screwed up it's apparent length. Without a good value for the apparent length, range was impossible to calculate properly. With out proper range information, you couldn't actually hit the ship, even if you could see it. Now, if these airframe mounted lights were located along the leading edges and nose of the plane such that the silhouette was changed, the apparent size and therefore the apparent range of the plane would be altered. It might even cause mis-identification of the aircraft type, confusing the AA gunners even more. Further proof of the effectiveness of this technique can be found in an old black and white documentary that has been playing on the cable channels lately. I suspect that this detail slipped by the censors inadvertently, but towards the end of the piece, there is exterior footage of a B-52 flying a low level mission over a lot of snow and ice. Occasionally you can see it's shadow. The shadow is clearly that of a B-17. Now that would have to confuse a gunner! BTW, I think the name of the documentary was Doctor Strangelove.... Now, where did I leave my medication, and do not archive! Glen Matejcek aerobubba@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:09 AM PST US From: "Trampas" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: condenser for aeroflash strobe searched --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" A good source for flash capacitors is the cheap disposable camera's with flashes. Not sure what value etc they are but it might be an option. Regards, Trampas www.sterntech.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: condenser for aeroflash strobe searched --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 04:27 PM 10/28/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker > > >It would be 180 uF, but I can't help you with anything else unfortunately. > >Dick Tasker > >Werner Schneider wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" > > > > >I need the investigation capabilities of the list once more! > > > >One of my Aeroflash strobe units Part NO. Power Supply: 152-0007 12V Single > >Flash just gave up with a leaking Elco > > > >The problem is, the label is no longer readable, it could be a 0 or an U > > > >Elco: United Chemi-Con 180(0)F or (U)F 350VDC 85C > > > >the second problem is that this was a custom made elco for Aeroflash with a > >low diameter to fit into the housing. > > > >Did anybody replace such a condenser in an Aeroflash unit and where did you > >get the replacement part? > > > >Many thanks for your help I saw a strobe supply somewhere (OSH Flymarket perhaps) where the owner had drilled holes in the case and brought leads out to an external capacitor mounted on the outside. Will never know exactly why this happened but it seems likely that he could not find an exact replacement and the capacitor he had was too big to fit inside. You need a photo-flash capacitor of 180uF/350V ratings. It if doesn't fit inside, the electrons will not be insulted if you bolt it up to the outside. Resist any urges to make your strobe put out more Joules per flash by increasing capacitor size above 180uF . . . this puts more strain on several critical parts of the system and may shorten life dramatically. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:05 AM PST US From: Dj Merrill Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill George Neal E Capt AU/PC wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: George Neal E Capt AU/PC > > Trailing wire...hmmmm > CQDX CQDX CQDX...N8ZG airborne mobile > Nothing like combining hobbies! > > Neal:) What, don't you carry your amateur handheld with you in the plane now? A mile high is an awesome antenna location for 2m and 73cm... *grin* I haven't tried shortwave, though. -Dj ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:48 AM PST US From: "Bill Schlatterer" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Aero Electric-List: Magneto noise --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" I think the issue is explained on page 16-13 of the Connection. Just happened to be reading that section. Bill S -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Matt Prather Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Magneto noise --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Hi Mike, This is a pretty common problem... You can look in the archives to see other similar questions. More comments/questions embedded below... > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Danielle" > > > AAARRRRGGGGHHHH! Frustration is rampant here. I own a Great Lakes > replica powered by a Ranger engine. Very simple electrical system with > only nav lights and an ICOM A-200 radio. I've got very loud magneto > noise which cannot be overcome with the radio's squelch. The noise can > be totally eliminated by turning off the left magneto. This has been a > long standing problem. I've changed my antenna to one of AAE's dipole > designs. (no ground plane required) I've had my magnetos overhauled > recently and the full shielded modifications installed. All plug wires > are shielded as are the p leads. The p lead shields are grounded at the > magnetos. At the panel, the p lead shields are gounded at the common > ground. > I assume you mean that the p-lead shields are connected to the magneto bodies, and nowhere else (on the engine end)? What did they replace (if anything) during the overhaul? Did they get new cap's/condensors? It's interesting to me that only turning off the left mag alleviates the problem. Is there any chance that you have a 'hot' mag? Will the engine continue to run with both mag switches turned off? > Here's my question for you Bob. In your appendix "Z" figure z-26 you > show the p lead shields jointly grounded to the left mag switch. The > right mag switch is independently grounded. Your notes to this figure > state that the shields should not be attached to any form of ground at > the panel. My shields just go to the same common ground that both mag > switches share. Is this a likely cause of my noise problem? > Typically, its best if the switch end of the p-lead circuit is floating - the noise induced on the p-lead shield by the running magneto can be 'injected' into the ground path for other components by conduction. If the shield is only connected to ground at the mag, then the only method to propagate noise is by radiation - much less likely to cause problems - esp since the shielded wire is coax. Having the shields connected to each other at the switches probably won't cause any issues, but by the same token it serves no useful purpose. I think it would be better if people stopped thinking about grounding the mag to turn it off. Instead, we should decide that each mag requires two wires to control it. To turn the mag on, the two wires should be disconnected from each other, and to turn it off, they should be connected. This whole grounding it has caused more headaches for more people than I care to think about.. > Lastly, you've mentioned in several of your replies that many noise > problems have been eliminated by removing the p lead shield grounding at > the panel entirely. Is this a better way to go? > Probably. > Thanks > Long Lurking Mike > > In my plastic airplane, even after I did what was described above, I still ended up with a fairly large amount of radiated noise - even with the p-lead and shield completely disconnected from the magneto. I installed a lonestar mag filter cap (for Bendix mags only, I think), which significantly reduced the noise. Regards, Matt- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:11 AM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: AeroElectric-List: HF and trailing wire antennas --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Oct 29, 2004, at 9:34 AM, George Neal E Capt AU/PC wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: George Neal E Capt AU/PC > > > Trailing wire...hmmmm > CQDX CQDX CQDX...N8ZG airborne mobile > Nothing like combining hobbies! I had such a rig in my Comanche for my ocean crossings. I changed the heterodyne crystals in my Collins KWM-2 transceiver to put it on the aviation frequencies and fed an adjustable-length trailing wire antenna using a plastic funnel as a drogue. I had calculated the number of turns on the crank to let out the proper length wire for each of the frequencies. I had an SWR bridge so I could fine-tune the length of the antenna for lowest SWR. Surprisingly, it worked pretty well. Nowadays general-coverage transceivers are much easier to come by as are automatic antenna tuners. It is almost worth it to install HF in any airplane especially since some of these radios also can be made to transmit AM on the aviation frequencies (the Icom IC-706mkIIg comes to mind here). This strikes me as a good thing as a potential backup. Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:11 AM PST US From: "echristley@nc.rr.com FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received": contains.a.forged.HELO@matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: echristley@nc.rr.com FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO > > Did you know that electrical systems were being placed on airplanes > as early as 1915? Less than 10 years after the Brothers sold the > Army its first airplane, they were running radio transmitters into > trailing wire antennas powered by wind driven generators? > > Bob . . . > Say, WHAT?! Was it actual voice systems or morse code? ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:11 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" transmission/reception Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Carbon Fiber effect on Radio transmission/reception --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" transmission/reception At 09:29 AM 10/29/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: JSMONDAY@aol.com > >Since metallic paint was a topic.... how much does carbon fiber affect radio >transmission/reception?? Carbon fiber is a severe attenuator. It's a sure bet that antennas mounting within a carbon fiber airplane will be unsatisfactory. Carbon fiber is a good enough conductor that we intially thought it would substitute for aluminum as an antenna ground plane. It's good, but not THAT good. Our antenna installations now get aluminum ground planes added on the underside of the skin. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:47 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > >Further proof of the effectiveness of this technique can be found in an old >black and white documentary that has been playing on the cable channels >lately. I suspect that this detail slipped by the censors inadvertently, >but towards the end of the piece, there is exterior footage of a B-52 >flying a low level mission over a lot of snow and ice. Occasionally you >can see it's shadow. The shadow is clearly that of a B-17. Now that would >have to confuse a gunner! BTW, I think the name of the documentary was >Doctor Strangelove.... Gee . . . saw that movie just a few weeks ago . . . now I need to go watch it again . . . Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:57 AM PST US From: "Ron Raby" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Metallic Paint and built in antennas --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" I would check with the paint mfg to see if the metal in the paint is actually metal. I was told that it may actually be some sort of fine ground up plastic material. Regards Ron Raby Lancair ES ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Metallic Paint and built in antennas > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 11:10 AM 10/28/2004 -0400, you wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bristolsabre@aol.com > > > >I plan to use metallic paint on my composite Mustang replica. > >The radio and VOR antennas are inside the verical and horizontal surfaces. > >I have heard from other builders that this will work, but none have been able > >to tell me if the signal strenght/range is affected. > >Anybody have any experience with this? > >Tore > > That's easy. it IS affected. Now's the hard part. Few folks > will be able to tell you how much and even if we could > tell you EXACTLY (Hey, Tore. Putting that antenna inside the > vertical fin as you've described is going to attenuate your > signal by 1.383 dB), how would that help you? > > Is changing paint an option? If not, use what you've planned. > If radio performance proves to be less than satisfactory, then > you KNOW where your investigation for improved performance will > begin. You may find that the antennas work fine for the way > you use your airplane and no further action is called for. > > Bob . . . > > > --- > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:42 AM PST US From: HAL KEMPTHORNE Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Bendix King Skyforce IIIC GPS battery --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: HAL KEMPTHORNE I've had a II almost since they first came out. I have seen used ones on ebay for much less than $900 - like $350 or so I think. They use six AA batts and if NiCad they will recharge when plugged into system. I mounted mine on a hinge so it can be used in the Sierra backcountry in Bubba as well as airplane. hal Rick Fogerson wrote: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" For those who don't have to have color but still have all the navigational capabilities, the skymap II is worth considering. It does not have the internal battery problem to deal with, has rechargeble battery backup if you lose your electrical, weighs about 1/2 and is 1/2 the depth of the III so it can be mounted on the front of the panel, and requires only 20% of the watts of the III. Also, the price is only $875 Vs $2100 at Vans. K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now. PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:37 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: amateur air mobile 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:19 AM 10/29/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill > > >George Neal E Capt AU/PC wrote: > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: George Neal E Capt AU/PC > > > > > Trailing wire...hmmmm > > CQDX CQDX CQDX...N8ZG airborne mobile > > Nothing like combining hobbies! > > > > Neal:) > > What, don't you carry your amateur handheld with >you in the plane now? A mile high is an awesome >antenna location for 2m and 73cm... *grin* >I haven't tried shortwave, though. I helped a Long-Ez owner in Brazil install an HF transceiver for over the ocean hops . . . his back seat was an aux fuel tank. He used it for both aviation contact and entertainment on the ham bands. I've used my 2m hand held from the cockpit. Soon learned that you couldn't work repeaters from 10,000 feet. You hit to many machines at once. I'd put out a call on a repeater's input frequency and told prospective listeners that I'd listen and conduct the conversation on another simplex/direct frequency. It wasn't uncommon to have a conversation with someone over 100 miles away. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:43 AM PST US From: Richard Riley Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Quality Stick Grips reflector@tvbf.org, aeroelectric-list@matronics.com <20041029141032.14109.qmail@web90010.mail.scd.yahoo.com> 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Riley At 07:10 AM 10/29/04, "Jim, Jim Monti, Monti" wrote: >Morning Richard, > >Sorry for the delay in replying. I was off doing other >things and not looking at anything on Yahoo for a >while.. That's fine, I'll post my reply to the email sites to make sure you get it. >--- Richard Riley wrote: > > At 05:42 AM 10/5/04, you wrote: > > >Morning Richard, > > > > > >I am an outside observer of some emails to a couple > > >of different sites. > > > > > >I have a question. > > > > > >Where did you get your information about the > > >Infinity Aerospace Grips? > > > > > >As an engineer and long time private pilot, and > > >there is nothing else on the market for the price, > > >and quality that fits the capabilities of the > > >Infinity Aerospace grip. > > > > > >Would like to hear your comments. > > > > > >Howard > > > > I've dealt with him - and with people who've dealt > > with him - for 12 > > years. Though I agree with you that the grips are > > OK, they're hardly the only thing out there. CH > > makes a good one for less. > >If you are sitting still, on the ground, the switches >in a CH grip may be alright, but you WANT more force >required if you are bouncing around in turbulence >(sp).... You NEED a very noticeable tactile response >out of the switch and the CH switches AREN'T good for >that. The CH stick I have is exactly that. The switches aren't the same as the computer joystick, their activation force is probably a pound or so. In the same range as the Infinity stick. > > Automatic Flagman makes a very good one for a little > > more (they changed their name, I can't remember what > > the new one is, something like Stick Grips Inc.) > >Sorry a toy grip isn't what I want to put my life on. The Flagman grip is anything but a toy. Aircraft Spruce has them in 2 and 4 switch models, $130 and $185. The sample I saw was covered in beautifully sewn molded leather. They were originally made for the cropdusting industry, where you spend 12 hours a day with the stick grip in your hand. That's what the "flagman" refers to. > > I was given one of his grips and took it apart. > > It's fine, but nothing special. The switches are > > better than the ones on computer joysticks but > > they're all available from Mouser or Digikey. > >Yes and your point..... Digikey and the like are sites >for small quantities of components. Unless you are >buying 500K quantities, the switch MFGRs won't give >you good prices or the time of day.... I have used >Digikey for small quantities for years. Exactly. If, for example, you're buying a Thrustmaster Fighter-X grip, and changing out the 5 switches so they're higher force, it will cost all of $10 for the stick and $20 for the switches. Yes, it will take an evening's work to retrofit them (hint - for drilling out the holes where the switch caps go, a unibit is very handy) but we're building our own AIRPLANES from scratch. A couple of hours work on a stick grip is hardly challenging. If I can buy all the switches I need form Digikey for a price that's low, I don't care if I can talk to the manufacturers or not. That's why stocking distributors exist. > > Or if you keep your eyes open, you can buy a real > > B-8 grip for less than he > > charges. I got a grip from an Apache helicopter for > > $100. > >And it was worn out, and you have to expend your time >and money to repair it. Actually, no, it wasn't. Certainly the helicopter it was from had to have been scrap, but the grip itself had seen very little use. It's all a matter of shopping around and finding what's right for you. I had to expend time to adapt it, but I would have had to do the same thing with an Infinity grip - as you know, all homebuilts are different, and no matter what grip you use you'll have to make it work with a homebuilt. >My point is... it is one thing to try and save money, >but safety and functionality are FIRST. > >I have consulted as a mechanical engineer in the >consumer market, military market, and commercial >market for years (like 25 year), and you don't want a >toy switch being the failure point one day when you >life might depend on it. So, don't use toy switches. If you're adapting from a computer joystick, use switches from Digikey. Pick what activation force you want, what cap size and color, and install them. You'll have a stick that's better than Infinity's, at a lower price, and the satisfaction of knowing that you did it yourself. If you want real, genuine brand new NASA/Milspec switches and you're willing to pay for them, you can get them (I use Flame Enterprises, www.flamecorp.com). If you want commercial grade switches that are good for 100,000 cycles, use Mouser. In either case, for heaven's sake don't wire your airplane so that if a single switch on your joystick fails you're going to crash. You can safely finish a flight without a push to talk button, or an ident button, or a starter, or whatever else you're going to put on a stick. Your trim forces shouldn't be so strong that you can't survive runaway trim. If something can fail, 1) examine the consequences of that failure 2) minimize the risk and 3) build in redundancy. My design goal is that no single failure in ANY system is non-survivable. (I can't quite get there - the primary wing carry-through structure always seems to be a single point failure.) But I always have 2 layers of redundancy in my electrical system. A switch failing in my joystick doesn't qualify as an emergency, much less immediate flaming death. If it did, I would never use a joystick that cost as little as the Infinity. My life is worth more than that. > > If you just want to save money, buy a Thrustmaster > > "Top Gun" computer joystick on Ebay > > for $10 and change the push switches for $5 each. > > Leave the hat switch, > > it's the same as the one Infinity uses. > >NO it's not the same one, I know.... It may not be today, but 4 years ago I took them both apart. The hat switches had the same part number stamped on the side. It's not like there's another large demand elsewhere for inexpensive 4-way hat switches shaped like that. There are the milspec switches, but they run $50-100. http://www.ottoeng.com/control/togglemt_t4.htm. Neither Thrustmaster or Infinity is using those. Remember, the "toy" switches are spec'ed for 10 time the use of a milspec switch - 1 million cycles for the toy, 100,000 for the millspec. The toy sees more use in an hour killing space aliens than an aircraft trim switch will see in it's lifetime. > > The Thrustmaster grips are nice > > because they have soft rubber inserts where you > > grip, and come in a large and small size. > >Do you have any idea what the cost of injection >molding tools are...... apparently not... The tools >for one grip (2 halves) in good steel, will be $15K to >$20K. The cost of those tools are included in the >first 4K sets of "sold" sets, they aren't freebies. SO >there is a cost of custom plastics that the end user >is helping to pat for. Um.... So? The point is I can get a very nice stick grip, with rubber inserts in the side, for about $10 on Ebay. $15 if you include shipping. Given that fact, it doesn't matter to me how much the tooling is - I'm sure given their volumes that CH and Thrustmaster are spending a lot more on their tooling than Jim is. If Jim has to amortize the cost of his tooling over a smaller production run, that's his problem, not his customer's. If there's a grip that serves the purpose, adapted from a much larger run and therefor cheaper, the customer is the one that should make the decision and get the benefit. Jim isn't guaranteed a profit. If there's a better choice out there, people will take it. Welcome to the miracle that is the free market. Thank goodness Nippondenso makes millions of alternators per year. If we had to pay for the development costs for alternators on a volume of 1000 homebuilt aircraft per year, they'd be $5,000 each. > > Actually, his early grips were surplus cast > > urethane foam he bought from Thrustmaster. > > I know because I bought some too, and they > > told me. > >I was trying to save money back then. You were? Or Jim was? I'm confused. Are you in business with him? Or is "Howard" Jim himself? >I place a value on my time. I consult for $65/hr doing >plastics design (hold several patents for my designs). >I used to do home additions at one time in my life for >a couple of years at $20/hr, Everyone building a homebuilt aircraft makes a similar calculation. We have a source of income, or we couldn't afford the expensive bits. At the same time, we've decided that we want to do most or all of the work ourselves, rather than paying someone else to do it. >I won't burn my time and energy trying to save a few >dollars, because my time is more valuable than that. So why are you building your own airplane? >My safety in flight is more valuable than that. If you don't think that something you build is as safe or safer than something you buy, why are you building your own airplane? >If you want to use a toy to affect your safety while >flying, that is your choice. 1) I'm not using toy switches - my grip is Milspec, from an AH-64. 2) Toy switches are made to see a LOT of use. 3) Someone who builds or adapts their own grip doesn't have to use toy switches, he can buy commercial or milspec grade switches easily. >I don't think redoing another assembly is good use of >my time. Then you are probably better off buying a production airplane. "Redoing another assembly" is certainly faster than building complex parts from scratch. >Have a nice day. > >Howard And you as well. Richard ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Harbor Freight has $20 Battery Maintainer 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/HF_Battery_Maintainer.jpg I've had one a couple of days playing with it. It looks good. It sells for 2/3 to 1/2 similar products. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------------- < Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition > < of man. Advances which permit this norm to be > < exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the > < work of an extremely small minority, frequently > < despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed > < by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny > < minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes > < happens) is driven out of a society, the people > < then slip back into abject poverty. > < > < This is known as "bad luck". > < -Lazarus Long- > <------------------------------------------------------> http://www.aeroelectric.com --- ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:57 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dynon update From: Gerry Holland --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland Mike Hi! > a quick search of the RV-List will reveal some details here. > I have 30 emails from rv'ers who experience this problem. It is my > personal opinion that it is a fleet wide problem. Not installation, not > unique to a device. I know of 6 personally in my home town alone with > this problem. I can readily reproduce it. I was the first to do so. We > have been working different software resolutions. Dynon can now readily > reproduce the problem as well. Many thanks for this feedback. Will keep an eye on the developments. Gerry ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:03 AM PST US From: WRBYARS@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Harbor Freight has $20 Battery Maintainer 0.00 FORGED_... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: WRBYARS@aol.com I heard about "battery desulfators" a couple of years ago so did some research on them and found that they had positive benefits. I bought one for under $75 bucks and started testing it on all the old "dead" batteries that I could find, low and behold, it worked. I've been using it on all our cars, trucks, motorcycles and airplane and after "rejuvenating " the battery we would use the automatic trickle charge function to maintain the charge. I'm very impressed with this little unit and recommend it to anyone that wants to save their batteries from dying prematurely. Bill ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:47:25 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Harbor Freight has $20 Battery Maintainer 0.00 FORGED_... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 10/29/2004 12:43:56 PM Central Standard Time, WRBYARS@aol.com writes: I heard about "battery desulfators" a couple of years ago so did some research on them and found that they had positive benefits. I bought one for under $75 bucks and started testing it on all the old "dead" batteries that I could find, low and behold, it worked. I've been using it on all our cars, trucks, motorcycles and airplane and after "rejuvenating " the battery we would use the automatic trickle charge function to maintain the charge. I'm very impressed with this little unit and recommend it to anyone that wants to save their batteries from dying prematurely. Bill Good Morning Bill, Could you supply a manufacturer, model and source? Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:10 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Dynon update From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." Gerry I can tell you one I know for sure is Mike Stewart from Team RV, he has a write up on it. Hope this helps Dan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gerry Holland Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dynon update --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland --> Larry Hi > That is one big disappointment with the problems many are > experiencing with the attitude display drifting 10-15 degrees. I just > hope someone does not get killed before they decide to make *IT* their priority. What is the basis for stating 'many'. Who is assembling this vast number of complainants as inferred by you above. Two things: How many? Where can they be found registered? BTW. The Dynon is a non-IFR certified device, well here in Europe at least. That doesn't mean it shouldn't work OK but in the same light peddling information on poor or inadequate performance needs facts too. Can we have them other than the one or two RV Builders who have experienced an 'occurrence'. I'm not challenging you. Would just like facts rather than an unsubstantiated statement. I use a Dynon! Regards Gerry Europa 384 G-FIZY Trigear with Rotax 912 and Arplast CS Prop. Dynon EFIS, KMD 150, Icom A-200 and SL70 Transponder. PSS AoA Fitted. http://www.g-fizy.com Mobile: +44 7808 402404 WebFax: +44 870 7059985 gnholland@onetel.com == == == == ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:44 AM PST US From: Dj Merrill Received": contains.a.forged.HELO@matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: amateur air mobile 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > It wasn't uncommon to have a conversation with someone over > 100 miles away. That's awesome... :-) -Dj ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:36:25 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dynon update --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" FYI, I just installed Dynon's latest beta OS, 1.9.10, and so far it's working perfectly. I've only flown it once (about to fly it again in a few minutes) but so far so good. I reserve the right to update this later if the symptoms show up again... The guys at Dynon mentioned that if this latest OS doesn't fix the issue (which it apparently has in other installations as well), then they asked me to do more data logging through the 2nd serial port. If analyzing the data doesn't turn anything up, they mentioned the possibility of sending somebody out to fly with me to see and evaluate the issue more closely. Anyway, like I said things look much better as of 1.9.10. But if it's not, the company is definitely making it a priority to resolve the issue. I have faith in these guys. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lloyd, Daniel R." Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Dynon update > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." > > Gerry > I can tell you one I know for sure is Mike Stewart from Team RV, he has > a write up on it. > Hope this helps > Dan > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gerry > Holland > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dynon update > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland > --> > > Larry Hi > > > That is one big disappointment with the problems many are > > experiencing with the attitude display drifting 10-15 degrees. I just > > > hope someone does not get killed before they decide to make *IT* their > priority. > > What is the basis for stating 'many'. Who is assembling this vast number > of complainants as inferred by you above. > > Two things: > > How many? > > Where can they be found registered? > > BTW. The Dynon is a non-IFR certified device, well here in Europe at > least. > That doesn't mean it shouldn't work OK but in the same light peddling > information on poor or inadequate performance needs facts too. Can we > have them other than the one or two RV Builders who have experienced an > 'occurrence'. > > I'm not challenging you. Would just like facts rather than an > unsubstantiated statement. > > I use a Dynon! > > Regards > > Gerry > > Europa 384 G-FIZY > Trigear with Rotax 912 and Arplast CS Prop. > Dynon EFIS, KMD 150, Icom A-200 and SL70 Transponder. > PSS AoA Fitted. > > http://www.g-fizy.com > Mobile: +44 7808 402404 > WebFax: +44 870 7059985 > gnholland@onetel.com > > > == > == > == > == > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:10 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Disappearing Motorcycles and Airplanes 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: echristley@nc.rr.com > > >> >> Did you know that electrical systems were being > placed on airplanes >> as early as 1915? Less than 10 years after the > Brothers sold the >> Army its first airplane, they were running radio > transmitters into >> trailing wire antennas powered by wind driven > generators? >> >> Bob . . . >> > > Say, WHAT?! > > Was it actual voice systems or morse code? Code. They were spark transmitters but I believe they used vacuum-tube-based receivers. Tube-based CW transmitters didn't show up really until the end of WW-I. Voice transmission started a few years later. Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:55 PM PST US From: George Neal E Capt AU/PC Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: HF and trailing wire antennas --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: George Neal E Capt AU/PC Brian - I haven't seen you in my shop, but now I know who's been reading my notes and leaving cookie crumbs on the bench. N8ZG's panel *will* contain a 706. 73... neal (the Icom IC-706mkIIg comes to mind here). This strikes me as a good thing as a potential backup. Brian Lloyd ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:09 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dynon update From: Gerry Holland --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland Dan Hi! > I can tell you one I know for sure is Mike Stewart from Team RV, he has > a write up on it. Thanks for feedback and direction. Regards Gerry do not archive ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:06:17 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Harbor Freight has $20 Battery Maintainer 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Oct 29, 2004, at 12:58 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > I've had one a couple of days playing with it. It looks good. > It sells for 2/3 to 1/2 similar products. > > > Bob . . . > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > < Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition > > < of man. Advances which permit this norm to be > > < exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the > > < work of an extremely small minority, frequently > > < despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed > > < by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny > > < minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes > > < happens) is driven out of a society, the people > > < then slip back into abject poverty. > > < > > < This is known as "bad luck". > > < -Lazarus Long- > > <------------------------------------------------------> > http://www.aeroelectric.com Ah Bob, a man who quotes Heinlein is a man after my own heart. Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. --Lazarus Long (AKA Robert A. Heinlein) ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:44 PM PST US From: Joe Dubner Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: amateur air mobile --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joe Dubner On 29-Oct-04 09:07 Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > I helped a Long-Ez owner in Brazil install an HF transceiver > for over the ocean hops . . . his back seat was an aux fuel > tank. He used it for both aviation contact and entertainment > on the ham bands. Bob, Two questions, please . . . What did he use for an antenna? I've had an Icom IC-706 in my Long-EZ for the past year for 2m FM and entertainment but haven't solved the HF antenna dilemma yet. How does he deal with the EMI situation running 100W? My meager 10W of RF on 146 MHz does a number on the engine gauges, particularly those that run unshielded wire to their senders. Key the mic and pick up 500 RPM -- best thing since nitrous oxide :-) (For those not familiar with the Long-EZ, it uses composite construction with a rear-mounted engine that requires 10 - 12 feet of connecting wire to reach the instrument panel. On my airplane the 2m antenna is a vertical dipole in one winglet, the aircraft comm antenna is another vertical dipole in the other winglet, and the VOR antenna (which I no longer use) is a horizontal dipole in the canard.) Thanks and 73, Joe, K7JD Long-EZ 821RP Clarkston, WA ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:01:53 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: HF and trailing wire antennas --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Oct 29, 2004, at 3:00 PM, George Neal E Capt AU/PC wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: George Neal E Capt AU/PC > > > > Brian - > I haven't seen you in my shop, but now I know who's been reading my > notes > and leaving cookie crumbs on the bench. Oreos, right? > N8ZG's panel *will* contain a 706. > 73... neal Good idea. I recommend the SGC-231 tuner. It works well with the '706, has very wide coverage and matching range, and is light and compact. 73 de Brian, WB6RQN Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:59 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: amateur air mobile --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Oct 29, 2004, at 3:34 PM, Joe Dubner wrote: > What did he use for an antenna? I've had an Icom IC-706 in my Long-EZ > for the past year for 2m FM and entertainment but haven't solved the HF > antenna dilemma yet. You need some sort of counterpoise to make it work. A piece of wire the same length as the radiator should work reasonably well. If you can run one down one wing and one down the other it may work. In a conventional planform you can run from the VS out to each wingtip. > How does he deal with the EMI situation running 100W? My meager 10W of > RF on 146 MHz does a number on the engine gauges, particularly those > that run unshielded wire to their senders. Key the mic and pick up 500 > RPM -- best thing since nitrous oxide :-) This is more frequency dependent than power dependent. Differing frequencies will produce differing results but all unshielded and unbypassed wiring will pick up some RF. Put some ferrite beads on the wiring and add small bypass caps to ground at the instrument. Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 There is a time to laud one's country and a time to protest. A good citizen is prepared to do either as the need arises. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:46 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Harbor Freight has $20 Battery Maintainer 0.00 FORGED_... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 10/29/04 2:06:57 PM Central Daylight Time, brianl@lloyd.com writes: > A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, > butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance > accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, > give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new > problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight > efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. >>>>>>>>> ...or build an airplane! GROK! Mark ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:39 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: $20 Battery Maintainer 0.01 SUBJ_DOLLARS Subject starts with dollar amount 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO 1.40 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX Date: is 96 hours or more after Received: date --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:47 PM 10/29/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com > > >In a message dated 10/29/2004 12:43:56 PM Central Standard Time, >WRBYARS@aol.com writes: > >I heard about "battery desulfators" a couple of years ago so did some >research on them and found that they had positive benefits. >I bought one for under $75 bucks and started testing it on all the old >"dead" batteries that I could find, low and behold, it worked. >I've been using it on all our cars, trucks, motorcycles and airplane and >after "rejuvenating " the battery we would use the automatic trickle charge >function to maintain the charge. I'm very impressed with this little unit >and >recommend it to anyone that wants to save their batteries from dying >prematurely. > >Bill > > >Good Morning Bill, > >Could you supply a manufacturer, model and source? During my RAC sponsored battery study earlier this year I asked about this technology at both Hawker and Concord. The Hawker guy (marketing type) didn't have an opinion and was not familiar with them. Concord guy (vp of marketing but technically very savy guy) said they tried on an old battery that they ran through a couple of discharge-recharge cycles and recovered a lot of the battery's capacity . . . but repeated the experiment on a similar battery with similar results but without the "de-sulfator" . . . I have one that I purchased and used it on a barely functional battery pulled from my father-in-law's car. After a week .1C charge/ 1C discharge cycles, I measured an increase in capacity from about 10 a.h. (barely started the car) to about 16 a.h. Cranking current test values rose moderately from about 150A to 220A. I wouldn't say these critters will RECOVER a battery. I just haven't had time to set up the experiment to compare the life of two new batteries run on the same cycles but with de-sulfator installed on one battery. It's on the list of things to do. In the mean time, every battery manufacturer I talked to was unanimous in their endorsement of battery maintainers . . . ESPECIALLLY for flooded batteries. I use the Battery Minders here in the shop. I picked up the Harbor Freight product to check it out. I'm running a battery down now and will put a data acquisition system on it to see how it compares with the Battery Minder. Anyone wanting to diddle with the desulfators can do a Google search and get a TON of data on products to purchase and projects to build. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:57 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: line of sight communication 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO 1.40 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX Date: is 96 hours or more after Received: date --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:22 PM 10/29/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill > > >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > It wasn't uncommon to have a conversation with someone over > > 100 miles away. > > That's awesome... :-) If you do the path-loss calculation for VHF comm frequencies you'll find that 1 watt of transmitter is good for about 1200 miles to a run-of-the-mill receiver and dipole antennas. If you can see 'em you can talk to them. I recall an experiment many moons ago (about 1970 I think) where a couple of guys hauled a repeater up in a 172 to 12,000 feet or so. For duration of fuel aboard, the distances over which folks communicated with each other were pretty spectacular. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 03:43:32 PM PST US From: "Gary Craze" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: line of sight communication 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO 1.40 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX Date: is 96 hours or more after Received: date --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Craze" Our Ham club has both a 2M and 70cm voice repeater tied into a telephone autopatch. With my 2M handheld and a spare comm antenna in our old Archer, I use to be able to hit the repeater and make a good quality phone call from 75-80 miles away. Useful when coming home from a cross country and calling the wife. -Gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: AeroElectric-List: line of sight communication 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO 1.40 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX Date: is 96 hours or more after Received: date --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" --> At 02:22 PM 10/29/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill > > >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > It wasn't uncommon to have a conversation with someone over > > 100 miles away. > > That's awesome... :-) If you do the path-loss calculation for VHF comm frequencies you'll find that 1 watt of transmitter is good for about 1200 miles to a run-of-the-mill receiver and dipole antennas. If you can see 'em you can talk to them. I recall an experiment many moons ago (about 1970 I think) where a couple of guys hauled a repeater up in a 172 to 12,000 feet or so. For duration of fuel aboard, the distances over which folks communicated with each other were pretty spectacular. Bob . . . --- == == == == ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:18 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: line of sight communication 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO 1.40 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX Date: is 96 hours or more after Received: date --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: In 1960 I was flying L-19s in the Army and our UHF transmitters had 1/8th of a watt output! No problem over amazingly long distances... Tom -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: AeroElectric-List: line of sight communication 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO 1.40 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:22 PM 10/29/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill > > >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > It wasn't uncommon to have a conversation with someone over > > 100 miles away. > > That's awesome... :-) If you do the path-loss calculation for VHF comm frequencies you'll find that 1 watt of transmitter is good for about 1200 miles to a run-of-the-mill receiver and dipole antennas. If you can see 'em you can talk to them. I recall an experiment many moons ago (about 1970 I think) where a couple of guys hauled a repeater up in a 172 to 12,000 feet or so. For duration of fuel aboard, the distances over which folks communicated with each other were pretty spectacular. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:00 PM PST US From: dsvs@comcast.net Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: $20 Battery Maintainer 0.01 SUBJ_DOLLARS Subject starts with dollar amount 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO 1.40 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX Date: is 96 hours or more after Received: date --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: dsvs@comcast.net Bob, The BatteryMinder adds claim the unit does desulfation. Is this a different process than the desulfators you are refering to? Does your BatteryMinder have a button that says desulfation? Thanks. Don -------------- Original message -------------- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > At 01:47 PM 10/29/2004 -0400, you wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com > > > > > >In a message dated 10/29/2004 12:43:56 PM Central Standard Time, > >WRBYARS@aol.com writes: > > > >I heard about "battery desulfators" a couple of years ago so did some > >research on them and found that they had positive benefits. > >I bought one for under $75 bucks and started testing it on all the old > >"dead" batteries that I could find, low and behold, it worked. > >I've been using it on all our cars, trucks, motorcycles and airplane and > >after "rejuvenating " the battery we would use the automatic trickle charge > >function to maintain the charge. I'm very impressed with this little unit > >and > >recommend it to anyone that wants to save their batteries from dying > >prematurely. > > > >Bill > > > > > >Good Morning Bill, > > > >Could you supply a manufacturer, model and source? > > > During my RAC sponsored battery study earlier this year > I asked about this technology at both Hawker and Concord. > The Hawker guy (marketing type) didn't have an opinion > and was not familiar with them. Concord guy (vp of marketing > but technically very savy guy) said they tried on an old > battery that they ran through a couple of discharge-recharge > cycles and recovered a lot of the battery's capacity . . . > but repeated the experiment on a similar battery with similar > results but without the "de-sulfator" . . . I have one that > I purchased and used it on a barely functional battery pulled > from my father-in-law's car. After a week .1C charge/ 1C discharge > cycles, I measured an increase in capacity from about 10 a.h. > (barely started the car) to about 16 a.h. Cranking current test > values rose moderately from about 150A to 220A. > > I wouldn't say these critters will RECOVER a battery. I just > haven't had time to set up the experiment to compare the life > of two new batteries run on the same cycles but with de-sulfator > installed on one battery. It's on the list of things to do. > > In the mean time, every battery manufacturer I talked to was > unanimous in their endorsement of battery maintainers . . . > ESPECIALLLY for flooded batteries. I use the Battery Minders > here in the shop. I picked up the Harbor Freight product to > check it out. I'm running a battery down now and will put a > data acquisition system on it to see how it compares with > the Battery Minder. > > Anyone wanting to diddle with the desulfators can do a > Google search and get a TON of data on products to purchase > and projects to build. > > Bob . . . > > > --- > > > > > > Bob, The BatteryMinder adds claimthe unit does desulfation. Is this a different process than the desulfators you are refering to? Does your BatteryMinder have a button that says desulfation? Thanks. Don -------------- Original message -------------- -- AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:47 PM 10/29/2004 -0400, you wrote: -- AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 10/29/2004 12:43:56 PM Central Standard Time, WRBYARS@aol.com writes: I heard about "battery desulfators" a couple of years ago so did some research on them and found that they had positive benefits. I bought one for under $75 bucks and started testing it on all the old "dead" batteries that I could find, low and behold, it worked. I've been using it on all our cars, trucks, motorcycles and airplane and after "rejuvenating " the bat tery we would use the automatic trickle charge function to maintain the charge. I'm very impressed with this little unit and recommend it to anyone that wants to save their batteries from dying prematurely. Bill Good Morning Bill, Could you supply a manufacturer, model and source? During my RAC sponsored battery study earlier this year I asked about this technology at both Hawker and Concord. The Hawker guy (marketing type) didn't have an opinion and was not familiar with them. Concord guy (vp of marketing but technically very savy guy) said they tried on an old battery that they ran through a couple of discharge-recharge cycles and recovered a lot of the battery's capacity . . . but repeated the experiment on a similar battery with similar < BR> results but without the "de-sulfator" . . . I have one that I purchased and used it on a barely functional battery pulled from my father-in-law's car. After a week .1C charge/ 1C discharge cycles, I measured an increase in capacity from about 10 a.h. (barely started the car) to about 16 a.h. Cranking current test values rose moderately from about 150A to 220A. I wouldn't say these critters will RECOVER a battery. I just haven't had time to set up the experiment to compare the life of two new batteries run on the same cycles but with de-sulfator installed on one battery. It's on the list of things to do. In the mean time, every battery manufacturer I talked to was unanimous in their endorsement of battery maintainers . . . ESPECIALLLY for flooded batteries. I use the Battery Minders here in the shop. I picked up the Harbor Freight prod uct to check it out. I'm running a battery down now and will put a data acquisition system on it to see how it compares with the Battery Minder. Anyone wanting to diddle with the desulfators can do a Google search and get a TON of data on products to purchase and projects to build. Bob . . . --- ============================== ====================== ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:37 PM PST US From: Dj Merrill Received": contains.a.forged.HELO.1.40.DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX.Date:is.96.hours.or.more.after.Received:date@matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: line of sight communication 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO 1.40 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX Date: is 96 hours or more after Received: date --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > If you do the path-loss calculation for VHF comm frequencies > you'll find that 1 watt of transmitter is good for about 1200 > miles to a run-of-the-mill receiver and dipole antennas. If you > can see 'em you can talk to them. > > > > Different frequencies, but have you ever tried moon bounce? -Dj ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:48 PM PST US From: Brian Lloyd Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: line of sight communication --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd On Oct 29, 2008, at 6:16 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >>> It wasn't uncommon to have a conversation with someone over >>> 100 miles away. >> >> That's awesome... :-) > > > If you do the path-loss calculation for VHF comm frequencies > you'll find that 1 watt of transmitter is good for about 1200 > miles to a run-of-the-mill receiver and dipole antennas. If you > can see 'em you can talk to them. > > I recall an experiment many moons ago (about 1970 I think) > where a couple of guys hauled a repeater up in a 172 to 12,000 > feet or so. For duration of fuel aboard, the distances over which > folks communicated with each other were pretty spectacular. The distance to the horizon is given by the following formula: D = 1.17 * sqrt( He ) D = distant to the horizon in nm He = height of eye in feet. So, for an aircraft at 12,000' AGL the distance to the horizon is 128 nm. For two aircraft at 12000' AGL they will have LoS to 256 mi. And I know that there is going to be a problem with the Fresnel zone somewhere in there but this is good enough for a start. Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201 +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802 I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:07 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Early Aviation Radios 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO 1.40 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX Date: is 96 hours or more after Received: date --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:00 PM 10/29/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: echristley@nc.rr.com > > > > > >> > >> Did you know that electrical systems were being > > placed on airplanes > >> as early as 1915? Less than 10 years after the > > Brothers sold the > >> Army its first airplane, they were running radio > > transmitters into > >> trailing wire antennas powered by wind driven > > generators? > >> > >> Bob . . . > >> > > > > Say, WHAT?! > > > > Was it actual voice systems or morse code? > >Code. They were spark transmitters but I believe they used >vacuum-tube-based receivers. Tube-based CW transmitters didn't show up >really until the end of WW-I. Voice transmission started a few years >later. The 1919 airborne radios were indeed CW transmitters only. The reference I found talked about a 25 mile range. I'm pretty sure these would have been vacuum tube. Although the DH5 was a honk'n big airplane for the time, a wind driven generator big enough to spin up a spark rig would have really draggy and the equipment would have been REALLY heavy. This article: http://earlyradiohistory.us/sec011.htm speaks to vacuum tube transmitters as laboratory curiosities as early as 1914. Marconi demonstrated voice transmissions with vacuum tubes in 1915 http://earlyradiohistory.us/1915mwt.htm and this music transmission in 1916 http://earlyradiohistory.us/1916powr.htm Here's a really cool collection of articles http://earlyradiohistory.us/ I'm still looking for how they developed high voltage for the tubes . . . Some ol' gray beards at RAC suggested dual commutator generators. Armatures like the old dynamotors have two windings. A low voltage winding that was regulated for filaments, and a second winding with commutator on other end of stack for high voltage. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: amateur air mobile --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:34 PM 10/29/2004 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joe Dubner > >On 29-Oct-04 09:07 Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > I helped a Long-Ez owner in Brazil install an HF transceiver > > for over the ocean hops . . . his back seat was an aux fuel > > tank. He used it for both aviation contact and entertainment > > on the ham bands. > >Bob, > >Two questions, please . . . > >What did he use for an antenna? I've had an Icom IC-706 in my Long-EZ >for the past year for 2m FM and entertainment but haven't solved the HF >antenna dilemma yet. He ran a wire from canard center out to tip and then back to the vertical fin tip on one wing and then back to fuselage just behind canopy. This was fabricated from copperweld and VERY stout mounting hardware . . . he was really nervous about some part of it getting loose and tangled in prop. >How does he deal with the EMI situation running 100W? My meager 10W of >RF on 146 MHz does a number on the engine gauges, particularly those >that run unshielded wire to their senders. Key the mic and pick up 500 >RPM -- best thing since nitrous oxide :-) He knew it was happening and simply avoided reading any instruments while talking. >(For those not familiar with the Long-EZ, it uses composite construction >with a rear-mounted engine that requires 10 - 12 feet of connecting wire >to reach the instrument panel. On my airplane the 2m antenna is a >vertical dipole in one winglet, the aircraft comm antenna is another >vertical dipole in the other winglet, and the VOR antenna (which I no >longer use) is a horizontal dipole in the canard.) The ship's ground system was used as the 'counterpoise" for the HF antenna system. Automatic antenna tuner was tucked away in front of ship's battery in nose. Radio was the a little Icom, I don't recall the model number now. It was the first of the cigar-box sized hf transceivers available about 10 years ago. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:31 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Line of sight communication 0.00 FORGED_RCVD_HELO Received: contains a forged HELO 1.40 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX Date: is 96 hours or more after Received: date --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:28 PM 10/29/2004 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill > > >Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > > > > If you do the path-loss calculation for VHF comm frequencies > > you'll find that 1 watt of transmitter is good for about 1200 > > miles to a run-of-the-mill receiver and dipole antennas. If you > > can see 'em you can talk to them. > > > > > > > > > > Different frequencies, but have you ever tried moon bounce? A friend of mind was into that about 1975. Had a big dish in the back yard. Interesting stuff but beyond my budget at the time. Bob . . . --- ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:21 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: $20 Battery Maintainer --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:47 PM 10/29/2004 +0000, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: dsvs@comcast.net > >Bob, >The BatteryMinder adds claim the unit does desulfation. Is this a >different process than the desulfators you are refering to? Does your >BatteryMinder have a button that says desulfation? Thanks. Don No, the ones I buy are straight programmed power supplies for charging. They have some more recent additions that include the pulse generator for desulfation and they're about $30 more expensive. Bob . . . ---