Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:59 AM - Chapter 7 - Electrical System Instrumentation (Mickey Coggins)
2. 05:47 AM - Re: Chapter 7 - Electrical System Instrumentation (Ken)
3. 06:05 AM - Re: Chapter 7 - Electrical System Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net (Trampas)
4. 07:03 AM - Re: Chapter 7 - Electrical System Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net (AI Nut)
5. 07:04 AM - Re: Chapter 7 - Electrical System (Mickey Coggins)
6. 08:30 AM - Re:Another bad story (Johnny Johnson)
7. 09:34 AM - Re: Chapter 7 - Electrical System Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net (Trampas)
8. 10:09 AM - Re: Re:Another bad story (Mickey Coggins)
9. 01:08 PM - Re: Chapter 7 - Electrical System (Charlie Kuss)
10. 02:40 PM - Re: Another bad story. (Dan O'Brien)
11. 03:02 PM - Re: Chapter 7 - Electrical System (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 03:02 PM - Re: Chapter 7 - Electrical System Instrumentation (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 03:41 PM - Re: Another bad story (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Chapter 7 - Electrical System Instrumentation |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Hi,
What is the current state of the art for measuring
battery and alternator voltage and current, both
in terms of technique and products?
I've read chapter 7, and I think I understand the
theory, and I'd like to put it to practice. My chapter 7
dates from 1992. I think this is the current version.
My system will be like Figure 17-6. I see most
of the Z figures show a loadmeter for each alternator,
but none for the batteries. Why is this?
The Z figures show the use of a shunt to measure load.
Are Hall Effect systems not preferred yet?
Are the typical volt meters included with electronic
instruments (Grand Rapids EIS4000, for example) adequate
for measuring bus voltage?
Many thanks for the info.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Chapter 7 - Electrical System Instrumentation |
clamav-milter version 0.80j
on juliet.albedo.net
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
My chapter 7 also says 1992.
If you put a shunt on the battery then it has to be large enough to
handle a couple of hundred cranking amps which means not very good
resolution down at a couple of amps of battery charging current. It
seems that is less of a problem with at least some Hall Effect sensors
that are able to withstand large starting overloads. I think a voltmeter
with low voltage warning is adequate. Either will indicate whether the
battery is charging or discharging but the voltmeter is useful as an
early warning for monitoring the voltage regulator. The EIS hall sensor
is a bit pricey at $60. but easier to install than a shunt.
My EIS unit agrees within 0.2 volt of my digital multimeter and reads to
1/10 of a volt so I consider it as good as anything for practical purposes.
Ken
Mickey Coggins wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>Hi,
>
>What is the current state of the art for measuring
>battery and alternator voltage and current, both
>in terms of technique and products?
>
>I've read chapter 7, and I think I understand the
>theory, and I'd like to put it to practice. My chapter 7
>dates from 1992. I think this is the current version.
>
>My system will be like Figure 17-6. I see most
>of the Z figures show a loadmeter for each alternator,
>but none for the batteries. Why is this?
>
>The Z figures show the use of a shunt to measure load.
>Are Hall Effect systems not preferred yet?
>
>Are the typical volt meters included with electronic
>instruments (Grand Rapids EIS4000, for example) adequate
>for measuring bus voltage?
>
>Many thanks for the info.
>
>--
>Mickey Coggins
>http://www.rv8.ch/
>#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Chapter 7 - Electrical System Instrumentation |
clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
I have hall effect current sensors for about $30, if anyone wants one. I can
get them in 25, 50,100, and 200 Amp versions. I do not know about
compatibility with Grand Rapids EIS but they will work with Stern Tech's
engine monitors.
Regards,
Trampas
www.sterntech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chapter 7 - Electrical System
Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
My chapter 7 also says 1992.
If you put a shunt on the battery then it has to be large enough to
handle a couple of hundred cranking amps which means not very good
resolution down at a couple of amps of battery charging current. It
seems that is less of a problem with at least some Hall Effect sensors
that are able to withstand large starting overloads. I think a voltmeter
with low voltage warning is adequate. Either will indicate whether the
battery is charging or discharging but the voltmeter is useful as an
early warning for monitoring the voltage regulator. The EIS hall sensor
is a bit pricey at $60. but easier to install than a shunt.
My EIS unit agrees within 0.2 volt of my digital multimeter and reads to
1/10 of a volt so I consider it as good as anything for practical purposes.
Ken
Mickey Coggins wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
<mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>Hi,
>
>What is the current state of the art for measuring
>battery and alternator voltage and current, both
>in terms of technique and products?
>
>I've read chapter 7, and I think I understand the
>theory, and I'd like to put it to practice. My chapter 7
>dates from 1992. I think this is the current version.
>
>My system will be like Figure 17-6. I see most
>of the Z figures show a loadmeter for each alternator,
>but none for the batteries. Why is this?
>
>The Z figures show the use of a shunt to measure load.
>Are Hall Effect systems not preferred yet?
>
>Are the typical volt meters included with electronic
>instruments (Grand Rapids EIS4000, for example) adequate
>for measuring bus voltage?
>
>Many thanks for the info.
>
>--
>Mickey Coggins
>http://www.rv8.ch/
>#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Chapter 7 - Electrical System Instrumentation |
clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "AI Nut" <ainut@hiwaay.net>
Do you know what their output is? Hopefully, 0-5vdc? If so, I'll take a
couple!
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Chapter 7 - Electrical System
Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
>
> I have hall effect current sensors for about $30, if anyone wants one. I
can
> get them in 25, 50,100, and 200 Amp versions. I do not know about
> compatibility with Grand Rapids EIS but they will work with Stern Tech's
> engine monitors.
>
> Regards,
> Trampas
> www.sterntech.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chapter 7 - Electrical System
> Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
>
> My chapter 7 also says 1992.
>
> If you put a shunt on the battery then it has to be large enough to
> handle a couple of hundred cranking amps which means not very good
> resolution down at a couple of amps of battery charging current. It
> seems that is less of a problem with at least some Hall Effect sensors
> that are able to withstand large starting overloads. I think a voltmeter
> with low voltage warning is adequate. Either will indicate whether the
> battery is charging or discharging but the voltmeter is useful as an
> early warning for monitoring the voltage regulator. The EIS hall sensor
> is a bit pricey at $60. but easier to install than a shunt.
>
> My EIS unit agrees within 0.2 volt of my digital multimeter and reads to
> 1/10 of a volt so I consider it as good as anything for practical
purposes.
>
> Ken
>
> Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
> <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> >
> >Hi,
> >
> >What is the current state of the art for measuring
> >battery and alternator voltage and current, both
> >in terms of technique and products?
> >
> >I've read chapter 7, and I think I understand the
> >theory, and I'd like to put it to practice. My chapter 7
> >dates from 1992. I think this is the current version.
> >
> >My system will be like Figure 17-6. I see most
> >of the Z figures show a loadmeter for each alternator,
> >but none for the batteries. Why is this?
> >
> >The Z figures show the use of a shunt to measure load.
> >Are Hall Effect systems not preferred yet?
> >
> >Are the typical volt meters included with electronic
> >instruments (Grand Rapids EIS4000, for example) adequate
> >for measuring bus voltage?
> >
> >Many thanks for the info.
> >
> >--
> >Mickey Coggins
> >http://www.rv8.ch/
> >#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
> >
> >
Message 5
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| Subject: | Chapter 7 - Electrical System |
Instrumentation
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Instrumentation
Thanks for the info. Do people typically install one
of these sensors just after the alternator, as in the
Aeroelectric Connection Z figures?
Mickey
At 15:13 07-11-04, Trampas wrote:
-----Start of Original Message-----
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
>
>I have hall effect current sensors for about $30, if anyone wants one. I can
>get them in 25, 50,100, and 200 Amp versions. I do not know about
>compatibility with Grand Rapids EIS but they will work with Stern Tech's
>engine monitors.
>
>Regards,
>Trampas
>www.sterntech.com
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chapter 7 - Electrical System
>Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
>
> My chapter 7 also says 1992.
>
>If you put a shunt on the battery then it has to be large enough to
>handle a couple of hundred cranking amps which means not very good
>resolution down at a couple of amps of battery charging current. It
>seems that is less of a problem with at least some Hall Effect sensors
>that are able to withstand large starting overloads. I think a voltmeter
>with low voltage warning is adequate. Either will indicate whether the
>battery is charging or discharging but the voltmeter is useful as an
>early warning for monitoring the voltage regulator. The EIS hall sensor
>is a bit pricey at $60. but easier to install than a shunt.
>
>My EIS unit agrees within 0.2 volt of my digital multimeter and reads to
>1/10 of a volt so I consider it as good as anything for practical purposes.
>
>Ken
>
>Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
><mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>What is the current state of the art for measuring
>>battery and alternator voltage and current, both
>>in terms of technique and products?
>>
>>I've read chapter 7, and I think I understand the
>>theory, and I'd like to put it to practice. My chapter 7
>>dates from 1992. I think this is the current version.
>>
>>My system will be like Figure 17-6. I see most
>>of the Z figures show a loadmeter for each alternator,
>>but none for the batteries. Why is this?
>>
>>The Z figures show the use of a shunt to measure load.
>>Are Hall Effect systems not preferred yet?
>>
>>Are the typical volt meters included with electronic
>>instruments (Grand Rapids EIS4000, for example) adequate
>>for measuring bus voltage?
>>
>>Many thanks for the info.
>>
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
Message 6
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| Subject: | RE:Another bad story |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Johnny Johnson" <Johnny@wiktel.com>
At the risk of sounding exactly like what I am decrying, I just have to say
this...
This thread started out with a link to a story from a fellow that had a
problem during a night flight. He was man enough to share it, along with
what HE did wrong, so that others wouldn't make the same mistakes, and then
he expressed the belief that Someone higher than himself made it all come
out OK.
It was good to bring that link to our attention... we can all learn
something from incidents like this. Sadly, at that point the original post
got pretty caustic, and even attacked the guy's abilities and beliefs.
Subsequent posts in the thread have, for the most part, had barbs in them.
Lately we're correcting each other's spelling and grammar... humorous barbs,
perhaps?
Sure, the whole incident could have been avoided... the guy said so. Sure
it was stupid... the guy said so. He thinks prayer helps... so do I... if
you don't, that's your right but please leave it at that. So... where's the
beef?
C'mon people, all that this drivel accomplishes is to discourage the next
guy from contributing something that may be very helpful. Who among us
wants to take this sort of balderdash for making a
confession/comment/whatever that is offered with the sole intention of being
helpful? Before starting or perpetuating a negative thread like this,
please ask yourself what it will accomplish.
Flame away... I'm too old to give a rip :=)) Please don't clobber the list
with fire, let's let this thread die... shoot direct at me:
Johnny@wiktel.com
Johnny Johnson
Been flying since '62...
Done lotza stupid things...
And... God has been there lotza times
Else... why am I still here?
Message 7
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| Subject: | Chapter 7 - Electrical System Instrumentation clamav-milter |
version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
The sensors sense positive and negative current. The outputs are 0-5V with 0
Amps being 2.5V. These are three wire sensors, ground, +5V, and signal.
Placement of the sensor is up to you. I know that some people place on the
main battery cable, as over current does not harm the sensors. Others place
on alternator wire, while others place have used multiple sensors and placed
one on the E-bus.
I personally placed 200Amp one on the main battery cable of my car and
installed my Pulsar 200. Since the Pulsar 200 operates down to 8V I can
measure and record the starter current draw while cranking. However
measuring the start current draw is not a real need, I just found it
interesting.
The only thing to note is that wire diameter size. Which should not be a
problem, but often the sensor needs to be installed before the connectors
for the wires are crimped on.
Regards,
Trampas
www.sterntech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AI Nut
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chapter 7 - Electrical System
Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "AI Nut" <ainut@hiwaay.net>
Do you know what their output is? Hopefully, 0-5vdc? If so, I'll take a
couple!
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Chapter 7 - Electrical System
Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
>
> I have hall effect current sensors for about $30, if anyone wants one. I
can
> get them in 25, 50,100, and 200 Amp versions. I do not know about
> compatibility with Grand Rapids EIS but they will work with Stern Tech's
> engine monitors.
>
> Regards,
> Trampas
> www.sterntech.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chapter 7 - Electrical System
> Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
>
> My chapter 7 also says 1992.
>
> If you put a shunt on the battery then it has to be large enough to
> handle a couple of hundred cranking amps which means not very good
> resolution down at a couple of amps of battery charging current. It
> seems that is less of a problem with at least some Hall Effect sensors
> that are able to withstand large starting overloads. I think a voltmeter
> with low voltage warning is adequate. Either will indicate whether the
> battery is charging or discharging but the voltmeter is useful as an
> early warning for monitoring the voltage regulator. The EIS hall sensor
> is a bit pricey at $60. but easier to install than a shunt.
>
> My EIS unit agrees within 0.2 volt of my digital multimeter and reads to
> 1/10 of a volt so I consider it as good as anything for practical
purposes.
>
> Ken
>
> Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
> <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> >
> >Hi,
> >
> >What is the current state of the art for measuring
> >battery and alternator voltage and current, both
> >in terms of technique and products?
> >
> >I've read chapter 7, and I think I understand the
> >theory, and I'd like to put it to practice. My chapter 7
> >dates from 1992. I think this is the current version.
> >
> >My system will be like Figure 17-6. I see most
> >of the Z figures show a loadmeter for each alternator,
> >but none for the batteries. Why is this?
> >
> >The Z figures show the use of a shunt to measure load.
> >Are Hall Effect systems not preferred yet?
> >
> >Are the typical volt meters included with electronic
> >instruments (Grand Rapids EIS4000, for example) adequate
> >for measuring bus voltage?
> >
> >Many thanks for the info.
> >
> >--
> >Mickey Coggins
> >http://www.rv8.ch/
> >#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
> >
> >
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: RE:Another bad story |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Hi Johnny,
Perhaps I misread the comments, but I didn't get the impression
anyone was trying to slam the guy for his beliefs, but to
take him to task for getting himself into that situation.
All of us have done stupid things that should have gotten
us killed, whether we know it or not. "Why am I still here?"
is probably the same question as "why am I here?"
I think the overall goal of the comments on the story
was to try to get people to use their brains, and save
their prayers things that are truly out of their control.
Mickey
At 17:40 07-11-04, Johnny Johnson wrote:
-----Start of Original Message-----
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Johnny Johnson" <Johnny@wiktel.com>
>
>At the risk of sounding exactly like what I am decrying, I just have to say
>this...
>
>This thread started out with a link to a story from a fellow that had a
>problem during a night flight. He was man enough to share it, along with
>what HE did wrong, so that others wouldn't make the same mistakes, and then
>he expressed the belief that Someone higher than himself made it all come
>out OK.
>
>It was good to bring that link to our attention... we can all learn
>something from incidents like this. Sadly, at that point the original post
>got pretty caustic, and even attacked the guy's abilities and beliefs.
>Subsequent posts in the thread have, for the most part, had barbs in them.
>Lately we're correcting each other's spelling and grammar... humorous barbs,
>perhaps?
>
>Sure, the whole incident could have been avoided... the guy said so. Sure
>it was stupid... the guy said so. He thinks prayer helps... so do I... if
>you don't, that's your right but please leave it at that. So... where's the
>beef?
>
>C'mon people, all that this drivel accomplishes is to discourage the next
>guy from contributing something that may be very helpful. Who among us
>wants to take this sort of balderdash for making a
>confession/comment/whatever that is offered with the sole intention of being
>helpful? Before starting or perpetuating a negative thread like this,
>please ask yourself what it will accomplish.
>
>Flame away... I'm too old to give a rip :=)) Please don't clobber the list
>with fire, let's let this thread die... shoot direct at me:
>Johnny@wiktel.com
>
>Johnny Johnson
>Been flying since '62...
>Done lotza stupid things...
>And... God has been there lotza times
>Else... why am I still here?
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
Message 9
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|
| Subject: | Chapter 7 - Electrical System |
Instrumentation
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net> Instrumentation
Mickey
If you install the inductive sensor on the alternator output (B) wire,
the ammeter will not show a negative charge state. By placing the sensor on
the battery positive cable, the meter will show both positive and negative
charge situations.
Charlie Kuss
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
><mick-matronics@rv8.ch> Instrumentation
>
>Thanks for the info. Do people typically install one
>of these sensors just after the alternator, as in the
>Aeroelectric Connection Z figures?
>
>Mickey
>
>At 15:13 07-11-04, Trampas wrote:
>-----Start of Original Message-----
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
> >
> >I have hall effect current sensors for about $30, if anyone wants one. I can
> >get them in 25, 50,100, and 200 Amp versions. I do not know about
> >compatibility with Grand Rapids EIS but they will work with Stern Tech's
> >engine monitors.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Trampas
> >www.sterntech.com
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ken
> >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Chapter 7 - Electrical System
> >Instrumentation clamav-milter version 0.80j on juliet.albedo.net
> >
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
> >
> > My chapter 7 also says 1992.
> >
> >If you put a shunt on the battery then it has to be large enough to
> >handle a couple of hundred cranking amps which means not very good
> >resolution down at a couple of amps of battery charging current. It
> >seems that is less of a problem with at least some Hall Effect sensors
> >that are able to withstand large starting overloads. I think a voltmeter
> >with low voltage warning is adequate. Either will indicate whether the
> >battery is charging or discharging but the voltmeter is useful as an
> >early warning for monitoring the voltage regulator. The EIS hall sensor
> >is a bit pricey at $60. but easier to install than a shunt.
> >
> >My EIS unit agrees within 0.2 volt of my digital multimeter and reads to
> >1/10 of a volt so I consider it as good as anything for practical purposes.
> >
> >Ken
> >
> >Mickey Coggins wrote:
> >
> >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
> ><mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> >>
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>What is the current state of the art for measuring
> >>battery and alternator voltage and current, both
> >>in terms of technique and products?
> >>
> >>I've read chapter 7, and I think I understand the
> >>theory, and I'd like to put it to practice. My chapter 7
> >>dates from 1992. I think this is the current version.
> >>
> >>My system will be like Figure 17-6. I see most
> >>of the Z figures show a loadmeter for each alternator,
> >>but none for the batteries. Why is this?
> >>
> >>The Z figures show the use of a shunt to measure load.
> >>Are Hall Effect systems not preferred yet?
> >>
> >>Are the typical volt meters included with electronic
> >>instruments (Grand Rapids EIS4000, for example) adequate
> >>for measuring bus voltage?
> >>
> >>Many thanks for the info.
> >>
>
>
>--
>Mickey Coggins
>http://www.rv8.ch/
>#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Another bad story. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan O'Brien" <danobrien@cox.net>
Before starting or perpetuating a negative thread like this,
please ask yourself what it will accomplish.
Amen.
In a thread like this, I would hope contributors to the list could identify
what went wrong and what might have been done (in hind site) to make the
event more of a yawner. Even if the answer is simple, let's learn from
these things. If the lesson is that someone didn't believe their
instruments but should have, and that the experience could have been
avoided easily with better redundancy in the electrical system (e.g., as
proposed by Bob in his writings), then we should take that lesson and be
done with it.
I recently queried the Lancair list as to whether a 2600 foot runway was
too short for a first flight in an ES. I figured it was too short, and
could have offered reasons myself as to why. But I wanted to hear others'
opinions. I learned that the majority think it's too short, and some have
very strong feelings about why. Many expressed these feelings, along with
their reasons. The thread was valuable.
Had I thought people would jump on me for asking what some thought was a
question with an obvious answer, I would have been more reluctant to
ask. Then I might have gone with the the advice of one person I spoke
with, who said "2600' is plenty." The person who gave this answer is an
outstanding test pilot who knows how to save his bacon as well as
anyone. But the thread illuminated risks to the airframe that I've decided
aren't worth taking.
If we jump on people for sharing their stupid pilot tricks (something we
should all concede can happen to us), then valuable threads will go by the
wayside. This would be unfortunate.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Chapter 7 - Electrical System |
Instrumentation
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
Instrumentation
At 04:04 PM 11/7/2004 +0100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
><mick-matronics@rv8.ch> Instrumentation
>
>Thanks for the info. Do people typically install one
>of these sensors just after the alternator, as in the
>Aeroelectric Connection Z figures?
Yes . . . hall-effect sensors are directly interchangeable
with shunts.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Chapter 7 - Electrical System Instrumentation |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:44 AM 11/7/2004 +0100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
><mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>Hi,
>
>What is the current state of the art for measuring
>battery and alternator voltage and current, both
>in terms of technique and products?
>
>I've read chapter 7, and I think I understand the
>theory, and I'd like to put it to practice. My chapter 7
>dates from 1992. I think this is the current version.
>
>My system will be like Figure 17-6. I see most
>of the Z figures show a loadmeter for each alternator,
>but none for the batteries. Why is this?
>
>The Z figures show the use of a shunt to measure load.
>Are Hall Effect systems not preferred yet?
>
>Are the typical volt meters included with electronic
>instruments (Grand Rapids EIS4000, for example) adequate
>for measuring bus voltage?
>
>Many thanks for the info.
Please keep in mind that the Z-figures are crafted to suggest
architectures . . . there are many details such as breakers vs. fuses,
wire sizes, fuse/breaker sizes, assignment of appliances to
specific busses, AND instrumentation technologies that are
subject to builder decisions based on mission, preferences and/or
pocketbook.
The ART of instrumentation is technology based. The lowly
ammeter has been with us for over a century . . . and in it's
earliest forms worked well as the simple minus-zero-plus
battery ammeter common to gazillions of ground based vehicles
and a huge percentage of airplanes.
The battery ammeter was chosen as the lowest cost, easiest
to implement display of electrical system functionality.
The the present state of the ART now offers hall effect
sensors, digital displays, and system monitoring functions
built into devices that have many other functions than to
simply monitor the state of the electrical system.
The PHILOSOPHY of instrumentation is mission/user based.
If as the builder/operator of the airplane, you find usefulness
in monitoring and displaying lots of stuff about the electrical
system's performance, then the current state of the ART is
ready to address your every need/whim.
The question you need to consider is, "How and when is
knowledge about any particular parameter useful to me?"
This should be divided into two categories (1) data useful
for comfortable completion of flight and (2) data useful
for diagnosing problems on the ground.
As to the in-flight phase, I'd be perfectly comfortable with
zero displays of either current or voltage from any part
of the system assuming that (1) the battery is of known
capacity and (2) a dual feedpath e-bus is incorporated
and (3) the system is fitted with a low voltage warning
light of high integrity for calibration and low probability
for un-annunciated failure.
This philosophy of system design would have made 90+
percent of all dark-n-stormy night stories concerning
electrical systems go away. For example, the most recently
discussed story on the list featured a mis-interpretation
of readings on an analog instrument that NORMALLY reads
zero when everything is working but can also read very
near zero when engine driven power generation has failed
and the system loads are light. This kind of instrument
offers zero active warning and potentially ambiguous
readings. When I'm wondering about the close-to-zero
reading of the battery ammeter in an old Cessna, I
turn on pitot heat or landing light to make sure it
STAYS at or near zero meaning that the alternator/generator
is picking up new system loads IRRESPECTIVE any reading
I might try to get from the instrument's poor calibration.
One cannot ignore or mis-interpret a flashing low-volts
warning light. Further, when the light does come on,
the procedure for dealing with the situation is established
by ssytem design of the operating check lists.
IF LOW VOLTS WARNING LIGHT IS ON
(1) E-BUS ALT FEED switch - On
(2) DC PWR MASTER switch - Off
(3) E-BUS loads - minimize if practical
(4) Continue flight airport with facilities
to conveniently effect repairs.
How many other instruments, displays, and technologies
are . . .
(a) Added to cost of ownership of your airplane
(b) Added to the weight and complexity of your airplane,
(c) Reduce space on the panel needed for potentially
more useful things -AND-
(d) Add distracting and non-useful data while attempting to
deal with a charging system failure in flight
. . . are entirely up to you. Beyond the Low Volts Warning
light, all other data is useful only for diagnosing the
system problem later. Your selection of panel mounted
voltmeters and/or ammeters will never provide ALL the data
you need to diagnose every problem. So after one has exhibited
ho-hum skills for getting back on terra firma with a failure
tolerant, user friendly electrical system, one
should be able to whip out the trusty multi-meter and be
exceptionally skilled at knowing EXACTLY what part needs to be
pulled before you remove anything from the airplane.
The short answer to your question is: Don't go flying
without your trusty LOW VOLTS WARN system -AND- knowing
how much fuel you have aboard. After that, put any
additional instrumentation in your airplane that strikes
your fancy and fits your architecture. The only limitation
on the entire field of instrumentation choices is that
none of the Z-figures is friendly to use of the classic
minus-0-plus battery ammeter.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Another bad story |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:29 AM 11/7/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Johnny Johnson" <Johnny@wiktel.com>
>
>At the risk of sounding exactly like what I am decrying, I just have to say
>this...
>
>This thread started out with a link to a story from a fellow that had a
>problem during a night flight. He was man enough to share it, along with
>what HE did wrong, so that others wouldn't make the same mistakes, and then
>he expressed the belief that Someone higher than himself made it all come
>out OK.
>
>It was good to bring that link to our attention... we can all learn
>something from incidents like this. Sadly, at that point the original post
>got pretty caustic, and even attacked the guy's abilities and beliefs.
>Subsequent posts in the thread have, for the most part, had barbs in them.
>Lately we're correcting each other's spelling and grammar... humorous barbs,
>perhaps?
>
>Sure, the whole incident could have been avoided... the guy said so. Sure
>it was stupid... the guy said so. He thinks prayer helps... so do I... if
>you don't, that's your right but please leave it at that. So... where's the
>beef?
Yeah, it got a bit out of hand or perhaps out of scope for
the mission of sifting real life noise for simple-ideas. The
first posting was critical but not harshly so. It was no
less that what anyone should expect from a good teacher.
I've always encouraged folks to read the dark-n-stormy
night stories in the various journals with the eye and
mind-set of an accident analyst. One of my most treasured
friends and mentor hired me at various times over the
last 40 years to assist in his accident analysis business.
We sifting the ashes, dug through piles of bent
metal, and sort through hundreds of pages of testimony
watching for hard data points that would help us
describe what happened in terms anyone could understand
and without rewriting the laws of physics.
In the times I screwed something up, his response was,
shall we say, less than comfortable. But the response
was appropriate in that it converted the situation
into a memorable and never to be repeated event.
Let's try to be aware of what our words mean, why they
are being written and what value they add to understanding.
It's good if we're able to empathise with the folks
who share their stories with us . . . that way we can
be equally empathetic with respect to appropriate verbal
keel hauling. That's the best way to convert that
story-teller's situation into a memorable and never to be
repeated event.
I wonder know how many of you remember Pilot Gomez who's
own dark-n-stormy-night story was featured in opening
pages of Chapter 17 in the 'Connection. Years after that
chapter was published, I got a note from Mr. Gomez who
was told about his story being repeated in the 'Connection.
He said he was an engineer too . . . and that he was
in full agreement with the assessment offered as to
the suitability of electrical systems in certified aircraft.
He told me he'd purchased an RV kit and was about to
get himself unhooked from the world of over-regulated
aviation. He ordered a copy of the 'Connection. I should
dig back in the records and see if I can contact him again.
It would be interesting to see how he's coming along.
Let's strive to be good teachers and students and to
learn as much as we can from what goes on around
us. It's okay to be a stern teacher but let's try to
avoid dog-piling onto someone beyond what is necessary
to share the simple-ideas that will make their life
run smoother and with more confidence.
Bob . . .
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