Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:33 AM - Re: to tie or not to tie, that IS the question . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 09:12 AM - Re: Zip-Ties (jacklockamy)
3. 09:57 AM - Repost (Jerry2DT@aol.com)
4. 11:48 AM - Lister Comments - Please Support The Lists (Matt Dralle)
5. 04:41 PM - Re: Re: to tie or not to tie, that IS the question . . . (Paul Schattauer)
6. 05:04 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 11/26/04 (Graham Singleton)
7. 05:07 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 11/26/04 (Graham Singleton)
8. 07:20 PM - Re: Alternator 'B' Lead Protection (Tinne maha)
9. 08:26 PM - Re: Re: Alternator 'B' Lead Protection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: to tie or not to tie, that IS the question . . |
.
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
IMHO, the only advantage of zip-ties is reduced time for installation. I
don't recommend using them in the engine compartment, they get brittle with
time and can let loose without warning.
This is mostly a materials issue. Like bolts, you can purchase
cable ties in a wide variety of materials and qualities . . . and
like bolts, you cannot deduce the any secrets of fabrication by
simply looking at it.
Not all plastics are equal but most all plastics are relatively
cheap . . . so it's not difficult to purchase cable ties fabricated
from known materials selected for their suitability to the task.
If one wishes to acquire the Cadillac of cable ties made from the
same stuff as the wire insulation of choice, you can purchase
Tefzel ties from lots of places not the least of which is our
friends a Steinair. See:
http://www.steinair.com/cableties.htm
Any supplier worth his salt will KNOW where his inventory comes
from, what it's made of and MAY be able to advise for or against
the use of any particular product in certain applications. When
you buy that big jar of 1000 cable ties at Harbor Freight for $9.95,
what you see is what you get and you cannot deduce much from simply
seeing.
For ties that you do not wish to look and or touch for a very
long time, it's worth your time and effort to purchase ties
by name brand manufacturers where the material and it's features
are cited. Looking for UV, ozone, and/or hydrocarbon resistant
products. These are NOT the generic nylon cable wraps offered by
the vast majority of consumer oriented suppliers including
Walmart and Harbor Freight.
Tensioning zip-ties is also problematic. If you overtension, they WILL eat
the insulation with enough vibration/time.
There are at least two underlying issues here. Insulation is hard
to "eat" . . . but certain insulations like Teflon are soft enough
to flow under continuous pressure exceeding its compression strength
combined with heating cycles.
I have also seen wire-ties eat into engine mounts and aluminum when
installed improperly
There have been suggestions in this thread concerning abrasion of
metal tubes like engine mounts due to the improper use of cable ties.
I'll suggest that ANY form of wire attachment can become a problem
for metals IF the attachment is loose enough to allow motion -AND-
you add dust and grit to the space between the metal surface and
whatever is riding against it.
I had a power steering hose simply lay against a brake line in
my '57 Chevy for a bunch of years and lost brakes when a hole
blew out in a section of the brake line thinned out by continuous
motion of a rubber hose lubricated with gritty grease. This didn't
even involve a wire tie, "Adel" clamp or any such technology. These
kinds of things CAN and DO happen and it has nothing to do with
the type of retention technology and a LOT to do with craftsmanship.
If you undertension, wire-ties they don't hold well. They have a tendency
to slightly loosen after initial installation. To cure the above problems,
you might consider a wire tie install tool.
There are cable tie installation tools that feature adjustable
and repeatable tensioning and cutoff adjustments. Many factories
use them (including Raytheon Aircraft) and they've proven useful.
They're not cheap. I've never bothered to own one. The range of
acceptable tensions for wire ties is large and it's not hard to
apply them by hand in a way that offers long service life.
Wire-ties also have an affinity for human skin. You'll find this out down
the road when you reach up behind your panel to do something and shortly
thereafter donate a small amount of blood to the nylon god.
This is not so much an issue with the tie but how the tail is cut off.
Avoid using the classic diagonal wire cutter (dikes) . . . they
part the material by driving two symmetrical wedges together and
the finished cut protrudes from the tie buckle and is sharp. Use
flush cutters like:
http://www.action-electronics.com/cutters.htm
http://www.home-jewelry-business-success-tips.com/wire-cutter.html
http://www.techbuys.net/to-201.html
. . . and trim the tail off squarely and flush with the buckle
and you'll not have to bleed on the project at any time in the
future.
For shear beauty (and no cuts on your hands) nothing can beat tying your
wires together the old fashioned way. See the aeroelectric site for the
technique. Yes, it's time consuming! and requires a certain amount of
learned skill.
Probably no more effort than required to learn the use
of a cable-tie installation tool. However, there's
nothing 'magic' about the techniques suggested in:
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/cable_lace/cable_lace.html
the choice of MATERIALS is still just as critical. You
wouldn't want to tie up your wire bundles with kit
string.
Adels work great. They also weigh more and are time consuming to install.
I'd use them to use larger wiring harnesses and for all wiring attachment
in the engine compartment unless no other option exists.
We're talking about two related but different tasks. The cable tie
is used in many places to simply hold the bundle of wires together.
The MS21919 (Adel) series clamps . . .
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/adel.html
. . . are certainly adequate to many applications. This doesn't
mean that other materials and technologies are not recommended.
Proper use of any technology is dependent upon understanding
it's limitations.
On occasion, a bundle of wires needs to be support on the airframe
either for the purpose of simply holding the bundle in place -or-
to prevent the bundle from coming into adverse contact with
parts of the airplane.
Like all things on an aircraft, each situation will require a balance of
needs and limitations...
Exactly. The situation is further improved with a thoughtful
analysis of cause and effect for both materials selection and
techniques applied to their use.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "jacklockamy" <jacklockamy@verizon.net>
I just cut a 1 to 2" length of 3/4" ID black rubber hose, slice it down the middle
and put it over the engine mount every place I use 'zip-ties'.
No abrasion there and it's cheaper (and easier) than Adel clamps all over the place.....
Jack Lockamy
Camarillo, CA
Message 3
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com
This one was answered already and thanks to those who did. Somehow it got
reposted.
Do not archive.
Jerry C.
From: Jerry2DT@aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fat/thin wire routing
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com
Bob and all,
IIRC, you say not to run fat and thin wires together. Does this hold true
for the #8 power wire and #18 field wire to the alternator? Or does "fat"
just
mean the #2 & #4's?
Thanks,
Jerry Cochran
Message 4
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| Subject: | Lister Comments - Please Support The Lists |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: to tie or not to tie, that IS the question |
. . .
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Schattauer" <chasm711@msn.com>
Abrasion is one of the major things you look for during an on condidtion or
annual inspection. I like koroseal for tying things off or to in the engine
compartment but this stuff is not perfect either. Do the best you can and
inspect it regularly.
Paul Schattauer
RV8 808PS
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
>Reply-To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: to tie or not to tie, that IS the question
>. . .
>Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 10:32:21 -0600
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
><b.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>IMHO, the only advantage of zip-ties is reduced time for installation. I
>don't recommend using them in the engine compartment, they get brittle with
>time and can let loose without warning.
>
> This is mostly a materials issue. Like bolts, you can purchase
> cable ties in a wide variety of materials and qualities . . . and
> like bolts, you cannot deduce the any secrets of fabrication by
> simply looking at it.
>
> Not all plastics are equal but most all plastics are relatively
> cheap . . . so it's not difficult to purchase cable ties fabricated
> from known materials selected for their suitability to the task.
> If one wishes to acquire the Cadillac of cable ties made from the
> same stuff as the wire insulation of choice, you can purchase
> Tefzel ties from lots of places not the least of which is our
> friends a Steinair. See:
>
> http://www.steinair.com/cableties.htm
>
> Any supplier worth his salt will KNOW where his inventory comes
> from, what it's made of and MAY be able to advise for or against
> the use of any particular product in certain applications. When
> you buy that big jar of 1000 cable ties at Harbor Freight for $9.95,
> what you see is what you get and you cannot deduce much from simply
> seeing.
>
> For ties that you do not wish to look and or touch for a very
> long time, it's worth your time and effort to purchase ties
> by name brand manufacturers where the material and it's features
> are cited. Looking for UV, ozone, and/or hydrocarbon resistant
> products. These are NOT the generic nylon cable wraps offered by
> the vast majority of consumer oriented suppliers including
> Walmart and Harbor Freight.
>
>
>Tensioning zip-ties is also problematic. If you overtension, they WILL eat
>the insulation with enough vibration/time.
>
> There are at least two underlying issues here. Insulation is hard
> to "eat" . . . but certain insulations like Teflon are soft enough
> to flow under continuous pressure exceeding its compression strength
> combined with heating cycles.
>
>I have also seen wire-ties eat into engine mounts and aluminum when
>installed improperly
>
> There have been suggestions in this thread concerning abrasion of
> metal tubes like engine mounts due to the improper use of cable ties.
> I'll suggest that ANY form of wire attachment can become a problem
> for metals IF the attachment is loose enough to allow motion -AND-
> you add dust and grit to the space between the metal surface and
> whatever is riding against it.
>
> I had a power steering hose simply lay against a brake line in
> my '57 Chevy for a bunch of years and lost brakes when a hole
> blew out in a section of the brake line thinned out by continuous
> motion of a rubber hose lubricated with gritty grease. This didn't
> even involve a wire tie, "Adel" clamp or any such technology. These
> kinds of things CAN and DO happen and it has nothing to do with
> the type of retention technology and a LOT to do with craftsmanship.
>
>
>If you undertension, wire-ties they don't hold well. They have a tendency
>to slightly loosen after initial installation. To cure the above problems,
>you might consider a wire tie install tool.
>
> There are cable tie installation tools that feature adjustable
> and repeatable tensioning and cutoff adjustments. Many factories
> use them (including Raytheon Aircraft) and they've proven useful.
> They're not cheap. I've never bothered to own one. The range of
> acceptable tensions for wire ties is large and it's not hard to
> apply them by hand in a way that offers long service life.
>
>
>Wire-ties also have an affinity for human skin. You'll find this out down
>the road when you reach up behind your panel to do something and shortly
>thereafter donate a small amount of blood to the nylon god.
>
> This is not so much an issue with the tie but how the tail is cut
>off.
> Avoid using the classic diagonal wire cutter (dikes) . . . they
> part the material by driving two symmetrical wedges together and
> the finished cut protrudes from the tie buckle and is sharp. Use
> flush cutters like:
>
>http://www.action-electronics.com/cutters.htm
>
>http://www.home-jewelry-business-success-tips.com/wire-cutter.html
>
>http://www.techbuys.net/to-201.html
>
> . . . and trim the tail off squarely and flush with the buckle
> and you'll not have to bleed on the project at any time in the
> future.
>
>For shear beauty (and no cuts on your hands) nothing can beat tying your
>wires together the old fashioned way. See the aeroelectric site for the
>technique. Yes, it's time consuming! and requires a certain amount of
>learned skill.
>
> Probably no more effort than required to learn the use
> of a cable-tie installation tool. However, there's
> nothing 'magic' about the techniques suggested in:
>
>http://aeroelectric.com/articles/cable_lace/cable_lace.html
>
>
> the choice of MATERIALS is still just as critical. You
> wouldn't want to tie up your wire bundles with kit
> string.
>
>Adels work great. They also weigh more and are time consuming to install.
>I'd use them to use larger wiring harnesses and for all wiring attachment
>in the engine compartment unless no other option exists.
>
> We're talking about two related but different tasks. The cable tie
> is used in many places to simply hold the bundle of wires together.
> The MS21919 (Adel) series clamps . . .
>
>http://aeroelectric.com/articles/adel.html
>
> . . . are certainly adequate to many applications. This doesn't
> mean that other materials and technologies are not recommended.
> Proper use of any technology is dependent upon understanding
> it's limitations.
>
>
> On occasion, a bundle of wires needs to be support on the airframe
> either for the purpose of simply holding the bundle in place -or-
> to prevent the bundle from coming into adverse contact with
> parts of the airplane.
>
>Like all things on an aircraft, each situation will require a balance of
>needs and limitations...
>
> Exactly. The situation is further improved with a thoughtful
> analysis of cause and effect for both materials selection and
> techniques applied to their use.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 11/26/04 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
At 23:55 26/11/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Boss" <bossone@cox.net>
>
>What a bunch of happy horse kaka. For an abraisve to work it has to be
>harder than what it is to abrade and has to move relative to what it is to
>abrade. Don't tell me that a nylon tie wrap is going to cut 4130 steel or
>that it is going to move when properly chinced up. Who dreamed up this crap?
I guess the answer is that bitter experience dreamed it up. Nylon is soft
and will carry embedded abrasive dust just like sandpaper. Plenty of that
kind of dust in a fiberglass airplane workshop. Does that answer your question?
Graham
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 25 Msgs - 11/26/04 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
At 23:55 26/11/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>"Boss" <bossone@cox.net>
>
>So, is it going to react with the paint ofn the tubing. I doubt it.
You are welcome to your opinion.
Graham
the mind is like a parachute. If it isn't open it's useless
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator 'B' Lead Protection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
Bob et al,
I searched 3 different places around town today before finding an ANL fuse
holder.......I was rather shocked at the size & weight (despite the size
being printed in your reference below) So I'm looking into the other
options you listed but got to wondering about using a fusible link to
protect the B lead (as my alternator will only put out a MAX of 25 amps, I
am using an AWG 10 wire for the B lead....which would use an AWG 14 wire for
the fuse link)
I realize (this time at least) that I know only enough to be dangerous....so
I'm NOT proceeding with this plan. I re-read the part about fusible links
in Chapter 10 where Bob doesn't recommend using them for anything but
relativley low current feeders. Could you tell me why, mainly out of
curiosity? Does it have to do with how quickly the weak link device will
break?
Grant
>List,
>
>I am having trouble picturing the installation of a cirquit breaker for the
>B and C SD-20 alternator I am installing. Would one mount it to the
>firewall as if it were a panel? Wouldn't the heat be an issue?
>
>Would an in-line fuse be easier? Where could I get an appropriate fuse &
>holder?
Sure . . . An ANL30 fuse on mounting base like:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/clbase.jpg
Another alternative is the MAX series fuses by Bussmann.
See:
http://www.bussmann.com/shared/library/catalogs/Buss_Auto-Fuse_Cat.pdf
This catalog shows a variety of high current fuses like
the MAX, ANL, ANN, AMI any one of which would be better suited
than a circuit breaker mounted in the engine compartment. Find
a robust 30A device (NOT the little plastic ATC series like those
used in the fuseblocks).
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator 'B' Lead Protection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:19 PM 11/27/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
>
>Bob et al,
>
>I searched 3 different places around town today before finding an ANL fuse
>holder.......I was rather shocked at the size & weight (despite the size
>being printed in your reference below) So I'm looking into the other
>options you listed but got to wondering about using a fusible link to
>protect the B lead (as my alternator will only put out a MAX of 25 amps, I
>am using an AWG 10 wire for the B lead....which would use an AWG 14 wire for
>the fuse link)
>
>I realize (this time at least) that I know only enough to be dangerous....so
>I'm NOT proceeding with this plan. I re-read the part about fusible links
>in Chapter 10 where Bob doesn't recommend using them for anything but
>relativley low current feeders. Could you tell me why, mainly out of
>curiosity? Does it have to do with how quickly the weak link device will
>break?
Is the ANL fuse and holder the ONLY alternative you saw in the
catalog? How about a 30A MAXI fuse in a HHX fuseholder? How about
one of the FL series fuses on a holder of your own fabrication?
A chunk of phenolic or Delrin and a couple of 10-30 screws and
nuts would make a dandy fuseblock.
Bob . . .
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