Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:47 AM - Bread Bag Ties? (KITFOXZ@aol.com)
2. 06:12 AM - Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? (Brian Lloyd)
3. 06:58 AM - Re: E-Bus Usage Procedure / Question (plaurence@the-beach.net)
4. 07:16 AM - fuse block location (thomas a. sargent)
5. 07:25 AM - Re: Bread Bag Ties? (KITFOXZ@aol.com)
6. 07:38 AM - Re: fuse block location (Jeff Orear)
7. 07:42 AM - Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? (Mickey Coggins)
8. 07:50 AM - Re: fuse block location (Mickey Coggins)
9. 08:10 AM - Re: fuse block location (Ken)
10. 08:21 AM - Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? (Paul Messinger)
11. 09:52 AM - Re: E-Bus Usage Procedure / Question (Dan Checkoway)
12. 10:00 AM - Re: fuse block location (Greg Young)
13. 10:29 AM - Ergonomic Switch Knobs ()
14. 11:42 AM - Re: fuse block location (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 11:44 AM - Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 11:48 AM - Re: fuse block location (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 11:49 AM - Re: fuse block location (Jim Jewell)
18. 11:54 AM - Re: Toggle Switch Knob (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 11:57 AM - Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 12:07 PM - Re: fuse block location (thomas a. sargent)
21. 12:12 PM - Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? (Mickey Coggins)
22. 12:56 PM - Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? (923te)
23. 01:07 PM - Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
24. 01:19 PM - Re: fuse block location (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
25. 01:19 PM - Re: Stereo Headphone jacks (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
26. 01:20 PM - Re: Toggle Switch Knob (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
27. 01:42 PM - Re: Bread Bag Ties? (DonVS)
28. 01:56 PM - Re: E-Bus Usage Procedure / Question (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
29. 02:11 PM - Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
30. 02:13 PM - Re: Stereo Headphone jacks (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
31. 03:50 PM - Single mag, single elec ign operation (Steve & Denise)
32. 04:36 PM - Re: Single mag, single elec ign operation (David Chalmers)
33. 04:38 PM - Re: fuse block location (Bobby Hester)
34. 04:42 PM - Re: Single mag, single elec ign operation (James E. Clark)
35. 04:58 PM - Re: E-Bus Usage Procedure / Question (Bobby Hester)
36. 05:14 PM - Re: E-Bus Usage Procedure / Question (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
37. 05:54 PM - Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? (Jim Jewell)
38. 05:57 PM - E bus switching. (Rob W M Shipley)
39. 06:30 PM - Re: Bread Bag Ties? (Jim Jewell)
40. 06:32 PM - Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? (Brian Kraut)
41. 06:43 PM - Master Ground (Tinne maha)
42. 06:57 PM - Small Wire, Big Ring Terminal (Tinne maha)
43. 07:54 PM - Re: E bus switching. (Dan Checkoway)
44. 08:19 PM - Re: Small Wire, Big Ring Terminal (Kingsley Hurst)
45. 08:44 PM - KMA 20 manual (Franck ILMAIN)
46. 10:37 PM - Re: Small Wire, Big Ring Terminal (Robert McCallum)
47. 10:39 PM - Re: Bread Bag Ties? (Franz Fux)
48. 11:02 PM - Re: Bread Bag Ties? (Jim Jewell)
Message 1
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KITFOXZ@aol.com
Hello Wire Stringers,
Everyone pretty well beat up the postings on Zip-Ties, Tie-Wraps, Ny-Wraps,
Plastic Zips or whatever you choose to call them. I have an idea that some
of you may be interested in.
This is an idea that worked very well for me some years back when building
up electronic/electrical panels for non-aviation purposes. The problem is the
same. You need to run wires in bundles from point A to point B. A
combination of waxed string and/or zip ties will be the final tie method. You
want
it to look neat and be secure.
Well, in my opinion the secret weapon is....BREAD BAG PLASTIC TWIST TIES!
_http://www.chiswick.com//product/dept.asp?dept%5fid=11007&deptpath%5fid=11007
&clickedsku=no&requestimagefile=no&headername=twist+ties?GoogleCH_twist_tie_
(http://www.chiswick.com//product/dept.asp?dept_id=11007&deptpath_id=11007&clic
kedsku=no&requestimagefile=no&headername=twist+ties?GoogleCH_twist_tie)
These can be used as temporary ties at all tie points until you are
completely finished adding/subtracting wires and routing them. Lay a wire in
and
give the tie a twist. Need to change something, un-twist and re-twist as
needed. When the final layout is complete, you just go through your panel and
replace each bread tie with a zip-tie or waxed string.
A couple of other notes on the final tie up: The ideal wire bundle has all
wires run in PARALLEL. To accomplish this you need to run the longest
distance wire in the center of the bundle. In other words, it gets run first.
The
next longest run goes second, etc. This way, no wires have to penetrate out
of the bundle through a bunch of other wires. This may sound like a big
hassle but wires that cross each other in a bundle create pressure points that
could bite you later.
Zip-ties or string should be the tie device for the WHOLE bundle. Don't go
adding that new transponder later and running its cable next to the existing
tied up bundle and adding more zip-ties over all. No, no, no, Cut all
zip-ties off the first bundle and marry the new wires into the "new" bundle and
tie
as a group. All wires will be snug and parallel as a unit. Each wire's
break out point will have a small slack loop in it to absorb slight movement as
it goes to its wire landing point.
It will look pretty too! I know you guys like pretty.
John P. Marzluf
Columbus, Ohio
Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
On Dec 3, 2004, at 6:46 PM, John Grosse wrote:
> voltage spikes. So far I agree with the debunkers. The issue is the
> alternator trying to supply 200 amps to the starter which, of course,
> it
> can't do.
You are right, it can't. It can't even come close to generating 200A
even if it were working into a dead short at high speed.
> This, as I've been led to understand, is not a good thing for
> the alternator because it creates an overload or something?
No, it isn't even that. I doubt that the alternator could even
generate an amp at those cranking speeds so there is no effective load
on the alternator.
The primary stress on an alternator comes from heat. Usually that heat
comes from I*R losses in the stator (current times the resistance of
the stator windings). Those losses are in the form of heat generated
in the stator windings. If you can't generate any current the losses
and heat generated are negligible hence no stress on the alternator.
> I don't
> totally understand the dynamics inside the alternator, but it
> supposedly
> stress something in there out and causes premature failures.
No, there are no stresses on it at that point other than the fact that
full field current is flowing through the rotor/armature and the
alternator is designed to handle that forever.
The output of an alternator is self-limiting. We come back to the I*R
losses in the stator again. If you recall Ohm's law, E = I * R
(voltage equals current times resistance). As the alternator delivers
more current there is more voltage drop across the stator. Eventually
the voltage drop is high enough that the alternator cannot produce
enough voltage and its output voltage begins to drop in spite of the
field current being full-on. This causes the current to drop too.
Therefore the output of the alternator is current limited.
> As far as the "automobiles don't do it" argument goes... I'm not so
> sure
> they don't actually do it. They just do it automatically for you. When
> you turn the key to energize the starter power is shut off to all the
> accessories... and the alternator??
It depends on which type of alternator and alternator wiring in the
automobile. There really isn't an appreciable difference between an
automotive charging system and an aircraft charging system. You will
find that the alternators and regulators used in aircraft are virtually
identical to their automotive counterparts. The switching may be
slightly different but that is all.
> A little empirical data... I went through 2 alternators in about a 1000
> hrs before I put in a split switch. Since I put in the switch I've had
> no failures... knock on wood.
Interesting but Anecdotal. You just don't have a big enough
statistical sample.
> Whatever is going on in our airplanes sure causes the alternator to
> fail
> a lot more often than in our cars, and it's not just vibration.
Well, what does kill alternators? As I see it, they suffer from heat,
vibration, and overspeed. At higher altitude the air needed for
cooling is much less dense and you get less cooling effect and higher
temps. And of course the vibration is much higher in an aircraft
engine. If the pulley is too small in an attempt to get a lot of
output at low engine RPM you may turn the alternator too fast and cause
premature bearing failure.
The alternator charging system is amazingly reliable. If you keep the
output of the alternator well below its stated rating, deal properly
with vibration, and don't spin it too fast, it will last a long, long
time. Oh, and make sure you have proper cooling to the regulator and
good wiring that is properly sized and protected against vibration.
None of this is rocket science. Bob has been writing about this stuff
for years and years.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: E-Bus Usage Procedure / Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: plaurence@the-beach.net
On 4 Dec 2004 at 20:20, Dan Checkoway wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway"
> <dan@rvproject.com>
>
> Matthew,
>
> Yes, you got it...but...I always fly with my E-Bus switch ON.
> Constantly. That way it's just one switch flip if and when the
> alternator dies, and voltage to my "essentials" (some of which need
> initialization time, such as the GPS) is NOT interrupted.
>
> If you fly with the E-Bus switch ON all the time, when the alternator
> dies, flip the master switch all the way off and keep flying.
>
> Plus, this way, the devices on the E-Bus theoretically don't see the
> voltage drop they otherwise would if the E-Bus was being fed through
> the diode. The E-Bus is being fed from the battery bus (I think!).
>
> Hope this makes sense, and please correct me if I'm wrong.
Dan
That is correct. But, The voltage drop across the diode should not affect the items
that are being powered by the e- buss.
Moreover, I've seen one design where an avionics buss was powered by the e-buss
through a relay. Yep-
If one forgets to turn the e-buss switch off, the battery will drain.
Peter
RV9A wings
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matthew Brandes" <matthew@n523rv.com>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: E-Bus Usage Procedure / Question
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matthew Brandes"
> <matthew@n523rv.com>
> >
> > I think I'm getting closer to understanding all this electrical
> > stuff..
> but I have a question about the E-bus procedure.
> >
> > (Ref. Dwg 11) So your toodling along and your alternator craps out.
> > No
> big deal... you've planned for it. The alternator is taken offline
> and you are ready to switch over to your E-Bus. So you flip the e-bus
> switch, so the e-bus is now drawing current from the battery side of
> the contactor. The diode is keeping current from flowing back to the
> Main bus, HOWEVER, if the battery contactor circuit is still closed
> (BAT switch On), the main bus would still be drawing current through
> the contactor, yes? So with this design, if the alternator craps out
> and you want to switch over to the e-bus, you need to put the master
> switch in the off position, opening the battery contactor cicuit,
> keeping the main bus from drawing current. > > Did that make sense?
> Am I missing something? Procedure: Turn on the E-Bus then turn off
> the Master Switch. > > Matthew > RV-9A Finish Kit > 'lectric newbie >
> >
>
>
> advertising on the Matronics Forums.
> >
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | fuse block location |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@comcast.net>
You want your fuse blocks mounted in a place that is easy to get at.
Airplanes have darn few places that are easy to get at. I keep thinking
in terms of mounting them on something that is movable over a limited
range, such as a panel that hinges open or a small "drawer" that slides
out. You'd have to be careful to leave enough of a service loop on the
wiring to permit the motion, of course and cable dress would be
imprtant. It would probably only be 5 or 6 inches of extra wire. I
think it could be done safely. I recall seeing something like this on
one builder's web page a long time ago.
So, where/how are people mounting their fuse blocks?
--
Tom Sargent
RV-6A, firewall.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Bread Bag Ties? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KITFOXZ@aol.com
I goofed, try this for vinyl twist ties. 10 inch length are good.
_http://www.chiswick.com//searchresults.asp?searchtype=Basic&searchstring=viny
l+twist+ties&cpage=2_
(http://www.chiswick.com//searchresults.asp?searchtype=Basic&searchstring=vinyl+twist+ties&cpage=2)
John P. Marzluf
Columbus, Ohio
Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: fuse block location |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeff Orear" <jorear@new.rr.com>
Tom:
I have my fuseblocks on a flip down panel that is hinged on the subpanel
and is then screwed to the bottom flange of the instrument panel. REmove
two screws and it is flipped down for fuse access. I can send you pics if
you like.
Jeff Orear
RV6A N782P
cowling and windshield fairing
Peshtigo, WI
----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@comcast.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: fuse block location
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent"
> <sarg314@comcast.net>
>
> You want your fuse blocks mounted in a place that is easy to get at.
> Airplanes have darn few places that are easy to get at. I keep thinking
> in terms of mounting them on something that is movable over a limited
> range, such as a panel that hinges open or a small "drawer" that slides
> out. You'd have to be careful to leave enough of a service loop on the
> wiring to permit the motion, of course and cable dress would be
> imprtant. It would probably only be 5 or 6 inches of extra wire. I
> think it could be done safely. I recall seeing something like this on
> one builder's web page a long time ago.
>
> So, where/how are people mounting their fuse blocks?
> --
> Tom Sargent
> RV-6A, firewall.
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>Well, what does kill alternators? As I see it, they suffer from heat,
>vibration, and overspeed. At higher altitude the air needed for
>cooling is much less dense and you get less cooling effect and higher
>temps. ...
>
>... Oh, and make sure you have proper cooling to the regulator and
>good wiring that is properly sized and protected against vibration.
Hi Brian,
Would you recommend a dedicated scat tube to the alternator? The
one I plan to use is internally regulated, unless I can figure
out how to remove the internal regulator, which I will try to do
when I receive it. Any issue with the water that would probably
be contained in the cooling air?
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: fuse block location |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Good question. I have not yet decided exactly where I will put
mine, but one question I have is do fuses blow very often? I
have not had one blow in one of my cars or motorcycles for at
least 25 years. Of course, the spam cans I fly have circuit
breakers, and I have never experienced a tripped breaker, either.
Mickey
>So, where/how are people mounting their fuse blocks?
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: fuse block location |
clamav-milter version 0.80j
on juliet.albedo.net
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Hi Tom
My 3 fuseblocks (electric dependant engine) are on the firewall. Well
actually on a bracket an inch
from the firewall. The plan is that none will ever be replaced in
flight so I don't care much about accessability. It also helped keep the
wires feeding them short.
More than one fuse would have to pop to stop the engine and if that
happens I'll be busy flying. With that large of an electrical problem I
would want to be on the ground with a fire extinguisher in hand to
repower things anyway...
Ken
thomas a. sargent wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent"
<sarg314@comcast.net>
>
>You want your fuse blocks mounted in a place that is easy to get at.
>Airplanes have darn few places that are easy to get at. I keep thinking
>in terms of mounting them on something that is movable over a limited
>range, such as a panel that hinges open or a small "drawer" that slides
>out. You'd have to be careful to leave enough of a service loop on the
>wiring to permit the motion, of course and cable dress would be
>imprtant. It would probably only be 5 or 6 inches of extra wire. I
>think it could be done safely. I recall seeing something like this on
>one builder's web page a long time ago.
>
>So, where/how are people mounting their fuse blocks?
>--
>Tom Sargent
>RV-6A, firewall.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" <paulm@olypen.com>
Embedded comments
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Off During Start Up?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey"
<glcasey@adelphia.net>
>
> <<Automobiles live with a thing called "load dump" or "load dump
transient,"
> where if something shuts off or a wire breaks, the alternator output
voltage
> will jump way up momentarily. I forget if they design to 40 or 70 volts,
> and somewhere in the car or an accessory is a huge zener to limit
> overvoltage beyond that.>>
Automobiles are wired DIFFERENTLY than aircraft. The critical difference is
the alternator "B" lead is hard wired in an auto and is run thru a contactor
in an aircraft. This is a very important difference. Disconnection the
battery in an auto with the alternator producing current is a failure
condition and is not fully protected against. We take this (auto) design and
internally disconnect the battery and then get upset when things fail :-).
Our designs need to make it impossible to disconnect the alternator "B" lead
from the battery when the alternator is producing current except in the case
of a failure.
The "load dump" is a non event in an auto (voltage peak is very small) with
the battery always connected to the alternator. However if you disconnect
the battery from the alternator when the battery is being charged and or
later remove an alternator load (like turning off landing lights) when the
battery is disconnected you produce the "load dump". As the alternator takes
time to react to a reduced load and is a current generator not a voltage
producer the output voltage jumps up to what ever voltage is needed to
source the original current into the new reduced load. The voltage peak is
what ever it needs to be to maintain the current. In extreme cases that
voltage can exceed 100V. Depending on the amount of current being reduced
and the remaining load the "load dump" current; Overvoltage can take more
than 1/10 of a second (this is quite long compared to what is needed to
damage electronics or even the alternator regulator). I have observed load
dumps exceeding 1/5 (200 ms) long and voltage peaks over 60V. Only happens
with no battery connected to absorb the excess current.
When considering design of electrical systems its important to remember that
alternator is a current generator with a slow response to current load
changes. Reducing the load suddenly by removing one load component requires
the rest of the load to maintain the prior current for a short time. The
battery does this when there is a battery as a load. If there is no battery
the system voltage increases as needed to absorb the current until the
alternator stabilizes at the lower current load.
The system design is different with internally regulated alternators Vs. the
externally regulated alternators but the "load dump" is still a design
concern.
>
> I think when push comes to shove I believe the average car will have a
> slightly "quieter" electrical system than a plane. Since weight is not an
> issue they have a much larger battery and larger-gage ground wires, both
of
> which tend to keep voltage transients down.
In this case both applications have generally the same size wire (for the
"B" lead). The AGM batteries used in aircraft are lighter but have much
lower internal resistance and thus are better at absorbing "load dumps".
The typical auto has a very quiet electrical power system because it has FAR
more noise suppression and noise immunity designed components. The DO-160
that Bob talks about is often not complied with (either partially or fully)
and even if it was; its far short of the requirements contained in the
automotive industry similar specifications.
Thanks to Eric and Bob I have copies of both DO-160 and the automotive
equivalent and what a difference!
> The load dump
> that causes big problems is when there is an open circuit at the battery
and
> in this case there is nothing that will absorb the current that was being
> taken by the battery, whereupon the system voltage can rise to over 100
> volts. Automotive systems are designed to survive this type of voltage
> transient even though it is quite rare. No, there is nothing in an
> automotive system specifically designed to ABSORB that transient -
> everything is designed to TOLERATE it. No "huge zener."
There is designed into every automotive component so called transorbs that
are special designed "zeners" that have a response time 10,000 times faster
and can handle huge peak currents. You are correct however that since the
battery is never disconnected in an automobile its components are not
designed to work under extreme cases of load dump, just those occurring
under normal load on/off cycles.
The load dump discussions resurfaced when Vans internally regulated
alternators started failing. As there alternators are not new but rebuilt
some have suggested its a poorly designed aftermarket regulator that is the
cause. I have seen on data to suggest this is the cause. Some pilots have
reported that the alternator was internally turned off as part of preflight.
This will always cause a load dump and its not clear even OEM regulators
could survive this as its never possible in a an auto where the alternator
was designed for use.
> And by the way, in passenger cars the alternator is "on" during cranking.
> Most of the accessories are turned off during cranking to reduce battery
> load, NOT to protect them against any mythical voltage transients.
Remember the auto battery typically has less cranking power than our AGM
smaller in AH but higher (double in most cases) Cranking power.
> Incidentally, according to the wiring diagram my Cessna was originally
> equipped with a relay in the avionics bus that shut it off during
cranking -
> long since removed.
Unless you are sure ALL of your avionics have been designed to the FULL
specifications of at least DO-160 its not a good idea to subject them to the
starting load voltage excursions/transients (yes there are some of concern).
More in the coming report.
Paul
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: E-Bus Usage Procedure / Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> That is correct. But, The voltage drop across the diode should not affect
the items
> that are being powered by the e- buss.
Do you mean to say the 0.7V drop won't cause a *noticeable* affect -- i.e.
the avionics won't perform any differently? I agree with that, but one
thing that I do notice is a 0.2 to 0.3A difference on my hall effect driven
ammeter when I switch the E-Bus on and off in flight.
If I can save my alternator from having to producing that extra quarter of
an amp, it's a minor victory. ;-)
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | fuse block location |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
On my 1st -6 I used a hinged plate under the instrument panel. I didn't like
it because I had to mount the hinge too far forward to keep it hidden. If
you try to hinge it at the panel, with a std height panel, there is no room
to angle the plate upward or use a "Z" offset to hide the blocks & wires. On
the Phoenix I'm mounting the blocks directly on the left fuselage side just
fwd of F-604, below the panel and above the rudder cable. I plan to put an
interior panel over that area and will put in a pop-out door to access the
blocks - automotive style. I countersunk the blocks so I could dimple the
skin and mount them with flat head screws. You just have to get past the
idea of drilling holes in the fuselage skin. Once flying I'm sure I'll get
questions about the screw heads.
Regards,
Greg Young - Houston (DWH)
RV-6 N6GY ...project Phoenix
Navion N5221K - just an XXL RV-6A
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent"
> --> <sarg314@comcast.net>
>
> You want your fuse blocks mounted in a place that is easy to get at.
> Airplanes have darn few places that are easy to get at. I
> keep thinking in terms of mounting them on something that is
> movable over a limited range, such as a panel that hinges
> open or a small "drawer" that slides out. You'd have to be
> careful to leave enough of a service loop on the wiring to
> permit the motion, of course and cable dress would be
> imprtant. It would probably only be 5 or 6 inches of extra wire. I
> think it could be done safely. I recall seeing something
> like this on
> one builder's web page a long time ago.
>
> So, where/how are people mounting their fuse blocks?
> --
> Tom Sargent
> RV-6A, firewall.
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Ergonomic Switch Knobs |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
12/5/2004
Subject: Ergonomic Switch Knobs
Previous messages:
<<Why don't you just carve one out of wood? I carved a flap lever out of
aluminum using a grinder, but the round shape of the wheel might be
easier with wood.>>
<<I'd be interested in getting one of these as well. Also, while we're discussing
switch ergonomics, does anyone know of a source of T-shaped landing light switches?
All the commercial and military aircraft I've flown have these shaped
so you can tell it's for the landing lights without looking.>>
Hello Fellow Builders, For those looking for ergonomic switch knobs such as wheels,
etc. I suggest that you look in the direction of the suppliers to those who
make home made wooden toys.
There are dozens of such companies with a huge supply of offerings. Here is just one <http://www.craftparts.com/mall/page38.asp>
OC
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: fuse block location |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 04:50 PM 12/5/2004 +0100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
><mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>Good question. I have not yet decided exactly where I will put
>mine, but one question I have is do fuses blow very often? I
>have not had one blow in one of my cars or motorcycles for at
>least 25 years. Of course, the spam cans I fly have circuit
>breakers, and I have never experienced a tripped breaker, either.
Good anecdotal data. I'll suggest that 99.99+ percent of all breakers
and fuses installed in any vehicle will never be called upon to protect
the system over the lifetime of the vehicle . . . when they ARE
needed, the most likely cause is some condition that cannot be
mitigated by replacing the fuse or resetting the breaker. So if any
particular system is desirable for comfortable completion of flight,
you'd do well to have a backup for it.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 04:42 PM 12/5/2004 +0100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
><mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>
> >Well, what does kill alternators? As I see it, they suffer from heat,
> >vibration, and overspeed. At higher altitude the air needed for
> >cooling is much less dense and you get less cooling effect and higher
> >temps. ...
> >
> >... Oh, and make sure you have proper cooling to the regulator and
> >good wiring that is properly sized and protected against vibration.
>
>Hi Brian,
>
>Would you recommend a dedicated scat tube to the alternator? The
>one I plan to use is internally regulated, unless I can figure
>out how to remove the internal regulator, which I will try to do
>when I receive it. Any issue with the water that would probably
>be contained in the cooling air?
>
>Thanks,
>Mickey
Ask around the list-server for your particular airplane
and inquire as to the experience of the group on alternator
failures due to overheating. Obviously, if your heart's desire
is to have a forced air cooled alternator, you can certainly
have one. As you've noted, there are potential un-intended
consequences for adding the cooling duct. If you want to
discover for yourself how well your alternator is cooled,
you can easily thermocouple the critter and find out during
your fly-off interval.
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: fuse block location |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:15 AM 12/5/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent"
><sarg314@comcast.net>
>
>You want your fuse blocks mounted in a place that is easy to get at.
>Airplanes have darn few places that are easy to get at. I keep thinking
>in terms of mounting them on something that is movable over a limited
>range, such as a panel that hinges open or a small "drawer" that slides
>out. You'd have to be careful to leave enough of a service loop on the
>wiring to permit the motion, of course and cable dress would be
>imprtant. It would probably only be 5 or 6 inches of extra wire. I
>think it could be done safely. I recall seeing something like this on
>one builder's web page a long time ago.
>
>So, where/how are people mounting their fuse blocks?
If it is your intention to make fuses accessible in flight,
consider the probability that you're more likely to have an
unhappy ending to the day by switching your attention from
pilot duties so that you can hammer on an electrical problem.
Design you system for failure tolerance and leave the toolbox
closed until on the ground. The more INACCESSIBLE you make the
fuseblock, the less likely it is to detract from your duties
as pilot.
Bob . . .
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: fuse block location |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
Tom,
On my 6a I have added a 2" recessed subpanel across the bottom of the main
panel. The center section is for the engine controls.
Like Jeff I hinged the co-pilot side fuse panel, it is held in place with
two screws. The pilot side switch panel also drops down for maintenance
access, two screws hold it up.
The two drop down panel's hinge pins clip in and can be re-moved allowing
them to be moved out and away for better under panel access.
The center section is held in place with four screws.
This addition did represent extra work and build time. The driving force for
going this route is a stiff old arthritic back that aches at the thought of
spending any time at all under the panel.
A drop down fuse panel under the standard vans panel should be do-able but
the sub panel does offer much more space to work in.
If you have very long boned people that want to fly with you the added 2"
subpanel might get in the way of their knees
I can send pics
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Orear" <jorear@new.rr.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: fuse block location
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeff Orear" <jorear@new.rr.com>
>
> Tom:
>
> I have my fuseblocks on a flip down panel that is hinged on the subpanel
> and is then screwed to the bottom flange of the instrument panel. REmove
> two screws and it is flipped down for fuse access. I can send you pics if
> you like.
>
>
> Jeff Orear
> RV6A N782P
> cowling and windshield fairing
> Peshtigo, WI
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@comcast.net>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: fuse block location
>
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent"
>> <sarg314@comcast.net>
>>
>> You want your fuse blocks mounted in a place that is easy to get at.
>> Airplanes have darn few places that are easy to get at. I keep thinking
>> in terms of mounting them on something that is movable over a limited
>> range, such as a panel that hinges open or a small "drawer" that slides
>> out. You'd have to be careful to leave enough of a service loop on the
>> wiring to permit the motion, of course and cable dress would be
>> imprtant. It would probably only be 5 or 6 inches of extra wire. I
>> think it could be done safely. I recall seeing something like this on
>> one builder's web page a long time ago.
>>
>> So, where/how are people mounting their fuse blocks?
>> --
>> Tom Sargent
>> RV-6A, firewall.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Toggle Switch Knob |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:34 AM 12/4/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: D Fritz <dfritzj@yahoo.com>
>
>I'd be interested in getting one of these as well. Also, while we're
>discussing switch ergonomics, does anyone know of a source of T-shaped
>landing light switches? All the commercial and military aircraft I've
>flown have these shaped so you can tell it's for the landing lights
>without looking.
>
>Dan Fritz
You can consider making your own switch enhancements like for landing
gear, flaps, etc. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Flap_Switch.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/FLAPS1.JPG
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/FLAPS2.JPG
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/FLAPS3.JPG
Delrin and aluminum are both excellent materials for carving special
knobs.
Bob . . .
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:17 AM 12/3/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
>
>I searched the archives for a response to this AOPA article from April
>2003 and found none. Anyone have an opinion about the practice of starting
>on battery only, with alternator turned off? Should we be starting with
>the alternator off?
>
>Thanks,
>Ned
>
>April 2003 Article "Charge It!" by Steven W. Ells
>
>(Second from last paragraph: )
>
>"Many pilots with split master switches have modified the owners manual
>starting procedure by leaving the alternator half of the switch in the Off
>position until after the start sequence. After starting, but before
>turning on any other equipment such as radios or lights, the pilot turns
>on the alternator half of the switch and checks for positive movement of
>the ammeter needle. This verifies that the charging system is online.
>Engine starting is a time when the contactors that control large current
>flows are opening and closing. The potential for large voltage spikes
>ripping through the electrical system is very high during this brief
>moment. Since rectifiers, switches, and other solid state devices are
>adversely affected by spikes, it's a good idea to isolate charging-system
>components during starting - unless you have a generator on your airplane."
Many folks are fond of the word "spike" . . . it has a really
sharp sound to it and conjures up images of weapons dating back
to medieval times and still popular in contemporary blood-n-gore
flicks. Needless to say, individuals with a mission of persuasion
that life will be better when you adopt some new behavior find
it useful to embellish their sermon with colorful words . . .
especially when those words underscore some sense of urgency
for heeding their advice.
I've been a student of the elusive "spike" for decades. I've
qualified dozens of new products both to withstand normal
bus transients and to limit their output of transients to
industry standard acceptable levels. I've observed many
dozens more suppliers jump the same hoops in order to prove
their products flightworthy.
It's not difficult to live in the world of DC power
generated on any vehicle. Let's examine cited paragraph
for what real data it offers:
"Many pilots with split master switches have modified the owners manual
starting procedure by leaving the alternator half of the switch in the Off
position until after the start sequence."
Hmmmm . . . this may indeed be factual . . . but he doesn't
say how anyone arrives at the conclusion that the factory
supplied, FAA approved owner's manual is deficient.
"After starting, but before turning on any other equipment such as radios
or lights, the pilot
turns on the alternator half of the switch . . .
What is the significance or importance of not turning anything
else on before turning on the alternator?
. . . and checks for positive movement of the ammeter needle. This verifies
that the charging system is on-line."
Of course, it's unlikely that his airplane has a low voltage
warning light. If he did, the light would be flashing all
during pre-flight and would go dark as soon as the alternator
comes up . . . an even better
Engine starting is a time when the contactors that control large current
flows are
opening and closing. The potential for large voltage spikes ripping through
the electrical system is very high during this brief moment.
Lots of un-quantified, un-substantiated repetition of ol'
pilot's tales. These words have been simmering in the pot
of aviation folklore ever since I can remember.
"Since rectifiers, switches, and other solid state devices are adversely
affected
by spikes, it's a good idea to isolate charging-system components during
starting
- unless you have a generator on your airplane."
Hmmm . . . this one is REALLY mystifying. The author seems to be
implying that leaving an alternator turned off during starting
has some benefit for protecting the alternator . . . a benefit
that generators do not need.
The alternator (or generator) control switch serves only to
disconnect the field excitation circuits from the system.
The only solid state devices "isolated" by leaving the alternator/
generator switch OFF are in the regulator. Modern regulators
for generators are solid state too. So, if the alternator's regulator
is to be "protected" by leaving the switch OFF, any modern
generator regulator would appreciate this benefit also. There
is no "isolating" benefit to the alternator itself for leaving
it off line during cranking.
I've seen individuals try to make a case for overshoot events
in alternator output voltage being hazardous if one starts the
engine with the alternator ON. I've studied both conditions and
there are subtle differences in start-up behavior but neither condition
represents a hazard to any of the ship's components.
Other individuals offer that the battery is already taxed
for getting the engine started . . . adding the extra load
represented by alternator field current is a significant performance
issue. Okay, 200+ amps to crank the engine and 3 amps to run
the alternator field at normal bus voltage - closer to 2 amps
during cranking. I'm not convinced that the engine or battery
will benefit from a 1% reduction in system loads during cranking
and the pilot is certainly not going to perceive any difference.
The oft cited spikes-of-evil-intent simply do not exist. Yes,
there are excursions of bus voltage in the course of NORMAL
operations of the airplane that every accessory is designed to
accommodate.
Bottom line is that all the articles one reads in the aviation
journals concerning this matter are simple repetitions of
unfounded blue smoke and folk-lore. You may operate your
alternator switch any way you wish but there is no foundation
in physics that make one methodology more desirable or
practical than the other.
Bob . . .
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: fuse block location |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@comcast.net>
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>At 08:15 AM 12/5/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent"
>><sarg314@comcast.net>
>>
>>You want your fuse blocks mounted in a place that is easy to get at.
>>Airplanes have darn few places that are easy to get at. I keep thinking
>>
>>
>>
>
> If it is your intention to make fuses accessible in flight,
> consider the probability that you're more likely to have an
> unhappy ending to the day by switching your attention from
> pilot duties so that you can hammer on an electrical problem.
> Design you system for failure tolerance and leave the toolbox
> closed until on the ground. The more INACCESSIBLE you make the
> fuseblock, the less likely it is to detract from your duties
> as pilot.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Bob:
No, if I intended to "fix" things in flight, I'd use circuit
breakers instead fuses. If a fuse blows, it's staying blown until I
land. But still, if I can make it easier to get to when I'm on the
ground that's, good too. Automobiles continually infuriate me with the
difficulty they present for repair. I ought to be able to do better
engineeering than that.
(Actually, if you take a tour thru the auto factory, you'll see why they
have that "layered" design - it goes together faster on the assembly
line that way. Each station is installing the next layer so nothing's
in the way. They're much more concerned with putting them together than
taking them apart.)
--
Tom Sargent
RV-6A
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> ... If you want to
> discover for yourself how well your alternator is cooled,
> you can easily thermocouple the critter and find out during
> your fly-off interval.
That sounds like a good idea. Adding a scat tube later would
not be a big deal if it is necessary.
Thanks,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
Hi Bob,
I have enjoyed attending your seminars and studying your book and when it is
fresh on my mind I am confident that I "get" it and then I go work on my
experimental panel. Then a few years pass and not being a daily user the
electrical theories get cloudy in my mind. Then I read an article like this
and think that maybe I remember things wrong. So thanks for the
reinforcement. What confused me is that the author of this article wrote in
the last paragraph to visit www.aerolectric.com for learning more. It would
seem that the Author is due a trip to the your web site.... It seems hard
to find a good journalist these days...
Your Fellow Aviation Enthusiast,
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Off During Start Up?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<b.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 11:17 AM 12/3/2004 -0600, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
> >
> >I searched the archives for a response to this AOPA article from April
> >2003 and found none. Anyone have an opinion about the practice of
starting
> >on battery only, with alternator turned off? Should we be starting with
> >the alternator off?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Ned
> >
> >April 2003 Article "Charge It!" by Steven W. Ells
> >
> >(Second from last paragraph: )
> >
> >"Many pilots with split master switches have modified the owners manual
> >starting procedure by leaving the alternator half of the switch in the
Off
> >position until after the start sequence. After starting, but before
> >turning on any other equipment such as radios or lights, the pilot turns
> >on the alternator half of the switch and checks for positive movement of
> >the ammeter needle. This verifies that the charging system is online.
> >Engine starting is a time when the contactors that control large current
> >flows are opening and closing. The potential for large voltage spikes
> >ripping through the electrical system is very high during this brief
> >moment. Since rectifiers, switches, and other solid state devices are
> >adversely affected by spikes, it's a good idea to isolate charging-system
> >components during starting - unless you have a generator on your
airplane."
>
> Many folks are fond of the word "spike" . . . it has a really
> sharp sound to it and conjures up images of weapons dating back
> to medieval times and still popular in contemporary blood-n-gore
> flicks. Needless to say, individuals with a mission of persuasion
> that life will be better when you adopt some new behavior find
> it useful to embellish their sermon with colorful words . . .
> especially when those words underscore some sense of urgency
> for heeding their advice.
>
> I've been a student of the elusive "spike" for decades. I've
> qualified dozens of new products both to withstand normal
> bus transients and to limit their output of transients to
> industry standard acceptable levels. I've observed many
> dozens more suppliers jump the same hoops in order to prove
> their products flightworthy.
>
> It's not difficult to live in the world of DC power
> generated on any vehicle. Let's examine cited paragraph
> for what real data it offers:
>
> "Many pilots with split master switches have modified the owners manual
> starting procedure by leaving the alternator half of the switch in the Off
> position until after the start sequence."
>
> Hmmmm . . . this may indeed be factual . . . but he doesn't
> say how anyone arrives at the conclusion that the factory
> supplied, FAA approved owner's manual is deficient.
>
> "After starting, but before turning on any other equipment such as radios
> or lights, the pilot
> turns on the alternator half of the switch . . .
>
> What is the significance or importance of not turning anything
> else on before turning on the alternator?
>
> . . . and checks for positive movement of the ammeter needle. This
verifies
> that the charging system is on-line."
>
> Of course, it's unlikely that his airplane has a low voltage
> warning light. If he did, the light would be flashing all
> during pre-flight and would go dark as soon as the alternator
> comes up . . . an even better
>
> Engine starting is a time when the contactors that control large current
> flows are
> opening and closing. The potential for large voltage spikes ripping
through
> the electrical system is very high during this brief moment.
>
> Lots of un-quantified, un-substantiated repetition of ol'
> pilot's tales. These words have been simmering in the pot
> of aviation folklore ever since I can remember.
>
> "Since rectifiers, switches, and other solid state devices are adversely
> affected
> by spikes, it's a good idea to isolate charging-system components during
> starting
> - unless you have a generator on your airplane."
>
> Hmmm . . . this one is REALLY mystifying. The author seems to be
> implying that leaving an alternator turned off during starting
> has some benefit for protecting the alternator . . . a benefit
> that generators do not need.
>
> The alternator (or generator) control switch serves only to
> disconnect the field excitation circuits from the system.
> The only solid state devices "isolated" by leaving the alternator/
> generator switch OFF are in the regulator. Modern regulators
> for generators are solid state too. So, if the alternator's regulator
> is to be "protected" by leaving the switch OFF, any modern
> generator regulator would appreciate this benefit also. There
> is no "isolating" benefit to the alternator itself for leaving
> it off line during cranking.
>
> I've seen individuals try to make a case for overshoot events
> in alternator output voltage being hazardous if one starts the
> engine with the alternator ON. I've studied both conditions and
> there are subtle differences in start-up behavior but neither
condition
> represents a hazard to any of the ship's components.
>
> Other individuals offer that the battery is already taxed
> for getting the engine started . . . adding the extra load
> represented by alternator field current is a significant performance
> issue. Okay, 200+ amps to crank the engine and 3 amps to run
> the alternator field at normal bus voltage - closer to 2 amps
> during cranking. I'm not convinced that the engine or battery
> will benefit from a 1% reduction in system loads during cranking
> and the pilot is certainly not going to perceive any difference.
> The oft cited spikes-of-evil-intent simply do not exist. Yes,
> there are excursions of bus voltage in the course of NORMAL
> operations of the airplane that every accessory is designed to
> accommodate.
>
> Bottom line is that all the articles one reads in the aviation
> journals concerning this matter are simple repetitions of
> unfounded blue smoke and folk-lore. You may operate your
> alternator switch any way you wish but there is no foundation
> in physics that make one methodology more desirable or
> practical than the other.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:44 AM 12/4/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
>
><<Automobiles live with a thing called "load dump" or "load dump transient,"
>where if something shuts off or a wire breaks, the alternator output voltage
>will jump way up momentarily. I forget if they design to 40 or 70 volts,
>and somewhere in the car or an accessory is a huge zener to limit
>overvoltage beyond that.>>
This is an event un-related to position of the switch during startup.
>I think when push comes to shove I believe the average car will have a
>slightly "quieter" electrical system than a plane. Since weight is not an
>issue they have a much larger battery and larger-gage ground wires, both of
>which tend to keep voltage transients down.
But finer wires, they're still fond of flooded batteries and
they don't use single point ground systems.
An RV with a less than year-old RG battery and 4AWG or larger
fat-wires and ground system like Z-15 would give most automobiles
a really good run for their money with respect to noise. Howver,
BOTH vehicles will have noise and transient signatures well within
the operating limitations of accessories designed to live on
airplanes.
> Although, since we supply
>electronic components to the auto industry we are constantly being surprised
>with weird glitches that - of course - are all our fault. The "load dump"
>phenomena is caused by the inductance of the field in the alternator -
>imagine the alternator cranking out full current to supply a load and then
>that load is suddenly removed. The voltage regulator senses the increasing
>system voltage and shuts off the field. However, the field, being created
>by a large coil of wire surrounding an iron core, can't be instantly
>changed, so the alternator continues to produce now-excess current until the
>field current decays, which takes 10's of milliseconds. The effect is
>usually very slight as the battery serves to hold the voltage at a
>near-constant level, absorbing the momentary excess current. The load dump
>that causes big problems is when there is an open circuit at the battery and
>in this case there is nothing that will absorb the current that was being
>taken by the battery, whereupon the system voltage can rise to over 100
>volts. Automotive systems are designed to survive this type of voltage
>transient even though it is quite rare. No, there is nothing in an
>automotive system specifically designed to ABSORB that transient -
>everything is designed to TOLERATE it. No "huge zener."
The "huge zener" or Transorb is a practical consideration.
I'm still waiting the data from testing in progress to help
us define the size and characteristics of such a device.
><<I have a high compression 540 and
>long starter leads. Several times I've had difficulty starting the engine
>with the alt. field on. When I turn the field off it seems to crank faster
>and starts easily. Is the alt putting a lot of drag on the engine when the
>voltage drops on cranking?>>
>
>The alternator is putting negligible torque on the engine during cranking,
>but it does draw a few amps (less than 5 as I recall). Would this make the
>difference? I've found that the usual "observation" is that the starter has
>trouble torquing the engine over the first compression stroke so the driver
>tries a couple of times (then shuts off the alternator?). By that time the
>compression pressure has leaked down sufficiently so that it will go past
>the first compression and the rest are easy as there is some momentum built
>up by then.
Good call . . . as mentioned in another post, the 3A or less
current draw by energizing the alternator field during cranking
is a tiny percentage of total battery draw. It's unlikely that
anyone's perception of "slower cranking due to energized alternator"
is real.
>And by the way, in passenger cars the alternator is "on" during cranking.
>Most of the accessories are turned off during cranking to reduce battery
>load, NOT to protect them against any mythical voltage transients.
Cars with two-wire alternators (b-lead and control lead) get a
ready-to-load signal from the EFI system after the engine is running.
My '90 Voyager would delay as much as two seconds after releasing
the start switch before the bus voltage would suddenly jump up. Once
turned on by the control lead, they cannot be turned off by this
same lead, hence the need for special treatment of alternators with
built in regulators as depicted in figure Z-24.
>Incidentally, according to the wiring diagram my Cessna was originally
>equipped with a relay in the avionics bus that shut it off during cranking -
>long since removed.
Yeah, the reliability of the power relay was pretty low compared to
the manual avionics switch. Many of our larger aircraft have
avionics master relays mostly because the "avionics" suite draws
too much current to be controlled by a panel mounted switch. I'll have
to go look at the wirebooks and see if we auto-disconnect the avionics
when a starter is energized.
Bob . . .
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: fuse block location |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 12/05/2004 9:51:23 AM Central Standard Time,
mick-matronics@rv8.ch writes:
Good question. I have not yet decided exactly where I will put
mine, but one question I have is do fuses blow very often?
>>>
My fuse blocks are on a swing-down panel on the pax side- came in real handy
when I was blowing flap fuses during test phase. I could swing down the panel
and connect meter for current readings while using flaps in flight for
t-shooting. (before y'all start bitching, it's kinda hard to simulate real air
loads on flaps on the ground!) I also rigged an LED on a long lead
alligator-clipped to the fuse output and taped to the top of the glareshield so
I could tell
exactly when the fuse went t**s up. (wound up being the flap switch was
slightly loose and was also close enough to a ground that it would rotate a bit
on
application and short a terminal)
Other benefit is it's just darn handy not having to stand on my head to get
to stuff when necessary...
From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark -RV-6A, 130 hours on a Z-11 and working great (confirmed Nuckollhead)
8-)
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Stereo Headphone jacks |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 03:59 PM 12/3/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gary Liming <gary@liming.org>
>
>
>Sorry if this information has been previously covered, but a search in the
>archives didn't turn up an answer to the following two questions:
>
>1. When a mono headset is plugged into a stereo jack, one of the channels
>gets grounded (gets connected to the plug sleeve, which also is the jack
>ground.) I am using the Stereo Iso Amp of Aeroelectric Connection to drive
>the phones, so is it ok for the amp to run for long periods with one of the
>channels like this? (Most of the time there will be stereo phones used,
>but I am building a 4 seater, and the rear seats may have to accommodate an
>occasional mono headset.)
Why not install two headset jacks. One for stereo and the other for
mono? Mount them side-by-side and labeled as to their functionality
so that you can use a mix of headsets without having one mono headset
kill one channel for the other stereo headsets.
>2. When wiring the stereo jacks, does the audio ground really need to be
>separate from the shield? In other words, is 3 conductor wire + shield
>necessary, or will 2 conductor + shield be just as noise immune? Note, I
>am not grounding the shield locally, it is run back for connection to the
>amp, and the jacks are isolated from frame ground.
You can do as you've suggested with two-wire shielded or run an
unshielded twisted trio and it will work just fine too.
Bob . . .
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Toggle Switch Knob |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:40 AM 12/3/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" <james@berkut13.com>
>
>All,
>
>I have a MS24659-21A toggle switch being used for the landing gear select
>switch. It's the lock up/lock down variety toggle switch with the large
>"bat" lever. I have seen small "gear wheel" shaped knobs (a little over an
>1" in diameter) that can be attached to the switch lever itself making the
>assembly look like a production gear selector switch. I would like to add
>that to my bird.
>
>Does anyone know a part number or where to search for that "wheel shaped"
>knob to fit that style toggle switch?
>
>You can see what my current install looks like at:
>http://www.berkut13.com/intior35.jpg
You can make one in a few minutes with a band saw and belt sander
you can make one from a chunk of aluminum or machineable plastic
like the example I show in:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Flap_Switch.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/FLAPS1.JPG
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/FLAPS2.JPG
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/FLAPS3.JPG
Bob . . .
Message 27
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DonVS" <dsvs@comcast.net>
I find that double sided velcro works great. It is reusable and easy to
remove. It is a little pricy at first but if you are building a complicated
system you may spend more cutting of tie wraps each time you add a wire.
Just my .02. Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
KITFOXZ@aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bread Bag Ties?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KITFOXZ@aol.com
I goofed, try this for vinyl twist ties. 10 inch length are good.
_http://www.chiswick.com//searchresults.asp?searchtype=Basic&searchstring=vi
ny
l+twist+ties&cpage=2_
(http://www.chiswick.com//searchresults.asp?searchtype=Basic&searchstring=vi
nyl+twist+ties&cpage=2)
John P. Marzluf
Columbus, Ohio
Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: E-Bus Usage Procedure / Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 12/05/2004 11:53:07 AM Central Standard Time,
dan@rvproject.com writes:
Do you mean to say the 0.7V drop won't cause a *noticeable* affect
>>>>
One thing I've *noticed* is that Bobs LVWM light will occasionally illuminate
during idle (on e-bus). If I switch the e-bus on the ALT light goes out!
Tells me the LVWM is doing its job and monitored voltage is totally deceased
testicles....... 8-)
From The PossumWorks in (where else) TN
Mark - do not archive
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 02:58 PM 12/5/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>I have enjoyed attending your seminars and studying your book and when it is
>fresh on my mind I am confident that I "get" it and then I go work on my
>experimental panel. Then a few years pass and not being a daily user the
>electrical theories get cloudy in my mind. Then I read an article like this
>and think that maybe I remember things wrong. So thanks for the
>reinforcement. What confused me is that the author of this article wrote in
>the last paragraph to visit www.aerolectric.com for learning more. It would
>seem that the Author is due a trip to the your web site.... It seems hard
>to find a good journalist these days...
>
>Your Fellow Aviation Enthusiast,
>Ned
Thanks for the kind words and for the heads-up on the website
citation in the article. This is not the first time someone has
produced an article short on simple-ideas and long on traditional
folklore and then cited my website as a useful reference! I appreciate
the links but I hope people are not disappointed when they find
that the website is not very supportive of the original article.
It makes you wonder if they've really looked over what the website
has to offer or just echoed the suggestion of some search-engine.
I had an interesting experience a few weeks ago. A very earnest
young lady called me hopeful of selling me a service that guaranteed
to put my website into the top-ten listings of popular search-engines
based on twenty key-words of my own choosing. The service was a bargain
at $5,000!
I thought about it for awhile and couldn't really come up with
twenty keywords. I suggested bob nuckolls, aeroelectric connection,
and aircraft electrical systems. She was sitting at her computer
running through all the popular search engines and was surprised
to report that aeroelectric.com was already ensconced in the top
ten for all of those search terms. I suggested and she had to agree
that she could not offer much improvement on the status quo and that
my money would not be well spent.
Problem is that in spite of accommodating search engines, the website
has too much material to access randomly. I've got a project outlined
to organize and index the articles sometime this winter.
Bob . . .
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
>To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Off During Start Up?
>
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
><b.nuckolls@cox.net>
> >
> > At 11:17 AM 12/3/2004 -0600, you wrote:
> > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
> > >
> > >I searched the archives for a response to this AOPA article from April
> > >2003 and found none. Anyone have an opinion about the practice of
>starting
> > >on battery only, with alternator turned off? Should we be starting with
> > >the alternator off?
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > >Ned
> > >
> > >April 2003 Article "Charge It!" by Steven W. Ells
> > >
> > >(Second from last paragraph: )
> > >
> > >"Many pilots with split master switches have modified the owners manual
> > >starting procedure by leaving the alternator half of the switch in the
>Off
> > >position until after the start sequence. After starting, but before
> > >turning on any other equipment such as radios or lights, the pilot turns
> > >on the alternator half of the switch and checks for positive movement of
> > >the ammeter needle. This verifies that the charging system is online.
> > >Engine starting is a time when the contactors that control large current
> > >flows are opening and closing. The potential for large voltage spikes
> > >ripping through the electrical system is very high during this brief
> > >moment. Since rectifiers, switches, and other solid state devices are
> > >adversely affected by spikes, it's a good idea to isolate charging-system
> > >components during starting - unless you have a generator on your
>airplane."
> >
> > Many folks are fond of the word "spike" . . . it has a really
> > sharp sound to it and conjures up images of weapons dating back
> > to medieval times and still popular in contemporary blood-n-gore
> > flicks. Needless to say, individuals with a mission of persuasion
> > that life will be better when you adopt some new behavior find
> > it useful to embellish their sermon with colorful words . . .
> > especially when those words underscore some sense of urgency
> > for heeding their advice.
> >
> > I've been a student of the elusive "spike" for decades. I've
> > qualified dozens of new products both to withstand normal
> > bus transients and to limit their output of transients to
> > industry standard acceptable levels. I've observed many
> > dozens more suppliers jump the same hoops in order to prove
> > their products flightworthy.
> >
> > It's not difficult to live in the world of DC power
> > generated on any vehicle. Let's examine cited paragraph
> > for what real data it offers:
> >
> > "Many pilots with split master switches have modified the owners manual
> > starting procedure by leaving the alternator half of the switch in the Off
> > position until after the start sequence."
> >
> > Hmmmm . . . this may indeed be factual . . . but he doesn't
> > say how anyone arrives at the conclusion that the factory
> > supplied, FAA approved owner's manual is deficient.
> >
> > "After starting, but before turning on any other equipment such as radios
> > or lights, the pilot
> > turns on the alternator half of the switch . . .
> >
> > What is the significance or importance of not turning anything
> > else on before turning on the alternator?
> >
> > . . . and checks for positive movement of the ammeter needle. This
>verifies
> > that the charging system is on-line."
> >
> > Of course, it's unlikely that his airplane has a low voltage
> > warning light. If he did, the light would be flashing all
> > during pre-flight and would go dark as soon as the alternator
> > comes up . . . an even better
> >
> > Engine starting is a time when the contactors that control large current
> > flows are
> > opening and closing. The potential for large voltage spikes ripping
>through
> > the electrical system is very high during this brief moment.
> >
> > Lots of un-quantified, un-substantiated repetition of ol'
> > pilot's tales. These words have been simmering in the pot
> > of aviation folklore ever since I can remember.
> >
> > "Since rectifiers, switches, and other solid state devices are adversely
> > affected
> > by spikes, it's a good idea to isolate charging-system components during
> > starting
> > - unless you have a generator on your airplane."
> >
> > Hmmm . . . this one is REALLY mystifying. The author seems to be
> > implying that leaving an alternator turned off during starting
> > has some benefit for protecting the alternator . . . a benefit
> > that generators do not need.
> >
> > The alternator (or generator) control switch serves only to
> > disconnect the field excitation circuits from the system.
> > The only solid state devices "isolated" by leaving the alternator/
> > generator switch OFF are in the regulator. Modern regulators
> > for generators are solid state too. So, if the alternator's regulator
> > is to be "protected" by leaving the switch OFF, any modern
> > generator regulator would appreciate this benefit also. There
> > is no "isolating" benefit to the alternator itself for leaving
> > it off line during cranking.
> >
> > I've seen individuals try to make a case for overshoot events
> > in alternator output voltage being hazardous if one starts the
> > engine with the alternator ON. I've studied both conditions and
> > there are subtle differences in start-up behavior but neither
>condition
> > represents a hazard to any of the ship's components.
> >
> > Other individuals offer that the battery is already taxed
> > for getting the engine started . . . adding the extra load
> > represented by alternator field current is a significant performance
> > issue. Okay, 200+ amps to crank the engine and 3 amps to run
> > the alternator field at normal bus voltage - closer to 2 amps
> > during cranking. I'm not convinced that the engine or battery
> > will benefit from a 1% reduction in system loads during cranking
> > and the pilot is certainly not going to perceive any difference.
> > The oft cited spikes-of-evil-intent simply do not exist. Yes,
> > there are excursions of bus voltage in the course of NORMAL
> > operations of the airplane that every accessory is designed to
> > accommodate.
> >
> > Bottom line is that all the articles one reads in the aviation
> > journals concerning this matter are simple repetitions of
> > unfounded blue smoke and folk-lore. You may operate your
> > alternator switch any way you wish but there is no foundation
> > in physics that make one methodology more desirable or
> > practical than the other.
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
>
>
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Stereo Headphone jacks |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 12/05/2004 3:19:35 PM Central Standard Time,
b.nuckolls@cox.net writes:
Why not install two headset jacks. One for stereo and the other for
mono? Mount them side-by-side and labeled as to their functionality
>>>>>
As an additional idiot-proof (something I need more&more of lately!) I
installed a "transfer" jack for the "mono" position and a spring-loaded cover on
the
stereo jack- you have to really try hard to short the sucker out! I'll send
you off-list an ACAD (R14) of my setup (Microair 760 with your audio iso amp
and stereo music source)
Mark
Message 31
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| Subject: | Single mag, single elec ign operation |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve & Denise" <sjhdcl@kingston.net>
Reference RV7A with IO-360.
I'm planning a single mag and single Plasma III elec ign.
I would like to use the popular keyed ignition switch used with dual mag
systems.
Is this possible with a single elec ign setup or will I require a separate
switch to power the elec ign?
Are there any benefits of doing it either way?
Steve
RV7A #2
Message 32
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| Subject: | Single mag, single elec ign operation |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Chalmers" <David@ChalmersFamily.com>
My Plasma II 'Plus' ignition specifically supports control from a keyswitch. You
power the unit directly from the battery bus (i.e. always on) and connect the
control wire to the key switch. When the control wire is grounded the unit shuts
off and draws no power from the battery. I imagine the Plasma III has the
same functionality, maybe with the 'Plus' option if they still have such a thing.
David Chalmers
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve & Denise [mailto:sjhdcl@kingston.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Single mag, single elec ign operation
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve & Denise" <sjhdcl@kingston.net>
Reference RV7A with IO-360.
I'm planning a single mag and single Plasma III elec ign.
I would like to use the popular keyed ignition switch used with dual mag
systems.
Is this possible with a single elec ign setup or will I require a separate
switch to power the elec ign?
Are there any benefits of doing it either way?
Steve
RV7A #2
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: fuse block location |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bobby Hester <bhester@hopkinsville.net>
thomas a. sargent wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@comcast.net>
>
>So, where/how are people mounting their fuse blocks?
>--
>Tom Sargent
>RV-6A, firewall.
>
>
>
I'm using an Affordable Panels instrument panel and mounting the main
and essential fuse buss where they can be accessed easily.
http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/FinishKitAssyPg3.html
--
Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY
Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/
RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-)
Message 34
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| Subject: | Single mag, single elec ign operation |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
Steve,
We have such a setup on our RV6 .. the keyswitch is used just as with two
mags. Our electronic ignition is from Jeff Rose. (I am also building an RV6A
and it has a Lightspeed EI).
Jeff suggested that I **also** add a switch to switch off the power to the
unit after shutdown (originally it was wired "hot" (through a fuse) and was
controlled by the "mag switch). I think his reasoning was that the internals
might last longer if they weren't always sitting there with an internal
charge or something. Worked fine before. Added additonal switch and it works
fine afterwards.
I have the drawings from Klaus on using the keyswitch but they are at the
airport.
James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Steve
> & Denise
> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 6:51 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Single mag, single elec ign operation
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve & Denise"
> <sjhdcl@kingston.net>
>
> Reference RV7A with IO-360.
>
> I'm planning a single mag and single Plasma III elec ign.
>
> I would like to use the popular keyed ignition switch used with dual mag
> systems.
>
> Is this possible with a single elec ign setup or will I require a separate
> switch to power the elec ign?
>
> Are there any benefits of doing it either way?
>
> Steve
> RV7A #2
>
>
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: E-Bus Usage Procedure / Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bobby Hester <bhester@hopkinsville.net>
Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
>
>
>>From The PossumWorks in (where else) TN
>Mark - do not archive
>
>
>
>From The PossumWorks in (where else) TN - Flight suit by Oshkosh B Gosh
Mark - do not archive
:-)
--
Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY
Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/
RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-)
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: E-Bus Usage Procedure / Question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 12/05/2004 6:58:50 PM Central Standard Time,
bhester@hopkinsville.net writes:
Flight suit by Oshkosh B Gosh
uhhh, Hi Bobby- them be Big Bens, dontchaknow..................
Mark - damn big grin & do not archive!
Message 37
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|
| Subject: | Re: Alternator Off During Start Up? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
Does anyone know of a source for temperature sensitive stick-on tabs that
might be useful for determining physical item and area temperatures? I think
such a things exist. I wonder if it could be of use in the cowling
environment?
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Off During Start Up?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
> <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>
>> ... If you want to
>> discover for yourself how well your alternator is cooled,
>> you can easily thermocouple the critter and find out during
>> your fly-off interval.
>
> That sounds like a good idea. Adding a scat tube later would
> not be a big deal if it is necessary.
>
> Thanks,
> Mickey
>
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
>
Message 38
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|
| Subject: | E bus switching. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" <rob@robsglass.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-Bus Usage Procedure / Question
"Matthew,
Yes, you got it...but...I always fly with my E-Bus switch ON. Constantly.
That way it's just one switch flip if and when the alternator dies, and
voltage to my "essentials" (some of which need initialization time, such as
the GPS) is NOT interrupted.
If you fly with the E-Bus switch ON all the time, when the alternator dies,
flip the master switch all the way off and keep flying.
Plus, this way, the devices on the E-Bus theoretically don't see the voltage
drop they otherwise would if the E-Bus was being fed through the diode. The
E-Bus is being fed from the battery bus (I think!).
Hope this makes sense, and please correct me if I'm wrong.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com"
Dan I'm probably asking a dumb question here but since this seems O.K to me why
do we bother with a switch for the e-bus. Why not hard wire this circuit to
be on continuously.
If it is deemed necessary an lED could be used as an annunciator to monitor that
the circuit is active.
Message 39
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|
| Subject: | Re: Bread Bag Ties? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
After trying some of the things recently mentioned I settled on using
colorless nylon spiral wrap that comes in several diameters.
I picked a size that most suited the application then cut off pieces three
to four coils long. These short sections were then temporarily coiled around
the wire bundles at various locations.
In use I could either uncoil the spiral wrap section somewhat or most often
just push the wire through inside the spiral wrap section. Because the
spiral wrap sections are almost clear and short, patching in additional
wires was quite easy.
A helpful suggestion is to trim the corners off (round off) the ends so that
they don't catch on the wires in the growing wire bundles. Using one of
these sections while tying the finished bundles also helped, (tie next to
the bundle, push the spiral wrap ahead, tie again and so on)
Per foot this product was not a cost consideration.
I got the product from bulk supply at a local area electronics supplier.
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "DonVS" <dsvs@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Bread Bag Ties?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DonVS" <dsvs@comcast.net>
>
> I find that double sided velcro works great. It is reusable and easy to
> remove. It is a little pricy at first but if you are building a
> complicated
> system you may spend more cutting of tie wraps each time you add a wire.
> Just my .02. Don
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> KITFOXZ@aol.com
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bread Bag Ties?
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KITFOXZ@aol.com
>
> I goofed, try this for vinyl twist ties. 10 inch length are good.
>
> _http://www.chiswick.com//searchresults.asp?searchtype=Basic&searchstring=vi
> ny
> l+twist+ties&cpage=2_
> (http://www.chiswick.com//searchresults.asp?searchtype=Basic&searchstring=vi
> nyl+twist+ties&cpage=2)
>
>
> John P. Marzluf
> Columbus, Ohio
> Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
>
>
>
Message 40
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|
| Subject: | Alternator Off During Start Up? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut@engalt.com>
They do exist and I have seen them although I am not sure where to get them,
but thank you for solving my problem of making sure the EGT gauge is on the
hottest cylinder without having to keep moving it around.
I know that there are some types that change color and stay the color at the
max temp seen. I have seen them in lower temp ranges in shipping supply
catalogs and seen higher temp ranges other places. Edmund scientific maybe?
Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim
Jewell
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Off During Start Up?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
Does anyone know of a source for temperature sensitive stick-on tabs that
might be useful for determining physical item and area temperatures? I think
such a things exist. I wonder if it could be of use in the cowling
environment?
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Off During Start Up?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
> <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>
>> ... If you want to
>> discover for yourself how well your alternator is cooled,
>> you can easily thermocouple the critter and find out during
>> your fly-off interval.
>
> That sounds like a good idea. Adding a scat tube later would
> not be a big deal if it is necessary.
>
> Thanks,
> Mickey
>
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
Message 41
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|
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
List,
Figure Z-11 shows an awg 22 wire running from the battery contactor to the
master switch. As my battery is in the tail, this wire will be about 14 ft
long. Generally one would want to increase wire size for a longer run due
to voltage drop, but I can't see that being an issue here.
Any recommendations or opinions to the contrary?
Thanks,
Grant
Message 42
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|
| Subject: | Small Wire, Big Ring Terminal |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
Hello Again List,
The awg 16 wire from the battery contactor to the main battery bus requires
a 5/16" ring terminal on one end (at least that's what size my contactor
has), but I can't find a terminal that large for a wire that small. What is
the best solution?
My current best guess would be to just strip off extra wire & double it back
to fill the next size larger terminal like Bob's shop notes say to do for an
awg 24 fuselink. Any comments?
Thanks again,
Grant
Message 43
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|
| Subject: | Re: E bus switching. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> Dan I'm probably asking a dumb question here but since this seems
> O.K to me why do we bother with a switch for the e-bus. Why not
> hard wire this circuit to be on continuously.
> If it is deemed necessary an lED could be used as an annunciator to
> monitor that the circuit is active.
Study the "Z" diagrams...the e-bus switch feeds from the "always hot" bus.
If there were no switch, what would ever turn the e-bus power off? ;-)
do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 44
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|
| Subject: | Small Wire, Big Ring Terminal |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <khurst@taroom.qld.gov.au>
Grant,
B & C Specialty have what you are looking for.
Try http://www.bandc.biz/parts.html and look under Insulated Terminals
Listed is 14-16 awg Ring Terminal 5/16" stud
Regards
Kingsley Hurst in Oz.
Message 45
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Franck ILMAIN" <f_ilmain@hotmail.com>
Anyone know where to find or have a user manual for a KMA 20 ?
Message 46
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|
| Subject: | Re: Small Wire, Big Ring Terminal |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
Use the proper terminal. They are available for 16 gauge wire from
Digikey up to 1/2" stud size and from B&C to 5/16" as well as from
several other sources. They are made by AMP in their PIDG series so
presumably would be available through most AMP distributors.
Bob McC
Tinne maha wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
>
>Hello Again List,
>
>The awg 16 wire from the battery contactor to the main battery bus requires
>a 5/16" ring terminal on one end (at least that's what size my contactor
>has), but I can't find a terminal that large for a wire that small. What is
>the best solution?
>
>My current best guess would be to just strip off extra wire & double it back
>to fill the next size larger terminal like Bob's shop notes say to do for an
>awg 24 fuselink. Any comments?
>
> Thanks again,
> Grant
>
>
Message 47
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|
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Franz Fux" <franz@lastfrontierheli.com>
Hi Jim,
Which supplier are you talking about,
Franz in Vernon
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim
Jewell
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bread Bag Ties?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
After trying some of the things recently mentioned I settled on using
colorless nylon spiral wrap that comes in several diameters.
I picked a size that most suited the application then cut off pieces three
to four coils long. These short sections were then temporarily coiled around
the wire bundles at various locations.
In use I could either uncoil the spiral wrap section somewhat or most often
just push the wire through inside the spiral wrap section. Because the
spiral wrap sections are almost clear and short, patching in additional
wires was quite easy.
A helpful suggestion is to trim the corners off (round off) the ends so that
they don't catch on the wires in the growing wire bundles. Using one of
these sections while tying the finished bundles also helped, (tie next to
the bundle, push the spiral wrap ahead, tie again and so on)
Per foot this product was not a cost consideration.
I got the product from bulk supply at a local area electronics supplier.
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "DonVS" <dsvs@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Bread Bag Ties?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DonVS" <dsvs@comcast.net>
>
> I find that double sided velcro works great. It is reusable and easy to
> remove. It is a little pricy at first but if you are building a
> complicated
> system you may spend more cutting of tie wraps each time you add a wire.
> Just my .02. Don
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
> KITFOXZ@aol.com
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bread Bag Ties?
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KITFOXZ@aol.com
>
> I goofed, try this for vinyl twist ties. 10 inch length are good.
>
>
_http://www.chiswick.com//searchresults.asp?searchtype=Basic&searchstring=vi
> ny
> l+twist+ties&cpage=2_
>
(http://www.chiswick.com//searchresults.asp?searchtype=Basic&searchstring=vi
> nyl+twist+ties&cpage=2)
>
>
> John P. Marzluf
> Columbus, Ohio
> Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
>
>
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Message 48
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|
| Subject: | Re: Bread Bag Ties? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
Hi Franz,
Interior Eelectronics
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Franz Fux" <franz@lastfrontierheli.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Bread Bag Ties?
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Franz Fux"
> <franz@lastfrontierheli.com>
>
> Hi Jim,
> Which supplier are you talking about,
> Franz in Vernon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim
> Jewell
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bread Bag Ties?
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
>
> After trying some of the things recently mentioned I settled on using
> colorless nylon spiral wrap that comes in several diameters.
> I picked a size that most suited the application then cut off pieces three
> to four coils long. These short sections were then temporarily coiled
> around
> the wire bundles at various locations.
>
> In use I could either uncoil the spiral wrap section somewhat or most
> often
> just push the wire through inside the spiral wrap section. Because the
> spiral wrap sections are almost clear and short, patching in additional
> wires was quite easy.
> A helpful suggestion is to trim the corners off (round off) the ends so
> that
> they don't catch on the wires in the growing wire bundles. Using one of
> these sections while tying the finished bundles also helped, (tie next to
> the bundle, push the spiral wrap ahead, tie again and so on)
> Per foot this product was not a cost consideration.
> I got the product from bulk supply at a local area electronics supplier.
>
> Jim in Kelowna
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DonVS" <dsvs@comcast.net>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Bread Bag Ties?
>
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DonVS" <dsvs@comcast.net>
>>
>> I find that double sided velcro works great. It is reusable and easy to
>> remove. It is a little pricy at first but if you are building a
>> complicated
>> system you may spend more cutting of tie wraps each time you add a wire.
>> Just my .02. Don
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
>> KITFOXZ@aol.com
>> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Bread Bag Ties?
>>
>>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: KITFOXZ@aol.com
>>
>> I goofed, try this for vinyl twist ties. 10 inch length are good.
>>
>>
> _http://www.chiswick.com//searchresults.asp?searchtype=Basic&searchstring=vi
>> ny
>> l+twist+ties&cpage=2_
>>
> (http://www.chiswick.com//searchresults.asp?searchtype=Basic&searchstring=vi
>> nyl+twist+ties&cpage=2)
>>
>>
>> John P. Marzluf
>> Columbus, Ohio
>> Kitfox Outback (out back in the garage)
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>
>
>
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