Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:45 AM - Re: Kx 125 problem (Brian Lloyd)
2. 04:45 AM - Re: Kx 125 problem (Brian Lloyd)
3. 04:49 AM - Re: Heated Pitot Tubes (Brian Lloyd)
4. 04:57 AM - Re: Mic talk switch (Brian Lloyd)
5. 05:01 AM - Re: Kx 125 problem (Larry Bowen)
6. 05:04 AM - Re: MB splitter (Brian Lloyd)
7. 06:44 AM - MB splitter (Glen Matejcek)
8. 07:46 AM - Re: Cookin bosch relays (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 08:49 AM - Re: Cookin bosch relays (Gilles Thesee)
10. 09:16 AM - Re: Cookin bosch relays (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
11. 11:22 AM - Re: Phosphor-Bronze washers? (Ronald J. Parigoris)
12. 11:40 AM - Re: Load dump and shutdown procedures (Paul Messinger)
13. 01:58 PM - Re: Cookin bosch relays (william mills)
14. 04:14 PM - Re: MB splitter (Paul McAllister)
15. 05:52 PM - Heated Pitot Tubes ()
16. 06:09 PM - Re: Phosphor-Bronze washers? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 06:15 PM - Re: Load dump and shutdown procedures (Jerzy Krasinski)
18. 06:32 PM - Certification List ()
19. 06:33 PM - Re: Load dump and shutdown procedures (Jon Finley)
20. 06:41 PM - Seatbelts In Amateur Built Experimental Aircraft ()
21. 07:04 PM - Re: Cookin bosch relays (Dww0708@aol.com)
22. 07:07 PM - Re: Cookin bosch relays (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 07:25 PM - Re: Load dump and shutdown procedures (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
24. 07:32 PM - Re: Zeftronics Regulators? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
25. 09:24 PM - Re: Cookin bosch relays (Matt Prather)
26. 09:29 PM - Re: Load dump and shutdown procedures (George Braly)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Kx 125 problem |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
On Jan 10, 2005, at 1:54 PM, Larry Bowen wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen"
> <Larry@BowenAero.com>
>
> Reminds me of an option on my SL30, which may or may not apply to the
> kx125. Anyway, on the SL30 you can set it up so that the two audios,
> comm
> and nav, mix. Once I realized this I set my nav mix setting (probably
> called something else in the manual) zero, and my noise went away.
Are you using only a single audio output from your SL-30 or do you have
an audio panel? The mix setting is so that you can hear and ID the nav
station using only the standard headphone or speaker audio output from
the comm. If you have an audio panel then you should set this value to
zero because the audio panel handles the audio for the nav.
BTW, you are supposed to verify the morse ID of the station if you are
using VOR or LOC. Just because we have GPS doesn't mean you can ignore
VOR ... yet.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Kx 125 problem |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
On Jan 10, 2005, at 1:59 PM, Matt Prather wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather"
> <mprather@spro.net>
>
> Have you checked for the hiss when you have the NAV tuned to a
> frequency that allows for good reception of a local VOR transmitter?
> With the NAV volume control turned up, you should here the VOR
> station transmitted in Morse code. If the NAV isn't actually receiving
> a VOR signal, it is normal to here static when the NAV volume is
> turned up. Does that make sense?
Yes, this is correct.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Heated Pitot Tubes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
On Jan 10, 2005, at 1:29 PM, BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
> Most IFR is not done in icing conditions.
Right.
> There is valid reasoning that says using pitot heat, if available, may
> help
> reduce the amount of moisture that gets into the pitot system, but many
> airplanes have flown many hours in heavy precipitation without pitot
> heat.
And that is not the purpose of pitot heat anyway.
> On those rare occasions when a little ice is encountered when not
> planned, a
> small stable airplane like a Pacer is no problem at all. An RV or a
> Lancair
> would probably be a bit more difficult to handle, but it should be just
> another of those decisions that are made by the operator, not one that
> is forced
> upon us by regulation.
I agree. After ice modifies your airfoil none of the markings on your
ASI have any meaning any more. You are a test pilot flying a new
airfoil and you are going to have to fly it by feel anyway. You might
be better off without an ASI at that point.
But you are definitely better off getting your butt out of the icing
conditions.
>
> Just my comments!
And I agree with 'em.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Mic talk switch |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
On Jan 10, 2005, at 5:42 PM, GEORGE INMAN wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "GEORGE INMAN"
> <ghinman@allstream.net>
>
> This may be a dumb question,
> but if there is only one push to talk switch
> for a headset.what do you do if you only
> want to talk to a pasenger and not
> transmit on the radio?
I suspect you are using one of those strap-on PTT switches that get
used in airplanes that do not have PTT buttons on the stick, yoke, or
throttle. I don't know about now but many of those used to be DPST
switches with one pole activating the PTT circuit and the other
connecting the mic to the mic circuit.
The solution to using this type of PTT is to modify it so that the pole
for the mic audio is bypassed and always connected. I had to modify the
David Clark and Telex PTT buttons I have used in the past. Again, I
don't know if they still wire them that way.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Kx 125 problem |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
I do not have an audio panel.
I didn't say I wasn't verifying the morse code. If switched to NAV mode,
the nav audio can be heard for verification (I think). Also, the SL30
shows the decoded morse signal on it's screen, right? This can be used in
lew of audio verification? Not sure....
.....Don't know. I'm not an expert by any means. I'm probably using 20%
of the radio's capabilities. I just thought I would share what little I
did know to possibly chase down problem....
-
Larry Bowen, Top-poster, RV-8, 53 hours
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
Brian Lloyd said:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
>
>
> On Jan 10, 2005, at 1:54 PM, Larry Bowen wrote:
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen"
>> <Larry@BowenAero.com>
>>
>> Reminds me of an option on my SL30, which may or may not apply to the
>> kx125. Anyway, on the SL30 you can set it up so that the two audios,
>> comm
>> and nav, mix. Once I realized this I set my nav mix setting (probably
>> called something else in the manual) zero, and my noise went away.
>
> Are you using only a single audio output from your SL-30 or do you have
> an audio panel? The mix setting is so that you can hear and ID the nav
> station using only the standard headphone or speaker audio output from
> the comm. If you have an audio panel then you should set this value to
> zero because the audio panel handles the audio for the nav.
>
> BTW, you are supposed to verify the morse ID of the station if you are
> using VOR or LOC. Just because we have GPS doesn't mean you can ignore
> VOR ... yet.
>
> Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
> brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
> +1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
>
> I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
> Antoine de Saint-Exupry
>
>
Message 6
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
On Jan 10, 2005, at 9:50 PM, Paul McAllister wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister"
> <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
>
> I think Narco used to make a splitter the went straight onto the back
> of the
> NAV122 that split both glideslope and MB off the VOR antenna input.
Hmm, I don't remember seeing this one. I have seen one that splits VOR
and GS but not MB also.
If you have a plastic airplane, just a piece of hookup wire connected
to the MB antenna input would probably work just as well.
> I often
> wondered how it worked because the MB frequency isn't a resonant
> multiple of
> the VOR frequencies, but as Brian points out, there is plenty of RF to
> overcome the physics of the situation.
BTW, the magic is for the antenna to be an odd multiple of the
fundamental frequency. An antenna cut for 100MHz will work well at
300MHz but will not work well at all at 200MHz.
Brian Lloyd 6501 Red Hook Plaza
brianl@lloyd.com Suite 201
+1.340.998.9447 St. Thomas, VI 00802
I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .
Antoine de Saint-Exupry
Message 7
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
Thanks for the input.I'll check out the Narco splitter and see how it goes-
Glen Matejcek
aerobubba@earthlink.net
Message 8
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| Subject: | Cookin bosch relays |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>
>So, the issue was I was looking at the receptacle schematic, not the
>relay schemetic. I spent many hours messin with this thing. Cant believe
>how much time can get burned on such a simple matter.
Don't beat yourself up too badly on this. I'm working a generator
trip problem on a Beechjet that has been flogged by others for about
7 weeks. We worked over the holidays on it. Just yesterday we had
a breakthrough on the noise coupling mechanism and as one might
guess . . . the problem is not turning out to be an "electronic"
issue but one of mechanics and the ubiquitous GROUND LOOP. Why
this airplane out of 700 others does it is the BIG question
but after lots of stumbling around over the obvious, new questions
were asked and new lights came on.
This effort has involved dozens of folks not the least of which
have been the service folks out at the airport . . . they've dragged
our raggy asses in and out of the hangar in our 10,000 pound,
$3million$ test fixture about a dozen times in the crummiest
of weather (they won't let me run the engines in the hangar!).
If somebody gave me a bizjet, I'd sell it and use the money
to buy something I can work on. Thank you for sharing your
experiences here on the list. In spite of your embarrassment
you've expanded the horizons of our tribal knowledge. I'm going
to get a really nice paper out of this Beechjet problem too.
Fixing the problem is only 10% of the task . . . letting others
know how it came about is 90% of the effort to help others
fix/deal with it in the future.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Cookin bosch relays |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Mike and all,
VERY happy to hear your problem is solved. It somehows restores hope,
because I'm getting REALLY frustrated for being unable to find the cause of
my LVWM problem.
> Your
> 1. Its not wired like you think
> 2. Look at the schematic again did the trick. The 172 time looking at it
> triggered the though.
>
> Did the trick.
I'm sure the above advice is key in troubleshooting. And as several eyes and
minds can see more clearly than one, I would GREATLY appreciate any advice
or hint.
See some info at :
http://gilles.thesee.free.fr/Elec_architecture.htm
Thanks in advance for any opinion.
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
P.S.
By the way, your website is great ! Lots of info.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Cookin bosch relays |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
Well I blame myself yes, but the very annoying thing is the way they
keyed the pins, it is easy to get a mirror image of the receptacle.
Receptacle here:
www.mstewart.net/super8/panel/index_gif_20.gif
The top view and bottom view can be reversed. That is what hosed me. The
contactor and load can't be, but the coil gnd and + can. ARGH! I did not
even consider the option that the diagram attached to the relay was of
the receptacle.
Now. On to more maddening electronic gremlins.
Yep it was me, but the manufacturer let me do it:)
Mike
Do not archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Cookin bosch relays
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<b.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>
>So, the issue was I was looking at the receptacle schematic, not the
>relay schemetic. I spent many hours messin with this thing. Cant
believe
>how much time can get burned on such a simple matter.
Don't beat yourself up too badly on this. I'm working a generator
trip problem on a Beechjet that has been flogged by others for about
7 weeks. We worked over the holidays on it. Just yesterday we had
a breakthrough on the noise coupling mechanism and as one might
guess . . . the problem is not turning out to be an "electronic"
issue but one of mechanics and the ubiquitous GROUND LOOP. Why
this airplane out of 700 others does it is the BIG question
but after lots of stumbling around over the obvious, new questions
were asked and new lights came on.
This effort has involved dozens of folks not the least of which
have been the service folks out at the airport . . . they've dragged
our raggy asses in and out of the hangar in our 10,000 pound,
$3million$ test fixture about a dozen times in the crummiest
of weather (they won't let me run the engines in the hangar!).
If somebody gave me a bizjet, I'd sell it and use the money
to buy something I can work on. Thank you for sharing your
experiences here on the list. In spite of your embarrassment
you've expanded the horizons of our tribal knowledge. I'm going
to get a really nice paper out of this Beechjet problem too.
Fixing the problem is only 10% of the task . . . letting others
know how it came about is 90% of the effort to help others
fix/deal with it in the future.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Phosphor-Bronze washers? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ronald J. Parigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Phosphor-Bronze washers 1 more time.
When stacking multiple connections, is it recommended to install the PB star washers
between?
Is it ever recommended to put a PB star washer not only under the head of the screw
or nut
or bolt, but between the bottom and the connector, like in a 4 connector stack?
Sorry for beating this, I just don't know.
Sincerely
Ron Parigoris
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Load dump and shutdown procedures |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" <paulm@olypen.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brianl@lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Load dump and shutdown procedures
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
>
> On Jan 8, 2005, at 4:18 PM, Paul Messinger wrote:
SNIP
> > Recently I have seem and observed first hand cases where the ammeter
> > was
> > checked during runup by turning the alternator off.
>
> I don't see how this causes a load dump. If you remove the field
> excitation the output of the alternator ramps to zero as the existing
> B-field in the field collapses. No load dump. Do you get a big
> overshoot when you turn it back on?
Sure for external regulated alternators.
However I have yet to find ANY Jap made alternator with internal regulators
including MI, HI, ND brands that could be turned off once turned on with the
"FIELD" switch.
There is an internal (to the alternator) connection from the "B" lead to the
regulator and the regulator does need external booting on but once on it
stays on. The alternator switch often used with these alternators is a
toggle switch but it could just as well be a momentary push button. The only
way to turn off the alternator once started this way is to stop it from
turning.
This "feature" is often overlooked by builders who install the smaller and
popular Jap alternators. It takes a different approach to design. Far beyond
the "B" lead contactor if you want to control the alternator like turn it
off once started.
Final point is the alternator supplies power to the internal regulator all
the time it is connected to a battery. In once case on one of my autos its
80ma. The dealer says to avoid a dead battery the auto needs to be run at
least once every 7-10 days to recharge the battery. We in Acft, have a
battery contactor so that is not a problem.
In my opinion internally regulated alternators have NO place in aircraft
regardless of availability etc. Bob used to have the same opinion but I
suspect he had to cave in to the widespread use and at least attempt to make
them safe to use.
Paul
Message 13
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| Subject: | Cookin bosch relays |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: william mills <courierboy@earthlink.net>
Bob -
This reminds me of a problem the electricians were chasing on a Navy
Lockheed S-3 Viking. The pilots reported getting moderate,
un-commanded pitch excursions from the auto-pilot system. Turns out
some windshield heat wiring was in close proximity (coupling) to some
auto-pilot wiring and when the heat cycled it caused pitch
excursions. It took those poor buggers a long time to make the
association with the windshield heat and therefore it took about
twenty (yikes!) hops before we could "sell" the plane back to the
squadron.
Sorry I cannot be more specific - I was a mech/work leader and the
electricians and avionics guys handled this problem.
Bill
Naval Air Rework Facility
Alameda, CA
S-3/A-6 flight test line 1980-1995
Do not archive
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
><b.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>
>>
>>
>>So, the issue was I was looking at the receptacle schematic, not the
>>relay schemetic. I spent many hours messin with this thing. Cant believe
>>how much time can get burned on such a simple matter.
>
>
> Don't beat yourself up too badly on this. I'm working a generator
> trip problem on a Beechjet that has been flogged by others for about
> 7 weeks. We worked over the holidays on it. Just yesterday we had
> a breakthrough on the noise coupling mechanism and as one might
> guess . . . the problem is not turning out to be an "electronic"
> issue but one of mechanics and the ubiquitous GROUND LOOP. Why
> this airplane out of 700 others does it is the BIG question
> but after lots of stumbling around over the obvious, new questions
> were asked and new lights came on.
>
> This effort has involved dozens of folks not the least of which
> have been the service folks out at the airport . . . they've dragged
> our raggy asses in and out of the hangar in our 10,000 pound,
> $3million$ test fixture about a dozen times in the crummiest
> of weather (they won't let me run the engines in the hangar!).
>
> If somebody gave me a bizjet, I'd sell it and use the money
> to buy something I can work on. Thank you for sharing your
> experiences here on the list. In spite of your embarrassment
> you've expanded the horizons of our tribal knowledge. I'm going
> to get a really nice paper out of this Beechjet problem too.
> Fixing the problem is only 10% of the task . . . letting others
> know how it came about is 90% of the effort to help others
> fix/deal with it in the future.
>
> Bob . . .
Message 14
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Glen,
I think the NARCO splitter was designed specifically to connect directly to
the three BNC's connectors on the back of the unit. Not to say that it
wouldn't work as a stand alone unit, its just that its physical construction
was aligned around this product.
The NAV122 with an internal MB has been an obsolete product for quite some
time, but it may be available as a spare part.
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: MB splitter
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek"
<aerobubba@earthlink.net>
>
> Thanks for the input.I'll check out the Narco splitter and see how it
goes-
>
> Glen Matejcek
> aerobubba@earthlink.net
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Heated Pitot Tubes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
Good Morning OC,
<<I think it is appropriate that we remember that not all certificated
airplanes that are legal for IFR flight must have a heated pitot
tube....skip...>>
1/11/2005
Hello Old Bob, You are absolutely right. In fact I would say that the
majority of general aviation aircraft in the US, including those still
being manufactured today, were built to a certification standard that
existed before FAR Part 23 became effective.
Those aircraft only have to meet their original type certification, as
modified, and it is astounding the extent to which the manufacturers have
been able to take the original certification and grandfather it into "new"
airplanes. Look at the Piper PA-28 line for example.
The reason behind this situation is that it takes a huge dollar investment
to obtain FAA certification of a truly new aircraft.
OC
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Phosphor-Bronze washers? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 02:18 PM 1/11/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ronald J. Parigoris"
><rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
>Phosphor-Bronze washers 1 more time.
>
>When stacking multiple connections, is it recommended to install the PB
>star washers
>between?
no
>Is it ever recommended to put a PB star washer not only under the head of
>the screw or nut
>or bolt, but between the bottom and the connector, like in a 4 connector
>stack?
Only under the fastener you tighten to close the joint . . . usually
a nut that rests against the terminal tab . . .
Bob . . .
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Load dump and shutdown procedures |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski <krasinski@provalue.net>
Paul Messinger wrote:
>
>Sure for external regulated alternators.
>
>However I have yet to find ANY Jap made alternator with internal regulators
>including MI, HI, ND brands that could be turned off once turned on with the
>"FIELD" switch.
>
>There is an internal (to the alternator) connection from the "B" lead to the
>regulator and the regulator does need external booting on but once on it
>stays on. The alternator switch often used with these alternators is a
>toggle switch but it could just as well be a momentary push button. The only
>way to turn off the alternator once started this way is to stop it from
>turning.
>
>This "feature" is often overlooked by builders who install the smaller and
>popular Jap alternators. It takes a different approach to design. Far beyond
>the "B" lead contactor if you want to control the alternator like turn it
>off once started................
>
>In my opinion internally regulated alternators have NO place in aircraft
>regardless of availability etc. Bob used to have the same opinion but I
>suspect he had to cave in to the widespread use and at least attempt to make
>them safe to use.
>
>Paul
>
>
>
Contact magazine a few years ago described a very simple modification
for Mitsubishi and some other Japanese alternator - one wire bridge
inside the alternator must be cut, and one wire connected. This allows
to feed the controller of the field coils from outside. I have done
that modification to a Mitsubishi alternator and it seems to work
perfect. I can switch it on, or off, on demand.
Jerzy
Message 18
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| Subject: | Certification List |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Mickey Coggins
<mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
<< ....skip.....Perhaps this is a dumb question, but is there a list
of things like this? Things that have to be "certified"
in some way?....skip....>> Mickey Coggins
1/11/2005
Hello Mickey, Why not make up your own list? Like someone who puts together
their own electrical system you will have a much greater understanding of
what is involved.
Things on a list for an amateur built experimental aircraft should fall into
one of three categories:
1) Things you are required to have, but don't require any FAA approval. See
FAR Sec. 91.205 (b) (1) through (10) for a start.
2) Things that you are required to have, but must have some sort of FAA
approval. See FAR Sec. 91.205 (b) (11), (13), (14), (c), (2), (3) as
examples.
3) Things that you are required to have that must have some sort of FAA
approval and it is pretty damn certain that the best way to get a
satisfactory item is to procure one that has been through a formal FAA
certification process such as a TSO. See FAR Sec. 91.207 (a) (1) and FAR
Sec. 91.215 (a) as examples.
I deliberately did not attempt to make a complete list in these paragraphs.
That is for you to do. Look for the word "approved". We have already
discussed the fact that there are no certification standards for items
installed on an amateur built experimental aircraft and that the FAA
approval source and process for these items can fall into a gray area.
If everyone is scratching around in their copy of the FAR's to look at these
Sections, and maybe some other Sections as well to make up a list for
themselves, I say hooray.
OC
Message 19
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| Subject: | Load dump and shutdown procedures |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Finley" <jon@finleyweb.net>
Uhmmm, Paul wrote that series of articles Jerzy... :-)
Jon Finley
N90MG Q2 - Subaru EJ-22 DD - 467 Hrs. TT
Apple Valley, Minnesota
http://www.FinleyWeb.net/Q2Subaru
DO NOT ARCHIVE
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerzy Krasinski
> --> <krasinski@provalue.net>
>
> Paul Messinger wrote:
>
> >
> >Sure for external regulated alternators.
> > SNIP
> >Paul
> >
> >
> >
> Contact magazine a few years ago described a very simple
> modification
> for Mitsubishi and some other Japanese alternator - one wire bridge
> inside the alternator must be cut, and one wire connected.
> This allows
> to feed the controller of the field coils from outside. I have done
> that modification to a Mitsubishi alternator and it seems to work
> perfect. I can switch it on, or off, on demand.
>
> Jerzy
Message 20
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| Subject: | Seatbelts In Amateur Built Experimental Aircraft |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
Previously From: "Joe Norris" <jnorris@eaa.org>
<<....skip......In fact, there's no specific regulatory
requirement for seat belts of any kind!!....skip.....>>
1/11/2005
Hello Joe, I and FAR Sec. 91.205 (13) and (14) disagree with what you have
written above.
What is your basis for such a statement?
OC
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Cookin bosch relays |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dww0708@aol.com
We had to disable the ground fault circuit to make our relays stay put.Buss
shedding spuriously. Sensitive stuff. kind of miss it
Message 22
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| Subject: | Cookin bosch relays |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 01:56 PM 1/11/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: william mills
><courierboy@earthlink.net>
>
>Bob -
>
>This reminds me of a problem the electricians were chasing on a Navy
>Lockheed S-3 Viking. The pilots reported getting moderate,
>un-commanded pitch excursions from the auto-pilot system. Turns out
>some windshield heat wiring was in close proximity (coupling) to some
>auto-pilot wiring and when the heat cycled it caused pitch
>excursions. It took those poor buggers a long time to make the
>association with the windshield heat and therefore it took about
>twenty (yikes!) hops before we could "sell" the plane back to the
>squadron.
>
>Sorry I cannot be more specific - I was a mech/work leader and the
>electricians and avionics guys handled this problem.
Yup . . . cyclic high current excursions are common antagonists.
They can couple magnetically between bundles, or generate voltage
transients on a bus and cause other systems to operated in unanticipated
ways.
The original squawk I'm working was that turning on either the air
conditioner motor or testing electric tail de-ice would trip the generator.
Everyone jumped on the spike band-wagon and spent several weeks
looking for them and swapping out components in the usual troubleshoot-
by-substitution techniques.
Turns out that the high inrush currents (normal for these systems) was
causing the generator to switch momentarily from a duty-cycle switch
mode (bus voltage under control) to a 100% mode (bus voltage low) and
then back to a duty-cycle switch mode as the system voltage recovers.
As the system begins to switch, the magnetic field in the generator
is as high as it ever will be (nearly 100% duty cycle but still
modulated on/off). In the brief instance after regulation begins,
a 2 millisecond pulse is generated in the ground fault detection
system fooling the controller into believing there's a problem.
Turns out that duty-cycle switched field current in the field ring of
the generator produces low value AC voltage across the length of the
generator's field ring. There are heavy bonding jumpers (for lightning)
at BOTH ends of generator to components of engine. While the voltages
are low (tens of millivolts) so are the bonding impedances which makes
the circulating currents high. A ground fault detector transformer
is mounted to the engine and is picking up the field system noise in
spite of the fact that the transformer is several inches away from
the generator itself and has operated in that position on about
1500 installations over a period of 14 or so years.
It has taken awhile to track down links in the cause/effect
chain. Turns out there is nothing wrong with the electrical system
or any of its components and the problem is caused by some shift
in conductive characteristics of the ENGINE through pathways
never intended to carry current. Just dismounting the ground fault
transformer from it's normal position "cures" the problem.
I've set up some new experiments to conduct tomorrow to see
if we can see where the new sneak path for this noise came from
that couples to the ground fault transformer.
This is going to make a good story that will cost several
tens of thousands of dollars for the research. Like all
problems, the cause will be a stone simple reason that
cropped up after one systems designer (lightning protection)
had no awareness of the effects of his work on that of
another systems designer (power generation and distribution).
Bob . . .
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Load dump and shutdown procedures |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>In my opinion internally regulated alternators have NO place in aircraft
>regardless of availability etc. Bob used to have the same opinion but I
>suspect he had to cave in to the widespread use and at least attempt to make
>them safe to use.
Exactly. B&C's alternators start out as brand new ND alternators
and get modified to remove their regulators and make them more
aircraft-friendly. Figure Z-24 was crafted to accommodate our
friends who insisted on following the lead of Van's and numerous
others who opined, "automotive alternators are okay as-is."
The load-dump phenomenon of recent discussion is operator-induced
based on substitution of an automotive alternator that has never
been recommended in the 'Connection. Again, it's a cause/effect
chain that doesn't need to be completely forged.
If you turn battery and alternator ON before starting and
leave them ON until engine is shut down, risk from load-dump
is extremely low and predicated on failure of some part of the
system's wiring or one of its components.
This is why I was reluctant to rush to a 'solution' for
mitigating the load dump phenomenon. It's never bubbled to
the surface of problems in the field for either certified
ships or airplanes flying B&C's modified alternators. This
whole tempest in a teapot grew out of an accommodation of
of what I considered to be poor practice from the outset.
Adding Band-Aids to a marginal system to accommodate poor
operating practice runs against the grain of my personal
design philosophy.
Never-the-less . . . the internally regulated alternators
are here to stay. They are amazing values in terms
of capability and performance for their cost. I cannot
in good faith say "don't use them" but I will encourage
folks to understand the nature of this little beast. It's
sort of like the mostly friendly pit bull that you KNOW
can and will rip your arm off under the right conditions.
Not every part offered is a plug-n-play substitute for
similar components. Satisfactory operation depends on
one's UNDERSTANDING and accommodation of the DIFFERENCES.
Keep that pit bull smiling!
Bob . . .
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Zeftronics Regulators? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:57 AM 1/10/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dr. Andrew Elliott"
><a.s.elliott@cox.net>
>
>I've been lurking here for some time and am surprised to see no mention
>of the Zeftronics regulators (alternator controllers). They seem to
>offer pretty good features at an attractive price, about 1/2 of the B&C
>versions. Perhaps their technology is not up to speed? For example,
>the R15V00 Rev A offers low voltage warning, field-ground fault
>protection and over-voltage protection, along with a neat visible
>trouble-shooting light. I had one on my last airplane for many years
>with no problems. Comments?
Zeftronics has been around for lots of years and has a generally
good track record. No reason why one should not consider these
products in their OBAM aircaraft.
Bob . . .
Message 25
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| Subject: | Cookin bosch relays |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
Hey Mike,
Doesn't it feel good to stop banging your head on something
like this?? :)
do not archive
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS
> Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
>
> www.mstewart.net/super8/panel/index_gif_20.gif
>
snip
> now works great. I was very frustrated that a simple thing like a relay
> was giving me such a headache.
>
> So, the issue was I was looking at the receptacle schematic, not the
> relay schemetic. I spent many hours messin with this thing. Cant believe
> how much time can get burned on such a simple matter.
>
> Thanks team for the help.
> I threw 3 relays away. Then after finding out what was happening, I dug
> em out of the garbage.
> Your
> 1. Its not wired like you think
> 2. Look at the schematic again did the trick. The 172 time looking at it
> triggered the though.
>
> Did the trick.
> Many thanks.
> Mike
>
>
Regards,
Matt-
Message 26
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| Subject: | Load dump and shutdown procedures |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" <gwbraly@gami.com>
>>In my opinion internally regulated alternators have NO place in aircraft regardless
of availability etc. Bob used to have the same opinion but I suspect he
had to cave in to the widespread use and at least attempt to make them safe to
use.<<
Your comments are well placed. But the problem is not "internally regulated" per
se . . . just internally regulated by a device that was designed for a vehicle
that could be pulled over and parked on the side of the road.
We have developed an internal regulator that has none of the problems you describe
and is designed to avoid the single point failure modes, etc, that are inherent
in the automotive incarnation of the integrated alternator/regulator.
Regards, George
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Messinger
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Load dump and shutdown procedures
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" <paulm@olypen.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lloyd" <brianl@lloyd.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Load dump and shutdown procedures
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Brian Lloyd <brianl@lloyd.com>
>
> On Jan 8, 2005, at 4:18 PM, Paul Messinger wrote:
SNIP
> > Recently I have seem and observed first hand cases where the ammeter
> > was
> > checked during runup by turning the alternator off.
>
> I don't see how this causes a load dump. If you remove the field
> excitation the output of the alternator ramps to zero as the existing
> B-field in the field collapses. No load dump. Do you get a big
> overshoot when you turn it back on?
Sure for external regulated alternators.
However I have yet to find ANY Jap made alternator with internal regulators
including MI, HI, ND brands that could be turned off once turned on with the
"FIELD" switch.
There is an internal (to the alternator) connection from the "B" lead to the
regulator and the regulator does need external booting on but once on it
stays on. The alternator switch often used with these alternators is a
toggle switch but it could just as well be a momentary push button. The only
way to turn off the alternator once started this way is to stop it from
turning.
This "feature" is often overlooked by builders who install the smaller and
popular Jap alternators. It takes a different approach to design. Far beyond
the "B" lead contactor if you want to control the alternator like turn it
off once started.
Final point is the alternator supplies power to the internal regulator all
the time it is connected to a battery. In once case on one of my autos its
80ma. The dealer says to avoid a dead battery the auto needs to be run at
least once every 7-10 days to recharge the battery. We in Acft, have a
battery contactor so that is not a problem.
In my opinion internally regulated alternators have NO place in aircraft
regardless of availability etc. Bob used to have the same opinion but I
suspect he had to cave in to the widespread use and at least attempt to make
them safe to use.
Paul
---
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