---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/13/05: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:21 AM - ultraviolet light dimmers (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)) 2. 04:23 AM - Re: Modified Z-12 comments (LarryRobertHelming) 3. 04:40 AM - RF Bypass (richard dudley) 4. 05:45 AM - Re: TIS vs ADS-B (John Schroeder) 5. 05:48 AM - Re: Re: Load Dump (Mark R Steitle) 6. 06:16 AM - Re: ultraviolet light dimmers (Kenneth Melvin) 7. 06:38 AM - Load Dump (Glen Matejcek) 8. 07:01 AM - Re: Load Dump (Ron Raby) 9. 07:24 AM - Re: Load dump and shutdown procedures (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 07:30 AM - Re: Modified Z-12 comments (James Redmon) 11. 09:58 AM - Re: Instrument panels (Leo J. Corbalis) 12. 09:58 AM - Dynon Efis (Mike Gamble) 13. 10:23 AM - Aircraft Development Expense () 14. 11:07 AM - Re: Aircraft Development Expense (Scott Jackson) 15. 11:08 AM - Re: Dynon Efis (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 16. 05:41 PM - Re: TIS vs ADS-B (Tom Brusehaver) 17. 06:34 PM - Re: Load Dump - Preflight (John Tierney) 18. 07:17 PM - Z13a Pre-flight alt test procedure? (Bill Schlatterer) 19. 07:36 PM - Re: Dynon Efis (Wayne Sweet) 20. 07:44 PM - Re: TIS vs ADS-B (Dj Merrill) 21. 07:50 PM - Installing a DAVTRON Outside Air Temp instrument. (Ernest Kells) 22. 09:46 PM - Re: Load Dump - Preflight (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 10:04 PM - Re: Load Dump - Preflight (Matt Prather) 24. 10:11 PM - Re: Dynon Efis (Richard Talbot) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:21:21 AM PST US From: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) Subject: AeroElectric-List: ultraviolet light dimmers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) Speaking of Ultraviolet lights. Question for you all. In my WWII era and post WWII era Dad's aircraft maintenance stuff there are a few small boxes with rotary knobs on them that look like some kind of ultraviolet light dimmers based upon the labelling. Was that that type of light common in military transports and such back then? Probably even into the 60s and early 70s? If so, why? thanks, lucky do not archive -------------- Original message -------------- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" > > I think "old Bob" will agree to this: > When we were flying the Adcock range [listening to a series of > buried tones] in DC3s at night an article was presented by an expert in > Mesmerisation [hypnosis] which mentioned the five conditions especially > required for success: > (a) a small enclosed room insulated against outside activity; > (b) a tone of high frequency, with > (c) a low frequency tone; > (d) darkness with bright points of light; and > (e) a condition of concentration of the mind. > What better site for all five than a cockpit (a), the Adcock range > tones (b), the growl of the radials (c), the lighted instruments of > ultraviolet excitement in a darkened panel (d) and trying to stay on course > on the right side of the aural beam (e). > So what did six months of lobbying with givvermint and company > produce? > Extra small panel floodlights and an uplifting tract imploring us to watch > each other carefully. > Ferg > Europa A064 > > > > > > Speaking of Ultraviolet lights. Question for you all. In my WWII era and post WWII era Dad's aircraft maintenance stuff there are a few small boxes with rotary knobs on them that look like some kind of ultraviolet light dimmers based upon the labelling. Was that that type of lightcommon in military transports and such back then? Probably even into the 60s and early 70s? If so, why? thanks, lucky do not archive -------------- Original message -------------- -- AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" I think "old Bob" will agree to this: When we were flying the Adcock range [listening to a series of buried tones] in DC3s at night an article was presented by an expert in Mesmerisation [hypnosis] which mentioned the five conditions especially required for success: (a) a small enclosed room insulated against outside activity; (b) a tone of high frequency, with (c) a low frequency tone; (d) darkness with bright points of light; and (e) a condition of concentration of the mind. What better site for all five than a cockpit (a), the Adcock range tones (b), the growl of the radials (c), the lighted instruments of ultraviolet excitement in a darkened panel (d) and trying to stay on course on the right side of the aural beam (e). So what did six months of lobbying with givvermint and company produce? Extra small panel floodlights and an uplifting tract imploring us to watch each other carefully. Ferg Europa A064 FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:21 AM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Modified Z-12 comments --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" > >> > >> > >>Is no one going to take a stab at this? If you have a wiring diagram showing your changed system, how about publishing it so we can more easily evaluate it rather than having to superimpose your changes onto one of Bob's designs? I think that would more easily get you responses from the many minds on this list. If you haven't got one, how about making one? Indiana Larry ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:40:13 AM PST US From: richard dudley Subject: AeroElectric-List: RF Bypass --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: richard dudley Bob, I am using Van's + 0 - ammeter. I believe that Van's meters use an op amp circuit. When I key my Comm2 transmitter, the meter pegs. This does not happen with Comm1. I am suspecting that RF is the cause. I would like to try a capacitor bypass from ammeter termnals to ground. What capacitance would you suggest? Thanks in advance. Richard Dudley ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:52 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TIS vs ADS-B From: "John Schroeder" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" Tom - What charts are these? Thanks, John Schroeder > > Charts are available really cheap on DVD (check e-bay, > sometimes about $10). > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:28 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Load Dump From: "Mark R Steitle" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" Dennis, The AeroElectric archives should have a posting of mine from about a year ago on converting the 55A Geo alternator to external regulation. If you can't find it, email me and I will send it to you directly. I believe you can find Paul's article in Contact Magazine. Back issues are available at www.contactmagazine.com. Mark S. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of glaesers Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Load Dump --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "glaesers" Where might one find these articles - particularly the one on making the Field connection a true on/off item? Dennis Glaeser > AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" >I wrote that article. I also covered how to convert the ND alternator. >Paul ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:53 AM PST US From: Kenneth Melvin Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: ultraviolet light dimmers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kenneth Melvin Most WW2-era aircraft were equipped with instruments with radium dials, activated by ultraviolet cockpit lamps. Very pretty at night, but deadly for those employed to paint the radium instrument faces. These individuals suffered a high incidence of mouth/throat cancers, as a result of using their lips to enhance the point of the brush. The cockpits of an AT6 and P51 really glowed most attractively at night with the UV cockpit lights on. Kenneth Melvin, N51KX. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of lucky Subject: AeroElectric-List: ultraviolet light dimmers --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) Speaking of Ultraviolet lights. Question for you all. In my WWII era and post WWII era Dad's aircraft maintenance stuff there are a few small boxes with rotary knobs on them that look like some kind of ultraviolet light dimmers based upon the labelling. Was that that type of light common in military transports and such back then? Probably even into the 60s and early 70s? If so, why? thanks, lucky do not archive -------------- Original message -------------- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" > > I think "old Bob" will agree to this: > When we were flying the Adcock range [listening to a series of buried > tones] in DC3s at night an article was presented by an expert in > Mesmerisation [hypnosis] which mentioned the five conditions > especially required for success: > (a) a small enclosed room insulated against outside activity; > (b) a tone of high frequency, with > (c) a low frequency tone; > (d) darkness with bright points of light; and > (e) a condition of concentration of the mind. > What better site for all five than a cockpit (a), the Adcock range > tones (b), the growl of the radials (c), the lighted instruments of > ultraviolet excitement in a darkened panel (d) and trying to stay on > course on the right side of the aural beam (e). > So what did six months of lobbying with givvermint and company > produce? > Extra small panel floodlights and an uplifting tract imploring us to > watch each other carefully. > Ferg > Europa A064 > > > > > > Speaking of Ultraviolet lights. Question for you all. In my WWII era and post WWII era Dad's aircraft maintenance stuff there are a few small boxes with rotary knobs on them that look like some kind of ultraviolet light dimmers based upon the labelling. Was that that type of lightcommon in military transports and such back then? Probably even into the 60s and early 70s? If so, why? thanks, lucky do not archive -------------- Original message -------------- -- AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" I think "old Bob" will agree to this: When we were flying the Adcock range [listening to a series of buried tones] in DC3s at night an article was presented by an expert in Mesmerisation [hypnosis] which mentioned the five conditions especially required for success: (a) a small enclosed room insulated against outside activity; (b) a tone of high frequency, with (c) a low frequency tone; (d) darkness with bright points of light; and (e) a condition of concentration of the mind. What better site for all five than a cockpit (a), the Adcock range tones (b), the growl of the radials (c), the lighted instruments of ultraviolet excitement in a darkened panel (d) and trying to stay on course on the right side of the aural beam (e). So what did six months of lobbying with givvermint and company produce? Extra small panel floodlights and an uplifting tract imploring us to watch each other carefully. Ferg Europa A064 FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:38:45 AM PST US From: "Glen Matejcek" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Load Dump --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" Hi All- A couple of folks have asked why one would even want to be able to turn an alternator off while the battery remains on. In my case, I have a main alt and an SD-8 backup. The SD-8 will be regulated to a somewhat lower voltage than the main alt, so that it idles until the main alt goes off line for some reason. If you grid out the various combinations of possible operating conditions for this system, you find that seven of the nine possible scenarios yield unique telltales that will indicate the status of the system. Two conditions, normal ops and main alt good / stby alt failed, yield the same indications. So, how do you tell if the stby alt is good to go? I plan on starting the engine with only the batteries on. Once the engine is up and running, I will turn on the stby system. If the bus voltage rises, the stby sys is good. Then I will turn on the main system, and the bus voltage should rise further. Now I know both systems are functioning properly, and both switches will stay on until after shutdown. As to the question of split masters vs. progressive switches, I can envision a case where the split master alt switch contacts could conceivably open a smidge before the bat switch contacts, triggering a load dump scenario. (again, not that I have any intention of turning an alt switch off while the engine is running...) But the real bottom line on switch choice came from Bob and his great talent for simplification. To paraphrase, a split master requires the cutting and filing of a rectangular hole, whereas the toggle just needs a drilled hole. Besides, then the master matches all the other toggles in the panel.... Glen Matejcek aerobubba@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:50 AM PST US From: "Ron Raby" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Load Dump --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Raby" Bob I have some procedure questions. I have my plane wired per Z14. In the event of a low volt warning. Do I just turn on the crossfeed contactor? or do I pull the circuit breaker going to the B&C regulator and then turn on the crossfeed contactor. Is there any problem if the crossfeed contactor is accidentally turned on with both system working properly? Thanks Ron Raby Lancair ES ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:11 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Load dump and shutdown procedures --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:46 AM 1/13/2005 +1000, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" > > >Dear Bob N > >You said: >"If you turn battery and alternator ON before starting and >leave them ON until engine is shut down, risk from load-dump >is extremely low and predicated on failure of some part of the >system's wiring or one of its components." > >Given that we have used your alternate buss feed architecture, if the >battery and alternator should BOTH be turned ON before starting and BOTH >be turned OFF after shutdown, logic would indicate to me that they both >should be controlled by one double pole switch instead of the >progressive type switch unless there are scenarios where it would be >necessary to switch off the 'alternator only' in flight. Very perceptive. In the EARLY days of the Z-figures and before I had located inexpensive toggle switch equivalents of the classic split-rocker switch (B&C's S700-2-10) the DC PWR MASTER switch was indeed an S700-2-3 . . . double pole, double throw wired to bring battery and alternator ON and OFF together. Just minutes ago, I revised the Z-13 drawing someone requested a few weeks ago to replace the 2-10 with a 2-3. >SO, my question is, under what conditions would it be necessary to >switch off the alternator only during flight? I'm sorry, but my simple >enquiring mind does not have the ability to work this out with any >degree of certainty. It is almost never necessary . . . The most common (and in fact the only ones I've seen happen) reasons are (1) regulation has become unstable and the pilot elects to shut down the alternator and continue battery-only -OR- (2) an OV condition forces shutdown via the protection system. 99.99% of flights are conducted with no reason for taking an alternator off line except to shut the system down for parking the aircraft. NOW, keep in mind that there are occasions when one wishes to do some ground maintenance using battery-only power. It's useful to turn the battery master on and disable the alternator which can be done even in fuse-block aircraft by pulling the breaker that is part of the crowbar OV protection system. This same breaker can be used to shut down the alternator in flight should one encounter condition (1) above. In many cases, it may not be necessary to shut the alternator down to prevent added battery drain during ground maintenance. Some modern regulator chips have a AC voltage sense lead from the alternator's stator winding that lets the chip determine if the alternator is rotating or not . . . this MIGHT also prevent field current from flowing when the alternator stops turning . . . The problem is that once the regulator goes inside the alternator the system designer's task for deducing all operational characteristics of the system is difficult. Further, when alternators are selected literally at random from the field of automotive takeoffs you have to consider an additional mix of after-market regulators that my find their way into the alternator. At the moment I'm considering a renumbering of the DRAFT Z-13 as a new figure with supporting notes that explain the special circumstances under which an internally regulated alternator can be comfortably integrated on an OBAM aircraft along with my BEST recommendation that B&C alternators with either B&C's regulators (or an equivalent) is still the ideal way to go about it. Yes, the alternators are relatively expensive compared to a junk-yard takeoff. However, it's likely that it will be the first and last alternator you need to put on your airplane . . . B&C's return rate for wear-out or defect has been under 1% . . . not PER YEAR but for the ENTIRE FLEET of installations that extends back over 10 years and thousands of installations. One can save a buck or two with this mix-n-match activity that the OBAM community is so free to exercise. However, this is the exercise that has prompted many thousands of words, hours of worries, and even enticed me to compromise on my best recommendations by publishing figure Z-24. There's an old adage about compromise: "When one seeks middle ground between the best and the worst, only the worst wins". This is exactly what we're experiencing now. By departing from the best we know how to do, a whole host of new variables need sifting for all the unforeseen risks to the system. Bob . . . >Thanks as always > >Kingsley Hurst >Europa Mono Classic in Oz. > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 1/10/2005 > > >-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265 - Release Date: 1/10/2005 Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------------- < Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition > < of man. Advances which permit this norm to be > < exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the > < work of an extremely small minority, frequently > < despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed > < by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny > < minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes > < happens) is driven out of a society, the people > < then slip back into abject poverty. > < > < This is known as "bad luck". > < -Lazarus Long- > <------------------------------------------------------> http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:24 AM PST US From: "James Redmon" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Modified Z-12 comments --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" I understand, but as I mentioned - it's not "my" system. I don't have any diagrams to publish or any good way to make them either. Sorry, but you are right, a picture is worth...well, you know the rest. It's not so much the wiring that is in question, but the philosophy of combining bat/alt switch controls and using pull-breakers for alt feed protection and a way of isolating. Thanks for the comments. James Redmon Berkut #013 N97TX http://www.berkut13.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Modified Z-12 comments > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" > > >> >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" >> >> >> >> >> >>Is no one going to take a stab at this? > > If you have a wiring diagram showing your changed system, how about > publishing it so we can more easily evaluate it rather than having to > superimpose your changes onto one of Bob's designs? I think that would > more > easily get you responses from the many minds on this list. If you > haven't > got one, how about making one? > > Indiana Larry > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:10 AM PST US From: "Leo J. Corbalis" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Instrument panels --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis" What are you young whippersnappers griping about ? I had to break minimums on a loop range with bent legs at my home base. Lots of local thunderstorms made listening great fun. Leo Corbalis PLEASE do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Instrument panels > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" > > I think "old Bob" will agree to this: > When we were flying the Adcock range [listening to a series of > buried tones] in DC3s at night an article was presented by an expert in > Mesmerisation [hypnosis] which mentioned the five conditions especially > required for success: > (a) a small enclosed room insulated against outside activity; > (b) a tone of high frequency, with > (c) a low frequency tone; > (d) darkness with bright points of light; and > (e) a condition of concentration of the mind. > What better site for all five than a cockpit (a), the Adcock range > tones (b), the growl of the radials (c), the lighted instruments of > ultraviolet excitement in a darkened panel (d) and trying to stay on course > on the right side of the aural beam (e). > So what did six months of lobbying with givvermint and company > produce? > Extra small panel floodlights and an uplifting tract imploring us to watch > each other carefully. > Ferg > Europa A064 > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:45 AM PST US From: "Mike Gamble" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dynon Efis --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Gamble" Any reports (good and bad) on the Dynon 10A EFIS ? Thanks Mike Gamble Building Europa Mono in UK ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:32 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Development Expense --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > When I started designing products for the medical market as a young > engineer, I got a taste of poor management and bureaucratic inertia and > all > the other Dilbert dramas of corporate life. I wanted to immediately start > on > incremental improvements so the product would not become obsolete in a few > years. This would ensure that the product development cycle would be as > smooth and orderly as possible, and we would continuously have the best > products on the market. > > The management wanted none of it. They insisted on policies that > guaranteed > that the old product would become shabbily obsolete and ultimately crash > in > a panic-project-cycle that made no sense and continued for years. Who do > you > think got the big bonuses? > > When I hear that designs are fixed due to the HUGE cost of FAA > certification, I don't believe it. The FAA is a bureaucracy but they > respond > to standard engineering documents. Many kitplane companies certify their > aircraft...and the reason Cessna et al didn't introduce truly up-to-date > designs is just their Dilbert management. No forward vision there bubela. > Reminds me of Detroit in 1974. Regards, Eric M. Jones 1/13/2005 Hello Eric, I encountered a similar mindset when I worked as an intern for a major aerospace company during the summer of 1968 when I was working on an MS in Aero Engineering. The design project was a "life boat for space" -- an escape-from-mother-ship-and-return-to-earth life raft for astronauts. The success of a future government contract to build such a vehicle was apparently heavily dependent, at least in the minds of the design engineers, upon the percentage of "space qualified hardware" that could be incorporated. So a majority of the effort was expended, not on orginal thinking and problem solving, but upon how much of what hardware that had previously been to space in some form and was therefore space qualified, could be crammed into the design of the vehicle. OC ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:23 AM PST US From: "Scott Jackson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Development Expense --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott Jackson" >> When I hear that designs are fixed due to the HUGE cost of FAA >> certification, I don't believe it. The FAA is a bureaucracy but they >> respond >> to standard engineering documents. I disagree: check out this month's Aviation Consumer on page 20 to see just how this mindset is holding us back.. SCott in VAncover> > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:42 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Dynon Efis From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Lots. Search the RV-lists. There have been many many many discussions there. Mike Do not archive. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Gamble Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dynon Efis --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Gamble" Any reports (good and bad) on the Dynon 10A EFIS ? Thanks Mike Gamble Building Europa Mono in UK ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TIS vs ADS-B From: "Tom Brusehaver" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom Brusehaver" > > Hi Tom, > Thanks for the excellent explanation! > Is ADS-B a "superset" of TIS? In other words, does > it display all of the TIS data, plus send your > aircraft position, or does it see only other ADS-B > traffic, and not include the radar info? > Which one is better overall for seeing more traffic? TIS-B is a superset of ADS-B. I know I have seen the specs but right off I can't put my finger on 'em. (It is probably a RCTA $pec) Here is a pretty good description of the differences and similarities: http://www.ep.liu.se/exjobb/itn/2004/kts/013/exjobb.pdf > > What type of charts are you referring to in your last > paragraph? > Regular aeronautical charts, like what you would buy. Here is the FAA page: http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/catalog/charts/digital/Raster_Sectional_Sample/Raster Here is the $10 one I was talking about: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4519207782&category=26440 > Thanks, > > -Dj > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:34:35 PM PST US From: "John Tierney" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Load Dump - Preflight --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Tierney" I was taught by several instructors to turn off the alternator during the preflight check to verify that things work on the battery, that the ammeter shows a draw on the battery and the low voltage light works. I've been doing this by rote for years. But upon further review, the Cessna operating manual, normal procedures section says: "Prior to flight where verification of proper alternator and alternator control unit operation is essential (such as night or instrument flight) a positive verification can be made by loading the electrical system momentarily (3 to 5 seconds) with the landing light or by operating the wing flaps during engine runup...." From now on, no more turning off the alternator. Thanks folks, John Tierney Salem, WI RV-7 (under const.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Carter Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Load Dump --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" I've been scanning these "load dump" things and have recently seen some folks postulate some scenarios and also discuss internally regulated auto alternators and auto wiring/electrical system architecture as they might relate (or not) to aircraft ops. Someone mentioned that some folks have wanted to assure their alternators are functioning properly before taking off and want something other than absence of a "low voltage" light - so they turn off the alternator and check the voltmeter? Actually, if they had a voltmeter, then they should only need to see "13.4" or more and say "Alternator - OK". If it went over-voltage, the OVM would kill the B-lead and he'd get a "low voltage light". If it was putting out 13.0 v, that wouldn't charge a depleted battery - the "low voltage light" should be on. Since some folks prefer not to have a voltmeter and use a loadmeter, I guess you'd have to rely on the OVM and Low Voltage annuciator to tell you the alternator voltage was fine., like above. The only reason I can think of to turn off the alternator would be in conjunction with turning off the battery (contactor) prior to an emergency landing off field where sparks might be undesirable if parts of the engine compartment, fuel tanks, etc were damaged/leaked and/or mashed together/shorted. Is there a non-emergency scenario I've missed that would justify turning off the alternator with the engine running with normal electrical loads "on"? If not, then wouldn't a "switch guard" be cheaper and lower parts count than adding transorbs and other gizmos to take care of accidental or "mind fart" events? (Those events do occur - I was in the back seat of an F-100F as IP with a senior leader in front - we touched down at the end of a mission and instead of "flaps up" the "gear handle" came up!! Fortunately, the complete landing gear system was fully functional and a safety switch kept the gear from retracting.) I think 'Lectric Bob's response at the bottom of this thread says it all. Turn it on, leave it on until normal shutdown. Again, is there a scenario someone is really fond of that this won't work for? David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maureen & Bob Christensen" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Load Dump > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Maureen & Bob Christensen" > > I've read more on this subject than I wanted to know! > > I have an internally regulated 55A alternator . . . I plan to turn the > master switch on and leave it on! What additional "protection" do I need to > operate safely? . . . I am considering the addition of a second small > battery or a B&C 8A Dynamo for back-up. > > Thanks, > Bob > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > To: > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Load Dump > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > > > At 07:44 AM 1/12/2005 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > > > > > > > > >AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > > > > > > ><<....skip.....If you turn battery and alternator ON before starting and > > >leave them ON until engine is shut down, risk from load-dump > > >is extremely low and predicated on failure of some part of the > > >system's wiring or one of its components.....skip..... Bob>> > > > > > >1/12/2005 > > > > > >Hello Bob Nuckolls, I don't understand the necessity or desirability to > have > > >the alternator ON before starting the engine. What problem does it create > to > > >turn the alternator ON after the engine is running? > > > > > >System involved is externally regulated (LR3B-14) single gear driven > > >alternator, separate alternator field and battery switch, single battery > > >feeding a buss through a commonly available continuous duty contactor. > > > > > >Battery and alternator field switch are left ON at end of flight until > after > > >engine shut down. > > > > Define "problem" . . . in the spare intervals between battles > > with my Beechjet dragon, I've been noticing lots of worries about > > the effects of the "old crowbar ov system" etc (see chapter 6 > > of the 'Connection . . . crowbar ov systems have a rather young > > evolutionary history in aircraft and there are rational > > reasons for its adoption). Just the fact that ordinary and > > expected transients occur in the operation of various system > > accessories becomes a new problem or worry for some folks. > > > > My recommendations for architecture using internally regulated > > alternators ASSUMED that folks would pretty much operate their > > alternators like I do in the spam cans I fly . . . there's no > > reason to be flipping switches with the alternator loaded and > > the engine spooled up except to watch the ammeters and voltmeters > > work. None the less, folks have done this and it uncovered (or > > created) a new "problem" that has simmered for some time on > > the various discussion groups. > > > > We can discuss the causes and effects of the various transients > > that occur during alternator switching and possibly come to some > > consensus that this particular manipulation of switches is "okay" > > while we worry about others. The 100% "solution" to all the > > "problems" of any magnitude is to simply turn everything on > > before starting and leave it on until the engine stops at > > shutdown. The one modus operandi is "safe" irrespective of > > your regulator/alternator combination. > > > > >Many thanks for your continuing help to all of us. > > > > You're most welcome sir. > > > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:39 PM PST US From: "Bill Schlatterer" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z13a Pre-flight alt test procedure? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" Bob, using Z13A, what would the approved pre-flight check for the Primary Alt and SD8 be? It's normally off, with the primary alt normally on. Bus voltage over 13+ would indicate that the primary is working so would you shut it off and turn the SD8 on and check the battery bus voltage again. If so, there is that Alt off while running load dump thing again. (?) What would the approved preflight sequence look like? Thanks Bill S RV7a fuse/panel thinking wiring Arkansas ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:45 PM PST US From: "Wayne Sweet" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dynon Efis --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Wayne Sweet" I have a Dynon EFIS D10A with OAT and magnetometer. The DA and true airspeed seems to be very representative; DA compares well with that calculated in my GNS430. The magnetometer did not need any correction after the inclination was entered via the Support Program. A different program is used for that than that used to calibrate the heading magnetometer, both downloaded from Dynon's website. I had to shoot an ILS on the second flight to get back into my home airport and found using the EFIS with the OBS just under it, and the GNS430 under it was much easier than the old primary instrument scan. I mounted the magnetometer aft of the baggage area (this is in a MustangII); my compass mounted on the glare shield is nearly useless because of very large deviations (~10 to 25 deg), so the accurate heading information without ever having to update it is VERY nice. Installation was a breeze, compared to that of the GNS430, GI-106A and PMA6000 audio panel. I would NEVER do that wiring again; FastStack would have made the 45 day trial by "fire" a 4 day delight. I thought my avionics installation knowledge was rather OK, but I made some rookie mistakes that cost me some bad stomach aches along the way. There's nothing like not hearing COM audio on the first test and not having a clue what to look for. Then after fixing that, having awful COM reception on the 2nd flight and again not having a clue. Waking up in the morning after not sleeping much that night with absolutely no appetite and a huge knot in the gut, knowing that no one would be fixing the problem except the amateur avionics tech who installed it (ME!!!) was not pleasant. Also having a friend who continually, during those 45 days, kept asking "But what are you going to do if it doesn't work""!!" AGHHHH..................... Alls well that ends well. The EFIS is delightful and so to is the GNS430, as well as a true audio panel. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Gamble" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Dynon Efis > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Gamble" > > > Any reports (good and bad) on the Dynon 10A EFIS ? > Thanks > Mike Gamble > Building Europa Mono in UK > > > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 678 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now! ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:42 PM PST US From: Dj Merrill Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: TIS vs ADS-B --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill Tom Brusehaver wrote: > TIS-B is a superset of ADS-B. I know I have > seen the specs but right off I can't put my finger > on 'em. (It is probably a RCTA $pec) > > Here is a pretty good description of the differences > and similarities: > http://www.ep.liu.se/exjobb/itn/2004/kts/013/exjobb.pdf Thanks!!! Lots of good info in that doc! According to this document, it seems that TIS-B is a transition between the existing radar systems and the to-be-used-in-the-future ADS-B system. It is not really a superset of ADS-B, but it does seem to be the one with any coverage area now and in the near future. Eventually ADS-B is supposed to replace it, but that could take years, so it seems that TIS-B is the one to buy now if you want traffic information in the cockpit. Are there any transponders other than the Garmin 330 or other equipment that support TIS information? Any reasonably priced displays, certified or not, that will show the TIS data? I'd even consider a PDA display as a short term inexpensive display option. > Regular aeronautical charts, like what you would buy. > Heh heh, well I have those! :-) I'm looking for some additional help with spotting and avoiding traffic while flying. :-) Thanks for the info! It has been a big help! -Dj ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:41 PM PST US From: "Ernest Kells" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Installing a DAVTRON Outside Air Temp instrument. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ernest Kells" I have installed a Davtron OAT gauge 307FC - on the instrument panel. See A.C.S. catalogue, page 353. I would like to wire it now for mounting just inside the inner inspection plate of the right wing (RV-9A). I would like to cut the red/black wires for an AMP terminal block in the wing root, as well as one additional knife/disconnect connection. My question. Would the two connections compromise the capability of the instrument as well as the accuracy of the gauge? I live in Northern Ontario. OAT is a significant question. Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Jackson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft Development Expense > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Scott Jackson" > > > >> When I hear that designs are fixed due to the HUGE cost of FAA > >> certification, I don't believe it. The FAA is a bureaucracy but they > >> respond > >> to standard engineering documents. > > I disagree: check out this month's Aviation Consumer on page 20 to see just > how this mindset is holding us back.. > SCott in VAncover> > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:11 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Load Dump - Preflight --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:31 PM 1/13/2005 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Tierney" > >I was taught by several instructors to turn off the alternator during the >preflight check to verify that things work on the battery, that the ammeter >shows a draw on the battery and the low voltage light works. I've been >doing this by rote for years. But upon further review, the Cessna operating >manual, normal procedures section says: > >"Prior to flight where verification of proper alternator and alternator >control unit operation is essential (such as night or instrument flight) a >positive verification can be made by loading the electrical system >momentarily (3 to 5 seconds) with the landing light or by operating the wing >flaps during engine runup...." > > From now on, no more turning off the alternator. Thanks folks, If you have active notification of low voltage then that light should be flashing at you as soon as you bring the battery master on. Starting the engine should put out both the low volts warning and low oil pressure lights. If the OV system doesn't immediately take the system off line it's a 99.9% assurance that (1) the alternator came on line as soon as the engine started and that (2) it's not in an OV condition and is, therefore, operating properly. A check of any installed voltmeter will further reassure you of proper operation. Probability of detecting anything more interesting about the alternator by turning it off and back on is zero. There's no reason to "cycle" the thing after the engine starts. >I've been scanning these "load dump" things and have recently seen some >folks postulate some scenarios and also discuss internally regulated auto >alternators and auto wiring/electrical system architecture as they might >relate (or not) to aircraft ops. > > Someone mentioned that some folks have wanted to assure their alternators >are functioning properly before taking off and want something other than >absence of a "low voltage" light - so they turn off the alternator and check >the voltmeter? Actually, if they had a voltmeter, then they should only >need to see "13.4" or more and say "Alternator - OK". If it went >over-voltage, the OVM would kill the B-lead and he'd get a "low voltage >light". If it was putting out 13.0 v, that wouldn't charge a depleted >battery - the "low voltage light" should be on. > >Since some folks prefer not to have a voltmeter and use a loadmeter, I guess >you'd have to rely on the OVM and Low Voltage annuciator to tell you the >alternator voltage was fine., like above. Not at all . . . if you have a loadmeter, then any positive indication on the loadmeter commensurate with the readings you saw last time you started the engine combined with low voltage light being out are VERY good assurances of proper operation. >The only reason I can think of to turn off the alternator would be in >conjunction with turning off the battery (contactor) prior to an emergency >landing off field where sparks might be undesirable if parts of the engine >compartment, fuel tanks, etc were damaged/leaked and/or mashed >together/shorted. EXACTLY. >Is there a non-emergency scenario I've missed that would justify turning off >the alternator with the engine running with normal electrical loads "on"? >If not, then wouldn't a "switch guard" be cheaper and lower parts count than >adding transorbs and other gizmos to take care of accidental or "mind fart" >events? Not that I can think of. Switch guards are fine. Transorbs are cheap too. Checklists help fertilize habits of operation that are unlikely to give you heartburn. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:24 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Load Dump - Preflight From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Other than an additional power cycle on the gear, you could also check that everything is functional on battery alone prior to engine start. Regards, Matt- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Tierney" > > > I was taught by several instructors to turn off the alternator during > the preflight check to verify that things work on the battery, that the > ammeter shows a draw on the battery and the low voltage light works. > I've been doing this by rote for years. But upon further review, the > Cessna operating manual, normal procedures section says: > > "Prior to flight where verification of proper alternator and alternator > control unit operation is essential (such as night or instrument flight) > a positive verification can be made by loading the electrical system > momentarily (3 to 5 seconds) with the landing light or by operating the > wing flaps during engine runup...." > > From now on, no more turning off the alternator. Thanks folks, > > John Tierney > Salem, WI > RV-7 (under const.) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David > Carter > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Load Dump > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" > > > I've been scanning these "load dump" things and have recently seen some > folks postulate some scenarios and also discuss internally regulated > auto alternators and auto wiring/electrical system architecture as they > might relate (or not) to aircraft ops. > > Someone mentioned that some folks have wanted to assure their > alternators > are functioning properly before taking off and want something other than > absence of a "low voltage" light - so they turn off the alternator and > check the voltmeter? Actually, if they had a voltmeter, then they > should only need to see "13.4" or more and say "Alternator - OK". If it > went > over-voltage, the OVM would kill the B-lead and he'd get a "low voltage > light". If it was putting out 13.0 v, that wouldn't charge a depleted > battery - the "low voltage light" should be on. > > Since some folks prefer not to have a voltmeter and use a loadmeter, I > guess you'd have to rely on the OVM and Low Voltage annuciator to tell > you the alternator voltage was fine., like above. > > The only reason I can think of to turn off the alternator would be in > conjunction with turning off the battery (contactor) prior to an > emergency landing off field where sparks might be undesirable if parts > of the engine compartment, fuel tanks, etc were damaged/leaked and/or > mashed > together/shorted. > > Is there a non-emergency scenario I've missed that would justify turning > off the alternator with the engine running with normal electrical loads > "on"? If not, then wouldn't a "switch guard" be cheaper and lower parts > count than adding transorbs and other gizmos to take care of accidental > or "mind fart" events? (Those events do occur - I was in the back seat > of an F-100F as IP with a senior leader in front - we touched down at > the end of a mission and instead of "flaps up" the "gear handle" came > up!! Fortunately, the complete landing gear system was fully functional > and a safety switch kept the gear from retracting.) > > I think 'Lectric Bob's response at the bottom of this thread says it > all. Turn it on, leave it on until normal shutdown. Again, is there a > scenario someone is really fond of that this won't work for? > > David > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Maureen & Bob Christensen" > To: > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Load Dump > > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Maureen & Bob Christensen" > >> >> I've read more on this subject than I wanted to know! >> >> I have an internally regulated 55A alternator . . . I plan to turn the >> master switch on and leave it on! What additional "protection" do I >> need > to >> operate safely? . . . I am considering the addition of a second small >> battery or a B&C 8A Dynamo for back-up. >> >> Thanks, >> Bob >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >> To: >> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Load Dump >> >> >> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >> >> > >> > At 07:44 AM 1/12/2005 -0500, you wrote: >> > >> > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >> > > >> > > >> > >AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. >> Nuckolls, > III" >> > > >> > > >> > ><<....skip.....If you turn battery and alternator ON before >> starting > and >> > >leave them ON until engine is shut down, risk from load-dump >> > >is extremely low and predicated on failure of some part of the >> system's wiring or one of its components.....skip..... Bob>> >> > > >> > >1/12/2005 >> > > >> > >Hello Bob Nuckolls, I don't understand the necessity or >> desirability to >> have >> > >the alternator ON before starting the engine. What problem does it > create >> to >> > >turn the alternator ON after the engine is running? >> > > >> > >System involved is externally regulated (LR3B-14) single gear >> driven alternator, separate alternator field and battery switch, >> single > battery >> > >feeding a buss through a commonly available continuous duty >> contactor. >> > > >> > >Battery and alternator field switch are left ON at end of flight >> until >> after >> > >engine shut down. >> > >> > Define "problem" . . . in the spare intervals between battles >> with my Beechjet dragon, I've been noticing lots of worries >> about the effects of the "old crowbar ov system" etc (see >> chapter 6 of the 'Connection . . . crowbar ov systems have a >> rather young evolutionary history in aircraft and there are >> rational >> > reasons for its adoption). Just the fact that ordinary and >> expected transients occur in the operation of various system >> accessories becomes a new problem or worry for some folks. >> > >> > My recommendations for architecture using internally regulated >> alternators ASSUMED that folks would pretty much operate their >> alternators like I do in the spam cans I fly . . . there's no >> reason to be flipping switches with the alternator loaded and >> the engine spooled up except to watch the ammeters and >> voltmeters work. None the less, folks have done this and it >> uncovered (or created) a new "problem" that has simmered for >> some time on the various discussion groups. >> > >> > We can discuss the causes and effects of the various transients >> that occur during alternator switching and possibly come to some >> consensus that this particular manipulation of switches is >> "okay" while we worry about others. The 100% "solution" to all >> the "problems" of any magnitude is to simply turn everything on >> before starting and leave it on until the engine stops at >> > shutdown. The one modus operandi is "safe" irrespective of your >> regulator/alternator combination. >> > >> > >Many thanks for your continuing help to all of us. >> > >> > You're most welcome sir. >> > >> > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:18 PM PST US From: "Richard Talbot" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Dynon Efis --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard Talbot" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Wayne Sweet" I had to shoot an ILS on the second flight to get back into my home airport and found using the EFIS with the OBS just under it. You mean 2nd flight after installing the EFIS, I hope? Richard