---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 01/15/05: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:22 AM - Re: Dynon Efis (Wayne Sweet) 2. 08:23 AM - Re: Re: Dynon EFIS (Wayne Sweet) 3. 08:52 AM - Cat 5 (Glen Matejcek) 4. 09:00 AM - Re: panel mounted fuses.. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 11:07 AM - Re: Cat 5 (Maureen & Bob Christensen) 6. 12:05 PM - Re: panel mounted fuses.. (Tammy and Mike Salzman) 7. 02:23 PM - Re: panel mounted fuses.. (John Schroeder) 8. 04:31 PM - Re: Cat 5 (Robert McCallum) 9. 06:21 PM - Contactor identification (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 07:18 PM - The dragon is slain . . . or at least hog-tied. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 10:48 PM - WAAS or not (Rob Logan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:22:15 AM PST US From: "Wayne Sweet" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dynon Efis --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Wayne Sweet" Here's the link: http://www.approach-systems.com/prod.asp Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Schlanser" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dynon Efis > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Eric Schlanser > > > > Wayne, > > What is the FastStack of which you speak? I am unable to find a reference > to it. > > Thanks, Eric > > > Time: 07:36:45 PM PST US > From: "Wayne Sweet" > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dynon Efis > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Wayne Sweet" > > > I have a Dynon EFIS D10A with OAT and magnetometer. > > > Installation was a breeze, compared to that of the GNS430, GI-106A and > PMA6000 audio panel. I would NEVER do that wiring again; FastStack > would > have made the 45 day trial by "fire" a 4 day delight. > > > --------------------------------- > > > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 689 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now! ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:01 AM PST US From: "Wayne Sweet" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dynon EFIS --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Wayne Sweet" Dan, If you dumped the DG and got the Dynon magnetometer option, you could also dump the vacuum pump. This makes the aft end of the engine much more clear for oil filter access AND, under the instrument panel the hoses and filter for the vacuum gage are GONE!!!!! YEH!!!!!! The back of my instrument panel is so much more accessible now with all that garbage gone. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan O'Brien" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dynon EFIS > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan O'Brien" > > Haven't flown my Lancair ES yet, but fired up the Dynon (D10, the old > version) in the panel for the first time yesterday. I've replaced my > Attitude indicator with the Dynon, but have retained the five other > standard instruments. I couldn't be more thrilled. For the price of an > RC > Allen AI, I've got an AI plus back ups for the five other instruments, > plus > some extras (voltage, g meter, timer), all on a single screen. It's also > got 5 checklists which were simple to program and load. It was also > simple > to update the software from my laptop. The display is bright and > readable, > and my simple "garage test" (moving the panel up, down, sideways, and > banking, as if in flight) suggests that it will be GREAT. Given the > instruments newness and relative lack of experience in the field, I > personally would not rely solely on the Dynon in IMC. The company (which > seems to be "doing it right") says as much on its website. But as a > replacement for a single instrument in a systematic instrument scan, I > personally have no hesitation. I think it's a HUGE improvement over a > single mechanical electric gyro because of the additional backups. It's > reliability remains to be seen, but it is hard to imagine that a solid > state unit like this won't do better than existing mechanical electric > gyros, which do not seem to have a great track record. > > > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 689 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:52:01 AM PST US From: "Glen Matejcek" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cat 5 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" Hi All- Can someone explain to me the significance of cat5 and or cat5e cable? What makes it special? When would I want to use it vs a bundle of plain old fashioned MS tefzel? Thanks guys- I haven't found any help locally! Glen Matejcek aerobubba@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:45 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: panel mounted fuses.. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:38 PM 1/14/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rob Logan > >klixon 7277 breakers are $20 each >http://www.ti.com/snc/products/controls/acb-7277.htm > >so when a switch is required, (lights, tube heat..) >potter & brumfield switch/breakers seem to be >the best option. have you considered: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/fuseorcb.html >but for items that just need wire protection >and not a load shedding "off" option . . . Why are you considering variables of selective load shedding in flight? It's seems best to have a simple array of planned activities to manage energy consumption and to achieve fault tolerant design. See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev9/ch17-9.pdf http://aeroelectric.com/articles/neveragain/neveragain_2.html >, perhaps >fuses would be ok. Found some fuses holders >http://www.excess-solutions.com/FUSES.HTM >and one even with fast on terminals >http://www.excess-solutions.com/SpecSheets/c_fiz.pdf >but I don't see an easy way to attach a bar across a >row of them.. Plus it would be nice if one could swap >fuses without a screw driver. > >have you find a better panel mounted fuse >holder? (or a cheap source of klixons? :-) Why would you WANT one? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:07:40 AM PST US From: "Maureen & Bob Christensen" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cat 5 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Maureen & Bob Christensen" The only "Cat5" cable that I'm familiar with is for network (Ethernet) wiring. I don't know if the make it in tefzel or not but I suppose they do. Regards, Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Matejcek" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cat 5 > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" > > Hi All- > > Can someone explain to me the significance of cat5 and or cat5e cable? > What makes it special? When would I want to use it vs a bundle of plain > old fashioned MS tefzel? > > Thanks guys- I haven't found any help locally! > > > Glen Matejcek > aerobubba@earthlink.net > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:30 PM PST US From: Tammy and Mike Salzman Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: panel mounted fuses.. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tammy and Mike Salzman Rob, You might want to consider the following fuse holders. http://order.waytekwire.com/IMAGES/M37/catalog/217_063 They accept the ATO/ATC automotive fuses. If your fingers are not too fat, you can remove the fuses without tools. :) They can handle 200 total amps. I bought the rear terninal model and mounted on the far right side of the panel. Mike Salzman LNCE Fairfield, CA --- Rob Logan wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rob Logan > > klixon 7277 breakers are $20 each > http://www.ti.com/snc/products/controls/acb-7277.htm > > so when a switch is required, (lights, tube heat..) > potter & brumfield switch/breakers seem to be > the best option. > > but for items that just need wire protection > and not a load shedding "off" option, perhaps > fuses would be ok. Found some fuses holders > http://www.excess-solutions.com/FUSES.HTM > and one even with fast on terminals > http://www.excess-solutions.com/SpecSheets/c_fiz.pdf > but I don't see an easy way to attach a bar across a > row of them.. Plus it would be nice if one could swap > fuses without a screw driver. > > have you find a better panel mounted fuse > holder? (or a cheap source of klixons? :-) > > > Rob __________________________________ http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:23:19 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: panel mounted fuses.. From: "John Schroeder" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" Rob & Mike - We installed two of these Bussman fuse blocks in our panel. The nice part about them is that you can take the snap-on cover off and get to the fuses easily for maintenance. We bought the ones that are split buss types - the Bussman Model 15710. The top stud feeds the first 20 fuses and the bottom feeds the remaining 8. Good for a primary and endurance buss setup or primary and avionics setup. David Swartzendruber is a builder like us'ns. He also sells 14/6's for a very reasaonable price as a kit. Check out his web page. http://www.mihdirect.biz/ Or email him for more details. "David Swartzendruber" Cheers, John > Rob, > > You might want to consider the following fuse holders. > > http://order.waytekwire.com/IMAGES/M37/catalog/217_063 > > They accept the ATO/ATC automotive fuses. If your fingers are not too > fat, you can remove the fuses without tools. :) They can handle 200 > total amps. I bought the rear terninal model and mounted on the far > right side of the panel. > > Mike Salzman > LNCE > Fairfield, CA ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:31:39 PM PST US From: Robert McCallum Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cat 5 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert McCallum Glen Matejcek wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" > >Hi All- > >Can someone explain to me the significance of cat5 and or cat5e cable? >What makes it special? When would I want to use it vs a bundle of plain >old fashioned MS tefzel? > > For the most part you wouldn't. Cat5 is for wiring your home computer. (or your business network) >Thanks guys- I haven't found any help locally! > > >Glen Matejcek >aerobubba@earthlink.net > > Bob McC ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Contactor identification --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >Comments/Questions: Dear Bob; > Do you have the difference in A/C Starter vs Master solenoids. >Measured values. How to tell the difference if not marked ? The coils should >be the key, but what are their different values ??? > Thanks Continuous duty contactors cannot survive if they dissipate more than 15 watts or so internally . . . hence a battery contactor will generally draw 1 amp or less (12 ohm coil minimum). An intermittent duty contactor may draw 3-5 times this current and will have a coil resistance under 6 ohms. I will invite you to join us on the AeroElectric List to continue this and similar discussions. It's useful to share the information with as many folks as possible. A further benefit can be realized with membership on the list. There are lots of technically capable folks on the list who can offer suggestions too. You can join at . . . http://www.matronics.com/subscribe/ Thanks! Bob . . . -------------------------------------------- ( Knowing about a thing is different than ) ( understanding it. One can know a lot ) ( and still understand nothing. ) ( C.F. Kettering ) -------------------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:58 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: The dragon is slain . . . or at least hog-tied. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" I think I mentioned that I've been extra ordinarily pre-occupied with troubleshooting a tripping generator problem in a Beechjet for the past few weeks. Thought I'd share some of the blood and gore with our friends on the List. The airplane has been out of service since about a month before the Christmas shutdown. The owner's service shop worked on it for three weeks. One of our techs went to join them for another week. Left generator would trip every time a heavy load was switched on, especially the air conditioner that has about 1000A inrush. Right generator worked fine. EVERYTHING was swapped from side to side, sometimes more than once. Problem stayed on left side. They brought the airplane to Wichita and we dug into it a couple of days before Christmas. Interesting thing about working on bizjets is the EXTRA care one must take to avoid scratching cabinets, poking holes in leather seats, dropping solder blobs into the carpets, etc, etc. ANYTHING you bugger in one of those airplanes is measured in WEEKS of pay. Generator control circuitry is inside pressure vessel at rear of cabin so I had test equipment and/or tools setting in about every seat (after we covered them up). A bizjet makes a terrible research lab. The thing weighs 10,000 pounds, costs several millions, has to be maneuvered with a tug and crew of 4. You can't run the engines at high power anywhere but at the compass rose or unused taxiway, all of which were 1/2 mile or more from the hangar. Over the three weeks I've worked it, we were dragged in and out of the hangar about a dozen times. I built special breakout boxes to instrument the system and educated myself on the idiosyncrasies of this particular system. Crawling around in the aft cabin was like working in the bottom of a 55 gallon drum. EVERY experiment was a minimum two-hour to one-day turnaround. We examined EVERY operational and physical aspect of the left system and compared it with the right hand system . . . I've got a stack of 'scope traces a half-inch thick!. Upshot was that noise was getting into the ground fault detection system. Ground fault detection was added to the local biz-jet markets in the early 80s . . . I recall quoting some equipment to Beech while working with Electro-Mech about that same time. In the last few weeks of getting up close and personal with the ground fault detection system, I've deduced that this "safety" mandate has yet to keep any airplane from catching fire but has generated $millions$ in troubleshooting costs. The cost of this experience alone probably totals $30,000 and that doesn't include lost revenue for down time of the asset. Being dyed-in-the-wool electro-wienners, we were all looking for an electronic problem. After deducing that the noise was coming from one of the two ground fault transformers in the system, we began to look at proximity effects. Turns out that a bleed air tube was too close to the transformer's most vulnerable deficiency . . . the upper corners where the cores have brass-shimmed gaps to calibrate performance. Susceptibility to external magnetic influences is greatest at these gaps. Magnetic forces leaking from field ring of generator were coupling to engine and inducing very low voltage noises in engine components. Part of these noises flowed out on the bleed air plumbing and coupled to the gap in the transformer's magnetic core. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Too_Close.jpg Moving the transformer 1" away from the bleed air tube dropped the noise levels to 1/20th of what they had been. If this had been a modern, toroidal core transformer, the problem would never have showed up. Seems that these tubes are weldments (wide dimensional tolerances for position) and include soft joints for expansion due to heating. Not sure how they're going to get the spacing back to the more usual 1" . . . but that's a job for a power-plant guy. After three weeks of troubleshooting in the bottom of a barrel in an ice storm, I'm ready to hand the task over to someone else. I think I've mentioned on the list several times that there's not a noise problem out there that cannot be whipped. Further, when it's fixed, the solution will turn out to be stone simple in principle. However, just because it's simple doesn't make it easy to understand and find. Now, we still don't have true root cause . . . we don't fully understand the mechanism by which this noise propagates to the bleed air tube and ultimately to the transformer. I'd really like to do the rest of the science but as I said, a working bizjet is a terrible and expensive research laboratory. Don't think they'd let me have it for two more weeks after I told them what was needed to make the machine airworthy again. My superiors are eager for me to do a white-paper on the experience to circulate around RAC service centers . . . and probably do a lunchtime learning presentation for my associates at RAC. Once the "simple" is identified and understood, it behoves us to spread the word to any who have an interest. Looking forward to a tighter coupling with the List in the near future. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:42 PM PST US From: Rob Logan Subject: AeroElectric-List: WAAS or not --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Rob Logan posted this on a lancair list, but you guys might enjoy it too. -Rob WAAS corrected GPS are all the rage. It offers: 1) takes GPS from 6.0m to 3.2m Horizontal accuracy with 95% confidence. 2) promise of newly written vertical LPV guided approaches. 3) promise of maybe getting "Sole means" en route blessing. It's true WAAS improves accuracy: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/Ftp/gps/status.txt http://users.erols.com/dlwilson/gpswaas.htm http://waas.stanford.edu/metrics.html http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/dgps.htm http://www.edu-observatory.org/gps/gps_accuracy.html http://gpsinformation.net/exe/iono-day.gif Ionosphere temp http://www.igeb.gov/sa/diagram.shtml http://www.montana.edu/places/gps/lres357/slides/GPSaccuracy.ppt http://www.montana.edu/places/gps/lres357/slides/GPSstatus.ppt and I did find 9 airports with a LPV DA: http://rob.com/airports/M/G/M http://rob.com/airports/M/S/L http://rob.com/airports/F/D/K http://rob.com/airports/G/A/I http://rob.com/airports/O/K/C http://rob.com/airports/S/L/O http://rob.com/airports/J/Y/O http://rob.com/airports/H/E/F http://rob.com/airports/O/S/H Two of them with lower mins! so one does get greater capability today with WAAS corrections. But this way over budget, way late government project also came with a mild threat by Administrator Blakey at the AOPA convention: "if you are slow to equip [with WAAS], there will be folks who will say there aren't enough users in the system and push to move the money away from developing and maintaining procedures for all those airports I talked about." http://www.faa.gov/newsroom/speeches/Blakey/2004/speeches_blakey_041021.htm Users of http://www.freeflightsystems.com/ the first WAAS corrected GPS, started complaining about losing position reports. Then CNX80 (second WAAS corrected gps) users also started noticing failed in flight position reports. When I started playing with a gps18, it worked fine on the ground, but when I turned away from the southern sky it would freeze its position. http://rob.com/lancair/flights/kirk/1gps.gif What's going on here? While I'm not saying GPS is junk http://www.gtwn.net/~keith.peshak/SatNavStatus.htm because we have been using it reliably for years, but let's look closer at the WAAS corrections: with 25 ground reference stations http://gpsinformation.net/exe/waas-coverage-dale.gif transmitting corrections to (Inmarsat IIIs: POR (Pacific Ocean Region) http://www.lyngsat.com/tracker/inmar3f3.shtml or AOR-W (Atlantic Ocean Region-West) http://www.lyngsat.com/tracker/inmar3f4.shtml These satellites are 22,300 miles above the equator vs 12,600 miles mostly over our head. If we look at the angle of the satellite TV dishes in our neighborhood, they point low on the horizon to get a satellite above the equator. That one signal is going twice as far, through more ionosphere. And unlike your satTV dish, the antenna must be omni directional, making it impossible to achieve any forward gain. When we lose this one signal, we lose the whole position solution. So is going from 6.0m to 3.2m with 95% accuracy worth the increased loss of availability? Wouldn't we increase safety by providing some information rather than no information? (this is a big one for the FAA) Perhaps with some new antenna technology, my point will be mute, but the 3 WAAS receivers I've tried, and all unlocked without southern sky. Heck, this new magic antenna will increase the reliability of wsi and xm weather service, as they face the same weak signal challenge, and are unavailable in an uncorrected way. (the weather service, Merlin, failed because they couldn't make an antenna that worked) Is accepting the added risk of a more complex system worth it? FADEC vs mags EFIS vs HSI WAAS vs GPS without corrections. Bonus question: is a TSOed C129A receiver with Receiver Autonomous Integrity Monitoring (RAIM) better than a 12 channel all in the sky receiver? BTW, http://d2av.com has been offering barro corrected GS below MDA from FAF to MAP on *all* approches for 5+ years, without WAAS or a TSOed GPS, but please stay legal.