Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:28 AM - Starter Contactor (Ron Schreck)
2. 06:42 AM - Re: Open letter to the list (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 06:51 AM - Re: Open letter to the list (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 02:03 PM - Re: Open letter to the list (D Fritz)
5. 06:41 PM - Re: Starter Contactor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 07:23 PM - More on batteries and wiring... (Frank & Dorothy)
7. 07:51 PM - Re: More on batteries and wiring... clamav-milter (Charlie England)
8. 07:56 PM - Re: Open letter to the list (George Braly)
9. 08:20 PM - Interest level in RG-400 cable at discount (SportAV8R@aol.com)
10. 09:22 PM - Re: Interest level in RG-400 cable at discount (Jack)
11. 09:53 PM - Power supply (John F. Herminghaus)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Starter Contactor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Schreck" <ronschreck@webkorner.com>
Note: Messages forwarded from RV List:
Excellent point! After I read this post I dove into Bob Nuckolls' "AeroElectric
Connection" and found that ALL of his sample electic wiring schematics have
a starter contactor. I have great respect for "Electric" Bob yet I see your
point as well. I'm hoping Bob will jump on this thread and shed some light on
this issue. Come in Bob!
Ron Schreck
RV-8
Gold Hill, NC
>>> Why do you need another starter contactor in the first place? There's
one built into the starter. Disconnect the jumper from the big
terminal on the starter, run a wire from it to your starter switch,
then a diode from the starter side of the switch to ground to prevent
arcing in the switch or contactor. I have had this setup since day
one on my -6 and have never had any trouble with it.
Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Open letter to the list |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:56 PM 1/26/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
> > But, I and other equally experienced electrical and electronic engineers
> > have some concerns with some of the positions and recommendations of the
> > Aeroelectric connection web site as well as this list.
>
> >>>>>
>
>As well do theologians, politicians, and scientists of any vein have of their
>particular pursuits. This is how we naturally select. In my minds' eye I
>see a pair of sharp eyes in Kansas above a gray beard rubbing his palms
>together, ready to attack the keyboard. Have at it folks, we all win in
>this contest-
>stay tuned; should be entertaining, educational, and verrrrrrryyy
>eenterrestink..........
Close but no cigar. I'll remind folks that the ultimate proof
of any science is the repeatable experiment. George says he can
blow transorbs in a heartbeat. We'll need details of his test
environment before any query or argument can be mounted. Paul
says he has come conclusions to make based on his testing. I presume
he'll be willing to detail his experiments. If I have anything to
contribute to the conversations, I'll have to either (1) show where
the setup is wrong or (2) explain how the interpretation is in
error or (3) go to the shop and repeat the experiment for closer
examination.
When the dust settles, it may well be that solutions offered are
ALL applicable to some degree based on design goals of the builder.
In these cases, anyone with a solution to offer SHOULD be able
to explain exactly how it ranks among other solutions. My personal
mission is not to discourage anyone from from adopting a solution
or design philosophy as long as everything we know about it
has been explained and understood. It's like the old Sears
catalogs where one could select from three levels of performance
in products . . . Good, better and best. My personal design
philosophy is to strive for the best we know how to do and to
keep advancing on the state of our art . . . but in no
way do I intend to throw mud at the "good" or "better" philosophies
as long as they are FAILURE TOLERANT and good value for the
expenditure of time and cash.
Watch this space. We can only get better at what we do.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Open letter to the list |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:56 PM 1/26/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
> > But, I and other equally experienced electrical and electronic engineers
> > have some concerns with some of the positions and recommendations of the
> > Aeroelectric connection web site as well as this list.
>
> >>>>>
>
>As well do theologians, politicians, and scientists of any vein have of their
>particular pursuits. This is how we naturally select. In my minds' eye I
>see a pair of sharp eyes in Kansas above a gray beard rubbing his palms
>together, ready to attack the keyboard. Have at it folks, we all win in
>this contest-
>stay tuned; should be entertaining, educational, and verrrrrrryyy
>eenterrestink..........
I didn't see this posting and place it in the right context before
I crafted my earlier message. Yes, I will approach any discussion
with enthusiasm and yes, enthusiasm is an emotion. Folks should
be aware that I, Paul, George or anyone else may step into the
arena with what some will interpret to be heavy clubs and a blood
in the eye demeanor. However, I trust that resolution of ideas is
always is achievable. Further, when we're through swinging
"clubs", there will be no broken bones nor blood on the ground
. . . and we'll all go out for a beer afterwards.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Open letter to the list |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: D Fritz <dfritzj@yahoo.com>
Paul,
Please continue in your line of discussion. I have great respect for Bob and his
ideas (he's convinced me to abandon many of my own ideas as too complex for
the value they added.) However, there are times when Bob's response comes off
the page as implying that the questions are foolish or of no value. I don't
think this is what he means (forgive me for trying to read between lines), but
it does have the effect you describe: it stops some from asking hard (or simple)
questions and challenging the "status quo." The ideals of this board are
based in the idea that discussion and challenge are good for the advancement
of the state of aircraft electric and electronic systems, if we squelch ideas
we diminish the capacity to achieve those ideals. Please continue in the discussions
that challenge some of the long-held ideas espoused on this board as
there are lots of us out here (non-EEs) who are really learning a lot about the
subject and enjoy the possibility to see both sides
of the
issues. We're all human, and ANY one of us on this list can be wrong.
Thanks,
Dan Fritz
---------------------------------
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
See http://aeroelectric.com/articles/strtctr.pdf
and figure Z-22 of
http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev10/z10.pdf
Bob . . .
>Excellent point! After I read this post I dove into Bob
>Nuckolls' "AeroElectric Connection" and found that ALL of his sample
>electic wiring schematics have a starter contactor. I have great respect
>for "Electric" Bob yet I see your point as well. I'm hoping Bob will jump
>on this thread and shed some light on this issue. Come in Bob!
>
>Ron Schreck
>RV-8
>Gold Hill, NC
>
>
> >>> Why do you need another starter contactor in the first place? There's
> one built into the starter. Disconnect the jumper from the big
> terminal on the starter, run a wire from it to your starter switch,
> then a diode from the starter side of the switch to ground to prevent
> arcing in the switch or contactor. I have had this setup since day
> one on my -6 and have never had any trouble with it.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Japundza
> RV-6 flying F1 under const.
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.6 - Release Date: 1/27/2005
>
>
>-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265 - Release Date: 1/27/2005
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | More on batteries and wiring... |
clamav-milter version 0.80j
on dbmail-mx4.orcon.co.nz
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Frank & Dorothy <frankv@infogen.net.nz>
Hi all,
Short story: A 12v 7Ah RG battery is fine to start a small engine.
Long story:
Well, I bit the bullet and bought a 12V 7Ah RG battery for my Kawasaki
440cc engine. I experimented with a few different wires to connect it to
the starter motor. According to some docs I have, the starter motor
should pull 18-20 amps.
1. Holding some 3m long wires sold by Super Cheap Autos (no really,
that's their name) as 20A capable on to the battery terminals with my
fingers (for a quick test, you understand), the starter motor didn't
turn over and I burnt my fingertips :-( Don't try this at home, kids!
2. Using the same 3m 20A wires securely attached to the battery
terminals, the starter barely chugged over once.
3. Using the heavy starter motor wires (again, not sure what gauge) that
came with the engine, it worked perfectly.
So far, I have started the engine about 8 or 9 times without recharging
the battery -- I haven't connected up the voltage regulator yet.
I was a bit worried about whether the battery's push-on spade terminals
would cope with the starting current, but obviously that wasn't a problem.
Whilst talking about terminals... does anyone have any suggestions about
how to connect other wires to the battery along with the heavy starter
wires? Because my plane is a pusher, the battery will physically be
between the engine and panel. I don't see any sense in running wires
from the engine right past the battery to the panel. But I also don't
want to cut the heavy cable to put in a connector.
Frank
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: More on batteries and wiring... clamav-milter |
version 0.80j on dbmail-mx4.orcon.co.nz
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Frank & Dorothy wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Frank & Dorothy <frankv@infogen.net.nz>
>
>Hi all,
>
>Short story: A 12v 7Ah RG battery is fine to start a small engine.
>
>Long story:
>Well, I bit the bullet and bought a 12V 7Ah RG battery for my Kawasaki
>440cc engine. I experimented with a few different wires to connect it to
>the starter motor. According to some docs I have, the starter motor
>should pull 18-20 amps.
>
>1. Holding some 3m long wires sold by Super Cheap Autos (no really,
>that's their name) as 20A capable on to the battery terminals with my
>fingers (for a quick test, you understand), the starter motor didn't
>turn over and I burnt my fingertips :-( Don't try this at home, kids!
>2. Using the same 3m 20A wires securely attached to the battery
>terminals, the starter barely chugged over once.
>3. Using the heavy starter motor wires (again, not sure what gauge) that
>came with the engine, it worked perfectly.
>
>So far, I have started the engine about 8 or 9 times without recharging
>the battery -- I haven't connected up the voltage regulator yet.
>
>I was a bit worried about whether the battery's push-on spade terminals
>would cope with the starting current, but obviously that wasn't a problem.
>
>Whilst talking about terminals... does anyone have any suggestions about
>how to connect other wires to the battery along with the heavy starter
>wires? Because my plane is a pusher, the battery will physically be
>between the engine and panel. I don't see any sense in running wires
>from the engine right past the battery to the panel. But I also don't
>want to cut the heavy cable to put in a connector.
>
>Frank
>
Spade terminals are available that will 'stack'. Try Digikey.com or
Mouser.com.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Open letter to the list |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" <gwbraly@gami.com>
Bob,
40 amp ND alternator.
Under load at 4000 shaft RPM and 30-35 amps at 28 volts.
An 11,000 uF cap on line.
Load consists of landing lights - - not atypical.
Kill the landing lights with no battery on the circuit, and I could repeatedly
fry 5KW transorbs rated at 36 volts.
I was also frying a 5 volt switching power supply (rated to take 60 volt inputs)
on the same circuit.
This was not very complicated but it was repeatable, and of course, unacceptable.
By the way, this issue is a real problem. Now recognized on certified aircraft.
Recently the German FAA type folks had to issue an AD against the Thielert
125Hp diesel engine because it was failing due to electrical failure (engine
is dependant upon the electron pump) when the battery relay failed and the battery
was off line... and the regulator/alternator was self-destructing - - - thus
causing the engine to quit.
Regards, George
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Open letter to the list
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:56 PM 1/26/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
> > But, I and other equally experienced electrical and electronic engineers
> > have some concerns with some of the positions and recommendations of the
> > Aeroelectric connection web site as well as this list.
>
> >>>>>
>
>As well do theologians, politicians, and scientists of any vein have of their
>particular pursuits. This is how we naturally select. In my minds' eye I
>see a pair of sharp eyes in Kansas above a gray beard rubbing his palms
>together, ready to attack the keyboard. Have at it folks, we all win in
>this contest-
>stay tuned; should be entertaining, educational, and verrrrrrryyy
>eenterrestink..........
I didn't see this posting and place it in the right context before
I crafted my earlier message. Yes, I will approach any discussion
with enthusiasm and yes, enthusiasm is an emotion. Folks should
be aware that I, Paul, George or anyone else may step into the
arena with what some will interpret to be heavy clubs and a blood
in the eye demeanor. However, I trust that resolution of ideas is
always is achievable. Further, when we're through swinging
"clubs", there will be no broken bones nor blood on the ground
. . . and we'll all go out for a beer afterwards.
Bob . . .
---
---
Message 9
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| Subject: | Interest level in RG-400 cable at discount |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
I have a chance to purchase RG-400 coax in bulk, and could part out a roll to builders
at 1.00/foot in any length. If there's interest, I'll close the deal.
A bulk spool of this stuff is way more than I need to finish rewiring my RV,
but if it'll help some other OBAM guys, I'm willing to fool with it, just this
once. Reply off list only, please. Do not archive.
-Bill B.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Interest level in RG-400 cable at discount |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jack <jgh2@charter.net>
On Thursday, January 27, 2005, at 11:19 PM, SportAV8R@aol.com wrote:
> I have a chance to purchase RG-400 coax in bulk, and could part out a
> roll to builders at 1.00/foot in any length.
Bill,
I bought some RG-400 a few months ago at a great price and can supply
you or others for $.50/foot plus shipping.
Jack H.
RV-6A
P. S. Also have the BNC male connectors and tools to make completed
cables but the price would be significantly higher because I'm tired of
the "strip, crimp and shrink" routine.
Message 11
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John F. Herminghaus" <catignano@tele2.it>
Bob:
It is normal to put more than one engine instrument on a fuse or cb ,
but what about the power leads? Can the be daisy chained or do you
recommend separate wires for each device?
John Herminghaus
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