Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:32 AM - Re: Electrical System Design (Richard Talbot)
2. 02:00 AM - Re: Alternator light misteries (Hans Teijgeler)
3. 04:00 AM - Re: Stereo vs. Mono Headphone Jacks (Charles Heathco)
4. 04:43 AM - E-Mag/P-Mag electrical info (Werner Schneider)
5. 04:59 AM - Alternators (Alex Peterson)
6. 05:09 AM - Re: Com antenna relay?? (Ken)
7. 05:09 AM - Re: Alternator light misteries (Ken)
8. 05:26 AM - Re: Dual Alternators (Jim Butcher)
9. 05:46 AM - Ignition switches (Gary Casey)
10. 05:48 AM - Re: Alternators (Ken)
11. 06:19 AM - Re: Alternator light misteries (Hans Teijgeler)
12. 06:20 AM - Re: LED Bias Resistors (John Schroeder)
13. 06:31 AM - Wiring Whelan Strobes ()
14. 06:36 AM - Re: LED Bias Resistors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 06:37 AM - Re: Ignition switches (Glaeser, Dennis A)
16. 06:41 AM - Re: Alternators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 06:55 AM - Re: LED Bias Resistors (John Schroeder)
18. 06:55 AM - Stereo vs. Mono Headphone Jacks ()
19. 07:53 AM - Re: Ignition switches (Pat Hatch)
20. 07:53 AM - Re: Dual Alternators (Dennis Golden)
21. 08:18 AM - wing wiring ground returns (Jay Brinkmeyer)
22. 08:40 AM - Re: E-Mag/P-Mag electrical info (rv-9a-online)
23. 08:56 AM - Re: Wiring Whelan Strobes (Mickey Coggins)
24. 09:46 AM - Re: Wiring Whelan Strobes (Larry McFarland)
25. 09:47 AM - wiring P-Mag ignitions (Karen and Robert Brown)
26. 09:58 AM - Re: Wiring Whelan Strobes (John Schroeder)
27. 10:00 AM - Re: wing wiring ground returns (rv-9a-online)
28. 10:03 AM - Re: E-Mag/P-Mag electrical info (Leo J. Corbalis)
29. 10:12 AM - Re: wing wiring ground returns (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
30. 10:27 AM - Re: Wiring Whelan Strobes (bnoon12@comcast.net)
31. 11:05 AM - Encoder Question- Dynon D10A coupled to Garmin GTX 320A or GTX 327 (Alexander, Don)
32. 12:27 PM - Re: Wiring Whelan Strobes (Mickey Coggins)
33. 12:39 PM - Re: wiring P-Mag ignitions (Greg Young)
34. 12:53 PM - Re: Encoder Question- Dynon D10A coupled to Garmin (rv-9a-online)
35. 01:12 PM - Re: E-Mag/P-Mag electrical info (rv-9a-online)
36. 01:16 PM - Re: wiring P-Mag ignitions (SportAV8R@aol.com)
37. 02:04 PM - Re: wiring P-Mag ignitions (dsvs@comcast.net)
38. 03:08 PM - Re: wiring P-Mag ignitions (rv-9a-online)
39. 04:16 PM - Stereo vs. Mono Headphone Jacks (Dennis Johnson)
40. 05:31 PM - Re: Alternators (Alex Peterson)
41. 07:05 PM - Dual Alternator/Dual Battery monitoring. (Ben Schneider)
42. 07:08 PM - Re: LED Bias Resistor (Eric M. Jones)
43. 09:14 PM - Re: Dual Alternator/Dual Battery monitoring. (mkejrj@comcast.net)
44. 09:50 PM - 02/07/05 A Forced Landing (Eric Ruttan)
45. 10:25 PM - Ammeter/voltmeter Gauge (Dick Fisher)
46. 11:39 PM - Re: 02/07/05 A Forced Landing (Mickey Coggins)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Electrical System Design |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard Talbot" <rwtalbot@purephotos.com.au>
Bob and List,
Sorry it has taken me a while to reply to your message. I appreciated the
information and I do agree with what you have said here. The B&C product
range has an excellent reputation and it is certainly true you get what you
pay for.
Re the Zeftronics regulator I have researched the R15V00RevA unit that
appears to be a fairly good match with the B&C Unit.
(http://www.zeftronics.com/documents/pit/R15V00RevA-PIT.pdf)
From looking at the datasheet and the schematic it would appear that the
unit does not have "Crowbar OV Protection". Given that the unit appears to
be designed to handle a 60A alternator, would you expect this to be a
disadvantage?
From what I can gather there appear to be a few advantages to the Crowbar OV
protection:
Ability to reset the alternator by re-setting the CB after the fault.
Safe discharge of the fault to ground via the breaker.
I like both of these ideas in an all electric plane. I have not been able
to determine if I would be able to bring the Zeftronics alternator back
online if the OV protection was triggered.
Ideally, you would like to be able to restart the alternator in flight even
if the regulator was faulty? I would assume this would allow you to charge
the battery when it became discharged, even if the alternator was not
properly regulated.
Thanks
Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Electrical System Design
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:50 PM 2/1/2005 +1100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard Talbot"
><rwtalbot@purephotos.com.au>
>
>Hi Chuck,
>
>The regulator I mention is the B&C LR16-14 listed on their site for $228.
>This regulator is specifically mentioned in Chapter 4 of Bob's book Page
>4-7. The implication is that it is the most complete and easiest regulator
>to use. As I see it the chapter is aimed at describing why Auto gear is
not
>a great idea in an aircraft. I do see the point, but the external
regulator
>alone is worth more than the whole box and dice from Vans. The basic
>diagrams also feature the regulator.
I designed the earliest versions of the LR series regulators
for B&C and most of the original design philosophy persists in
present versions. We debated at length whether to offer three
separate components (regulator, ov protection, lv warning) or
some intermediate combinations. Certainly ANY externally regulated
alternator will function just fine with about ANY external regulator.
The final decision was driven by a philosophy that encouraged
builders to have ALL THREE devices as a part of their power
generation system. Further, if the builder's time was worth
anything and assuming there's value in reducing risk of installation
errors, the decision was made to put all three devices in a
single enclosure. So, for about 15 years I've fielded complaints
about the cost of this product . . . and offered the idea
that it's really three $75.00 products already assembled for
you in one box.
To be sure, this product line is getting long in the tooth
and if B&C expects to maintain the hard won popularity of
the product, they should be looking at the next generation
devices. The trend in virtually every product using
electronics is more capability for less money next week.
I understand that Zeftronics already offers similar capability
in an integrated alternator controller for about half the price.
I asked Bill a few years ago what he was planning to do to
obsolete this product and didn't get an answer.
The Z-figures feature the LR series regulators but alternatives
are offered too. One can assemble generic components like the
stone simple Ford regulator, an ov protection system and
active notification of low voltage and achieve the same level
of performance (if not convenience) for under $100 total.
>The alternator in question is the B&C L60. $595 on their website. I would
>assume that it is the easiest to use on a B&C regulator. It also makes use
>of the technology mentioned in Ch-3. Balanced, better bearings, external
>regulation etc. May not be the cheapest way to go.
If you purchase a brand new ND alternator from any source
and spend the time and effort to achieve a condition
equivalent to the B&C L-40 or L-60 alternators, I'll
bet the total $time$ expended will exceed the
price from B&C.
Numbers of folk have offered their own solutions to
modifying various alternators based on their own
experiences and suggested that these alternatives
offer better value. It's a judgement call for every
builder to decide how the economics of $time$ fit
into their project decisions. It's often been suggested
that the average builder (whatever that is) would spend
less total $time$ acquiring an airplane if they
got a part time job and used the money from that job
to pay for an airplane as opposed to building it.
It's an acknowledge fact that all education is
expensive and the root commodity we all have to invest
in getting smarter is $time$. The purchased airplane
only makes you better plying the skills of your part
time job while building it adds to your knowledge and
skills base. So I presume that all of you are driven
more by the pleasure of finding things out than you
are for the simple task of acquiring and owning an airplane.
>Point taken on the batteries and alternators, however on page Z-2 you will
>see some of the comments that would lead me to make these statements.
>
>I suspect the issues come as there are at least two types of people that
>lurk here. Some want to advance the state of the art. Some want to build
>safe, cheap, reliable airplanes. Both are just as important, but sometimes
>there is going to be a difference in opinion.
If we were good economists and had real numbers by
which one could compare all the options, I suspect that
the value judgements would be much easier to make.
Opinions would become clearer as to value to any
particular task. The whole fuse-block concept was
driven by the obvious savings of both $time$ and
panel space. The hurdles to jump were based on opinions
that there was value in pushing and pulling on breakers
while trying to extricate one's bod and machine from
a stressful situation. This is where the economics of
skills and ability to make troubleshooting decisions
with one half of the brain while continuing to be
a good pilot with the other drove the architecture.
It seems better to design so that you DON'T CARE
if a particular component has just crapped than
to stack plan-b on top of plan-c but only if plan-k
is in effect and oh yeah, keep the airplane pointed
in the right direction while doing this mental
exercise.
With respect to cost-benefit analysis, I've often
made the case that (1) if you believe the technical
features of the B&C products worthy of desire then
you'll spend more $time$ achieving them on your own
than by simply purchasing them ready to install.
And (2) if you believe there is value in considering
the service history on B&C belt driven alternators
(less than 1% return for any reason on the whole fleet
of alternators produced over the last 15+ years) then
perhaps the make/buy/substitute decision is easier
yet.
We KNOW that alternators are the most highly stressed
part in the electrical system and that they figure
prominently in many dark-n-stormy-night stories.
So, I'll simply suggest that you can't have your
cake and eat it too. If the dark-n-stormy-night
stories accomplish the author's goal of scaring
you into preventative actions, then what actions
are appropriate? Best stuff with proven track records
or slightly better stuff scarfed off a junk yard
car and pushed through somebody's overhaul shop?
Well, it DEPENDS on your levels of skill and how
to intend to use the airplane. We all have those
very personal decisions to make and risks to assume.
Yes, it's HARD . . . and this is what makes it
largely impossible to do turn-key designs for
every contingency. There are turn-key designs out
there and thousands of airplanes flying them.
When I set out to do the 'Connection, it was not
to compete with Tony B or Van's idea of what it
takes to make an airplane function. I wanted to
open ALL the doors we could find and attempt
to explain the physics of what goes on for each
of those discoveries. Only then could we propose
to go beyond what the turn-key or spam-can systems
have offered for decades. I apologize if anyone
believes I've mis-represented the 'Connection but
it does say right on the cover, that we're going
to DESIGN a system . . . not sell you a cookie-
cutter approach. If that's what anyone needs, please
do take advantage of the EXP-Bus, Van's kits,
and/or Tony B's books.
I wouldn't propose to push anyone . . . but I think
the numbers for performance history combined with
arguments for failure tolerant design and operation
are pretty clear. Further, they go a long way toward
making sure you will not be sharing your own
dark-n-stormy-night story with any of us soon.
However, if your project is going to fly day-vfr only
and you don't mind tinkering with stuff to keep
it working, perhaps the approaches offered by the
'Connection are not for you. We've always had
a satisfaction guaranteed policy. One can return
their book for a refund. I did get one back a few
years ago . . . it took quite some time to
decide that the 'Connection what not for him.
The book was dog eared and coffee stained. But
he got his money back anyhow.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Alternator light misteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hans Teijgeler" <hans@jodel.com>
> >
> >Can someone elaborate on what the true function of this light really is?
> >What is it telling me? What if the light bulb breaks, will that affect
> >alternator operation? Could I wire in a diode-resistor combo, or does it
> >need to be a light bulb? Do I really need this light, or would a negative
> >amps alarm on my ammeter(s) make more sense?
>
> It's an alternator fail light which MAY or MAY not tell all the
> tales of altenrator failure. I've never bothered to hook one up
> going instead with active notification of low voltage such as
> described both in a DIY project or off-the-shelf product.
>
> The question I have is why not figure Z-13 with a second battery
> added. Run engine dependent stuff from independent battery busses
> and simply run two battery contactors. Close only one contactor
> for starting. I have a number of builders with this configuration
> and as far as I know, it has proven satisfactory and doesn't need
> power diodes. Further, the low voltage warning drives from the
> main bus as depicted in the diagram.
>
> With respect to your last question, waaaayyyyy back when, some
> alternator designs required this lamp for the alternator to
> come on line. I don't think this is true any more . . . so if
> it were my airplane, I'd just eliminate it and ignore the unused
> terminal on the alternator.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Thanks Bob, just what the doctor ordered.
In fact, what I am doing is exactly like Z-13 with a second battery added.
Since the only thing that I *need* electricity for is the engine, I chose
not to use a second battery contactor to tie the whole lot together, but
rather to keep the second battery separated from the main system, feeding
only its own engine bus. If the main electrical system fails, including the
alternator, then I don't want to switch on anything but the engine anyway.
Benefits:
* I just saved 1.5 lbs of weight of the two high current relays (For the
main power bus I now use a 30 amp automotive relay which weighs next to
nothing, the starter is directly connected to the battery)
* Less complexity. The backup battery feeds the backup engine systems plus
the starter. Nothing more, and thus hopefully more Murphy-proof than a setup
where I could tie the whole lot together.
Downsides:
* Starting only from one battery
One question: you mention that in the setup that you describe, there are no
power diodes. How do you keep the backup battery topped up then? Or is the
idea to run both battery contactors engaged at the same time? In that case I
guess that once you notice that you are draining the batteries, you'd have
low voltage on both of them and thus reduced range, when compared to
starting with at least one topped off battery?
Thanks!
Hans
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Stereo vs. Mono Headphone Jacks |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Charles Heathco" <cheathco@comcast.net>
In Kingslys case and in most others why not just connect the music source directly
into the aux input supplied with the Icom? Charlie heathco
Message 4
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| Subject: | E-Mag/P-Mag electrical info |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" <glastar@gmx.net>
For all interested in this kind of magnetos, I did ask them to supply some
numbers:
-----------------------insert Tom Carlson ----------------------------
Operating input voltage is nominally 5 to 18 volts. The coil charge time is
automatically adjusted by the computer to maintain a constant spark power
over the range of 8 to 18 volts.
Because of the power storage capability the input current can be as little
as .2 amp for a useful spark output during startup. Note however that the
start mode uses multi-spark firing during start mode witch will use about .5
amp during startup (up to about 300rpm).
The P-Mag uses external power (like the E-Mag) for starting. It's power
draw from the aircraft buss drops off quickly with rpm so above about 1600
rpm it is drawing no power from the aircraft buss. Without external power
(aircraft electrical failure) it will operate self powered well under
1000rpm.
Regards,
Tom Carlson
E-Mag
-----------------------insert Tom Carlson ----------------------------
might give some insights
Werner
Message 5
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
A while back on this list there was discussion about whether or not
internally regulated alternators would continue to function if the "field"
input was turned off. Apparently many alternators will continue to function
after the "bootstrap" even if the control power is turned off. I have the
40 amp internally regulated Nippondenso, supplied on my Aerosport engine,
but believed to be from Niagara Air Parts. I recently confirmed that when
the input circuit is shut off, the alternator indeed shuts down.
So, there are different animals out there.
Alex Peterson
RV6-A 571 hours
Maple Grove, MN
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
<http://www.home.earthlink.net/>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Com antenna relay?? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
If one is going to have two radios then it might be considered an
advantage to have two antennas so that one antenna or antenna wiring
problem can't fail both radios.
Ken
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <bob.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>
>
>
>>Comments/Questions: I am installing a second com radio in my homebuilt
>>airplane. I want to use an RF coaxial relay to be able to switch between
>>two radios and one com antenna. I have an audio panel and can use an aux
>>contact on the com selector switch to change the relay position. Are they
>>any caveats to doing this? I usually see two antennas on aircraft--one
>>for each radio.
>>
>>
>
> Yup, that's so that you can listen on both radios at the
> same time. If you use the relay and one antenna, only one radio
> works at a time in BOTH transmit and receive modes.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator light misteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Hans
1. If the alternator quits your low voltage warning will instantly
notify you and both batteries will still be fully charged when you make
your decision as to what to do/where to go. One could also argue that
parallel batteries (no charging diode voltage drop) helps insure fully
charged batteries.
2. Make sure you really have a relay capable of supplying 30 amps. Many
of those relays are rated 30 or 40 amps but as has been discussed may
not be particularly reliable for more than about 20 amps with push on
connectors. Therefore I used a contactor for that application. A
possible additional benefit of the contactor is that I also routed
starter current through it which allows me to kill power to the starter
in the event that the starter should stick on.
Ken
>Thanks Bob, just what the doctor ordered.
>
>In fact, what I am doing is exactly like Z-13 with a second battery added.
>Since the only thing that I *need* electricity for is the engine, I chose
>not to use a second battery contactor to tie the whole lot together, but
>rather to keep the second battery separated from the main system, feeding
>only its own engine bus. If the main electrical system fails, including the
>alternator, then I don't want to switch on anything but the engine anyway.
>
>Benefits:
>* I just saved 1.5 lbs of weight of the two high current relays (For the
>main power bus I now use a 30 amp automotive relay which weighs next to
>nothing, the starter is directly connected to the battery)
>
>* Less complexity. The backup battery feeds the backup engine systems plus
>the starter. Nothing more, and thus hopefully more Murphy-proof than a setup
>where I could tie the whole lot together.
>
>
>Downsides:
>* Starting only from one battery
>
>
>One question: you mention that in the setup that you describe, there are no
>power diodes. How do you keep the backup battery topped up then? Or is the
>idea to run both battery contactors engaged at the same time? In that case I
>guess that once you notice that you are draining the batteries, you'd have
>low voltage on both of them and thus reduced range, when compared to
>starting with at least one topped off battery?
>
>Thanks!
>
>Hans
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Alternators |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" <europa@triton.net>
Bob,
I don't plan to run both but it could happen. I'm running the L60 directly
off the crankshaft thru a flex coupling. There isn't room for a belt driven
alternator under the cowl. Actually the crank driven alt makes a neat
installation and uses space not otherwise used. I think B&C is working on a
similar installation.
Jim Butcher
Message 9
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| Subject: | Ignition switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
I think I've worked myself into a little bit of a corner. I had my panel
built with two separate toggle switches for ignition and a push-button
starter switch (no key switch). I had planned to use impulse couplings on
both mags. Then at the last minute I decided to use one electronic ignition
and then save some weight by eliminating the impulse coupler on the
remaining mag. Problem is that cranking should then be done with only one
ignition switch on. Any suggestions on what to do? I have a suspicion I
need to add the impulse coupling just to avoid the situation where I forget
and crank with both ignition switches on.
Gary Casey
ES/Lycoming
Message 10
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Yes there are some of these critters out there from other sources as
well and I agree this is a desireable property. Your observations are
for normal ops with a healthy part of course.
The next question that comes to mind is whether this would still shut it
down after a regulator failure that is charging at maximum? I'm
inclined to think it might not and that independant OV protection is
still worth considering.
apologies if I'm stating the obvious
Ken
Alex Peterson wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
>
>A while back on this list there was discussion about whether or not
>internally regulated alternators would continue to function if the "field"
>input was turned off. Apparently many alternators will continue to function
>after the "bootstrap" even if the control power is turned off. I have the
>40 amp internally regulated Nippondenso, supplied on my Aerosport engine,
>but believed to be from Niagara Air Parts. I recently confirmed that when
>the input circuit is shut off, the alternator indeed shuts down.
>
>So, there are different animals out there.
>
>Alex Peterson
>RV6-A 571 hours
>Maple Grove, MN
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Alternator light misteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hans Teijgeler" <hans@jodel.com>
Good points Ken, thanks.
Okay.... I guess I am going to think this through a little more. To be
honest, I hadn't realised that the contactors are large enough to allow the
starter current to run through. This certainly helps.
Guess I need to wire in yet another toggle switch. Sigh.
Hans
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
> aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] Namens Ken
> Verzonden: woensdag 16 februari 2005 14:12
> Aan: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Onderwerp: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator light misteries
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
>
> Hans
> 1. If the alternator quits your low voltage warning will instantly
> notify you and both batteries will still be fully charged when you make
> your decision as to what to do/where to go. One could also argue that
> parallel batteries (no charging diode voltage drop) helps insure fully
> charged batteries.
> 2. Make sure you really have a relay capable of supplying 30 amps. Many
> of those relays are rated 30 or 40 amps but as has been discussed may
> not be particularly reliable for more than about 20 amps with push on
> connectors. Therefore I used a contactor for that application. A
> possible additional benefit of the contactor is that I also routed
> starter current through it which allows me to kill power to the starter
> in the event that the starter should stick on.
> Ken
>
> >Thanks Bob, just what the doctor ordered.
> >
> >In fact, what I am doing is exactly like Z-13 with a second battery
> added.
> >Since the only thing that I *need* electricity for is the engine, I chose
> >not to use a second battery contactor to tie the whole lot together, but
> >rather to keep the second battery separated from the main system, feeding
> >only its own engine bus. If the main electrical system fails, including
> the
> >alternator, then I don't want to switch on anything but the engine
> anyway.
> >
> >Benefits:
> >* I just saved 1.5 lbs of weight of the two high current relays (For the
> >main power bus I now use a 30 amp automotive relay which weighs next to
> >nothing, the starter is directly connected to the battery)
> >
> >* Less complexity. The backup battery feeds the backup engine systems
> plus
> >the starter. Nothing more, and thus hopefully more Murphy-proof than a
> setup
> >where I could tie the whole lot together.
> >
> >
> >Downsides:
> >* Starting only from one battery
> >
> >
> >One question: you mention that in the setup that you describe, there are
> no
> >power diodes. How do you keep the backup battery topped up then? Or is
> the
> >idea to run both battery contactors engaged at the same time? In that
> case I
> >guess that once you notice that you are draining the batteries, you'd
> have
> >low voltage on both of them and thus reduced range, when compared to
> >starting with at least one topped off battery?
> >
> >Thanks!
> >
> >Hans
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: LED Bias Resistors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:08:21 -0600, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<b.nuckolls@cox.net> wrote:
> Aha! . . . and entirely different application which probably
> doesn't need the parallel resistor unless you're planning on having
> one of these switches double as the low volts warning light. Figure
> about 2 volts across the lamp and assuming a 14v source, you need
> (14-2)/.02 = 600 ohms and 560 is plenty close.
Bob -
These lamps (NKK LB03KW01-5x-Jx) will be in an annunciator panel and are
lights only - not lighted switches. We will be using two of them for the
Z-14 low voltage warning lights. Based on the inputs so far, I plan to go
with a 560 ohm for the bias resistor and will install a 560 as a bypass to
start with on the bench. One suggestion is to try the bypass as a pot and
work down until one sees the leakage current activating the lamp. Measure
the resistance of the pot and install the resistor.
Thanks for the help.
John
--
Message 13
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| Subject: | Wiring Whelan Strobes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Jay Brinkmeyer
<jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com>
> Back to my original question... Am I asking for trouble by running my
> Whelan-type strobe wires through a mil spec molex connect at the wing
> root? If
> so, then what sort of connector might be used? If none, then I get to buy
> more
> wire and terminate only at the power supply... Thanks, Jay
2/16/2005
Hello Jay, Here is how I solved that problem.
1) I bought some additional connectors and pins of the type that plugs into
the Whelen power supply. They are available from Terminal Town and other
sources.
2) I ran a cut end of the Whelen provided cables in a continuous snake from
each wing tip light all the way to my single power supply in the fuselage
leaving a coil of excess cable in the fuselage near each wing root.
3) Then I installed the connectors on the cable cut end and plugged into the
power supply.
4) If I ever have to remove my one piece wing I will just unplug the two
cable connectors from the power supply, cut the connectors off the cable
ends, and pull the cables out of the fuselage.##
5) When I reinstall the wing I just go through the same process as when
originally installing the wing by snaking the cable ends dangling from the
wing root into the power supply, reinstalling the connectors, and plugging
back into the power supply.
Considering how seldom one pulls the wings off and how little effort and
cost is involved in cutting off and reinstalling the cable end connectors
this is the best solution for me. It also eliminates an additional cable
connection junction at the wing root.
OC
##PS: If one were a really fastidious and pecunious type one could not cut
off the connectors, but rather just extract the pins from the connectors for
wing removal, and then reinsert the pins upon wing reinstall.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: LED Bias Resistors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:20 AM 2/16/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder"
><jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
>On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:08:21 -0600, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
><b.nuckolls@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > Aha! . . . and entirely different application which probably
> > doesn't need the parallel resistor unless you're planning on having
> > one of these switches double as the low volts warning light. Figure
> > about 2 volts across the lamp and assuming a 14v source, you need
> > (14-2)/.02 = 600 ohms and 560 is plenty close.
>
>Bob -
>
>These lamps (NKK LB03KW01-5x-Jx) will be in an annunciator panel and are
>lights only - not lighted switches. We will be using two of them for the
>Z-14 low voltage warning lights. Based on the inputs so far, I plan to go
>with a 560 ohm for the bias resistor and will install a 560 as a bypass to
>start with on the bench. One suggestion is to try the bypass as a pot and
>work down until one sees the leakage current activating the lamp. Measure
>the resistance of the pot and install the resistor.
That will work. Of course, you'll need to have the annunciator
hooked to the output pin of the powered up LR-3 so that the
output driver is OFF but the rest of the LR-3 is active. You can
put a voltmeter across the LED and adjust the parallel resistor
such that the OFF state voltage across the LED is on the order
of 1 volt.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Ignition switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glaeser, Dennis A" <dennis.glaeser@eds.com>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey"
<glcasey@adelphia.net
<mailto:glcasey@adelphia.net?subject=Re:%20Ignition%20switches&replyto=20050
2161345.j1GDjcs16912@matronics.com> >
I think I've worked myself into a little bit of a corner. I had my
panel
built with two separate toggle switches for ignition and a
push-button
starter switch (no key switch). I had planned to use impulse
couplings on
both mags. Then at the last minute I decided to use one electronic
ignition
and then save some weight by eliminating the impulse coupler on the
remaining mag. Problem is that cranking should then be done with
only one
ignition switch on. Any suggestions on what to do? I have a
suspicion I
need to add the impulse coupling just to avoid the situation where I
forget
and crank with both ignition switches on.
Gary Casey
ES/Lycoming
Gary,
If you look at Bob's diagrams (Z11 I think), he shows how to wire the
toggle/start switches so that the starter circuit is only energized when the
switch for the mag without impulse is in the Off position.
Dennis Glaeser
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<META NAME"Generator" CONTENT"MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2657.73">
Re: Ignition switches
-- AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gary Casey glcasey@adelphia.net
I think I've worked myself into a little bit of a corner. I had my panel
built with two separate toggle switches for ignition and a push-button
starter switch (no key switch). I had planned to use impulse couplings on
both mags. Then at the last minute I decided to use one electronic ignition
and then save some weight by eliminating the impulse coupler on the
remaining mag. Problem is that cranking should then be done with only one
ignition switch on. Any suggestions on what to do? I have a suspicion I
need to add the impulse coupling just to avoid the situation where I forget
and crank with both ignition switches on.
Gary Casey
ES/Lycoming
Gary,
If you look at Bob's diagrams (Z11 I think), he shows how to wire the toggle/start
switches so that the starter circuit is only energized when the switch for
the mag without impulse is in the Off position.
Dennis Glaeser
Message 16
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 06:57 AM 2/16/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson"
><alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
>
>A while back on this list there was discussion about whether or not
>internally regulated alternators would continue to function if the "field"
>input was turned off. Apparently many alternators will continue to function
>after the "bootstrap" even if the control power is turned off. I have the
>40 amp internally regulated Nippondenso, supplied on my Aerosport engine,
>but believed to be from Niagara Air Parts. I recently confirmed that when
>the input circuit is shut off, the alternator indeed shuts down.
>
>So, there are different animals out there.
How much current flows into the control lead while the
alternator is functioning. Just because the lead has "control"
over the normally operating alternator does not answer the question
as to what happens if the integrated circuit in the alternator
goes sneakers-up. Unless the "control" lead is the POWER SORUCE
for the alternator field . . . then there's no guarantee that
this lead can be used to disable a failed alternator.
If the input current is on the order of 2-3 amps with the alternator
not running and falls as the alternator spins up, then the "control"
lead is just a signal to the regulator and is vulnerable loss
of functionality in the worst case scenario.
Bob . . .
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: LED Bias Resistors |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:36:07 -0600, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<b.nuckolls@cox.net> wrote:
> That will work. Of course, you'll need to have the annunciator
> hooked to the output pin of the powered up LR-3 so that the
> output driver is OFF but the rest of the LR-3 is active.
Bob -
I take it that the "output" pin is Pin 5 (Lamp). That pin gets its power
- thru the annunciator LED - from the same fuse as the OV sense pin - pin
3. One wire from the fuse goes directly to the LR-3, pin 3. The other wire
from that fuse goes to the annunciator, thru the LED lamp and then to the
LR-3 - Pin5. My wiring looks exactly like that in the diagram for the LED
mod that started this thread.
Thanks,
John
--
Message 18
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| Subject: | Stereo vs. Mono Headphone Jacks |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Bordelon, Greg"
<gbordelon@hess.com>
> Dennis, I am in the mist if a panel redo.....and I am going to install a
> small
> slide or toggle switch next to the headset jacks to allow me to switch
> from stereo to mono when needed. If you wire it stereo only, when you
> plug in a mono headset you'll only hear the audio in one ear. With a
> switch you could rectify that..... Greg
2/16/2005
Hello Greg and Dennis, There is a more simplistic solution than wiring in a
switch.
Just go ahead and wire for stereo headsets. Then buy a cheap, simple, stereo
to mono, inline plug adapter from Radio Shack or other source. Part number
274-1520 at $2.99 should do it.
Keep it in the airplane and if you ever need to plug in a mono headset and
want to listen with both ears just use the adapter.
OC
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Ignition switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" <pat_hatch@msn.com>
Gary,
Just wire it so that your desired ignition switch must be ON for the starter
circuit to be activated. Bob has a schematic somewhere that shows this.
Not too difficult though.
Pat Hatch
RV-6
RV-7
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Casey
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ignition switches
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
I think I've worked myself into a little bit of a corner. I had my panel
built with two separate toggle switches for ignition and a push-button
starter switch (no key switch). I had planned to use impulse couplings on
both mags. Then at the last minute I decided to use one electronic ignition
and then save some weight by eliminating the impulse coupler on the
remaining mag. Problem is that cranking should then be done with only one
ignition switch on. Any suggestions on what to do? I have a suspicion I
need to add the impulse coupling just to avoid the situation where I forget
and crank with both ignition switches on.
Gary Casey
ES/Lycoming
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dual Alternators |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dennis Golden <dgolden@golden-consulting.com>
Jim Butcher wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Butcher" <europa@triton.net>
>
>
> Bob,
>
> I don't plan to run both but it could happen. I'm running the L60 directly
> off the crankshaft thru a flex coupling. There isn't room for a belt driven
> alternator under the cowl. Actually the crank driven alt makes a neat
> installation and uses space not otherwise used. I think B&C is working on a
> similar installation.
<snip>
I'd really be interested to see a picture if you have one.
--
Dennis Golden
Golden Consulting Services, Inc.
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | wing wiring ground returns |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jay Brinkmeyer <jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com>
I'm planning to use 14v in my RV-10. Most of the electronics will include
actual ground return wires (as apposed to airframe ground). However, if I use
returns in wing wiring for landing lights, heated pitot, nav, position, etc.
that would require a lot of metal squeezing through a small conduit (3/4").
Is it standard practice to use airframe ground in the wings? If so, are there
any docs around that describe the physical "how to" so I get it right the first
time? If not, I'm good with that and will attempt to shoe horn everything in
the conduit.
One other question... Any ballpark estimates on how much of what size wire to
order up front? I can do my wing estimate pretty easily, but would like to have
enough left over to avoid becoming a repeat shipping offender.
Jay
=====
__________________________________
http://my.yahoo.com
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: E-Mag/P-Mag electrical info |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rv-9a-online <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
Werner, thanks for this. I've been trying to get this data from the
manufacturer for a while.
I have wired my system to be able to draw power from my Dynon EFIS
internal battery. This allows hand-propping or emergency power for the
E-Mag. I decided not to wire the backup power for the P-Mag in order to
reduce current drain on the backup battery.
If I need the backup power, its 'IGN switch to AUX, EFIS ON'. Since the
EFIS is usually on, this becomes a single motion in flight if needed.
I figured that if I paid for the Dynon battery, I may as well use it!
It also powers my engine monitor back-up power input. With my GPSMap
296 internal battery, a primary electrical failure will still allow me
to have primary flight instruments, engine instruments and nav (GPS)...
and ignition. A handheld Comm completes the picture for redundancy.
My design for this in on the Engine page of my schematics, available at:
http://www3.telus.net/aviation/vx.html
Thanks, Vern Little RV-9A/Aerosport Roller Cam engine/p-mag&e-mag.
Werner Schneider wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" <glastar@gmx.net>
>
>For all interested in this kind of magnetos, I did ask them to supply some
>numbers:
>
>-----------------------insert Tom Carlson ----------------------------
>Operating input voltage is nominally 5 to 18 volts. The coil charge time is
>automatically adjusted by the computer to maintain a constant spark power
>over the range of 8 to 18 volts.
>
>Because of the power storage capability the input current can be as little
>as .2 amp for a useful spark output during startup. Note however that the
>start mode uses multi-spark firing during start mode witch will use about .5
>amp during startup (up to about 300rpm).
>
>The P-Mag uses external power (like the E-Mag) for starting. It's power
>draw from the aircraft buss drops off quickly with rpm so above about 1600
>rpm it is drawing no power from the aircraft buss. Without external power
>(aircraft electrical failure) it will operate self powered well under
>1000rpm.
>
>Regards,
> Tom Carlson
> E-Mag
>-----------------------insert Tom Carlson ----------------------------
>might give some insights
>
>Werner
>
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Whelan Strobes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> ##PS: If one were a really fastidious and pecunious type one could not cut
> off the connectors, but rather just extract the pins from the connectors for
> wing removal, and then reinsert the pins upon wing reinstall.
>
Yes, this is theoretically possible, but I've never been able to
do it. I have an insertion/extraction tool that I got from
Steinair, but I've never been able to remove a pin from a molex
connector. If there is a trick, I'd love to know it!
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 Wiring
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Whelan Strobes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry McFarland" <larrymc@qconline.com>
Mickey,
The extraction tool is shaped like a shoe horn and if it's the right size,
you should be able to push it along side the pin and press the piece
that spreads and catches behind the plastic in toward pin center.
Extraction should be easy from there. It's not a trick, pretty basic.
Larry
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring Whelan Strobes
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
> <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>> ##PS: If one were a really fastidious and pecunious type one could not
>> cut
>> off the connectors, but rather just extract the pins from the connectors
>> for
>> wing removal, and then reinsert the pins upon wing reinstall.
>>
>
> Yes, this is theoretically possible, but I've never been able to
> do it. I have an insertion/extraction tool that I got from
> Steinair, but I've never been able to remove a pin from a molex
> connector. If there is a trick, I'd love to know it!
>
> Mickey
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 Wiring
>
>
>
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | wiring P-Mag ignitions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Karen and Robert Brown" <bkbrown@ashcreekwireless.com>
I'm installing dual P-Mag ignitions in my RV7A that is wired per the "Connection"...Emagair
recommends putting a 5A breaker on each ignition so when you do a
run up, you can eliminate the power feed to the ignition system to prove that
it's generating it's own power.
I have a few 5A switch/breakers I could install to accomplish the above.
The one place I've differed from z-11 architecture is that I've installed a L/R/Start
ignition switch.
My questions are these:
1. Can I simply wire each ignition to it's own 5A fuse on one of my busses and
use the ignition switch to eliminate battery power to each ignition during run-up
or would it be best to use switch/breakers? I can't think of a good reason
I'd want to be able to switch the ignition off in two different places...
2. If I do wire the fused P-Mags to the ignition switch, it seems like these should
be wired to the battery bus, correct?
Thanks for so much teaching! I learn so much just by my morning reading of this
groups messages.
Bob Brown
RV7A - wiring
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Whelan Strobes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Mickey -
The connectors that Whelan uses are AMP Mate 'n Lock connectors. They look
like Molex's but are not the same. However, since both types have similar
pins and locking mechanisms, removing pins from either depends on the
diameter of the pins.
You can get .09's or .06's thereabouts diameter pins. Radio Shack has a
tool for each pin size. The tool consists of a very thin-walled tube wi/
the inside diameter of that tube being very slightly larger than the pins
or sockets - .096 or .066 for sake of argument. The outside diameter is
such that you can get the pin inside and the still be able to insert the
tube in the socket well of the plug itself. There is a rod that fits into
this tube and it has a flattened top so that you can push it with your
thumb. Insert the tube into the socket well and push down until you feel a
slight click, you then push on the inner rod to force the pin out of the
socket to the rear.
I did not find a pin remover on Steinair that does this. The two that he
shows on the connector page are used to remove machined pins from other
connectors eg. AMP CPC's and DSubs. They remove the pins from the back of
the connector - not the front.
Hope this helps.
John
> Yes, this is theoretically possible, but I've never been able to do it.
> I have an insertion/extraction tool > that I got from Steinair, but I've
> never been able to remove a pin from a molex connector. If there is a >
> trick, I'd love to know it!
>
> Mickey
--
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: wing wiring ground returns |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rv-9a-online <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
Jay, it's standard practice to ground to the spar. AC 43.13 section 15
gives you the how-to for stud bonding/grounding. I drilled a hole in
the spar (!) 1" from the outboard end to accomodate a ground lug, and
ran my lighting grounds to this point. Van's OK'd this.
Inside the fuselage, I also bonded the spar into the main ground with a
12AWG wire, using a similar technique.
Vern Little
RV-9A
Jay Brinkmeyer wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jay Brinkmeyer <jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com>
>
>I'm planning to use 14v in my RV-10. Most of the electronics will include
>actual ground return wires (as apposed to airframe ground). However, if I use
>returns in wing wiring for landing lights, heated pitot, nav, position, etc.
>that would require a lot of metal squeezing through a small conduit (3/4").
>
>Is it standard practice to use airframe ground in the wings? If so, are there
>any docs around that describe the physical "how to" so I get it right the first
>time? If not, I'm good with that and will attempt to shoe horn everything in
>the conduit.
>
>One other question... Any ballpark estimates on how much of what size wire to
>order up front? I can do my wing estimate pretty easily, but would like to have
>enough left over to avoid becoming a repeat shipping offender.
>
>Jay
>
>=====
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>http://my.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: E-Mag/P-Mag electrical info |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis" <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
Are you certain that you will not put any voltage spikes into the Dynon
electronics. That could be an awfully expensive backup battery !
Leo Corbalis
----- Original Message -----
From: "rv-9a-online" <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-Mag/P-Mag electrical info
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rv-9a-online
<rv-9a-online@telus.net>
>
> Werner, thanks for this. I've been trying to get this data from the
> manufacturer for a while.
>
> I have wired my system to be able to draw power from my Dynon EFIS
> internal battery. This allows hand-propping or emergency power for the
> E-Mag. I decided not to wire the backup power for the P-Mag in order to
> reduce current drain on the backup battery.
>
> If I need the backup power, its 'IGN switch to AUX, EFIS ON'. Since the
> EFIS is usually on, this becomes a single motion in flight if needed.
>
> I figured that if I paid for the Dynon battery, I may as well use it!
> It also powers my engine monitor back-up power input. With my GPSMap
> 296 internal battery, a primary electrical failure will still allow me
> to have primary flight instruments, engine instruments and nav (GPS)...
> and ignition. A handheld Comm completes the picture for redundancy.
>
> My design for this in on the Engine page of my schematics, available at:
>
> http://www3.telus.net/aviation/vx.html
>
> Thanks, Vern Little RV-9A/Aerosport Roller Cam engine/p-mag&e-mag.
>
>
> Werner Schneider wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider"
<glastar@gmx.net>
> >
> >For all interested in this kind of magnetos, I did ask them to supply
some
> >numbers:
> >
> >-----------------------insert Tom Carlson ----------------------------
> >Operating input voltage is nominally 5 to 18 volts. The coil charge time
is
> >automatically adjusted by the computer to maintain a constant spark power
> >over the range of 8 to 18 volts.
> >
> >Because of the power storage capability the input current can be as
little
> >as .2 amp for a useful spark output during startup. Note however that
the
> >start mode uses multi-spark firing during start mode witch will use about
.5
> >amp during startup (up to about 300rpm).
> >
> >The P-Mag uses external power (like the E-Mag) for starting. It's power
> >draw from the aircraft buss drops off quickly with rpm so above about
1600
> >rpm it is drawing no power from the aircraft buss. Without external
power
> >(aircraft electrical failure) it will operate self powered well under
> >1000rpm.
> >
> >Regards,
> > Tom Carlson
> > E-Mag
> >-----------------------insert Tom Carlson ----------------------------
> >might give some insights
> >
> >Werner
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: wing wiring ground returns |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 2/16/05 10:19:07 AM Central Standard Time,
jaybrinkmeyer@yahoo.com writes:
> Is it standard practice to use airframe ground in the wings?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Absolutely, provided they aren't some version/perversion of fiberglass.....!
>
> If so, are there any docs around that describe the physical "how to" so I
> get it right the first
> time? If not, I'm good with that and will attempt to shoe horn everything in
> the conduit.
>
>>>>>>>>>>>
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/pub/pub.html#aec9
Just go ahead and getcha one, if you don't already- you will be hard pressed
to find anything better to spend the thirty $ on.
> One other question... Any ballpark estimates on how much of what size wire
> to
> order up front? I can do my wing estimate pretty easily, but would like to
> have
> enough left over to avoid becoming a repeat shipping offender.
>>>>>>
There is no way to avoid the guilt of repeat shipping- After carefully
drawing out my entire schematic and calculating all wire runs of any consequence,
I
ordered 200' of 22awg wire. Halfway through, I ordered another 100' and STILL
wound up ordering another hundred. I now have maybe 20 feet left, and that's
for a day/nite VFR -6A!
Order lots and order often- you'll be a hero when the dude in the next hangar
row over drops by to borrow 6 feet of 18 gauge!
Mark
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Whelan Strobes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: bnoon12@comcast.net
The extractor pin has two sides to it. The copper side without the split is for
inserting the pin. The other side (the silver extraction side) has a split
that will allow you to "grip" the wire but first you must push firmly past the
internal flange lock, then "grip" the wire and it should slide right out. It
does take some practice, but if there is no previous damage to the flange, it
should come right out. Good luck.
--
bnoon12@comcast.net
Tucson,AZ 85750
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
>
> > ##PS: If one were a really fastidious and pecunious type one could not cut
> > off the connectors, but rather just extract the pins from the connectors for
> > wing removal, and then reinsert the pins upon wing reinstall.
> >
>
> Yes, this is theoretically possible, but I've never been able to
> do it. I have an insertion/extraction tool that I got from
> Steinair, but I've never been able to remove a pin from a molex
> connector. If there is a trick, I'd love to know it!
>
> Mickey
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 Wiring
The extractor pin has two sides to it. The copper side without the split is for
inserting the pin. The other side(the silverextraction side)has a split that
will allow you to "grip" the wire but first you must push firmly past the internal
flange lock, then "grip" the wire and it should slide right out. It does
take some practice, but if there is no previous damage to the flange, it should
come right out. Good luck.
--
bnoon12@comcast.net
Tucson,AZ 85750
-------------- Original message --------------
-- AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <MICK-MATRONICS@RV8.CH>
##PS: If one were a really fastidious and pecunious type one could not cut
off the connectors, but rather just extract the pins from the connectors for
wing removal, and then reinsert the pins upon wing reinstall.
Yes, this is theoretically possible, but I've never been able to
do it. I have an insertion/extraction tool that I got from
Steinair, but I've never been able to remove a pin from a molex
connector. If there is a trick, I'd love to know it!
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 Wiring
Message 31
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| Subject: | Encoder Question- Dynon D10A coupled to Garmin GTX |
320A or GTX 327
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alexander, Don" <Don.Alexander@astenjohnson.com>
I have asked Garmin's tech help line if the 320A or 327 Xpdrs can accept
the encoder output from the Dynon D10A. They responded "will need a
Grey code Gilham input from an encoder in order to receive altitude for
Mode C."
Dynon doesn't want to say yes or no and leaves it up to the user to
figure it out. Their web site indicates that the older D10 sent a
parallel gray code, but the new D10A sends a ASCII serial code. This is
all Greek to me. Can anybody enlighten me?
"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king"
Don Alexander
RV-8
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring Whelan Strobes |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
That explains it - I've got the wrong tool! Thanks a lot for the help!
Mickey
John Schroeder wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
> Mickey -
>
> The connectors that Whelan uses are AMP Mate 'n Lock connectors. They look
> like Molex's but are not the same. However, since both types have similar
> pins and locking mechanisms, removing pins from either depends on the
> diameter of the pins.
>
> You can get .09's or .06's thereabouts diameter pins. Radio Shack has a
> tool for each pin size. The tool consists of a very thin-walled tube wi/
> the inside diameter of that tube being very slightly larger than the pins
> or sockets - .096 or .066 for sake of argument. The outside diameter is
> such that you can get the pin inside and the still be able to insert the
> tube in the socket well of the plug itself. There is a rod that fits into
> this tube and it has a flattened top so that you can push it with your
> thumb. Insert the tube into the socket well and push down until you feel a
> slight click, you then push on the inner rod to force the pin out of the
> socket to the rear.
>
> I did not find a pin remover on Steinair that does this. The two that he
> shows on the connector page are used to remove machined pins from other
> connectors eg. AMP CPC's and DSubs. They remove the pins from the back of
> the connector - not the front.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> John
>
>
>>Yes, this is theoretically possible, but I've never been able to do it.
>>I have an insertion/extraction tool > that I got from Steinair, but I've
>>never been able to remove a pin from a molex connector. If there is a >
>>trick, I'd love to know it!
>>
>>Mickey
>
>
>
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 Wiring
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | wiring P-Mag ignitions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
It would appear that you need both an ignition switch plus a battery power CB/switch
to test all functions. The ignition should function with EITHER battery
power OR it's internal generator so you would need the CB to test both. The ignition
switch only verifies that something is powering it, not what.
Greg
________________________________
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Karen and Robert
Brown
Subject: AeroElectric-List: wiring P-Mag ignitions
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Karen and Robert Brown" <bkbrown@ashcreekwireless.com>
I'm installing dual P-Mag ignitions in my RV7A that is wired per the "Connection"...Emagair
recommends putting a 5A breaker on each ignition so when you do a
run up, you can eliminate the power feed to the ignition system to prove that
it's generating it's own power.
I have a few 5A switch/breakers I could install to accomplish the above.
The one place I've differed from z-11 architecture is that I've installed a L/R/Start
ignition switch.
My questions are these:
1. Can I simply wire each ignition to it's own 5A fuse on one of my busses and
use the ignition switch to eliminate battery power to each ignition during run-up
or would it be best to use switch/breakers? I can't think of a good reason
I'd want to be able to switch the ignition off in two different places...
2. If I do wire the fused P-Mags to the ignition switch, it seems like these should
be wired to the battery bus, correct?
Thanks for so much teaching! I learn so much just by my morning reading of this
groups messages.
Bob Brown
RV7A - wiring
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Encoder Question- Dynon D10A coupled to Garmin |
GTX 320A or GTX 327
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rv-9a-online <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
Don, I have had no problem getting the D10A talking to my GTX 327, other
than some finger troubles with settings.
Dynon now offers a serial to grey code converter on their web site, so
that should work to talk to the GTX 320A.
Schematics for this are on my web site
http://www3.telus.net/aviation/flying/RV-9A/rv-9a.html See link at top
of the page. You'll need to download some free software for reading my
schematic. Look for the Nav page in my schematic for the electrical
connections that you need.
If you need the configurations, let me know-- I can dig them up. You'll
probably have no trouble, though.
As an aside, did you know that the Garmin GTX 327 can't talk to a Garmin
GPSMap 296? I wanted to use the auto mode C function in the 327 which
gets airspeed and position data from an external GPS... but it has to be
a GNS 430 or similar. Now what engineer at Garmin decided that?
Probably the same genius that said their rack pitch should be 6.3125",
not the 6.25" everyone else uses (including the Garmin AT products).
Garmin is slowly figuring out that experimental aircraft are a market.
They now allow Van's to sell their avionics. Maybe one day they will
improve their support as well... including on-line manuals. I have the
GTX 327 manual if you want me to send it to you.
Anyway, let me know if you need more info.
Alexander, Don wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alexander, Don" <Don.Alexander@astenjohnson.com>
>
>I have asked Garmin's tech help line if the 320A or 327 Xpdrs can accept
>the encoder output from the Dynon D10A. They responded "will need a
>Grey code Gilham input from an encoder in order to receive altitude for
>Mode C."
>
>Dynon doesn't want to say yes or no and leaves it up to the user to
>figure it out. Their web site indicates that the older D10 sent a
>parallel gray code, but the new D10A sends a ASCII serial code. This is
>all Greek to me. Can anybody enlighten me?
>
>"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king"
>
>Don Alexander
>RV-8
>
>
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: E-Mag/P-Mag electrical info |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rv-9a-online <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
No, I'm not certain, but it's a good point. It would be a bad design
that injected conducted RFI or was susceptable to it... but these are
not TSO'd devices.
At least it's not the normal mode of operation, and if I had to choose
between a functioning engine or an accurate EFIS, it's an easy choice.
Perhaps I take a spectrum analyzer and probe around my panel wiring at
some point.
Vern
Leo J. Corbalis wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Leo J. Corbalis" <leocorbalis@sbcglobal.net>
>
>Are you certain that you will not put any voltage spikes into the Dynon
>electronics. That could be an awfully expensive backup battery !
>Leo Corbalis
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "rv-9a-online" <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
>To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: E-Mag/P-Mag electrical info
>
>
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rv-9a-online
>>
>>
><rv-9a-online@telus.net>
>
>
>>Werner, thanks for this. I've been trying to get this data from the
>>manufacturer for a while.
>>
>>I have wired my system to be able to draw power from my Dynon EFIS
>>internal battery. This allows hand-propping or emergency power for the
>>E-Mag. I decided not to wire the backup power for the P-Mag in order to
>>reduce current drain on the backup battery.
>>
>>If I need the backup power, its 'IGN switch to AUX, EFIS ON'. Since the
>>EFIS is usually on, this becomes a single motion in flight if needed.
>>
>>I figured that if I paid for the Dynon battery, I may as well use it!
>>It also powers my engine monitor back-up power input. With my GPSMap
>>296 internal battery, a primary electrical failure will still allow me
>>to have primary flight instruments, engine instruments and nav (GPS)...
>>and ignition. A handheld Comm completes the picture for redundancy.
>>
>>My design for this in on the Engine page of my schematics, available at:
>>
>>http://www3.telus.net/aviation/vx.html
>>
>>Thanks, Vern Little RV-9A/Aerosport Roller Cam engine/p-mag&e-mag.
>>
>>
>>Werner Schneider wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider"
>>>
>>>
><glastar@gmx.net>
>
>
>>>For all interested in this kind of magnetos, I did ask them to supply
>>>
>>>
>some
>
>
>>>numbers:
>>>
>>>-----------------------insert Tom Carlson ----------------------------
>>>Operating input voltage is nominally 5 to 18 volts. The coil charge time
>>>
>>>
>is
>
>
>>>automatically adjusted by the computer to maintain a constant spark power
>>>over the range of 8 to 18 volts.
>>>
>>>Because of the power storage capability the input current can be as
>>>
>>>
>little
>
>
>>>as .2 amp for a useful spark output during startup. Note however that
>>>
>>>
>the
>
>
>>>start mode uses multi-spark firing during start mode witch will use about
>>>
>>>
>.5
>
>
>>>amp during startup (up to about 300rpm).
>>>
>>>The P-Mag uses external power (like the E-Mag) for starting. It's power
>>>draw from the aircraft buss drops off quickly with rpm so above about
>>>
>>>
>1600
>
>
>>>rpm it is drawing no power from the aircraft buss. Without external
>>>
>>>
>power
>
>
>>>(aircraft electrical failure) it will operate self powered well under
>>>1000rpm.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Tom Carlson
>>> E-Mag
>>>-----------------------insert Tom Carlson ----------------------------
>>>might give some insights
>>>
>>>Werner
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | wiring P-Mag ignitions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
Bob: can you ride to the rescue with a Z-diagram revision customized for the E-mag
and P-mag features (esp. one for the All-Electric on a Budget ;-)
do not archive
Message 37
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| Subject: | wiring P-Mag ignitions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: dsvs@comcast.net
This was requested several weeks ago. Bob said he would look into it. I believe
that there is enough interest that he will get to it soon. Don
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
>
> Bob: can you ride to the rescue with a Z-diagram revision customized for the
> E-mag and P-mag features (esp. one for the All-Electric on a Budget ;-)
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 38
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|
| Subject: | Re: wiring P-Mag ignitions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rv-9a-online <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
Bob (an others): To simplify access, I've put up my engine electrical
design page in .jpeg format at
http://www3.telus.net/aviation/flying/RV-9A/photos/Electrical/Electrical_photos.html
See link near the top.
This has been reviewed by EmagAir, and Bob should be pleased that it
follows most of his techniques, except I use W28 breakers rather than fuses.
One caveat, is that I haven't run the engine with this configuration
(I'm waiting on the ignitions). It was converted from a regular magneto
design, hence the keyed mag switch.
Go at it, comments welcome.
Vern Little.
SportAV8R@aol.com wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
>
>Bob: can you ride to the rescue with a Z-diagram revision customized for the E-mag
and P-mag features (esp. one for the All-Electric on a Budget ;-)
>
>do not archive
>
>
>
>
Message 39
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|
| Subject: | Stereo vs. Mono Headphone Jacks |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis Johnson" <pinetownd@volcano.net>
James, Greg, and Bob, thanks for your replies to my question about stereo vs. mono
headphone jacks! I have some more studying to do.
Dennis Johnson
Lancair Legacy
Do not archive
Message 40
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|
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> --> <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 06:57 AM 2/16/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson"
> ><alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
> >
> >A while back on this list there was discussion about whether or not
> >internally regulated alternators would continue to function if the
> >"field" input was turned off. Apparently many alternators will
> >continue to function after the "bootstrap" even if the
> control power is
> >turned off. I have the 40 amp internally regulated Nippondenso,
> >supplied on my Aerosport engine, but believed to be from Niagara Air
> >Parts. I recently confirmed that when the input circuit is
> shut off,
> >the alternator indeed shuts down.
> >
> >So, there are different animals out there.
>
> How much current flows into the control lead while the
> alternator is functioning. Just because the lead has "control"
> over the normally operating alternator does not answer the question
> as to what happens if the integrated circuit in the alternator
> goes sneakers-up. Unless the "control" lead is the POWER SORUCE
> for the alternator field . . . then there's no guarantee that
> this lead can be used to disable a failed alternator.
>
> If the input current is on the order of 2-3 amps with the
> alternator
> not running and falls as the alternator spins up, then the
> "control"
> lead is just a signal to the regulator and is vulnerable loss
> of functionality in the worst case scenario.
>
> Bob . . .
Ah, yes Bob, you probably recall our telephone discussion several years ago.
I really should rig up an ammeter in that line to answer this question once
and for all.
However, I only posted the above message because a while back several posts
indicated that shutting off the control line on a running alternator would
not kill its output, which isn't always true.
Alex Peterson
RV6-A 571 hours
Maple Grove, MN
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
Message 41
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| Subject: | Dual Alternator/Dual Battery monitoring. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ben Schneider <plumberben@yahoo.com>
Bob and gang...
I am building an RV7 with a Mazda Rotary engine that will depend on the
electrical system for operation, though I won't be crossing any big water,
I have decided to go with dual alternator and dual batteries wired nearly
verbatim Z-14. I have B&C L40 alternators, and LR3 regulators. My thought
was to put in an Electronics International digital volt/amp gauge (even
though I have dual EFIS that also monitor bus voltage) to keep an eye on
things. However I want to only put in one gauge to monitor both systems.
Can this be done with a DPST switch and two shunts? I don't see why it
wouldn't work, but I may be missing something. Thus, I am looking for some
criticism/suggestions.
BTW, Bob, I will see you at the Wicks seminar, and I am looking forward
to it.
Ben Schneider RV7R N713R
Message 42
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|
| Subject: | Re: LED Bias Resistor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<b.nuckolls@cox.net>
Dear Bob,
I think some comment on this would be appropriate:
>Further, in my experience the modern LED is VERY tolerant to over-current.
I think this statement is unjustified. The LED makers would love it, if this
were true. What damages LEDs is heat. You can increase the voltage enough
that the little chip arcs over, or increase the current enough to melt the
bond wire....but basically it is heat that determines how long the carefully
arranged atoms in the LED die can keep doing their job. So maybe an LED with
the leads left long will be okay for years but put into a circuit board with
the leads trimmed it will expire quickly. This is very different from
saying, "the modern LED is VERY tolerant to over-current."
The "modern LED" is LESS tolerant to overcurrent. In the "old" days pulsing
LEDs was common. Now you can't pulse them worth a fartleberry in your
shreddies. Damn....
>We had a bit of a kerfuffle
A flummoxation perhaps, but a kerfuffle...?
> I fabricated an experiment with a wall wart wherein I biased up several
LEDs at 5x their rated current (150 versus 30 mA). Plugged them into a
little used outlet in the garage and >left them. Several years later I took
them down when I was pulling wall socket plates off the walls to paint . . .
they never got put back. As far as I could see, all LEDs in the experiment
>were still capable of scorching the retinas off the backs of my eyeballs.
I too frequently have half a dozen "comfort level" informal experiments
around. But in this case there is just enough information to make a rube
ing-bing
a) The LEDs were probably red* and made in the last several years (let's say
the 1990's?). There are trillions of LEDs that won't last in similar
conditions.
b) ...Still capable of scorching the retinas ? The eye is a very poor
light-metering device. The LEDs might have been 10% of original
brightness...who can tell?
>Yeah, if you want the LED to run a bizillion hours, there may be value in
running at or less than specified current. If you need a bit more light,
there's little risk in overdriving the parts to get it.
Just watch the heat.
* LEDs in identical conditions seem to fad by color. This is a technical
issue due to several causes. Reds fade least followed by green, blue, and
white. Good article at:
http://www.compoundsemiconductor.net/articles/magazine/8/1/4/1#csnarendran2_01-02.jpg
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones@charter.net
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
- - Leonard Cohen
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Dual Alternator/Dual Battery monitoring. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: mkejrj@comcast.net
Ben,
We wired my aircraft per Bob's Z 14 and installed E I's Volt/Amp guage with an
E I switch which was designed to allow the pilot to select which system he wanted
to monitor.The switch was labeled " Right or Left " and I presume it was
intended for use in a dual Alternator Twin with a common bus.The guage itself
was powered by the Main Bus ; the EI switch was designed to feed the guage with
either the "Right"(Main) or"Left"(Aux) Shunt values.
After installation we set up Z 14 to energize only the Main Alternator with the
Aux Alternator and Cross Feed off. We operated the " Right/Left " switch in
each position and tested the Bus voltage of each Bus with a volt meter. It read
12 volts on the" Right " Alt and 6 volts on the" Left ". The " Left " system,
according to our logic, should have read zero volts since , again , the "Left
"or Aux Bus was off.
We contacted E I and were advised that their Gauge is designed so that it is
powered by the same Alternator Bus that the Shunts it is measuring are on. What
was occuring was that the voltage was back feeding through the EI guage from
our active Main Bus to our inactive Aux Bus.
We solved the problem by installing a 9 pole switch so that the EI guage now
has the shunts it is measuring and the power it receives from the same system.
We purchased the switch from Digikey for about $15.00. All is well.
Happy wiring,
Dick Jordan
RV 8 Finishing
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ben Schneider
>
> Bob and gang...
>
> I am building an RV7 with a Mazda Rotary engine that will depend on the
> electrical system for operation, though I won't be crossing any big water,
> I have decided to go with dual alternator and dual batteries wired nearly
> verbatim Z-14. I have B&C L40 alternators, and LR3 regulators. My thought
> was to put in an Electronics International digital volt/amp gauge (even
> though I have dual EFIS that also monitor bus voltage) to keep an eye on
> things. However I want to only put in one gauge to monitor both systems.
> Can this be done with a DPST switch and two shunts? I don't see why it
> wouldn't work, but I may be missing something. Thus, I am looking for some
> criticism/suggestions.
>
> BTW, Bob, I will see you at the Wicks seminar, and I am looking forward
> to it.
>
> Ben Schneider RV7R N713R
>
>
>
>
>
>
Ben,
We wired my aircraft per Bob's Z 14 and installed E I's Volt/Amp guage with an
E I switch which was designed to allow the pilot to select which system he wanted
to monitor.The switch was labeled " Right or Left " and I presume it was
intended for use in a dual Alternator Twin with a common bus.The guage itself
was powered by the Main Bus ; the EI switch was designed to feed the guage with
either the "Right"(Main) or"Left"(Aux) Shunt values.
After installation we set up Z 14 to energize only the Main Alternator with the
Aux Alternator and Cross Feed off. We operated the " Right/Left " switch in
each position and tested the Bus voltage of each Bus with a volt meter. It read
12 volts on the" Right " Alt and 6 volts on the" Left ". The " Left " system,
according to our logic, should have read zero volts since , again , the"Left
"or Aux Bus was off.
We contacted E I and were advised that their Gauge is designed so that it is powered
by the same Alternator Bus that the Shunts it is measuring are on. What
was occuring was that the voltage was back feeding through the EI guage from
our activeMain Bus to our inactiveAux Bus.
We solved the problem byinstalling a 9 pole switch so that the EI guage now has
the shunts it is measuring and the power it receives from the same system. We
purchased the switch from Digikey for about $15.00. All is well.
Happy wiring,
Dick Jordan
RV 8 Finishing
-------------- Original message --------------
-- AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ben Schneider <PLUMBERBEN@YAHOO.COM>
Bob and gang...
I am building an RV7 with a Mazda Rotary engine that will depend on the
electrical system for operation, though I won't be crossing any big water,
I have decided to go with dual alternator and dual batteries wired nearly
verbatim Z-14. I have BC L40 alternators, and LR3 regulators. My thought
was to put in an Electronics International digital volt/amp gauge (even
though I have dual EFIS that also monitor bus voltage) to keep an eye on
things. However I want to only put in one gauge to monitor both systems.
Can this be done with a DPST switch and two shunts? I don't see why it
wouldn't work, but I may be missing something. Thu
s, I am looking for some
criticism/suggestions.
BTW, Bob, I will see you at the Wicks seminar, and I am looking forward
to it.
Ben Schneider RV7R N713R
com/browse/aeroelectric-list
Message 44
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| Subject: | 02/07/05 A Forced Landing |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric Ruttan" <ericruttan@chartermi.net>
At http://www.sdsefi.com/rv12.htm there is a section, most of the way down,
titled
02/07/05 A Forced Landing
You all might find the read interesting, especially the lessons learned.
Eric
Message 45
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| Subject: | Ammeter/voltmeter Gauge |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dick Fisher" <sonex76@velocity.net>
Looking for a source for a reliable but inexpensive (if Possible)
ammeter/voltmeter panel mount gauge for my Jabiru 3300 engine
with a 20 amp single phase permanent magnet alternator.
I'm using a Stratomaster Ultra X that has a voltmeter indicator,
so maybe just an ammeter would be needed??
Thank You.
Dick Fisher
sonex76@velocity.net
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: 02/07/05 A Forced Landing |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Hi Eric,
Thanks for pointing out this excellent article.
Mickey
Eric Ruttan wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric Ruttan" <ericruttan@chartermi.net>
>
> At http://www.sdsefi.com/rv12.htm there is a section, most of the way down,
> titled
>
> 02/07/05 A Forced Landing
>
> You all might find the read interesting, especially the lessons learned.
>
> Eric
>
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 Wiring
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