Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:09 AM - P-Mag Electrical System (Chris Byrne)
2. 09:18 AM - Re: Slowing down the ABMM (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 10:52 AM - KLN-94 pinout (April Gilbert)
4. 12:07 PM - the ideal OV protection (maybe) (Jan de Jong)
5. 12:18 PM - LR3C question (Jan de Jong)
6. 01:41 PM - Re: the ideal OV protection (maybe) (Eric M. Jones)
7. 02:07 PM - Re: KLN-94 pinout (B Tomm)
8. 04:31 PM - Re: KLN-94 pinout (Stein Bruch)
9. 04:35 PM - Re: P-Mag Electrical System (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 04:36 PM - Re: LR3C question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 04:47 PM - Re: KLN-94 pinout (n801bh@netzero.com)
12. 07:15 PM - Re: the ideal OV protection (maybe) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 07:30 PM - Re: Noise in the headset. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 07:31 PM - Re: Voltage regulator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 07:32 PM - Re: Re: Battery Jumpers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 08:09 PM - Wholesale HID PAR-36 lights (Richard Riley)
17. 10:22 PM - King Pin crimpers (R. Craig Chipley)
Message 1
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| Subject: | P-Mag Electrical System |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Byrne" <jack.byrne@bigpond.com>
Bob.
Excuse me if this has been a thread recently, I've just rejoined after a few months
absence. It may be relevant though as I see there is a discussion on P-Mag.
Have just ordered an engine and have specified one E-Mag and one P-Mag (may change
to 2 P-Mags). The rest of the aircraft is all electric IFR.
Aircraft Cozy MIV (composite)
Given that the ignition side of things should be self sufficient in the event of
an electrical problem how should one plan the electrical system.
Two batts and one Alt?
2 Alts one Batt?
Which Z drawing? (have revision 8 and just downloaded the updates)
How big an Alt for IFR (a'pilot,gps,2 radios,nav/com,txpdr,efis and poss heated
pitot,strobes & pos lts).
Does the list have an archive?
Thanks.
Regards
Chris Byrne
Sydney
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Slowing down the ABMM |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 12:32 AM 3/13/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi Bob and all,
>
>Our Rotax 914 powered MCR 4S is wired per fig Z16 with dual battery and
>ABMM.
>To date we have logged 17 happy flight hours and we are waiting for the
>Civil Aviation Aythority to send back the registration papers.
>
>When fast idling, when the regulator is just below nominal voltage, the
>votage must be rapidly varying around 13 V, and the ABMM connects and
>disconnects the Aux Battery contactor at a very fast rate. The rattle of
>the contactor closing and opening at 4-5 Hz is a bit of a concern.
>
>Here is my question :
>How could I slow down the action of the ABMM ? Once every two seconds
>would seem far safer.
>I imagine I could try to install a capacitor between ground and the
>sense wire. Or could a device introduce some hysteresys into the ABMM
>action ?
>
>As the airplane is presently flying, I'd prefer to just add one or two
>components, rather than rewire the whole circuit.
>Any input appreciated.
The LVWarn/ABMM was never envisioned to be used in so
small a system (18A alternator) and dual batteries. However,
one suggestion is to wire per the page 7 of the instructions where the
aux battery is controlled by an S700-2-10 switch which offers
OFF (aux battery manually selected OFF), AUTO (aux battery controlled
by ABMM for automatic reversion to alternator out mode), and ON (aux
battery manually selected ON.
Placing the switch in the ON position for taxi/takeoff and approach/
land/taxi modes would prevent the phenomenon you cited while retaining
the automatic reversion mode for cruising flight ops.
Alternatively, one could eliminate the auto mode entirely and
use a manual aux battery master switch with an OFF/ON functionality.
When the low voltage light comes on, the pilot is instructed/expected
to reposition a few switches to re-configure the system for alternator-out
operations. It's not like there's a great sense of urgency for
re-configuration when the alternator fails. If the pilot delays by several
minutes in reconfiguration, the outcome of the flight is not affected.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "April Gilbert" <aprilgilbert@cox.net>
Hi,
Would anyone have a pinout for the KLN-94 GPS? I am adding a FS-450 and need to
know the RS232
input/output.
Thanks,
April Gilbert
(Yes, a girl)
Message 4
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| Subject: | the ideal OV protection (maybe) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl>
I have been thinking...
1. issue: polite disconnection with electronic latch/reset or crowbar
with CB latch/reset
- PM alternator - polite disconnection preferred?
- groundpower - polite disconnection preferred?
- alternator with field - polite disconnection ok or is there merit in
shorting the field windings as well?
2. issue: trigger voltage and trigger delay
- Bob and Eric M. both use 16.2V, but Bob mentions 5ms in the book and
Eric M. 200ms I believe on the website.
- confusing to a layman for sure
- a compromise is sought, I suppose, between allowing small temporary
voltage excursions because of bad load regulation (dead battery) and
cutting short runaway voltage excess from failed regulation
- taking into account, I suppose, the relative current capabilities of
alternator and battery.
- still confusing
3. the ideal OV protection (maybe):
- disconnects the supply politely and immediately shorts the load to ground
- without losing latch/reset and notification;
- decreases progressively the trigger delay with excess voltage , f.i.
by a decade per volt: 1s at 16V to 1ms at 19V; I can think of 3
implementations:
- 1. continuous: voltage to current exponential amplifier and
symmetrical charge-discharge of the timing capacitor (but temperature
dependence of diode junction I(V) a concern)
- 2. discrete steps: parallel comparators and symmetrical
charge-discharge of the timing capacitor
- 3. discrete steps: parallel comparators and charge-reset timing
capacitors, OR-ing of trigger results
Jan de Jong
Message 5
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl>
Bob,
Is the bus-monitoring part of LR3C (the flashing light output) a
separate function that just happens to be in the same box as regulator
and OV crowbar for convenience?
Thank you.
Jan de Jong
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: the ideal OV protection (maybe) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl>
>I have been thinking...
>1. issue: polite disconnection with electronic latch/reset or crowbar with
CB latch/reset
>- PM alternator - polite disconnection preferred?
>- groundpower - polite disconnection preferred?
>- alternator with field - polite disconnection ok or is there merit in
>shorting the field windings as well?
Jan,
The only reason to ground the field is to blow the CB. The OV usually occurs
from a malfunctioning regulator, thus shorting the F lead could have
unexpected results.
>2. issue: trigger voltage and trigger delay
>- Bob and Eric M. both use 16.2V, but Bob mentions 5ms in the book and
>Eric M. 200ms I believe on the website.
>- confusing to a layman for sure
>- a compromise is sought, I suppose, between allowing small temporary
>voltage excursions because of bad load regulation (dead battery) and
>cutting short runaway voltage excess from failed regulation
>- taking into account, I suppose, the relative current capabilities of
>alternator and battery.
>- still confusing
I use the 16.2V limit because it seems like a reasonable value...and Bob has
recommended it. The crowbar described in the Aeroelectric Connection may
trip in 5 mS but the fuse or CB certainly takes much longer. The design of
the Linear-OVM (non-crowbar) delays 200 mS so that a Load Dump Suppressor at
18V can do its business before the OV trip politely disconnects the F lead
(or opens the B-line contactor).
When you think of it--200 mS is still quite short for a system that has
other suppressors in it, and guarantees no glitches.
>3. the ideal OV protection (maybe):
>- disconnects the supply politely and immediately shorts the load to ground
As above, cutting off the line is best.
>- without losing latch/reset and notification;
>- decreases progressively the trigger delay with excess voltage , f.i.
>by a decade per volt: 1s at 16V to 1ms at 19V; I can think of 3
>implementations:
>- 1. continuous: voltage to current exponential amplifier and
>symmetrical charge-discharge of the timing capacitor (but temperature
>dependence of diode junction I(V) a concern)
>- 2. discrete steps: parallel comparators and symmetrical
>charge-discharge of the timing capacitor
>- 3. discrete steps: parallel comparators and charge-reset timing
>capacitors, OR-ing of trigger results Jan de Jong
In the Linear-OVM The chip is an LTC1696 which does decrease the trigger
delay with excessive rate of rise/time (dv/dt). Other strategies are
possible.
Thanks for the input.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones@charter.net
Message 7
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: B Tomm <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
April,
Looks like Bendex/King will not supply wiring diagrams (according to their
website). You may want to try contacting an avionics shop or
http://www.approach-systems.com/test.asp. They must know the pinouts
because they make wiring harnesses for the KLN-94.
Good luck.
PS what aircraft you working on?
Bevan
RV7A
-----Original Message-----
From: April Gilbert [SMTP:aprilgilbert@cox.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: KLN-94 pinout
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "April Gilbert"
<aprilgilbert@cox.net>
Hi,
Would anyone have a pinout for the KLN-94 GPS? I am adding a FS-450 and
need to know the RS232
input/output.
Thanks,
April Gilbert
(Yes, a girl)
Message 8
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
You're right! From my dealings with them, they seem to be working hard
lately to get themselves removed from the experimental market entirely. I
hate dealing with them, and usually won't choose to wire up any more of
their products for customers. I'm not a certified repair station so they
quickly give you/me the cold shoulder and flatly tell you to contact one of
their dealers. Garmin is much nicer about that and wonderful to deal with.
That being said, Here's the answer to your question about.
On the KLN-94, you need to use the "P891" connector, which is the DB-25
connector. The pins are as follows (for yor FS)
Pin 1) RS-232IN
Pin 2) RS-232 OUT
There are several other RS-232's, but you won't use those, I'll put them
down for reference:
Pins:
3=dataloader RS-232 IN
4=dataloader RS-232OUT
5=spare RS-232 IN
6=spare RS-232OUT
Hope this helps!
Cheers,
Stein.
P.S., did I say how much I do NOT like working with King/Bendix products or
their company anymore?!!?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of B Tomm
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: KLN-94 pinout
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: B Tomm <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
April,
Looks like Bendex/King will not supply wiring diagrams (according to their
website). You may want to try contacting an avionics shop or
http://www.approach-systems.com/test.asp. They must know the pinouts
because they make wiring harnesses for the KLN-94.
Good luck.
PS what aircraft you working on?
Bevan
RV7A
-----Original Message-----
From: April Gilbert [SMTP:aprilgilbert@cox.net]
Subject: AeroElectric-List: KLN-94 pinout
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "April Gilbert"
<aprilgilbert@cox.net>
Hi,
Would anyone have a pinout for the KLN-94 GPS? I am adding a FS-450 and
need to know the RS232
input/output.
Thanks,
April Gilbert
(Yes, a girl)
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: P-Mag Electrical System |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:07 PM 3/13/2005 +1100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris Byrne"
><jack.byrne@bigpond.com>
>
>Bob.
>
>Excuse me if this has been a thread recently, I've just rejoined after a
>few months absence. It may be relevant though as I see there is a
>discussion on P-Mag.
>
>Have just ordered an engine and have specified one E-Mag and one P-Mag
>(may change to 2 P-Mags). The rest of the aircraft is all electric IFR.
>Aircraft Cozy MIV (composite)
>Given that the ignition side of things should be self sufficient in the
>event of an electrical problem how should one plan the electrical system.
>Two batts and one Alt?
>2 Alts one Batt?
>
>Which Z drawing? (have revision 8 and just downloaded the updates)
>How big an Alt for IFR (a'pilot,gps,2 radios,nav/com,txpdr,efis and poss
>heated pitot,strobes & pos lts).
Once you've decided to go with p-mags, the rest is pretty
simple. Unless you have some unusual "sleeper" in choice
of appliances, a 40A alternator will suffice nicely. Figure
Z-13/8 would be my first suggestion. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Architecture/Zfigs_K_5.pdf
You can use either an internally regulated main alternator
as illustrated but I recommend the externally regulated alternators
as shown in other z-figures.
>Does the list have an archive?
Yes, see:
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?AeroElectric
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: LR3C question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:24 PM 3/13/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl>
>
>Bob,
>Is the bus-monitoring part of LR3C (the flashing light output) a
>separate function that just happens to be in the same box as regulator
>and OV crowbar for convenience?
>Thank you.
>Jan de Jong
Yes. It's an independent low voltage warning system.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com>
<aprilgilbert@cox.net>
Hi,
Would anyone have a pinout for the KLN-94 GPS? I am adding a FS-450 and
need to know the RS232
input/output.
Thanks,
April Gilbert
(Yes, a girl)
When I wired
my Zenith 801 I coupled my King KMD150 MFD to my FS450. Works good,,, If ya want
I can provide ya with my pin out for the 150. I bet its not too far off from
the KLN-94. Good to see woman venturing in this realm.. You go girl !!!
Ben Haas N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: the ideal OV protection (maybe) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:12 PM 3/13/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jan de Jong <jan.de.jong@xs4all.nl>
>
>I have been thinking...
>
>1. issue: polite disconnection with electronic latch/reset or crowbar
>with CB latch/reset
>- PM alternator - polite disconnection preferred?
Define polite.
>- groundpower - polite disconnection preferred?
>- alternator with field - polite disconnection ok or is there merit in
>shorting the field windings as well?
>2. issue: trigger voltage and trigger delay
>- Bob and Eric M. both use 16.2V, but Bob mentions 5ms in the book and
>Eric M. 200ms I believe on the website.
>- confusing to a layman for sure
>- a compromise is sought, I suppose, between allowing small temporary
>voltage excursions because of bad load regulation (dead battery) and
>cutting short runaway voltage excess from failed regulation
>- taking into account, I suppose, the relative current capabilities of
>alternator and battery.
>- still confusing
Overvoltage protection is indicated for a VERY impolite condition
that while rare, promises to create some combination of
expensive, smelly, and tense situations in the airplane. I am
mystified by the concerns for being "polite".
Should someone invade my home and brandish a 45 should I
do the polite thing and go after him with a broom . . . or
would a 12-gage be more in keeping with my mission to bring
the situation to a speedy resolution and decidedly in
my favor?
3. the ideal OV protection (maybe):
>- disconnects the supply politely and immediately shorts the load to ground
>- without losing latch/reset and notification;
>- decreases progressively the trigger delay with excess voltage , f.i.
>by a decade per volt: 1s at 16V to 1ms at 19V; I can think of 3
>implementations:
>- 1. continuous: voltage to current exponential amplifier and
>symmetrical charge-discharge of the timing capacitor (but temperature
>dependence of diode junction I(V) a concern)
>- 2. discrete steps: parallel comparators and symmetrical
>charge-discharge of the timing capacitor
>- 3. discrete steps: parallel comparators and charge-reset timing
>capacitors, OR-ing of trigger results
You're making a mountain out of a mole hill. I've been designing
over-voltage protection for aviation customers for about 30 years.
In fact, my very first design job for Electro-Mech back in '75
was to replace the RBM Controls 138-1 electro mechancial ov
protection relay with a smaller, more reliable device
with assembly friendly characteristics. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/RBM138-1_A.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/RBM138-1_B.jpg
The 14v version of this product was fairly reliable but
the 28v version had a habit of burning the field relay
contacts and going open circuit.
The replacement we crafted was 1/10th the weight and
volume. Very easy to build. It used solid state voltage
sensing and relay latching circuits and had only one
power relay. We also had to learn how to make the fire
go out between contacts that were trying to open up and
break the field circuit. Better yet, it sold to our
customer (Cessna Twins) for less than they were paying
for the RMB Controls device.
A number of iterations of the ov relay have been
produced over the years. Each step worked toward
reducing cost to manufacture, increasing reliability,
increased ruggedness and if possible, getting the
size down.
Now, relays that open the field circuit are rather
"polite" . . . but to the detriment of their own ability
to withstand 50 ov trips in a row and still be functioning
to specification on the 51st trip (common qualification
test popular with local industry).
After 15 years and dozens of evolutionary steps the
components to totally eliminate relays became
available and several iterations of the crowbar
system were produced with the best-we-knew how to
do for reduction of parts count, reduction in volume and
stability of performance came into being with . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/OVM_14_Prototype.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/OVM-14_C.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/OVM-14_A.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/OVM-14_B.jpg
One of the reasons this critter got so small is because
it sidesteps the issue of what to do with stored energy
on the field by shunting it to ground instead of
trying to keep it from setting the relay on fire. Some
rather bulky arc-suppression components went away.
There's been a bit of marketing hype, a sprinkle of
mis-statements about performance and a lot of worry
about the peak currents involved when this very impolite
device goes after the "invader wielding a 45" . . .
If one operates the gear on a Lancair, Glasair or
Beech Sierra, guess what? Every time you hit the gear
switch the system sees a peak load 3x greater and 4-5
times longer than a crowbar ov trip and it happens
twice per flight cycle. On the Sierra, system leaks
are usually bad enough to cause the gear pump to
cycle for short intervals several times per flight.
When you hit the starter button, inrush currents are
larger and longer yet. This is also a most "impolite"
event that happens every flight. These events are far
more dramatic electrically and yet they're no big
deal. None-the-less OV events (that may never happen over
the lifetime of most airplanes) get worried about
should they task a measly 5 amp breaker with doing
exactly what it was designed to do . . . clear a
fault. Oh, by the way, that fault begins an alternator
shutdown process as soon as the SCR fires . . . it's
essentially under control even BEFORE the breaker opens!
I have no problem with folks who wish to offer
competing products and alternative ideas . . . to
each his own when bestowing the crown of elegance
upon a solution. However, I will insist that we keep
our science and facts straight. To do less
causes folks on the List to spend no-value-added
time and effort worrying over will-o'-the-wisps
(or "ignis fatuus" . . . I really like that one!)
instead of advancing the state of their projects.
The OVM series crowbar modules have only 6 components.
(It was 5 components while we were hand-selecting
fixed calibration resistors). I'll be delighted to
purchase a 5th of any designer's favorite beverage
if they can put as much or more functionality into
a more compact and/or lower parts count package.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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| Subject: | Noise in the headset. |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:34 PM 3/11/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Sampson"
><SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
>
>Bob - I am getting messages that that file is corrupt, but I assume its the
>filters that you have mentioned in your book. Since buying stuff from Radio
>Shack is really hard here in the UK, any chance you could recceomend
>standard parts that I can get at say Radio Spares or Farnell?
See:
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=248320&N=401
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=3198455&N=401
Wire as an "L" filter. Put inductor in series with power supply(=)
. . . capacitor from bus-end of inductor to power supply(-). It would
probably be best to install this right at the power supply.
Bob . . .
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Voltage regulator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:02 PM 3/11/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "paul atkinson"
><paul@theatkinsons.demon.co.uk>
>
>Hello all
>
>
>I have just taken delivery of a Rotax 912s and am rejigging my electrical
>system to suit. I currently have a B&C LR3 voltage regulator, which I
>assume is now redundant as the Rotax has its own rectifier/regulator, but
>I would like to retain the crowbar over voltage regulation that the LR3
>provides. If I were to leave the LR3 in the system will it interfere in
>any way with the regulator on the engine, or would I be better off
>starting again and following Bob's scheme on Z-16.
The LR3 is not useable with a permanent magnet alternator. Z-16
or some variant is indicated.
Bob . . .
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Battery Jumpers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:45 PM 3/10/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sarg314 <sarg314@comcast.net>
>
>
> >>Bob:
> >> You have convinced me to use welding cable from the firewall to the
> >>engine. The vibration there would be hard on a stiff cable. But
> >>shouldn't the connection from the battery to the contactor should have
> >>orders of magnitude less vibration (both are on the cabin side of the
> >>firewall in my plane)?
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Perhaps . . . but we're still speaking in non-quantitative
> > terms. I have no way to put my hands on and/or instrument
> > every variation on a theme. Therefore, I must err on the side of
> > always applying the best I know how to do. If the battery has
> > brass, female threaded bosses for terminal connections, it's
> > not much of an issue . . . but the notion of attaching anything
> > but the softest, most compliant wires I can find to lead battery
> > terminals opens questions for which there are no 'hard'
> > answers without turning it into a science project.
> >
> >
>I didn't realize we were talking about soft lead terminals. My battery
>is an RG with brass terminals.
Very good. This moves the risk from battery post over to
wire terminal. On the larger wires, the terminal is more likely
to break than the wire itself.
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | Wholesale HID PAR-36 lights |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Riley <Richard@Riley.net>
I can get HID Par 36 lights wholesale, if I order a batch of them. $350
with shipping by ground. Pre-made cable, complete with the latest
generation ballast. I have several people from the Velocity mailing list
interested, so I'm going to put an order together. Anyone here want one?
Message 17
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| Subject: | King Pin crimpers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "R. Craig Chipley" <mechtech81@yahoo.com>
Looking for a decent priced crimper for the open end
pins like the ones on the KA-134 audio panel. Thanks,
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