Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:40 AM - EGT interference (drshufly@aol.com)
2. 07:40 AM - Diodes for Master and Strater relays (Joe & Jan Connell)
3. 07:43 AM - Re: Re: led dimmer question (D Wysong)
4. 08:08 AM - Re: led dimmer question (Eric M. Jones)
5. 01:35 PM - Re: Diodes across relay coils (Eric M. Jones)
6. 02:43 PM - Re: Re: Diodes across relay coils (Matt Prather)
7. 03:00 PM - Re: Diodes across relay coils (rd2@evenlink.com)
8. 03:11 PM - Re: Re: Diodes across relay coils (Richard Tasker)
9. 03:12 PM - Re: Re: Diodes across relay coils (paul wilson)
10. 04:00 PM - Re: Re: Diodes across relay coils (Richard Tasker)
11. 04:31 PM - Re: Re: Diodes across relay coils (paul wilson)
12. 04:31 PM - Re: Diodes across relay coils (Eric M. Jones)
Message 1
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| Subject: | EGT interference |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: drshufly@aol.com
My Glasair EGT/CHT readings (as read on my RMI Micromonitor) are steady until I
energize the Whelan strobe system and then they jump around several hundred degrees.
I'm wondering if a Radio Shack noise filter on the strobe power supply
might correct this situation. Closest point of approach for any mutual wire
is twelve inches; strobes are the instigator; EGT/CHT is the victim so I wonder
if a filter would do any good. Could the problem be simply RFI coming from
the strobes? Would appreciate comments.
Bob Shumaker in Virginia
Glasair IIS-RG with 600 safe hours
Message 2
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| Subject: | Diodes for Master and Strater relays |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Joe & Jan Connell" <jconnell@rconnect.com>
Hi Guys,
I've been searching the AeroElectric-List and the RV-list to
get information on which diode to use across these relays.
Can you provide me a diode part number and ratings? I'd
rather not buy the prepackaged solution from Van's...
Thanks.
Joe Connell
Stewartville, MN
RV-9A N95JJ wiring
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: led dimmer question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: D Wysong <hdwysong@gmail.com>
Hello Skip -
> That is, the 12v+ from the gps box would go to the led, the negative leg of
> the various leds would be connected in common to the input of the LM 137, and
> the output of the LM 137 would be grounded. Sort of a LM 317 setup but on
> the "downside" leg of the leds.
The LM137 expects a negative voltage differential between the Vin and
ground. Maybe if you attach the LED to the -Vout terminal, your
ground to the -Vin terminal, and a positive supply voltage to the
Ground terminal it'll work. Seems upside down and backwards... but
samples are cheap! Give it a try! :-)
There's an application circuit in the LM117/LM317 datasheet for
"Digitally Selected Outputs" that will work with a few mod's (more
parts!). If you put your LEDs inline with those transistors and move
the entire transistor bank from the Adj rail to the Vout rail, you can
attach your annunciator outputs to the transistor Inputs and drive
your parallel-dimmed LEDs that way.
D
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: led dimmer question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: CardinalNSB@aol.com
>I have been playing with the LM 317 adjustable voltage regulator
> 12 volt positive input to the LM 317
>led positive lead(s) all connected to the output of the LM 317
>common ground for led leads to battery negative
>The brightness of the light is based on the (adjusted) voltage, whether 1
or
>more leds are connected. So, this will dim leds, brightness is stable,
>whether 1 or more leds are in the system.
>However, my Garmin 300xl outputs 12 volt + per annnciator light so the LM
>317 isn't appropriate. I would need a separate LM 317 for each light
circuit
>and a way to control each LM 317 at the same time.
>Is there a similar product that the common ground from the leds would be
the
>input and the chassis ground would be the output that would maintain the
>reduced voltage? Is this what the LM 137 does?
>That is, the 12v+ from the gps box would go to the led, the negative leg of
>the various leds would be connected in common to the input of the LM 137,
and
>the output of the LM 137 would be grounded. Sort of a LM 317 setup but on
>the "downside" leg of the leds. Thanks for the help. Skip Simpson.
Skip,
It certainly seems reasonable to use a negative regulator in this
application. After all the electrons don't know the difference. But when you
look at the "negative" LM317, the LM137 you find that all is not so simple.
Whereas the LM317 has a positive voltage in and a regulated positive voltage
out, the LM137 would have a ground in and a "regulated" ground out. a
regulated ground is still zero.
Negative voltages are arranged at the power source by grounding the positive
lead of one battery to the negative lead of the other. Then one battery
provides positive, the connection between the batteries is "ground" and the
second battery negative ground terminal becomes "negative". Negative
voltages can also be had by a little IC power supply.
You don't need to consider them--or the negative voltage regulator. Assuming
the Garmin output can't be dimmed (and I'd surely check into this with
Garmin!) then consider controlling the current through the LEDs by using an
NPN transistor with a grounded emitter. Consider using a National
Semiconductor LM395 (can't break it). Group all your LED cathode grounds
together and change the current through the base. Lot's of help online for
the circuit.
Don't be afraid.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones@charter.net
"Then I got married. I thought...well,
I figured that...ahhh. Hell, I don't know WHAT
I was thinking...."
--My friend Victor
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Diodes across relay coils |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" <paulm@olypen.com>
>For decades 99.999% of the engineering world recommended and used the
common rectifier diode across inductors like relay coils to suppress the
inductive spike that happens hen the power to the inductor is interrupted.
Hey, my dad taught me this technique....And he claimed never to be wrong.
Usually.
>I have removed all the simple diodes across relays and replaced them with
by directional transorbs and also supplied parts to the local builders as
well.
>Paul
This posting was really significant but has not been much commented on.
Basically, ALL the suppressor diodes on all coils and relays and contactors
should be changed to bi-directional transorbs or similar. Okay don't panic,
but put it on your list. If you are having problems (sticking contactors?,
better upgrade now). This is a significant change we can all blame Paul
Messinger for.
Read these links-- Yikes....
http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/application.asp
http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/kilovac/appnotes/transients.stm
And of course, these are available from me.
http://www.periheliondesign.com/suppressors/SnapJack.pdf Website hasn't
been updated yet.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones@charter.net
"...as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We
also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some
things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we
don't know we don't know." D. Rumsfeld
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Diodes across relay coils |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
Reading both of these messages, it might sound like using a flyback
diode is worse than nothing. Is that the point? Or is it that flyback
diodes
only fix one kind of problem (arcing from the collapsing field caused by
the high dI/dt), but might make a different one worse (somewhat increase
contact bounce by slowing/reversing armature motion)?
Does anyone have data to quantify how much longer the contacts will live
with no protection, vs. diode protection, vs. transorbs? That would be
useful.
Regards,
Matt-
VE N34RD, C150 N714BK
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones"
> <emjones@charter.net>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger"
> <paulm@olypen.com>
>
>>For decades 99.999% of the engineering world recommended and used the
> common rectifier diode across inductors like relay coils to suppress the
> inductive spike that happens hen the power to the inductor is
> interrupted.
>
> Hey, my dad taught me this technique....And he claimed never to be
> wrong. Usually.
>
>>I have removed all the simple diodes across relays and replaced them
>> with
> by directional transorbs and also supplied parts to the local builders
> as well.
>>Paul
>
> This posting was really significant but has not been much commented on.
> Basically, ALL the suppressor diodes on all coils and relays and
> contactors should be changed to bi-directional transorbs or similar.
> Okay don't panic, but put it on your list. If you are having problems
> (sticking contactors?, better upgrade now). This is a significant change
> we can all blame Paul Messinger for.
>
> Read these links-- Yikes....
>
> http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/application.asp
>
> http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/kilovac/appnotes/transients.stm
>
> And of course, these are available from me.
>
> http://www.periheliondesign.com/suppressors/SnapJack.pdf Website
> hasn't been updated yet.
>
> Regards,
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge MA 01550-2705
> Phone (508) 764-2072
> Email: emjones@charter.net
>
> "...as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we
> know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know
> there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown
> unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know." D. Rumsfeld
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Diodes across relay coils |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com
Eric, thanks for not letting this escape and sink in mailbaskets, be
forgotten, deleted whatever.
Paul, thanks.
I am no engineer but have learned a lot through my hobby, and this list,
and Bob et all. The by-directional transorbs had caught my attention but
the subject had started to fade in the daily streams of incoming info. This
brought it back. Thank you list.
Rumen
_____________________Original message __________________________
(received from Eric M. Jones; Date: 04:15 PM 3/24/2005
-0500)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" <paulm@olypen.com>
>For decades 99.999% of the engineering world recommended and used the
common rectifier diode across inductors like relay coils to suppress the
inductive spike that happens hen the power to the inductor is interrupted.
Hey, my dad taught me this technique....And he claimed never to be wrong.
Usually.
>I have removed all the simple diodes across relays and replaced them with
by directional transorbs and also supplied parts to the local builders as
well.
>Paul
This posting was really significant but has not been much commented on.
Basically, ALL the suppressor diodes on all coils and relays and contactors
should be changed to bi-directional transorbs or similar. Okay don't panic,
but put it on your list. If you are having problems (sticking contactors?,
better upgrade now). This is a significant change we can all blame Paul
Messinger for.
Read these links-- Yikes....
http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/application.asp
http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/kilovac/appnotes/transients.stm
And of course, these are available from me.
http://www.periheliondesign.com/suppressors/SnapJack.pdf Website hasn't
been updated yet.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones@charter.net
"...as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We
also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some
things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we
don't know we don't know." D. Rumsfeld
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Diodes across relay coils |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
Diodes are much better than nothing, but they fix one problem and make
another worse. Depending on your whole system one or the other could be
worse. Are large negative voltage spikes every time you shut the relay
off worse than the possibility of the relay welding on at some time? I
suspect that, for most of us, the slight potential of welded contacts
are better than spikes.
With the transorbs you sort of have the best of both worlds - you limit
the spike to something more reasonable (whatever the voltage rating of
the transorb is) and you minimize the likelihood of welded contacts due
to the much faster turnoff time.
Unfortunately, it is impossible to meaningfully quantify the difference
in contact life without knowing a whole lot about your specific application.
Dick Tasker
Matt Prather wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
>
>Reading both of these messages, it might sound like using a flyback
>diode is worse than nothing. Is that the point? Or is it that flyback
>diodes
>only fix one kind of problem (arcing from the collapsing field caused by
>the high dI/dt), but might make a different one worse (somewhat increase
>contact bounce by slowing/reversing armature motion)?
>
>Does anyone have data to quantify how much longer the contacts will live
>with no protection, vs. diode protection, vs. transorbs? That would be
>useful.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Matt-
>VE N34RD, C150 N714BK
>
>
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones"
>><emjones@charter.net>
>>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger"
>><paulm@olypen.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>>For decades 99.999% of the engineering world recommended and used the
>>>
>>>
>>common rectifier diode across inductors like relay coils to suppress the
>>inductive spike that happens hen the power to the inductor is
>>interrupted.
>>
>>Hey, my dad taught me this technique....And he claimed never to be
>>wrong. Usually.
>>
>>
>>
>>>I have removed all the simple diodes across relays and replaced them
>>>with
>>>
>>>
>>by directional transorbs and also supplied parts to the local builders
>>as well.
>>
>>
>>>Paul
>>>
>>>
>>This posting was really significant but has not been much commented on.
>>Basically, ALL the suppressor diodes on all coils and relays and
>>contactors should be changed to bi-directional transorbs or similar.
>>Okay don't panic, but put it on your list. If you are having problems
>>(sticking contactors?, better upgrade now). This is a significant change
>>we can all blame Paul Messinger for.
>>
>>Read these links-- Yikes....
>>
>>http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/application.asp
>>
>>http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/kilovac/appnotes/transients.stm
>>
>>And of course, these are available from me.
>>
>>http://www.periheliondesign.com/suppressors/SnapJack.pdf Website
>>hasn't been updated yet.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Eric M. Jones
>>www.PerihelionDesign.com
>>113 Brentwood Drive
>>Southbridge MA 01550-2705
>>Phone (508) 764-2072
>>Email: emjones@charter.net
>>
>>"...as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we
>>know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know
>>there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown
>>unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know." D. Rumsfeld
>>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Diodes across relay coils |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: paul wilson <pwilson@climber.org>
Eric,
Paul said "directional transorbs"
You said "bi-directional transorbs or similar"
Typo? Or do I need help to understand?
Thanks, Paul
======================
At 04:15 PM 3/24/05 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" <paulm@olypen.com>
>
> >For decades 99.999% of the engineering world recommended and used the
>common rectifier diode across inductors like relay coils to suppress the
>inductive spike that happens hen the power to the inductor is interrupted.
>
>Hey, my dad taught me this technique....And he claimed never to be wrong.
>Usually.
>
> >I have removed all the simple diodes across relays and replaced them with
>by directional transorbs and also supplied parts to the local builders as
>well.
> >Paul
>
>This posting was really significant but has not been much commented on.
>Basically, ALL the suppressor diodes on all coils and relays and contactors
>should be changed to bi-directional transorbs or similar. Okay don't panic,
>but put it on your list. If you are having problems (sticking contactors?,
>better upgrade now). This is a significant change we can all blame Paul
>Messinger for.
>
>Read these links-- Yikes....
>
>http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/application.asp
>
>http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/kilovac/appnotes/transients.stm
>
>And of course, these are available from me.
>
>http://www.periheliondesign.com/suppressors/SnapJack.pdf Website hasn't
>been updated yet.
>
>Regards,
>Eric M. Jones
>www.PerihelionDesign.com
>113 Brentwood Drive
>Southbridge MA 01550-2705
>Phone (508) 764-2072
>Email: emjones@charter.net
>
>"...as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know.
>We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are
>some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones
>we don't know we don't know." D. Rumsfeld
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Diodes across relay coils |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
Actually Paul did say bidirectional transorb. He also mentioned if you
use a uni-directional transorb you must also use a series diode with it.
A bi-directional transorb must have a sufficiently high breakdown
voltage so it never turns on with normal battery/alternator voltage
present - i.e. use one with at least a 16V breakdown.
As an exercise for the student, you can "tune" the response by using a
lower voltage transorb with a series diode to get whatever voltage spike
you are comfortable with. I.e., trade off turn-off time with voltage
spike magnitude. :-) Or not...
Dick Tasker
paul wilson wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: paul wilson <pwilson@climber.org>
>
>Eric,
> Paul said "directional transorbs"
> You said "bi-directional transorbs or similar"
> Typo? Or do I need help to understand?
>Thanks, Paul
>======================
>
>At 04:15 PM 3/24/05 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
>>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger" <paulm@olypen.com>
>>
>>
>>
>>>For decades 99.999% of the engineering world recommended and used the
>>>
>>>
>>common rectifier diode across inductors like relay coils to suppress the
>>inductive spike that happens hen the power to the inductor is interrupted.
>>
>>Hey, my dad taught me this technique....And he claimed never to be wrong.
>>Usually.
>>
>>
>>
>>>I have removed all the simple diodes across relays and replaced them with
>>>
>>>
>>by directional transorbs and also supplied parts to the local builders as
>>well.
>>
>>
>>>Paul
>>>
>>>
>>This posting was really significant but has not been much commented on.
>>Basically, ALL the suppressor diodes on all coils and relays and contactors
>>should be changed to bi-directional transorbs or similar. Okay don't panic,
>>but put it on your list. If you are having problems (sticking contactors?,
>>better upgrade now). This is a significant change we can all blame Paul
>>Messinger for.
>>
>>Read these links-- Yikes....
>>
>>http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/application.asp
>>
>>http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/kilovac/appnotes/transients.stm
>>
>>And of course, these are available from me.
>>
>>http://www.periheliondesign.com/suppressors/SnapJack.pdf Website hasn't
>>been updated yet.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Eric M. Jones
>>www.PerihelionDesign.com
>>113 Brentwood Drive
>>Southbridge MA 01550-2705
>>Phone (508) 764-2072
>>Email: emjones@charter.net
>>
>>"...as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know.
>>We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are
>>some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones
>>we don't know we don't know." D. Rumsfeld
>>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Diodes across relay coils |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: paul wilson <pwilson@climber.org>
Thanks Dick
Most of the discussion went past me as you noted. I need the inputs to be
pretty short and simple. :-)
Paul W
==========
At 06:58 PM 3/24/05 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker
><retasker@optonline.net>
>
>Actually Paul did say bidirectional transorb. He also mentioned if you
>use a uni-directional transorb you must also use a series diode with it.
>
>A bi-directional transorb must have a sufficiently high breakdown
>voltage so it never turns on with normal battery/alternator voltage
>present - i.e. use one with at least a 16V breakdown.
>
>As an exercise for the student, you can "tune" the response by using a
>lower voltage transorb with a series diode to get whatever voltage spike
>you are comfortable with. I.e., trade off turn-off time with voltage
>spike magnitude. :-) Or not...
>
>Dick Tasker
>
>
>paul wilson wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: paul wilson <pwilson@climber.org>
> >
> >Eric,
> > Paul said "directional transorbs"
> > You said "bi-directional transorbs or similar"
> > Typo? Or do I need help to understand?
> >Thanks, Paul
> >======================
> >
> >At 04:15 PM 3/24/05 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones"
> <emjones@charter.net>
> >>
> >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Messinger"
> <paulm@olypen.com>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>For decades 99.999% of the engineering world recommended and used the
> >>>
> >>>
> >>common rectifier diode across inductors like relay coils to suppress the
> >>inductive spike that happens hen the power to the inductor is interrupted.
> >>
> >>Hey, my dad taught me this technique....And he claimed never to be wrong.
> >>Usually.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I have removed all the simple diodes across relays and replaced them with
> >>>
> >>>
> >>by directional transorbs and also supplied parts to the local builders as
> >>well.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Paul
> >>>
> >>>
> >>This posting was really significant but has not been much commented on.
> >>Basically, ALL the suppressor diodes on all coils and relays and contactors
> >>should be changed to bi-directional transorbs or similar. Okay don't panic,
> >>but put it on your list. If you are having problems (sticking contactors?,
> >>better upgrade now). This is a significant change we can all blame Paul
> >>Messinger for.
> >>
> >>Read these links-- Yikes....
> >>
> >>http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/application.asp
> >>
> >>http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/kilovac/appnotes/transients.stm
> >>
> >>And of course, these are available from me.
> >>
> >>http://www.periheliondesign.com/suppressors/SnapJack.pdf Website hasn't
> >>been updated yet.
> >>
> >>Regards,
> >>Eric M. Jones
> >>www.PerihelionDesign.com
> >>113 Brentwood Drive
> >>Southbridge MA 01550-2705
> >>Phone (508) 764-2072
> >>Email: emjones@charter.net
> >>
> >>"...as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know.
> >>We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are
> >>some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones
> >>we don't know we don't know." D. Rumsfeld
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Diodes across relay coils |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: paul wilson <pwilson@climber.org>
>Eric,
> Paul said "directional transorbs"
>You said "bi-directional transorbs or similar"
>Typo? Or do I need help to understand?
>Thanks, Paul
======================
Paul Messinger wrote
> >I have removed all the simple diodes across relays and replaced them with
>>by directional transorbs and also supplied parts to the local builders as
>>well.
> >Paul
But hear Paul did not spel so gud.
Bi-Directional...There is a class of these---Transorbs, Transils, Mosorbs,
etc. all bi-directional Zener Transient Voltage Suppressor Diodes.
"SnapJacks".
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones@charter.net
"I tried being reasonable--I didn't like it!"
--Clint Eastwood
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