Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:53 AM - Re: Mag switches (f1rocket@comcast.net)
2. 06:01 AM - Re: ANL-30? (John Schroeder)
3. 06:36 AM - Re: ANL-30? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:43 AM - Re: Great Leap Backwards? (Chuck Jensen)
5. 03:58 PM - Re: ANL-30? (Condrey, Bob (US SSA))
6. 04:38 PM - Making real world sense of the OVP thread (John Swartout)
7. 05:08 PM - Re: Making real world sense of the OVP thread (Matt Prather)
8. 08:05 PM - Two impulse mags? (Larry Bowen)
9. 08:10 PM - Re: Two impulse mags? (BobsV35B@aol.com)
10. 08:10 PM - Re: Re: ANL-30? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 08:10 PM - Two impulse mags? (Larry Bowen)
12. 08:24 PM - Avionics & Audio Questions (Tinne maha)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Mag switches |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: f1rocket@comcast.net
Mitch,
I did it with the switches you noted just so the switch positions were the same
for on and off.
Randy
F1 Rocket
www.pflanzer-aviation.com
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mitch Faatz"
>
> I'm looking at the latest Z-11 which shows two 2-5 switches to be used for mag
> switches and starter. Is there a reason why the right mag switch is a 2-5
> (on)-off-on switch like the left mag? The momentary position on the left mag
> switch is for starter engage, but shouldn't the right mag switch be a 2-3 on-on
> instead? No un-used momentary position and half the price. Or am I missing
> something?
>
> One of these months, I'm going to get my wiring finalized so I can start running
> wires...Grrrrr
>
> Mitch Faatz RV-6A Finish Kit Auburn, CA
>
>
>
>
>
>
Mitch,
I did it with the switches you noted just so the switch positions were the same
for on and off.
Randy
F1 Rocket
www.pflanzer-aviation.com
-------------- Original message --------------
-- AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mitch Faatz" <MITCHF@SKYBOUND.COM>
I'm looking at the latest Z-11 which shows two 2-5 switches to be used for mag
switches and starter. Is there a reason why the right mag switch is a 2-5
(on)-off-on switch like the left mag? The momentary position on the left mag
switch is for starter engage, but shouldn't the right mag switch be a 2-3 on-on
instead? No un-used momentary position and half the price. Or am I missing
something?
One of these months, I'm going to get my wiring finalized so I can start running
wires...Grrrrr
Mitch Faatz RV-6A Finish Kit Auburn, CA
ist Email Forum -
Message 2
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Bob -
Z-14 shows a 40 amp ANL, so we installed that. You said it would be OK.
Any change of thought here?
Thanks,
John
>> <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>> I notice that the various Z drawings show different protection schemes
>> for the SD-20 alternator. Some use an ANL30 and others show fusable
>> link. I'd prefer to use an ANL type fuse/holder over a fusable link but
> The smaller b-lead fuses could also make use of the
> MAXI series fuses sold in automotive parts houses.
> They also have robust, inline holders for these fuses.
>
> Bob . . .
Message 3
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 08:59 AM 3/30/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder"
><jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
>Bob -
>
>Z-14 shows a 40 amp ANL, so we installed that. You said it would be OK.
>Any change of thought here?
>
>Thanks,
>
>John
The sizes of the ANL series limiters is not critical.
They are VERY robust fuses . . . (I think they'll carry
200% of rated indefinitely at room temperature). You need
some protection for the hard fault which these guys will
do. My figure Z-14 shows ANL-30 limiters downstream of
40A alternators. One is advised to adjust the size of the
current protection to best accommodate the size of
the alternator. 60A alternators would take something
larger than an ANL-30, a 40 would probably be fine
and a 60 is a sure bet.
Keep in mind that SIZES of anything called out in Z-figures
are subject to adjustment based on specifics of your
system and should not be taken as suggestions for every/all
cases. These are ARCHITECTURE drawings.
Here are links to data on Bussmann products cited in
this and other posts on this subject:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/MAX_InLine.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/anl.pdf
http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/maxifuse.pdf
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Great Leap Backwards? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
Your a good man, Matt Dralle!!
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
bakerocb@cox.net
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Great Leap Backwards?
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Matt Dralle
<dralle@matronics.com>
<<Whoops, sorry... I am doing maintenance on the Matronics webserver today
and it sounds like you tried to access the new page when it was
unavailable...
I had gotten a number of complaints from members about the size of the old
style message trailer. I came up with the new, smaller version in hopes of
making everyone happy.
Do you still have the same complaint, if the line worked...?
PS- The webserver is up right now, but I will be taking it up and down a
few more times today. Best regards, Matt Dralle>>
3/29/2005
Hello Matt Dralle, Thanks for the quick response.
I apologize. I should have had more patience / faith when I tried Navigator
a couple of times and it did not work. I must have hit it when it was down
for maintenance.
I think that it works fine and have no complaints with the present
configuration. Many thanks for your continuing support to our homebuilder
community.
'OC'
Message 5
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" <bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
Bob,
Thanks for the additional info on the Maxi line of fuses. I just
thought I was missing something - Z-14 showed them and a search through the
archives found an email that indicated that both your web site and B&C carried
them. But, when neither website or Bussman had them...
Bob
>Bob -
>
>Z-14 shows a 40 amp ANL, so we installed that. You said it would
be OK.
>Any change of thought here?
>
>Thanks,
>
>John
The sizes of the ANL series limiters is not critical.
They are VERY robust fuses . . . (I think they'll carry
200% of rated indefinitely at room temperature). You need
some protection for the hard fault which these guys will
do. My figure Z-14 shows ANL-30 limiters downstream of
40A alternators. One is advised to adjust the size of the
current protection to best accommodate the size of
the alternator. 60A alternators would take something
larger than an ANL-30, a 40 would probably be fine
and a 60 is a sure bet.
Keep in mind that SIZES of anything called out in Z-figures
are subject to adjustment based on specifics of your
system and should not be taken as suggestions for every/all
cases. These are ARCHITECTURE drawings.
Here are links to data on Bussmann products cited in
this and other posts on this subject:
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/MAX_InLine.pdf>
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/anl.pdf>
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/maxifuse.pdf>
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Making real world sense of the OVP thread |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout" <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
Bob, Paul, Eric, et al:
I've been following the overvoltage protection/load dump dialogue as
best I can as a non-electrical-engineer. A couple of ideas and
questions come to mind.
First of all, it seems that most electrical devices have at least some
tolerance for momentary aberrations in the supply, if they are users, or
the load, if they are suppliers. I also deduce that part of the idea
behind the crowbar circuit is that when the alternator goes seriously
off the reservation (which, I think I understand, is a regulator
failure, not a failure of the alternator itself) we sacrifice a cheap
device (a fuse) to save the expensive ones (avionics, GPSs, etc.) while
isolating the alternator.
Well, I opted to go with a relatively cheap main alternator (a new
internally-regulated 55 amp NipponDenso-which incidentally turns out to
be not that cheap, because first I need to spend $30 for a bracket; and
then, to run it at a reasonable speed, 2000-5000 rpm, it will cost me
some $20 for a 5"x5" piece of aluminum plate and some $60 to $75 to have
it machined into a 5" pulley; and then a matching plug, if I can find
one, which will not slip off the quarter-inch flat spade terminals; so I
will have some $260 in this "cheap" alternator) and an auxiliary B&C
SD-8. Why? Because even with $700 worth of alternators, it's still
cheaper and lighter than a single certified alternator. And I have
redundancy. And if the main alternator does fail, only the $120
alternator itself has to be replaced.
So let's carry the crowbar philosophy one step further. If a crowbar
sacrifices a fuse to sever the offending alternator from the buss to
protect high-dollar electronics, BUT produces a load dump in the process
which could be potentially as destructive as the OV situation that
triggered it, and so far, this consequence has not been satisfactorily
controlled, let me propose that the second-cheapest device in my
electrical system, after the fuse, is my $120 alternator. If necessary,
I nominate IT as the second victim on the firing line. If I could reach
the wires attached to this alternator with an axe, I believe I could
remove that runaway alternator from the system more or less
instantaneously before the electrons knew what was happening, and to
hell with the alternator. Am I wrong?
Is there an electrical way to wield that axe?
Secondly, from what I've read about alternators, they are probably
better able to take momentary abuse than any other device in my
electrical system-so why not-if there is a way-direct the abuse thither.
Am I missing something?
Bob, your description of linear vs. switching regulators in AEC didn't
convince me that for my application, the linear is superior. Is it
inherently more failsafe? Why exactly are you not fond of internal
regulation? Is it a) because it is a switcher? Or b) because its
quality can't be evaluated? Or both?
Okay, final question. Since our airplane electronic devices are now,
essentially, computers, how about using computer-protection technology
to protect them? Uninterruptible power source (UPS), surge suppressor,
and/or power conditioner type devices and/or architecture. Would they
a) work? and b) meet our high ruggedness standards for airplanes? and c)
be affordable and light weight?
Thanks, men.
John
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Making real world sense of the OVP thread |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
Pulley woes solved here?
http://www.rjays.com/Rjays_electrical/alternators-01.htm
If that is cut off, try: http://tinyurl.com/55742
There are others that are commercially available for the Hot
Rod crowd.
Regards,
Matt-
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout"
> <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
>
> Bob, Paul, Eric, et al:
>
>
> I've been following the overvoltage protection/load dump dialogue as
> best I can as a non-electrical-engineer. A couple of ideas and
> questions come to mind.
>
>
> First of all, it seems that most electrical devices have at least some
> tolerance for momentary aberrations in the supply, if they are users, or
> the load, if they are suppliers. I also deduce that part of the idea
> behind the crowbar circuit is that when the alternator goes seriously
> off the reservation (which, I think I understand, is a regulator
> failure, not a failure of the alternator itself) we sacrifice a cheap
> device (a fuse) to save the expensive ones (avionics, GPSs, etc.) while
> isolating the alternator.
>
>
> Well, I opted to go with a relatively cheap main alternator (a new
> internally-regulated 55 amp NipponDenso-which incidentally turns out to
> be not that cheap, because first I need to spend $30 for a bracket; and
> then, to run it at a reasonable speed, 2000-5000 rpm, it will cost me
> some $20 for a 5"x5" piece of aluminum plate and some $60 to $75 to have
> it machined into a 5" pulley; and then a matching plug, if I can find
> one, which will not slip off the quarter-inch flat spade terminals; so I
> will have some $260 in this "cheap" alternator) and an auxiliary B&C
> SD-8. Why? Because even with $700 worth of alternators, it's still
> cheaper and lighter than a single certified alternator. And I have
> redundancy. And if the main alternator does fail, only the $120
> alternator itself has to be replaced.
>
>
> So let's carry the crowbar philosophy one step further. If a crowbar
> sacrifices a fuse to sever the offending alternator from the buss to
> protect high-dollar electronics, BUT produces a load dump in the process
> which could be potentially as destructive as the OV situation that
> triggered it, and so far, this consequence has not been satisfactorily
> controlled, let me propose that the second-cheapest device in my
> electrical system, after the fuse, is my $120 alternator. If necessary,
> I nominate IT as the second victim on the firing line. If I could reach
> the wires attached to this alternator with an axe, I believe I could
> remove that runaway alternator from the system more or less
> instantaneously before the electrons knew what was happening, and to
> hell with the alternator. Am I wrong?
>
>
> Is there an electrical way to wield that axe?
>
>
> Secondly, from what I've read about alternators, they are probably
> better able to take momentary abuse than any other device in my
> electrical system-so why not-if there is a way-direct the abuse thither.
>
>
> Am I missing something?
>
>
> Bob, your description of linear vs. switching regulators in AEC didn't
> convince me that for my application, the linear is superior. Is it
> inherently more failsafe? Why exactly are you not fond of internal
> regulation? Is it a) because it is a switcher? Or b) because its
> quality can't be evaluated? Or both?
>
>
> Okay, final question. Since our airplane electronic devices are now,
> essentially, computers, how about using computer-protection technology
> to protect them? Uninterruptible power source (UPS), surge suppressor,
> and/or power conditioner type devices and/or architecture. Would they
> a) work? and b) meet our high ruggedness standards for airplanes? and c)
> be affordable and light weight?
>
>
> Thanks, men.
>
>
> John
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Two impulse mags? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
I'm considering replacing my unreliable Rose elec ign with another slick
mag. Is there any crime in having two impulse mags so I don't have to rely
on the operator to keep the non-impulse mag off while cranking? Or is there
a better way?
Starter and both ignitions are each on toggle switches.
Thanks,
-
Larry Bowen, RV-8/O-360
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Two impulse mags? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 3/30/2005 10:06:43 P.M. Central Standard Time,
Larry@BowenAero.com writes:
I'm considering replacing my unreliable Rose elec ign with another slick
mag. Is there any crime in having two impulse mags so I don't have to rely
on the operator to keep the non-impulse mag off while cranking? Or is there
a better way?
Good Evening Larry,
The vast majority of Bonanzas and derivative aircraft are equipped with dual
impulse magnetos.
Work just fine.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 10
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
Oh, yeah. Understand.
At 03:57 PM 3/30/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)"
><bob.condrey@baesystems.com>
>
>
> Bob,
>
> Thanks for the additional info on the Maxi line of
> fuses. I just thought I was missing something - Z-14 showed them and a
> search through the archives found an email that indicated that both your
> web site and B&C carried them. But, when neither website or Bussman had
> them...
Oh, now I understand. Hmmmm . . . I've never carried the ANL
series devices and B&C only carries the fuses that support
their STC'd kits. The Bussmann data sheet lists an ANL40 although
they don't graph it.
It's not a common part in the wild. Did a Google search and
found only a few folks offering the ANL40 . . . guess it's
not a big catalog item. In any case, one can select from
other equally suitable fuse products.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Two impulse mags? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
I'm considering replacing my unreliable Rose elec ign with another slick
mag. Is there any crime in having two impulse mags so I don't have to rely
on the operator to keep the non-impulse mag off while cranking? Or is there
a better way?
Starter and both ignitions are each on toggle switches.
Thanks,
-
Larry Bowen, RV-8/O-360
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Avionics & Audio Questions |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
This list (especially Bob Knuckolls) has been EXTREMEMELY helpful with my
understanding, planning, re-designing & fabricating the electrical system in
my OBAM aircraft. Many thanks for enduring my seemingly silly questions. I
have much more to learn, but am comfortable proceeding with my project &
eager to get in the air. However, I am feeling overwhelmed by my lack of
understanding of avionics & audio systems. I have my simple VFR only panel
layed out & am sure it can be done the way I am envisioning, but have no
idea how to get there. I haven't found info in the connection specific to
this topic. Can someone can point me in the right direction? Is it in The
Connection & I'm just not seeing it or is there another source? Do the
manufacturer's instructions tell how?
Specifically, I am planning to install a Garmin GNC 250 XL panel mounted
GPS/Comm (not purchased yet) with a King, KT-76A transponder & a flightcom
403 intercom (in my posession, but no instructions). That's it for
avionics, but I also hope to install an Ipod mini to keep my passenger
entertained (me too when not talking to ATC)
Any help will again be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again (& in advance),
Grant Krueger
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