---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 03/30/05: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:53 AM - Re: Mag switches (f1rocket@comcast.net) 2. 06:01 AM - Re: ANL-30? (John Schroeder) 3. 06:36 AM - Re: ANL-30? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 07:43 AM - Re: Great Leap Backwards? (Chuck Jensen) 5. 03:58 PM - Re: ANL-30? (Condrey, Bob (US SSA)) 6. 04:38 PM - Making real world sense of the OVP thread (John Swartout) 7. 05:08 PM - Re: Making real world sense of the OVP thread (Matt Prather) 8. 08:05 PM - Two impulse mags? (Larry Bowen) 9. 08:10 PM - Re: Two impulse mags? (BobsV35B@aol.com) 10. 08:10 PM - Re: Re: ANL-30? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 08:10 PM - Two impulse mags? (Larry Bowen) 12. 08:24 PM - Avionics & Audio Questions (Tinne maha) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:23 AM PST US From: f1rocket@comcast.net Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Mag switches --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: f1rocket@comcast.net Mitch, I did it with the switches you noted just so the switch positions were the same for on and off. Randy F1 Rocket www.pflanzer-aviation.com -------------- Original message -------------- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mitch Faatz" > > I'm looking at the latest Z-11 which shows two 2-5 switches to be used for mag > switches and starter. Is there a reason why the right mag switch is a 2-5 > (on)-off-on switch like the left mag? The momentary position on the left mag > switch is for starter engage, but shouldn't the right mag switch be a 2-3 on-on > instead? No un-used momentary position and half the price. Or am I missing > something? > > One of these months, I'm going to get my wiring finalized so I can start running > wires...Grrrrr > > Mitch Faatz RV-6A Finish Kit Auburn, CA > > > > > > Mitch, I did it with the switches you noted just so the switch positions were the same for on and off. Randy F1 Rocket www.pflanzer-aviation.com -------------- Original message -------------- -- AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mitch Faatz" I'm looking at the latest Z-11 which shows two 2-5 switches to be used for mag switches and starter. Is there a reason why the right mag switch is a 2-5 (on)-off-on switch like the left mag? The momentary position on the left mag switch is for starter engage, but shouldn't the right mag switch be a 2-3 on-on instead? No un-used momentary position and half the price. Or am I missing something? One of these months, I'm going to get my wiring finalized so I can start running wires...Grrrrr Mitch Faatz RV-6A Finish Kit Auburn, CA ist Email Forum - ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:13 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ANL-30? From: "John Schroeder" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" Bob - Z-14 shows a 40 amp ANL, so we installed that. You said it would be OK. Any change of thought here? Thanks, John >> >> >> Bob, >> >> I notice that the various Z drawings show different protection schemes >> for the SD-20 alternator. Some use an ANL30 and others show fusable >> link. I'd prefer to use an ANL type fuse/holder over a fusable link but > The smaller b-lead fuses could also make use of the > MAXI series fuses sold in automotive parts houses. > They also have robust, inline holders for these fuses. > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:07 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ANL-30? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:59 AM 3/30/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" > > >Bob - > >Z-14 shows a 40 amp ANL, so we installed that. You said it would be OK. >Any change of thought here? > >Thanks, > >John The sizes of the ANL series limiters is not critical. They are VERY robust fuses . . . (I think they'll carry 200% of rated indefinitely at room temperature). You need some protection for the hard fault which these guys will do. My figure Z-14 shows ANL-30 limiters downstream of 40A alternators. One is advised to adjust the size of the current protection to best accommodate the size of the alternator. 60A alternators would take something larger than an ANL-30, a 40 would probably be fine and a 60 is a sure bet. Keep in mind that SIZES of anything called out in Z-figures are subject to adjustment based on specifics of your system and should not be taken as suggestions for every/all cases. These are ARCHITECTURE drawings. Here are links to data on Bussmann products cited in this and other posts on this subject: http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/MAX_InLine.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/anl.pdf http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/maxifuse.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:03 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Great Leap Backwards? From: "Chuck Jensen" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" Your a good man, Matt Dralle!! do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of bakerocb@cox.net Subject: AeroElectric-List: Great Leap Backwards? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: Matt Dralle <> 3/29/2005 Hello Matt Dralle, Thanks for the quick response. I apologize. I should have had more patience / faith when I tried Navigator a couple of times and it did not work. I must have hit it when it was down for maintenance. I think that it works fine and have no complaints with the present configuration. Many thanks for your continuing support to our homebuilder community. 'OC' ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:58:06 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: ANL-30? From: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" Bob, Thanks for the additional info on the Maxi line of fuses. I just thought I was missing something - Z-14 showed them and a search through the archives found an email that indicated that both your web site and B&C carried them. But, when neither website or Bussman had them... Bob >Bob - > >Z-14 shows a 40 amp ANL, so we installed that. You said it would be OK. >Any change of thought here? > >Thanks, > >John The sizes of the ANL series limiters is not critical. They are VERY robust fuses . . . (I think they'll carry 200% of rated indefinitely at room temperature). You need some protection for the hard fault which these guys will do. My figure Z-14 shows ANL-30 limiters downstream of 40A alternators. One is advised to adjust the size of the current protection to best accommodate the size of the alternator. 60A alternators would take something larger than an ANL-30, a 40 would probably be fine and a 60 is a sure bet. Keep in mind that SIZES of anything called out in Z-figures are subject to adjustment based on specifics of your system and should not be taken as suggestions for every/all cases. These are ARCHITECTURE drawings. Here are links to data on Bussmann products cited in this and other posts on this subject: Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:42 PM PST US From: "John Swartout" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Making real world sense of the OVP thread --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout" Bob, Paul, Eric, et al: I've been following the overvoltage protection/load dump dialogue as best I can as a non-electrical-engineer. A couple of ideas and questions come to mind. First of all, it seems that most electrical devices have at least some tolerance for momentary aberrations in the supply, if they are users, or the load, if they are suppliers. I also deduce that part of the idea behind the crowbar circuit is that when the alternator goes seriously off the reservation (which, I think I understand, is a regulator failure, not a failure of the alternator itself) we sacrifice a cheap device (a fuse) to save the expensive ones (avionics, GPSs, etc.) while isolating the alternator. Well, I opted to go with a relatively cheap main alternator (a new internally-regulated 55 amp NipponDenso-which incidentally turns out to be not that cheap, because first I need to spend $30 for a bracket; and then, to run it at a reasonable speed, 2000-5000 rpm, it will cost me some $20 for a 5"x5" piece of aluminum plate and some $60 to $75 to have it machined into a 5" pulley; and then a matching plug, if I can find one, which will not slip off the quarter-inch flat spade terminals; so I will have some $260 in this "cheap" alternator) and an auxiliary B&C SD-8. Why? Because even with $700 worth of alternators, it's still cheaper and lighter than a single certified alternator. And I have redundancy. And if the main alternator does fail, only the $120 alternator itself has to be replaced. So let's carry the crowbar philosophy one step further. If a crowbar sacrifices a fuse to sever the offending alternator from the buss to protect high-dollar electronics, BUT produces a load dump in the process which could be potentially as destructive as the OV situation that triggered it, and so far, this consequence has not been satisfactorily controlled, let me propose that the second-cheapest device in my electrical system, after the fuse, is my $120 alternator. If necessary, I nominate IT as the second victim on the firing line. If I could reach the wires attached to this alternator with an axe, I believe I could remove that runaway alternator from the system more or less instantaneously before the electrons knew what was happening, and to hell with the alternator. Am I wrong? Is there an electrical way to wield that axe? Secondly, from what I've read about alternators, they are probably better able to take momentary abuse than any other device in my electrical system-so why not-if there is a way-direct the abuse thither. Am I missing something? Bob, your description of linear vs. switching regulators in AEC didn't convince me that for my application, the linear is superior. Is it inherently more failsafe? Why exactly are you not fond of internal regulation? Is it a) because it is a switcher? Or b) because its quality can't be evaluated? Or both? Okay, final question. Since our airplane electronic devices are now, essentially, computers, how about using computer-protection technology to protect them? Uninterruptible power source (UPS), surge suppressor, and/or power conditioner type devices and/or architecture. Would they a) work? and b) meet our high ruggedness standards for airplanes? and c) be affordable and light weight? Thanks, men. John ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:08:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Making real world sense of the OVP thread From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Pulley woes solved here? http://www.rjays.com/Rjays_electrical/alternators-01.htm If that is cut off, try: http://tinyurl.com/55742 There are others that are commercially available for the Hot Rod crowd. Regards, Matt- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout" > > > Bob, Paul, Eric, et al: > > > I've been following the overvoltage protection/load dump dialogue as > best I can as a non-electrical-engineer. A couple of ideas and > questions come to mind. > > > First of all, it seems that most electrical devices have at least some > tolerance for momentary aberrations in the supply, if they are users, or > the load, if they are suppliers. I also deduce that part of the idea > behind the crowbar circuit is that when the alternator goes seriously > off the reservation (which, I think I understand, is a regulator > failure, not a failure of the alternator itself) we sacrifice a cheap > device (a fuse) to save the expensive ones (avionics, GPSs, etc.) while > isolating the alternator. > > > Well, I opted to go with a relatively cheap main alternator (a new > internally-regulated 55 amp NipponDenso-which incidentally turns out to > be not that cheap, because first I need to spend $30 for a bracket; and > then, to run it at a reasonable speed, 2000-5000 rpm, it will cost me > some $20 for a 5"x5" piece of aluminum plate and some $60 to $75 to have > it machined into a 5" pulley; and then a matching plug, if I can find > one, which will not slip off the quarter-inch flat spade terminals; so I > will have some $260 in this "cheap" alternator) and an auxiliary B&C > SD-8. Why? Because even with $700 worth of alternators, it's still > cheaper and lighter than a single certified alternator. And I have > redundancy. And if the main alternator does fail, only the $120 > alternator itself has to be replaced. > > > So let's carry the crowbar philosophy one step further. If a crowbar > sacrifices a fuse to sever the offending alternator from the buss to > protect high-dollar electronics, BUT produces a load dump in the process > which could be potentially as destructive as the OV situation that > triggered it, and so far, this consequence has not been satisfactorily > controlled, let me propose that the second-cheapest device in my > electrical system, after the fuse, is my $120 alternator. If necessary, > I nominate IT as the second victim on the firing line. If I could reach > the wires attached to this alternator with an axe, I believe I could > remove that runaway alternator from the system more or less > instantaneously before the electrons knew what was happening, and to > hell with the alternator. Am I wrong? > > > Is there an electrical way to wield that axe? > > > Secondly, from what I've read about alternators, they are probably > better able to take momentary abuse than any other device in my > electrical system-so why not-if there is a way-direct the abuse thither. > > > Am I missing something? > > > Bob, your description of linear vs. switching regulators in AEC didn't > convince me that for my application, the linear is superior. Is it > inherently more failsafe? Why exactly are you not fond of internal > regulation? Is it a) because it is a switcher? Or b) because its > quality can't be evaluated? Or both? > > > Okay, final question. Since our airplane electronic devices are now, > essentially, computers, how about using computer-protection technology > to protect them? Uninterruptible power source (UPS), surge suppressor, > and/or power conditioner type devices and/or architecture. Would they > a) work? and b) meet our high ruggedness standards for airplanes? and c) > be affordable and light weight? > > > Thanks, men. > > > John > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:05:52 PM PST US From: "Larry Bowen" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Two impulse mags? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" I'm considering replacing my unreliable Rose elec ign with another slick mag. Is there any crime in having two impulse mags so I don't have to rely on the operator to keep the non-impulse mag off while cranking? Or is there a better way? Starter and both ignitions are each on toggle switches. Thanks, - Larry Bowen, RV-8/O-360 Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:13 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Two impulse mags? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com In a message dated 3/30/2005 10:06:43 P.M. Central Standard Time, Larry@BowenAero.com writes: I'm considering replacing my unreliable Rose elec ign with another slick mag. Is there any crime in having two impulse mags so I don't have to rely on the operator to keep the non-impulse mag off while cranking? Or is there a better way? Good Evening Larry, The vast majority of Bonanzas and derivative aircraft are equipped with dual impulse magnetos. Work just fine. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman N3977A Brookeridge Airpark LL22 Downers Grove, IL 60516 630 985-8502 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:29 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: ANL-30? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Oh, yeah. Understand. At 03:57 PM 3/30/2005 -0800, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" > > > > Bob, > > Thanks for the additional info on the Maxi line of > fuses. I just thought I was missing something - Z-14 showed them and a > search through the archives found an email that indicated that both your > web site and B&C carried them. But, when neither website or Bussman had > them... Oh, now I understand. Hmmmm . . . I've never carried the ANL series devices and B&C only carries the fuses that support their STC'd kits. The Bussmann data sheet lists an ANL40 although they don't graph it. It's not a common part in the wild. Did a Google search and found only a few folks offering the ANL40 . . . guess it's not a big catalog item. In any case, one can select from other equally suitable fuse products. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:55 PM PST US From: "Larry Bowen" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Two impulse mags? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" I'm considering replacing my unreliable Rose elec ign with another slick mag. Is there any crime in having two impulse mags so I don't have to rely on the operator to keep the non-impulse mag off while cranking? Or is there a better way? Starter and both ignitions are each on toggle switches. Thanks, - Larry Bowen, RV-8/O-360 Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:10 PM PST US From: "Tinne maha" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Avionics & Audio Questions --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" This list (especially Bob Knuckolls) has been EXTREMEMELY helpful with my understanding, planning, re-designing & fabricating the electrical system in my OBAM aircraft. Many thanks for enduring my seemingly silly questions. I have much more to learn, but am comfortable proceeding with my project & eager to get in the air. However, I am feeling overwhelmed by my lack of understanding of avionics & audio systems. I have my simple VFR only panel layed out & am sure it can be done the way I am envisioning, but have no idea how to get there. I haven't found info in the connection specific to this topic. Can someone can point me in the right direction? Is it in The Connection & I'm just not seeing it or is there another source? Do the manufacturer's instructions tell how? Specifically, I am planning to install a Garmin GNC 250 XL panel mounted GPS/Comm (not purchased yet) with a King, KT-76A transponder & a flightcom 403 intercom (in my posession, but no instructions). That's it for avionics, but I also hope to install an Ipod mini to keep my passenger entertained (me too when not talking to ATC) Any help will again be greatly appreciated. Thanks again (& in advance), Grant Krueger