Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:47 AM - Re: CBA II Good news and bad news (Gilles Thesee)
2. 02:55 AM - Re: EL Panel Lights (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky))
3. 05:34 AM - DOGS and LIGHTBULBS (RV4WGH@aol.com)
4. 05:41 AM - Re: flying unstalled at 0 airspeed (Mark Sletten)
5. 05:41 AM - Michel MC-60 ILS/GPS Indicator (Mark Sletten)
6. 06:42 AM - Re: Alternator help (Ken)
7. 06:56 AM - Panel Slant (Tinne maha)
8. 07:01 AM - Light Weight Coaxial Cable (Tinne maha)
9. 07:22 AM - Re: Alternator help (Robert McCallum)
10. 07:39 AM - Re: Alternator help (Robert McCallum)
11. 07:55 AM - Re: Blue White LED Light was Emag/mag (Charlie Kuss)
12. 08:25 AM - Re: Prop Balance, was: Balance, Was: (Charlie Kuss)
13. 08:25 AM - Re: Alternators (Charlie Kuss)
14. 08:29 AM - Re: Alternator help (Charlie Kuss)
15. 08:41 AM - Re: Panel Slant (Alex Peterson)
16. 08:42 AM - Re: Blue White LED Light was Emag/mag (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 08:51 AM - Re: Precise Aircraft Manuevering (Speedy11@aol.com)
18. 08:54 AM - Re: Alternator help (Charlie Kuss)
19. 08:56 AM - Re: Light Weight Coaxial Cable (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 09:11 AM - Re: CBA II Good news and bad news (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 09:34 AM - Re: Re: Alternator help (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
22. 09:48 AM - Re: Nuckoll's Paper on Electrical System (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 10:44 AM - Re: Prop Balance, was: Balance, Was: Alternator help (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
24. 11:18 AM - Re: Nuckoll's Paper on Electrical System Reliability (J. Mcculley)
25. 11:27 AM - Re: Emag/mag timing question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
26. 11:29 AM - Re: Two independent systems (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
27. 12:54 PM - Electric trim (Paul McAllister)
28. 01:13 PM - CBA II source (Paul)
29. 01:17 PM - Re: EL Panel Lights (John Schroeder)
30. 01:49 PM - Re: Re: Precise Aircraft Manuevering (rd2@evenlink.com)
31. 01:59 PM - Re: Panel Slant (BobsV35B@aol.com)
32. 01:59 PM - Re: Re: Precise Aircraft Manuevering (Mike Larkin)
33. 02:16 PM - Re: Alternator help (John Swartout)
34. 02:23 PM - Re: Two independent systems (BobsV35B@aol.com)
35. 02:42 PM - Re: Alternator help (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
36. 03:08 PM - Re: Nuckoll's Paper on Electrical System (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
37. 03:20 PM - Re: flying unstalled at 0 airspeed (j1j2h3@juno.com)
38. 05:23 PM - Re: EL Panel Lights (Stein Bruch)
39. 05:52 PM - Re: Re: Precise Aircraft Manuevering (BUCK AND GLORIA BUCHANAN)
40. 06:25 PM - six pack spacing (Tom Barter)
41. 07:06 PM - Re: Emag/mag timing question (George Braly)
42. 07:19 PM - Re: Prop Balance, was: Balance, Was: Alternator help (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
43. 07:47 PM - Alternator Speed (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
44. 07:55 PM - Re: Emag/mag timing question (John D. Heath)
45. 08:11 PM - Re: Alternator Speed (Charlie England)
46. 08:41 PM - Re: Alternators on the AeroElectric List (Charlie Kuss)
47. 09:38 PM - Re: Alternator Speed (n801bh@netzero.com)
48. 09:39 PM - Six Pack Spacing (hebeard@comcast.net)
49. 09:52 PM - Re: Alternator Speed (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
50. 10:01 PM - Molex Extraction Tool (Guy Buchanan)
51. 10:01 PM - How to Wire an Aircraft (Guy Buchanan)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: CBA II Good news and bad news |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Hi all,
> Opened the "smoked" CBA III . . . here's a picture of
> the internals.
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/CBA2_2.jpg
>
> Turns out that the little guy in the center is an
> International Rectifier IRL2910. Ratings for this
> device can be found at:
>
>http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irl2910.pdf
>
> This device is NOT capable of performing under
> the range of test conditions advertised for the
> CBA II. I am completely mystified as to the selection
> of this part when there are so many others offered by
> International Rectifier and others that would do the job.
>
>
Rats ! I had hopes you could just have had a strike of bad luck. 4 amps
instead of the 40 advertised, and 48-50 watts instead of 100 seems way
below expectation. Il opened my unit and it has the same p/n and the
same rectifier.
I'll perform my first experiment this afternoon with one of my 7.5 Ah
Hawker SBS8. I'll start with 2 amps. I'll take some photos of the test
setup before and after, just in case...
I hope they rapidly sort out the problem, because this small device
seems very promising, and the software is expertly crafted.
Bob, thanks for sharing the info,
Regards,
Gilles
Now looking at my unit with suspicion...
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: EL Panel Lights |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)
How does the Blue/Green color mix with the GRT EFIS display during night flight?
Is it bright enough so that one strip beneath the glareshield can illuminate the
entire panel adequately?
Since you have been flying it for years, how do you secure it under the glare shield
without it being a nuisance to install and keep in place over time?
Can you cut the strip in to smaller pieces and place them in different spots and
run power to the strips in seriel? If so, can we order 36 inches in two or
3 smaller lengths instead of the one big length in a way which makes it easy to
string them together? (36" which is too long for the glareshield of an RV8 in
my opinion - fine for a side by side).
Thanks,
lucky
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch"
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> I'm not out stumping here, but just a quick note to let everyone know that I
> now have the Elecroluminescent light strips in stock. These are 1" x 36"
> flatlite EL strips in the natural 'blue/green' color, that can be trimmed to
> a shorter length if you desire. The light draws very little current, and
> comes with a nice smal 1" square 12VDC inverter. This light can be dimmed
> using your regular dimmer as well.
>
> Just an FYI, and my apologies in advance for the intrusion. There were just
> a LOT of people that wanted to know when we finally got these things in
> stock.
>
> Cheers,
> Stein Bruch
> RV6's, Minneapolis
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> http://www.steinair.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
How does the Blue/Green color mix with the GRT EFIS display during night flight?
Is it bright enough so that one strip beneath theglareshield can illuminate the
entire panel adequately?
Since you have been flying it for years, how do you secure it under the glare shield
without it being a nuisance to install and keep in place over time?
Can you cut the strip in to smaller pieces and place them in different spots and
run power to the strips in seriel? If so, canwe order 36 inches intwo or 3 smaller
lengthsinstead of the one big lengthin a way which makes it easy to string
them together? (36" which is too long for the glareshield of an RV8 in my
opinion - fine for a side by side).
Thanks,
lucky
-------------- Original message --------------
-- AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <STEIN@STEINAIR.COM>
Hi Guys,
I'm not out stumping here, but just a quick note to let everyone know that I
now have the Elecroluminescent light strips in stock. These are 1" x 36"
flatlite EL strips in the natural 'blue/green' color, that can be trimmed to
a shorter length if you desire. The light draws very little current, and
comes with a nice smal 1" square 12VDC inverter. This light can be dimmed
using your regular dimmer as well.
Just an FYI, and my apologies in advance for the intrusion. There were just
a LOT of people that wanted to know when we finally got these things in
stock.
Cheers,
Stein Bruch
RV6's, Minneapolis
Do Not Archive
http://www.steinair.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | DOGS and LIGHTBULBS |
tiger96l@cox.net
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: RV4WGH@aol.com
From: T18WGH@aol.com
Subject: DOGS and LIGHTBULBS
Smiley1255@aol.com, DGH1951@aol.com, huntr@ix.netcom.com,
gaelic1@earthlink.com, bob.murphy@insightbb.com, gdsieg@insightbb.com,
mrjsmith@tampabay.rr.com, Triggins39@aol.com, iflyasonex@msn.com
-------------------------------1112886717
Subject: DOGS and LIGHTBULBS
"How Many Dogs Does It Take to Change A Light Bulb?"
Golden Retriever: The sun is shining, the day is young, we've got our
whole lives ahead of us, and you're inside worrying about a stupid
burned out bulb?
Border Collie: Just one. And then I'll replace any wiring that's not up
to code.
Dachshund: You know I can't reach that stupid lamp!
Rottweiler: Make me.
Boxer: Who cares? I can still play with my squeaky toys in the dark.
Lab: Oh, me, me!!!!! Pleeeeeeeeeze let me change the light bulb! Can I?
CanI? Huh? Huh? Huh? Can I? Pleeeeeeeeeze, please, please, please!
German Shepherd: I'll change it as soon as I've led these people from
the dark, check to make sure I haven't missed any, and make just one
more perimeter patrol to see that no one has tried to take advantage of the
situation.
Jack Russell Terrier: I'll just pop it in while I'm bouncing off the
walls and furniture.
Old English Sheep Dog: Light bulb? I'm sorry, but I don't see a light bulb!
Cocker Spaniel: Why change it? I can still pee on the carpet in the dark.
Pointer: I see it, there it is, there it is, right there.....
Greyhound: It isn't moving. Who cares?
Australian Shepherd: First, I'll put all the light bulbs in a little
circle...
Poodle: I'll just blow in the Border Collie's ear and he'll do it. By the
time he finishes rewiring the house, my nails will be dry.
"Dogs do not change light bulbs. People change light bulbs. So, the
real question is: How long will it be before I can expect some light, some
dinner, and a massage?"
Chihuahua: Yo quiero Taco Bulb.
-------------------------------1112886717
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<BODY idrole_body style"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20Arial"
bottomMargin7 leftMargin7 topMargin7 rightMargin7><FONT idrole_document
faceArial color#000000 size2>
Subject:DOGS and LIGHTBULBS
"How Many Dogs Does It Take to
Change A Light Bulb?"
Golden Retriever: The sun is shining, the day
is young, we've got our
whole lives ahead of us, and you're inside worrying
about a stupid
burned out bulb?
Border Collie: Just one. And then I'll replace=20any
wiring that's not up
to code.
Dachshund: You know I can't reach that
stupid lamp!
Rottweiler: Make me.
Boxer: Who cares? I can still
play with my squeaky toys in the dark.
Lab: Oh, me, me!!!!! Pleeeeeeeeeze
let me change the light bulb! Can I?
CanI? Huh? Huh? Huh? Can I?
Pleeeeeeeeeze, please, please, please!
German Shepherd: I'll change it as
soon as I've led these people from
the dark, check to make sure I haven't
missed any, and make just one
more perimeter patrol to see that no one has tried to take advantage of
the
situation.
Jack Russell Terrier: I'll just pop it in while I'm
bouncing off the
walls and furniture.
Old English Sheep Dog: Light
bulb? I'm sorry, but I don't see a light bulb!
Cocker Spaniel: Why change
it? I can still pee on the carpet in the dark.
Pointer: I see it, there
it is, there it is, right there.....
Greyhound: It isn't moving. Who
cares?
Australian Shepherd: First, I'll put all the light bulbs in a
little circle...
Poodle: I'll just blow in the Border Collie's ear and
he'll do it. By the
time he finishes rewiring the house, my nails will be
dry.
"Dogs do not change light bulbs. People change light bulbs. So,
the
real question is: How long will it be before I can expect some light,
some
dinner, and a massage?"
Chihuahua: Yo quiero Taco
Bulb.
-------------------------------1112886717--
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: flying unstalled at 0 airspeed |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Sletten" <marknlisa@hometel.com>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
> I'll contact you offline. I doubt others want to listen to basic
aerodynamics. Do Not Archive Stan
How condescending.
Mark & Lisa Sletten
Legacy FG N828LM
http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com
Do Not Archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | Michel MC-60 ILS/GPS Indicator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Sletten" <marknlisa@hometel.com>
Anybody have any experience with this indicator? Eastern Avionics
carries this item at a great price, but it seems like one of those "too
good to be true" things.
http://www.avionix.com/indicator.html
Mark & Lisa Sletten
Legacy FG N828LM
http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
All the Chryslers that I"ve owned or looked at closely had an external
voltage regulator (1963 through 1997). None of them had a true battery
temperature sensor although all the electronic regulators had a sensor
in the computer or in the vicinity of the battery that was called a batt
temp sensor. Ambient air temp perhaps - but not really battery
temperature. Even the standalone electronic regulators of the 70's
varied voltage with temperature. IMO these alternators were also all too
large and heavy for 99.9% of airplanes where I prefer the smallest
alternator that can do the job to minimise OV excursions and possibly
load dumps, not to mention weight.
I like the little 40amp ND units that are sold for small offroad
equipment ( not even large enough to be found on a car) although they
all seem to be internal VR! The Niagra Airparts unit looks like one of
those.
Ken
Robert McCallum wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
>
>Matt;
>
>It's a 1996 Dodge B2500 Wagon (full size window van with seats) Dual air
>conditioning, SLT luxury trim package, power everything, trailer towing
>package and heated rear window. Depending on the options, Chrysler
>installed either 81 A, 117 A, or 137 A alternators on these vehicles,
>which is why I mention the options above. According to the factory
>service manual, all of these alternators are a similar configuration and
>all are Denso brand. In further reading the shop manual it seems that
>there is a temperature sensor for the battery also connected to the
>engine control computer, so the voltage regulator may be fairly
>sophisticated, taking into account battery temperature to decide on what
>the correct charge voltage should be. I don't know if it bears any
>relevance but this is a Canadian built vehicle.
>
>Bob McC
>
>mprather wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: mprather <mprather@spro.net>
>>
>>This sounds like it might be THE alternator for electron hungry airplane
>>systems installations..
>>
>>What year is this vehicle?
>>
>>Thanks for sharing the info.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Matt-
>>VE N34RD, C150 N714BK
>>
>>
Message 7
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
Hello List,
Not sure if this is off-topic or not. I'm looking for info on how best to
NEATLY slant my GPS/Comm to my panel such that it is more easily viewed from
the pilot's seat. Any info or direction to a good source of info would be
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Grant
Message 8
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| Subject: | Light Weight Coaxial Cable |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
Bob/List,
A while back I paid Bob Knuckolls for some shielded wire with BNC connectors
on the end to use as ignition leads on my Lightspeed ignition. Is it
possible to use the same for antennas? Bob, would you be willing to sell me
some more?
Grant
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
Ken;
I was not advocating using this alternator in an aircraft. John was
concerned with rotational speed and I was merely demonstrating what
speeds are "normal" for some road vehicles. Matt then asked the
specifics of what alternator I was referring to, which resulted in the
details you are replying to. The temperature sensor cited is installed
through the base of the battery tray in contact with the battery case
and is referred to in the factory service manual as a "battery
temperature sensor". It is separate and distinct from the "ambient
temperature sensor" used for engine management. You are correct that
most Chrysler vehicles have historically used external regulators and,
yes, most regulators use some form of temperature compensation, but this
is the only one I've personally seen which actually measures battery
temperature. I whole heartedly agree that the smaller alternators are
probably much more suited to aircraft use and will probably use B&C's
offering when I get to that stage on my Falco.
Bob McC
Ken wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
>
>All the Chryslers that I"ve owned or looked at closely had an external
>voltage regulator (1963 through 1997). None of them had a true battery
>temperature sensor although all the electronic regulators had a sensor
>in the computer or in the vicinity of the battery that was called a batt
>temp sensor. Ambient air temp perhaps - but not really battery
>temperature. Even the standalone electronic regulators of the 70's
>varied voltage with temperature. IMO these alternators were also all too
>large and heavy for 99.9% of airplanes where I prefer the smallest
>alternator that can do the job to minimise OV excursions and possibly
>load dumps, not to mention weight.
>I like the little 40amp ND units that are sold for small offroad
>equipment ( not even large enough to be found on a car) although they
>all seem to be internal VR! The Niagra Airparts unit looks like one of
>those.
>Ken
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert McCallum <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
John;
Sorry, I wasn't trying to "catch you out", I was just wondering if the
concern that you and others have expressed with rotational speed is a
valid concern or is just a perceived problem without any basis in fact.
I don't know for sure if my example is typical, but I think the
observation you make below with respect to the relationship between
"rated" output vs speed, and consequently where the chart ends, might be
valid. If this is true, and based on the fact that aircraft engines are
relatively constant speed compared to road vehicles, then there may be
some validity in reducing wear by slowing the alternator to the speed
where rated output is achieved. As far as your original question about
replacement pulleys Google should reveal some sources. They are
manufactured by several race car suppliers to slow alternators on race
cars thus reducing HP requirements for driving them. I also find it
interesting, as do you, that no Max speed is given on the rating charts.
Bob McC
John Swartout wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout" <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
>
>Oops-- Sorry Bob, you caught me in an ASSumption. Since the alternator
>comes with an output graph which ends at 6000 rpm, I assumed that this
>is a reasonable limit which OEM wouldn't mess with. But I realize,
>since you brought me up short, that one can't assume anything. Maybe
>the graph ends at 6000 rpm because by then it has reached advertised
>capacity, and won't put out any more no matter how fast you turn it.
>Interesting that the very nice document that came with the alternator
>does not have a DO NOT EXCEED speed.
>
>
>I haven't any idea who wrote it, but my generic alternator bracket from
>Aircraft Spruce came with a sheet suggesting some automotive alternators
>that make reasonably good--and cheap, if you are daring enough to get
>them at a junkyard(@@)--airplane alternators. This anonymous writer said
>that some builders feel more comfortable using a larger pulley, or
>getting a smaller ring gear for their engine. An air pump pulley from a
>mid-70's Chevy Camaro, which is a deep-V 4" pulley which apparently
>requires some "slight modification," whatever that means, was suggested
>as a replacement for the alt pulley.
>
>
>Believe me, the term "experimental aviation" is appropriate. Once you
>leave the certified reservation, you are in the wilderness, and reliable
>guides are hard to find and hard to qualify. All information, opinions,
>and particularly testimony (which springs from authority, my college
>speech teacher told me)is welcome.
>
>
>John
>
>
>
Message 11
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timing question
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net> timing
question
>snipped
> I just tested a 17 a.h. battery that I've had laying around the
> shop for a number of years. I thought it was about 3 years old.
> Turns out to have a 1999 date code on it. Test results on this
> battery for a 4A load are shown at:
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/West_Mountain/Panasonic_1.pdf
snipped
Bob,
Could you please tell me what make & model the "blue - white LED light
mentioned in the link article above is? I'd like to purchase one, as I
could put it to good use.
Thanks
Charlie Kuss
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Balance, was: Balance, Was: |
Alternator help
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net> Alternator
help
At 07:27 PM 4/8/2005, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 04/08/2005 3:06:47 PM Central Standard Time,
>BobsV35B@aol.com writes:
>Having had a dynamic prop balance done I can tell you the results can be
>dramatic!
> >>>>
>Agreed! Just had mine done by Rodney Douglas at Douglas Aviation, Muhlenberg
>Co. KY (M21) and the results are worth every $$$.
>
>Mark Phillips - no commision, just a happy camper...
Mark
Perspiring minds want to know, exactly how many pennies did you have to
exchange for a balanced alternator rotor?
Charlie Kuss
Message 13
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
At 06:16 PM 4/8/2005, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
><frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Ok still can't find a standard ND alternator pulley (2 1/2) but I can
>find an aftermarket 3 1/4" pulley. At say 1000 RPM on a long IFR decent
>with everything running the alt will be turning at 2600RPM with this
>pulley.
>
>Is there a way to tell easily if this Toyota Camry will pump out enough
>amps at this speed?...Is there a chart somewhere that shows amps vs RPM
>for this unit??
>
>Thanks
>
>Frank
Frank,
Your alternator should be able to produce about 2/3s of rated output at
that speed. Unless your battery is totally junk, you should stay airborne
with everything on for quite some time. Do as Bob advocates and take
inventory of what your electrical loads are, during all flight regimes. My
instructors always told me "test, don't guess".
If you are unable to find the requested chart (I'd also like a copy), may
I suggest removing the alternator in question and taking it to your local
Pep Boys, AutoZone, Advance Auto or other reputable auto electric shop, to
check it's output at 2600 rpms?
Charlie Kuss
One repeatable test is worth a hundred expert opinions.
Message 14
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
At 11:13 PM 4/8/2005, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
><frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
>Notall alternators are created equal....I bought the ND Toyota Camry
>unit because it has a stella reputation...Not all of them do.
>
>Now can someone find me a pulley?...:)...My local junkyard has a pile of
>cores that I can search thru apparently...:)
>
>Frank
Frank,
Why not look to see if your junkyard has any old Hondas or Toyotas, say
1983 or earlier. The alternators on these vehicles will have the pulley you
lust after. :-) I was just going through my saved files on this subject and
came across this old post. It may help if others are also interested.
I am involved in the manufacturing of these pulleys. We can make them to
any diameter you want. To give you best price however, we need to make them
in lot sizes of 20 minimum.It's not just a matter of turning down a larger
one to make a smaller one, we use smaller bar stock to begin with. If you
are interested e mail me or call me at Alloy Cutting 1 (650) 363 1601...
Redwood City Calif . Markvn@aol.com
I hope this helps
Charlie Kuss
PS Send me a phone number (off list) and I'll gladly call you to offer more
help.
Message 15
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha"
> --> <tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
>
> Hello List,
>
> Not sure if this is off-topic or not. I'm looking for info
> on how best to
> NEATLY slant my GPS/Comm to my panel such that it is more
> easily viewed from
> the pilot's seat. Any info or direction to a good source of
> info would be
> greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Grant
Grant, consider putting the moving map directly in front of the pilot. I
put the 430 directly under the six-pack, and am very happy with that
location. See http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/panel.htm
Alex Peterson
RV6-A 608 hours
Maple Grove, MN
Message 16
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timing question
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
timing question
>
>Bob,
> Could you please tell me what make & model the "blue - white LED light
>mentioned in the link article above is? I'd like to purchase one, as I
>could put it to good use.
Every "white" LED lamp is not quite white. Try any of the
white LED flashlight products out there. My particular
favorite for carrying around in the nerd-pack is
this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16037&item=5182657480&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
Bob . . .
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Precise Aircraft Manuevering |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
Sorry guys. I didn't mean to stir up a firestorm. I'm already getting grief
about discussing this subject on the list. Notice I've changed the subject
title from "Flying unstalled at 0 airspeed." Everyone is focused on that title
when, in fact, what I'm talking about is knowing your airplane and flying it
to it's maximum potential.
Craig, you correctly pointed out that what I am talking about is zero, or
near zero, INDICATED airspeed. Most of us do not have a true airspeed indicator.
Many pilots have a hangup with not allowing indicated airspeed to be too
low. For the most part they are correct. However, just because your indicated
airspeed is low doesn't necessarily mean you will stall the wing. Stalling
depends on the wings angle of attack whereas indicated airspeed depends on
several factors, including calibration.
To discuss my return to landing techniques after engine failure will take too
much list space. Let me see if I can build a description and post it on my
web site. My only hesitation in doing so is that someone will try it without
properly preparing. Proper preparation includes studying your airframes V
speeds, turn rate at various bank angles, turn radius at various bank angles,
practicing at higher altitude with a safety observer, and then analyzing the
particular situation on each takeoff (ie., runway surface and length, density
altitude, wind speed/direction, and the pilots alertness and proficiency on that
particular day).
To answer your questions below:
ATP, CFI
I quit counting, but about 14k hours
About 10 pilots trained to PPL, one of which was my son - now flying F-15Cs
(not enough hours in the day to do more) (Also, I don't charge for instruction.
Students can't pay me enough to make it worthwhile so I do it free. For
example, one hour of airborne instruction requires 4 hours of my time. Driving
to and from airport, 1 hour prebrief and one hour debrief). I also trained
numerous pilots in the T-38, F-4, F-5, and F-16, in the classroom, briefing room,
and the cockpit. I've flown numerous civilian aircraft, except the one I'm
building - RV-8.
No video of the turnaround to landing. Maybe I should make one. The only
drawback is the damn lawyers. They would go nuts on a liability lawsuit. We're
all in the hunker down mode because of them. They believe there is no
personal responsibility, only victims.
Perhaps that is sufficient info on my qualifications.
Okay, to those who are going to flame me for a verbose, off subject post on
the list, save your effort. I'll flame myself for you and tell myself to stop
posting comments about flying airplanes on an airplane electrics internet
list. Flying airplanes is just too far off the subject and too few people are
interested. Still, just watch, there will be someone who feels obligated to
flame me. Flame away. : )
I'm happy to discuss offline. You can contact me at speedy11@aol.com.
Stan Sutterfield
Tampa
www.rv-8a.net
In a message dated 4/9/2005 3:00:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
Stan: before people start bickering about this information, let's get
some basics down:
What are you pilot certifications?
How many hours do you have?
Are you a flight instructor? If so, how many people have received
their PPL under your instruction?
Do you have a video of this turn-around maneuver upon power loss on
takeoff?
Craig Steffen
[I do not have a pilot's license, nor any formal education in
aeronautical engineering]
Message 18
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
>snipped
>I haven't any idea who wrote it, but my generic alternator bracket from
>Aircraft Spruce came with a sheet suggesting some automotive alternators
>that make reasonably good--and cheap, if you are daring enough to get
>them at a junkyard(@@)--airplane alternators. This anonymous writer said
>that some builders feel more comfortable using a larger pulley, or
>getting a smaller ring gear for their engine. An air pump pulley from a
>mid-70's Chevy Camaro, which is a deep-V 4" pulley which apparently
>requires some "slight modification," whatever that means, was suggested
>as a replacement for the alt pulley.
>
>
>Believe me, the term "experimental aviation" is appropriate. Once you
>leave the certified reservation, you are in the wilderness, and reliable
>guides are hard to find and hard to qualify. All information, opinions,
>and particularly testimony (which springs from authority, my college
>speech teacher told me)is welcome.
>
>
>John
John & listers,
May I suggest forgetting about using the pulley from a GM "smog pump".
Local RV-4 builder Jody Edwards tried this, with less than (long term)
successful results. The modification will require access to a lathe to
"accurately" drill a center hole to mount this pulley. The stock mounting
is 3 evenly spaced bolts to a flange on the smog pump. There is no "center
hole" on this pulley. These 4" pulleys are stamped sheet steel and not
particularly sturdy.
Just my opinion (and worth what you paid for it), but I think you'd be
better off obtaining a 2 3/4" V belt pulley off of an older junkyard ND
alternator, OR purchasing one of the over sized, after market aluminum pulleys.
Charlie Kuss
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Light Weight Coaxial Cable |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:00 AM 4/9/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tinne maha" <tinnemaha@hotmail.com>
>
>Bob/List,
>
>A while back I paid Bob Knuckolls for some shielded wire with BNC connectors
>on the end to use as ignition leads on my Lightspeed ignition. Is it
>possible to use the same for antennas? Bob, would you be willing to sell me
>some more?
Antennas should be wired with COAXIAL feedline characterized
for performance at high frequencies where your radios operate.
Shielded wire is NOT so characterized and except for VERY short
feedlines (inches) will produce variable and degraded performance.
I don't recall the application for installing BNC connectors on
shielded wire except perhaps for coax replacement on the Lightspeed
system. This is not (in spite of Klaus' protestations) a critical
fast rise-time (read high frequency) application. I got a big nastygram
from Klaus over that one . . . after reading the rationale of the
engineer who designed his system, I decided that spending any effort on
it had an exceedingly low return on investment of $time$.
If you're wanting to wire antennas, please use coaxial cable
designed for that purpose. There are some very small coaxial cables
but their losses are higher than the commonly used RG400/142/58
styles in common useage.
Bob . . .
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: CBA II Good news and bad news |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:45 AM 4/9/2005 +0200, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee
><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
>Hi all,
>
> > Opened the "smoked" CBA III . . . here's a picture of
> > the internals.
> >
> >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/CBA2_2.jpg
> >
> > Turns out that the little guy in the center is an
> > International Rectifier IRL2910. Ratings for this
> > device can be found at:
> >
> >http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irl2910.pdf
> >
> > This device is NOT capable of performing under
> > the range of test conditions advertised for the
> > CBA II. I am completely mystified as to the selection
> > of this part when there are so many others offered by
> > International Rectifier and others that would do the job.
> >
> >
>Rats ! I had hopes you could just have had a strike of bad luck. 4 amps
>instead of the 40 advertised, and 48-50 watts instead of 100 seems way
>below expectation. Il opened my unit and it has the same p/n and the
>same rectifier.
The 'rectifier' is a MOSFET and as near as I can tell, operates
in a pure linear energy dissipation mode. There's a fat, SMT
resistor on the board which appears to be sorta cooled by
sandwiching between the board and heatsink . . . but I'm thinking
this is the current sense shunt for the data acquisition system.
This "misapplication" is a common error seen many times over
the past 40 years. There are characteristics of the transistor
that folks latch onto like max current (ID=55A), max power
dissipation (Pd=200W), and in the case of transistors used as
switches - on resistance (RdsON=0.026 ohms) and declare, "Wow,
this one will do the job nicely". Problem is that ALL of those
characteristics are not applicable at all four corners of the
operating envelope. There's an extremely important characteristic
called thermal resistance. There are two that are relatively fixed:
Junction to Case (theta-JC) and case to heatsink (theta-CH).
These two values set your ability to get heat from inside the
transistor to the heatsink where it can be dealt with. I've
seen transistors fail on WATER COOLED heatsinks because the designer
did not adequately manage his thermal resistance requirements/
limitations.
>I'll perform my first experiment this afternoon with one of my 7.5 Ah
>Hawker SBS8. I'll start with 2 amps. I'll take some photos of the test
>setup before and after, just in case...
>I hope they rapidly sort out the problem, because this small device
>seems very promising, and the software is expertly crafted.
>Bob, thanks for sharing the info,
My pleasure. I've not waited to hear from these guys. I'm
modifying mine to run a separate, much fatter MOS-FET on
an external heatsink. I'd like to separate the heat and
transistor selection issued from other features of the product.
If this experiment is successful, I'll be able to recommend
things they can do to bring their device up to advertised
specifications and at least, be able to use my cobbled up
unit for doing useful measurements.
Bob . . .
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:41 AM 4/8/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
>
>
>In a message dated 4/8/2005 10:36:28 A.M. Central Standard Time,
>emjones@charter.net writes:
>
>If I were selling alternators I think I would start with ones that didn't
>need balancing. Am I making too much sense?
Degrees of balance are exactly that . . . DEGREES. The issue
that drove B&C to balance all products was the perception
about 15 years ago that the largest threat to bearing life
was not gross speed but vibration which goes up with the
square of speed. So, Bill's decision to do the best he knows
how to do in fabrication and delivery of products bearing
his label called for running every alternator over the balancing
machine.
Is there hard data to support the value of this activity? No.
The research project to confirm or deny the value was too
costly in $time$ for a small operation like B&C to conduct . . .
particularly in light of the relatively small production
volumes.
It would be interesting to see how much metal is removed from
the average brand-new ND rotor to bring it inside his production
tolerances but that would also be anecdotal information. It's
certainly true that many airplanes are flying with stock ND
and other brands of alternators. Some choose to band-aid their
project with the best we know how to do from B&C or slow the
critter down with a larger pulley. There are trade-offs driven
buy either decision.
Bottom line is that there are hard no data to support the value
of doing either. Anecdotal data from the B&C experience suggests
that the totality of operations they conduct on their products
is not a bad thing to do. Return rate on the FLEET of shipments
for over 10 years has been under 1% and most of that for repairs
of user induced damage.
Do whatever makes you feel good . . . but keep in mind that
your $time$ has some value toward the ultimate cost of producing
your finished airplane. Every second spent driving a rivet is
immediate value received. Every second spent trying to find
a lower cost way of installing an alternator takes away from
those seconds that drive rivets and ADDS to the cost of your
project in ways that are not immediately obvious. Several writers
have suggested that OBAM projects are not at all cost effective.
Many builders would have spent less overall $time$ acquiring an
airplane by getting a second job and paying for someone else's
project with the proceeds.
So, if you're enjoying this conversation and find value in
acquiring the knowledge from which good decisions can be made
in the selection, acquisition and application of your alternator,
great. That's what the list is all about. But take care lest an
impression that you're saving any $time$ by doing so may be
in error.
Bob . . .
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Nuckoll's Paper on Electrical System |
Reliability
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
Reliability
At 09:12 PM 4/8/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley"
><mcculleyja@starpower.net>
>
>Bob,
>
>Your referenced paper is excellent on all counts and clearly spells out
>the logic you have long advocated.
>
>You might want to note that Figure 17-7 (referenced on page 17-12,
>second paragraph)is missing. It appears that the referenced figure
>should be the one shown as Figure 17-8. Changing the existing figure
>17-8 to 17-7 would appear to fix this.
>
>In Figure 17-1, shouldn't the "F" and "B" markings at the Alternator
>symbol be swapped?
>There are also a few scattered editorial/typo comments I can offer
>"off-list" if you let me know whether you are interested. Please
>understand none of my comments are in any way meant to be criticism.
There's a difference between critical whiners and critical
reviewers.
I'd be VERY pleased to get marked up pages from you or anyone
else who wants to participate in evolution of the 'Connection.
This isn't MY book, it's OUR book. I don't know what to write
about without communication from those who read it. I've got
several packages of mark-ups from the field on older chapters
that will be incorporated in due course. Thank you so much for
the offer.
>I stand in awe of the wealth and substance of material you continuously
>generate on this list. I only wonder if you ever sleep!!
Shucks, when you get to be a gray-haired ol' dog, 4-5 hours
a night suffices . . . no?
Bob . . .
Message 23
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| Subject: | Prop Balance, was: Balance, Was: Alternator help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
150 bucks...worth every pennie
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Charlie Kuss
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Prop Balance, was: Balance, Was:
Alternator help
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss
--> <chaztuna@adelphia.net> Alternator help
At 07:27 PM 4/8/2005, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
>In a message dated 04/08/2005 3:06:47 PM Central Standard Time,
>BobsV35B@aol.com writes:
>Having had a dynamic prop balance done I can tell you the results can
>be dramatic!
> >>>>
>Agreed! Just had mine done by Rodney Douglas at Douglas Aviation,
>Muhlenberg Co. KY (M21) and the results are worth every $$$.
>
>Mark Phillips - no commision, just a happy camper...
Mark
Perspiring minds want to know, exactly how many pennies did you have
to exchange for a balanced alternator rotor?
Charlie Kuss
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Nuckoll's Paper on Electrical System Reliability |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley" <mcculleyja@starpower.net>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<b.nuckolls@cox.net> Reliability
Shucks, when you get to be a gray-haired ol' dog, 4-5 hours
> a night suffices . . . no?
>
> Bob . . .
NO! Like I thought--you are a better man than I am.
Perhaps the most efficient way to send my other offerings would be by
fax of the marked-up document. I don't have a scanner. If you have a
fax number, let me know.
Jim McCulley
Message 25
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| Subject: | Emag/mag timing question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:44 PM 4/5/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" <gwbraly@gami.com>
>
>
>Why
> not two electronic ignitions? The cost savings in spark plugs alone
> is pretty attractive.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>Bob, Why do you think that you get better spark plug life from an
>electronic system than you do from a magneto fired spark ?
If you have the voltage to jump the gap in spite of well rounded
edges, then spark plug life can be loosely deemed "enhanced". The
more proper explanation might be, "electronic ignitions have
a capability to ignite a mixture in spite of plugs worn far
beyond limits that a magneto would fire. Further, substituting
automotive plugs is a distinct savings over aircraft plugs even
if they both had the same service life."
I have my Safari tuned every 40-50,000 miles. I'm amazed at the
condition of the plugs removed. The car wasn't running bad. The
mileage wasn't atypical. My ol' chevy-6 would have been limping
into the shop with those plugs if it ran at all.
Bob . . .
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Two independent systems |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> >Is there any possibility that Raytheon has documentation that would tell us
> >how the first 18s were set up?
>
> I've asked for weirder stuff and got answers. I'll ask tomorrow.
> I'd really like to see the wiring diagrams for the first Bonanzas
> too.
>
> Bob . . .
The documentation exists but it's in the salt mines at Hutchinson. Too
bad nobody microfilmed that stuff before it got stored.
Bob . . .
Message 27
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul McAllister" <paul.mcallister@qia.net>
Hi all,
I am having intermittent problems with my electric trim. Sometimes when I need
to slow and trim the aircraft for landing the trim motor won't actuate. I initially
suspected the down trim button, but then I have it not wanting to respond
to an "UP" button press as well.
So far I haven't been able to duplicate the problem when the aircraft is on the
ground. I'd be interested in anyone's ideas for trouble shooting. I have a 4
way trim switch with a Ray Allen relay deck driving an older MAC servo unit.
Thanks, Paul
Message 28
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul <pwilson@climber.org>
Interesting. I did a google search for the CBA II and found several people who
sell it.
I wonder if powerwerx.com is the source. I don't think West Mountain Radio has
any thing to do with the design or build of the product???
Mountain West Radio $99.95, Power werx $94.95
The products appear to be identical.
Does the actual product say who makes it?
Paul Wilson
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: EL Panel Lights |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Stein -
You originally said that you had a 1.5" x 36" strip installed. Why the
change to only 1" width? I have two .5" x 48" and it does not seem that
they will be bright enough to illuminate the whole panel - especially the
switches on the lower part of the panel where it is most needed.
Could one do a special order?
Thanks.
John
> I now have the Elecroluminescent light strips in stock. These are 1" x
> 36"
> flatlite EL strips in the natural 'blue/green' color, that can be
> trimmed to
> a shorter length if you desire. The light draws very little current, and
> comes with a nice smal 1" square 12VDC inverter. This light can be
> dimmed using your regular dimmer as well.
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Precise Aircraft Manuevering |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com
Stan-
(reciting from you post below)
>To discuss my return to landing techniques after engine failure will take
too
>much list space. Let me see if I can build a description and post it on my
>web site.
Please do. Please give me a pointer to the URL, I am cincerely interested.
>My only hesitation in doing so is that someone will try it without
>properly preparing.
What's the problem? Oh, yeah, we live in the land of 300 M people and 1 B
lawyers :)
You can simply say: this is what I did, these are the conditions under
which I did it; your mealeage may vary; and you may break your neck, if you
try it (or bite the dust).
>The only drawback is the damn lawyers. They would go nuts on a liability
lawsuit.
>We're all in the hunker down mode because of them.
You got that right. But it depends on the response. I aint' in no hunker
down mode, not my nature. I just had a case where such a nut (lawyer)
decided to bring up a suit, quite a serious one. He quickly curled up and
retracted his tail and withdrew the lawsuit with prejudice under
circumstances I don't care to share. What I am saying is that good, honest,
fearless fighters still got a chance. I'd appreciate if you share your
experience with me. Want a waiver of liability? - just send me the damn
paper to sign. You can contact me off the list with the URL.
Can I pay you a visit if/when I come/fly down there?
Rumen
do not archive
_____________________Original message __________________________
(received from Speedy11@aol.com; Date: 11:51 AM 4/9/2005
EDT)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
Sorry guys. I didn't mean to stir up a firestorm. I'm already getting grief
about discussing this subject on the list. Notice I've changed the subject
title from "Flying unstalled at 0 airspeed." Everyone is focused on that
title
when, in fact, what I'm talking about is knowing your airplane and flying it
to it's maximum potential.
Craig, you correctly pointed out that what I am talking about is zero, or
near zero, INDICATED airspeed. Most of us do not have a true airspeed
indicator.
Many pilots have a hangup with not allowing indicated airspeed to be too
low. For the most part they are correct. However, just because your
indicated
airspeed is low doesn't necessarily mean you will stall the wing. Stalling
depends on the wings angle of attack whereas indicated airspeed depends on
several factors, including calibration.
To discuss my return to landing techniques after engine failure will take too
much list space. Let me see if I can build a description and post it on my
web site. My only hesitation in doing so is that someone will try it without
properly preparing. Proper preparation includes studying your airframes V
speeds, turn rate at various bank angles, turn radius at various bank angles,
practicing at higher altitude with a safety observer, and then analyzing the
particular situation on each takeoff (ie., runway surface and length, density
altitude, wind speed/direction, and the pilots alertness and proficiency on
that
particular day).
To answer your questions below:
ATP, CFI
I quit counting, but about 14k hours
About 10 pilots trained to PPL, one of which was my son - now flying F-15Cs
(not enough hours in the day to do more) (Also, I don't charge for
instruction.
Students can't pay me enough to make it worthwhile so I do it free. For
example, one hour of airborne instruction requires 4 hours of my time.
Driving
to and from airport, 1 hour prebrief and one hour debrief). I also trained
numerous pilots in the T-38, F-4, F-5, and F-16, in the classroom, briefing
room,
and the cockpit. I've flown numerous civilian aircraft, except the one I'm
building - RV-8.
No video of the turnaround to landing. Maybe I should make one. The only
drawback is the damn lawyers. They would go nuts on a liability lawsuit.
We're
all in the hunker down mode because of them. They believe there is no
personal responsibility, only victims.
Perhaps that is sufficient info on my qualifications.
Okay, to those who are going to flame me for a verbose, off subject post on
the list, save your effort. I'll flame myself for you and tell myself to
stop
posting comments about flying airplanes on an airplane electrics internet
list. Flying airplanes is just too far off the subject and too few people
are
interested. Still, just watch, there will be someone who feels obligated to
flame me. Flame away. : )
I'm happy to discuss offline. You can contact me at speedy11@aol.com.
Stan Sutterfield
Tampa
www.rv-8a.net
In a message dated 4/9/2005 3:00:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
Stan: before people start bickering about this information, let's get
some basics down:
What are you pilot certifications?
How many hours do you have?
Are you a flight instructor? If so, how many people have received
their PPL under your instruction?
Do you have a video of this turn-around maneuver upon power loss on
takeoff?
Craig Steffen
[I do not have a pilot's license, nor any formal education in
aeronautical engineering]
Message 31
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 4/9/2005 8:57:26 A.M. Central Standard Time,
tinnemaha@hotmail.com writes:
Hello List,
Not sure if this is off-topic or not. I'm looking for info on how best to
NEATLY slant my GPS/Comm to my panel such that it is more easily viewed from
the pilot's seat. Any info or direction to a good source of info would be
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Grant
Good Afternoon Grant,
Radio Rax makes a set of extruded rails for a Beechcraft Baron that will set
your radios at the same angle that Beech used in their right side radio
stack. Nice units, but not cheap!
_www.radiorax.com_ (http://www.radiorax.com)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Re: Precise Aircraft Manuevering |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Larkin" <mlas@cox.net>
From the movie Wind, "Some times you have to play the percentages." I
have been flying for over twenty-five years in airplanes, helicopters,
gliders, ultra lights, military import jets, turboprop airliners, jet
airliners and home built airplanes. More people die trying to make it
back to the airport when an engine quits then flying it strait ahead and
landing (crashing under control). It is my opinion that unless you
believe without a doubt you can safely turn around (at that particular
point in time) you should land under control wing level strait ahead. I
have always used what I learned when flying gliders, figuring out a
minimum altitude I can safely and easily turn around and make the
airport. There are many-documented fatal accidents of pilots trying to
make it back to the field and crashing out of control. Many of the
"turn around" accidents were performed by very experienced pilots with
many hours in type and in a few cases the pilots were test pilots.
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Speedy11@aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Precise Aircraft Manuevering
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
Sorry guys. I didn't mean to stir up a firestorm. I'm already getting
grief
about discussing this subject on the list. Notice I've changed the
subject
title from "Flying unstalled at 0 airspeed." Everyone is focused on
that title
when, in fact, what I'm talking about is knowing your airplane and
flying it
to it's maximum potential.
Craig, you correctly pointed out that what I am talking about is zero,
or
near zero, INDICATED airspeed. Most of us do not have a true airspeed
indicator.
Many pilots have a hangup with not allowing indicated airspeed to be
too
low. For the most part they are correct. However, just because your
indicated
airspeed is low doesn't necessarily mean you will stall the wing.
Stalling
depends on the wings angle of attack whereas indicated airspeed depends
on
several factors, including calibration.
To discuss my return to landing techniques after engine failure will
take too
much list space. Let me see if I can build a description and post it on
my
web site. My only hesitation in doing so is that someone will try it
without
properly preparing. Proper preparation includes studying your airframes
V
speeds, turn rate at various bank angles, turn radius at various bank
angles,
practicing at higher altitude with a safety observer, and then analyzing
the
particular situation on each takeoff (ie., runway surface and length,
density
altitude, wind speed/direction, and the pilots alertness and proficiency
on that
particular day).
To answer your questions below:
ATP, CFI
I quit counting, but about 14k hours
About 10 pilots trained to PPL, one of which was my son - now flying
F-15Cs
(not enough hours in the day to do more) (Also, I don't charge for
instruction.
Students can't pay me enough to make it worthwhile so I do it free.
For
example, one hour of airborne instruction requires 4 hours of my time.
Driving
to and from airport, 1 hour prebrief and one hour debrief). I also
trained
numerous pilots in the T-38, F-4, F-5, and F-16, in the classroom,
briefing room,
and the cockpit. I've flown numerous civilian aircraft, except the one
I'm
building - RV-8.
No video of the turnaround to landing. Maybe I should make one. The
only
drawback is the damn lawyers. They would go nuts on a liability
lawsuit. We're
all in the hunker down mode because of them. They believe there is no
personal responsibility, only victims.
Perhaps that is sufficient info on my qualifications.
Okay, to those who are going to flame me for a verbose, off subject post
on
the list, save your effort. I'll flame myself for you and tell myself
to stop
posting comments about flying airplanes on an airplane electrics
internet
list. Flying airplanes is just too far off the subject and too few
people are
interested. Still, just watch, there will be someone who feels
obligated to
flame me. Flame away. : )
I'm happy to discuss offline. You can contact me at speedy11@aol.com.
Stan Sutterfield
Tampa
www.rv-8a.net
In a message dated 4/9/2005 3:00:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
Stan: before people start bickering about this information, let's get
some basics down:
What are you pilot certifications?
How many hours do you have?
Are you a flight instructor? If so, how many people have received
their PPL under your instruction?
Do you have a video of this turn-around maneuver upon power loss on
takeoff?
Craig Steffen
[I do not have a pilot's license, nor any formal education in
aeronautical engineering]
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
--
Message 33
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout" <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
All the give-and-take on this subject has been very useful and has
modified my plans. Considering that my alternator doesn't produce power
til it turns 1200 rpm, and it would be nice to start charging the
battery as soon as the engine is running (idling) --and with electronic
ignition, idle might be pretty slow--I'll opt for the 3.25" pulley
instead of the 5". That should keep the top end down around 7500, but
still produce 18 amps or so at idle. I agree with Charlie Kuss--why
spend the money to get the rotor balanced? If the alternator craps out,
I'll replace it and swap out the pulley & not have to balance another
alternator. If I had absolute faith in the main alternator, I wouldn't
be installing the SD-8 as a back-up. But the fact that the SD-8 doesn't
start producing power til about 1500 engine rpm, I'm also thinking of
putting in a little battery in the glove compartment or someplace,
totally isolated from the airplane except that I could plug it in to a
jack on the panel to provide emergency power for P-mags, GRT EIS and
Dynon EFIS. Charging would come from a solar panel on the glarescreen.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert McCallum
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator help
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert McCallum
<robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
John;
Sorry, I wasn't trying to "catch you out", I was just wondering if the
concern that you and others have expressed with rotational speed is a
valid concern or is just a perceived problem without any basis in fact.
I don't know for sure if my example is typical, but I think the
observation you make below with respect to the relationship between
"rated" output vs speed, and consequently where the chart ends, might be
valid. If this is true, and based on the fact that aircraft engines are
relatively constant speed compared to road vehicles, then there may be
some validity in reducing wear by slowing the alternator to the speed
where rated output is achieved. As far as your original question about
replacement pulleys Google should reveal some sources. They are
manufactured by several race car suppliers to slow alternators on race
cars thus reducing HP requirements for driving them. I also find it
interesting, as do you, that no Max speed is given on the rating charts.
Bob McC
John Swartout wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout"
<jgswartout@earthlink.net>
>
>Oops-- Sorry Bob, you caught me in an ASSumption. Since the
alternator
>comes with an output graph which ends at 6000 rpm, I assumed that this
>is a reasonable limit which OEM wouldn't mess with. But I realize,
>since you brought me up short, that one can't assume anything. Maybe
>the graph ends at 6000 rpm because by then it has reached advertised
>capacity, and won't put out any more no matter how fast you turn it.
>Interesting that the very nice document that came with the alternator
>does not have a DO NOT EXCEED speed.
>
>
>I haven't any idea who wrote it, but my generic alternator bracket from
>Aircraft Spruce came with a sheet suggesting some automotive
alternators
>that make reasonably good--and cheap, if you are daring enough to get
>them at a junkyard(@@)--airplane alternators. This anonymous writer
said
>that some builders feel more comfortable using a larger pulley, or
>getting a smaller ring gear for their engine. An air pump pulley from a
>mid-70's Chevy Camaro, which is a deep-V 4" pulley which apparently
>requires some "slight modification," whatever that means, was suggested
>as a replacement for the alt pulley.
>
>
>Believe me, the term "experimental aviation" is appropriate. Once you
>leave the certified reservation, you are in the wilderness, and
reliable
>guides are hard to find and hard to qualify. All information,
opinions,
>and particularly testimony (which springs from authority, my college
>speech teacher told me)is welcome.
>
>
>John
>
>
>
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: Two independent systems |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 4/9/2005 1:29:54 P.M. Central Standard Time,
b.nuckolls@cox.net writes:
The documentation exists but it's in the salt mines at Hutchinson. Too
bad nobody microfilmed that stuff before it got stored.
Bob . . .
Thanks Bob,
I will see if the Tullahoma based Beechcraft museum wants to take on that
task. Never know, it might be helpful!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 35
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|
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Socan Ihave your 2 1/2 pulley?...:)
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Swartout
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Alternator help
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout"
--> <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
All the give-and-take on this subject has been very useful and has
modified my plans. Considering that my alternator doesn't produce power
til it turns 1200 rpm, and it would be nice to start charging the
battery as soon as the engine is running (idling) --and with electronic
ignition, idle might be pretty slow--I'll opt for the 3.25" pulley
instead of the 5". That should keep the top end down around 7500, but
still produce 18 amps or so at idle. I agree with Charlie Kuss--why
spend the money to get the rotor balanced? If the alternator craps out,
I'll replace it and swap out the pulley & not have to balance another
alternator. If I had absolute faith in the main alternator, I wouldn't
be installing the SD-8 as a back-up. But the fact that the SD-8 doesn't
start producing power til about 1500 engine rpm, I'm also thinking of
putting in a little battery in the glove compartment or someplace,
totally isolated from the airplane except that I could plug it in to a
jack on the panel to provide emergency power for P-mags, GRT EIS and
Dynon EFIS. Charging would come from a solar panel on the glarescreen.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert McCallum
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator help
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert McCallum
<robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
John;
Sorry, I wasn't trying to "catch you out", I was just wondering if the
concern that you and others have expressed with rotational speed is a
valid concern or is just a perceived problem without any basis in fact.
I don't know for sure if my example is typical, but I think the
observation you make below with respect to the relationship between
"rated" output vs speed, and consequently where the chart ends, might be
valid. If this is true, and based on the fact that aircraft engines are
relatively constant speed compared to road vehicles, then there may be
some validity in reducing wear by slowing the alternator to the speed
where rated output is achieved. As far as your original question about
replacement pulleys Google should reveal some sources. They are
manufactured by several race car suppliers to slow alternators on race
cars thus reducing HP requirements for driving them. I also find it
interesting, as do you, that no Max speed is given on the rating charts.
Bob McC
John Swartout wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout"
<jgswartout@earthlink.net>
>
>Oops-- Sorry Bob, you caught me in an ASSumption. Since the
alternator
>comes with an output graph which ends at 6000 rpm, I assumed that this
>is a reasonable limit which OEM wouldn't mess with. But I realize,
>since you brought me up short, that one can't assume anything. Maybe
>the graph ends at 6000 rpm because by then it has reached advertised
>capacity, and won't put out any more no matter how fast you turn it.
>Interesting that the very nice document that came with the alternator
>does not have a DO NOT EXCEED speed.
>
>
>I haven't any idea who wrote it, but my generic alternator bracket from
>Aircraft Spruce came with a sheet suggesting some automotive
alternators
>that make reasonably good--and cheap, if you are daring enough to get
>them at a junkyard(@@)--airplane alternators. This anonymous writer
said
>that some builders feel more comfortable using a larger pulley, or
>getting a smaller ring gear for their engine. An air pump pulley from a
>mid-70's Chevy Camaro, which is a deep-V 4" pulley which apparently
>requires some "slight modification," whatever that means, was suggested
>as a replacement for the alt pulley.
>
>
>Believe me, the term "experimental aviation" is appropriate. Once you
>leave the certified reservation, you are in the wilderness, and
reliable
>guides are hard to find and hard to qualify. All information,
opinions,
>and particularly testimony (which springs from authority, my college
>speech teacher told me)is welcome.
>
>
>John
>
>
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Nuckoll's Paper on Electrical System |
Reliability
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
Reliability
At 02:17 PM 4/9/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley"
><mcculleyja@starpower.net>
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
><b.nuckolls@cox.net> Reliability
>
> Shucks, when you get to be a gray-haired ol' dog, 4-5 hours
> > a night suffices . . . no?
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>
>NO! Like I thought--you are a better man than I am.
>
>Perhaps the most efficient way to send my other offerings would be by
>fax of the marked-up document. I don't have a scanner. If you have a
>fax number, let me know.
How about snail mail? I don't have a fax machine. I got
tired of picking piles of paper spam off the floor so I went
to a computer based fax receiver that would store on hard drive.
After sorting through dozens of digital spam with nothing
of interest to read, I finally decided that return on investment
for owning a fax was nil to negative.
6936 Bainbridge, Wichita, Ks 67226-1008 works really good.
I'll work a trade that will make it worth your trouble.
Thanks!
Bob . . .
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: flying unstalled at 0 airspeed |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: j1j2h3@juno.com
The way to gauge it is to try it (at a safe altitude). Head into the
wind. Put your plane in the climb attitude you use for take off. Pull
your mixture to cut-off. Note the altitude when the engine quits.
Perform the maneuver you would make to return to the strip. Note how
much altitude you have lost. Be sure that you allow for your reaction
time if figuring what happened and what you are going to do about it.
Repeat with cross wind and various wind velocities.
You may also want to do this within gliding distance of the field in case
your engine wont restart.
Jim Hasper
Franklin, TN
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen"
<cjensen@dts9000.com>
(snip)
And, how is one to gauge what the appropriate minimum altitude is for a
particular
aircraft?
Message 38
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
I have a 1.5" strip in one plane and a 1" strip in the other. When flying
at night, I regularly dim both of them, as they are plenty bright in both.
I don't know all the technical "bits & bytes" about EL lighting, but I'm
fairly sure that 1" will put out more light than 2 individual .5" strips,
especially given the fact that most .5" strips that are sold on Ebay, Auto
Stores, etc.. are all fairly light weight consumer grade stuff.
I've used mine a lot, and it puts out way more light than I need when it's
dark, so I usually have it dimmed down. Regarding lighting of the switches,
I have colored switch boots on ALL my switches as follows: Power/Avionics
are RED, Fuel Boost & Primer are BLUE, Lights are YELLOW, Flaps are WHITE
and other miscellaneous stuff is either Green or Black. Couple that with
the fact that I fly my airplane regularly enough to know the switch order I
installed, along with decent panel lighting and I've never had an issue.
Before you decide you need more light, go into a pitch black room, sit for
about 15-30 minutes to let your eyes adjust, then turn the thing on! You'll
be surprised how much light there is! They may seem dim in a lit room, but
in the dark they are quite nice.
To me, the important things to light up at night are my Gyros and Flight
instruments that are not lit (AI, ASI, VSI, DG, T&B & ALT). Most of the
avionics stack is well lit anyway, and most of today's modern EFIS panels
really require very little "flood lighting" anyway. I don't do much
"switching" at night, other than fuel tanks...my lights (Nav/Strobe, etc..)
are already on, and I don't usually have a need to switch on/off my
mags/alternator/master and misc stuff once they are set. Incidentally, many
years ago some airlines during training required pilots to be able to put
their finger on certain switches while wearing a blidfold - the point being
that they should know their "switchology" well enough to find it at any
time.
Most of the panels we put together only have a few misc things that even
need to be lit outside their own internal lighting. This is usually a
compass and backup instruments if they don't have internal lighting.
Just my 2 cents...the EL stuff may not be for everyone, but I've yet to find
a better solution overall.
Cheers,
Stein.
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John
Schroeder
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EL Panel Lights
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder"
<jschroeder@perigee.net>
Stein -
You originally said that you had a 1.5" x 36" strip installed. Why the
change to only 1" width? I have two .5" x 48" and it does not seem that
they will be bright enough to illuminate the whole panel - especially the
switches on the lower part of the panel where it is most needed.
Could one do a special order?
Thanks.
John
> I now have the Elecroluminescent light strips in stock. These are 1" x
> 36"
> flatlite EL strips in the natural 'blue/green' color, that can be
> trimmed to
> a shorter length if you desire. The light draws very little current, and
> comes with a nice smal 1" square 12VDC inverter. This light can be
> dimmed using your regular dimmer as well.
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Precise Aircraft Manuevering |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "BUCK AND GLORIA BUCHANAN" <glastar@3rivers.net>
Well said Mike,
I've been flying for almost 40 years, after the AF most of it in crop
dusters. I just got my float rating this winter at Wiley's Seaplanes in
Lake Oswego OR. Dave Wiley is a glider pilot, balloon pilot, SES,
gyro-plane, MEL etc. etc. and a designated examiner in most of these. His
philosophy is the same as yours..............(and mine).
I'd like to hear from "Old Bob" on this subject.
Best...................Buck
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Larkin" <mlas@cox.net>
From the movie Wind, "Some times you have to play the percentages." I
have been flying for over twenty-five years in airplanes, helicopters,
gliders, ultra lights, military import jets, turboprop airliners, jet
airliners and home built airplanes. More people die trying to make it
back to the airport when an engine quits then flying it strait ahead and
landing (crashing under control). It is my opinion that unless you
believe without a doubt you can safely turn around (at that particular
point in time) you should land under control wing level strait ahead. I
have always used what I learned when flying gliders, figuring out a
minimum altitude I can safely and easily turn around and make the
airport. There are many-documented fatal accidents of pilots trying to
make it back to the field and crashing out of control. Many of the
"turn around" accidents were performed by very experienced pilots with
many hours in type and in a few cases the pilots were test pilots.
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Speedy11@aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Precise Aircraft Manuevering
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
Sorry guys. I didn't mean to stir up a firestorm. I'm already getting
grief
about discussing this subject on the list. Notice I've changed the
subject
title from "Flying unstalled at 0 airspeed." Everyone is focused on
that title
when, in fact, what I'm talking about is knowing your airplane and
flying it
to it's maximum potential.
Craig, you correctly pointed out that what I am talking about is zero,
or
near zero, INDICATED airspeed. Most of us do not have a true airspeed
indicator.
Many pilots have a hangup with not allowing indicated airspeed to be
too
low. For the most part they are correct. However, just because your
indicated
airspeed is low doesn't necessarily mean you will stall the wing.
Stalling
depends on the wings angle of attack whereas indicated airspeed depends
on
several factors, including calibration.
To discuss my return to landing techniques after engine failure will
take too
much list space. Let me see if I can build a description and post it on
my
web site. My only hesitation in doing so is that someone will try it
without
properly preparing. Proper preparation includes studying your airframes
V
speeds, turn rate at various bank angles, turn radius at various bank
angles,
practicing at higher altitude with a safety observer, and then analyzing
the
particular situation on each takeoff (ie., runway surface and length,
density
altitude, wind speed/direction, and the pilots alertness and proficiency
on that
particular day).
To answer your questions below:
ATP, CFI
I quit counting, but about 14k hours
About 10 pilots trained to PPL, one of which was my son - now flying
F-15Cs
(not enough hours in the day to do more) (Also, I don't charge for
instruction.
Students can't pay me enough to make it worthwhile so I do it free.
For
example, one hour of airborne instruction requires 4 hours of my time.
Driving
to and from airport, 1 hour prebrief and one hour debrief). I also
trained
numerous pilots in the T-38, F-4, F-5, and F-16, in the classroom,
briefing room,
and the cockpit. I've flown numerous civilian aircraft, except the one
I'm
building - RV-8.
No video of the turnaround to landing. Maybe I should make one. The
only
drawback is the damn lawyers. They would go nuts on a liability
lawsuit. We're
all in the hunker down mode because of them. They believe there is no
personal responsibility, only victims.
Perhaps that is sufficient info on my qualifications.
Okay, to those who are going to flame me for a verbose, off subject post
on
the list, save your effort. I'll flame myself for you and tell myself
to stop
posting comments about flying airplanes on an airplane electrics
internet
list. Flying airplanes is just too far off the subject and too few
people are
interested. Still, just watch, there will be someone who feels
obligated to
flame me. Flame away. : )
I'm happy to discuss offline. You can contact me at speedy11@aol.com.
Stan Sutterfield
Tampa
www.rv-8a.net
In a message dated 4/9/2005 3:00:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
Stan: before people start bickering about this information, let's get
some basics down:
What are you pilot certifications?
How many hours do you have?
Are you a flight instructor? If so, how many people have received
their PPL under your instruction?
Do you have a video of this turn-around maneuver upon power loss on
takeoff?
Craig Steffen
[I do not have a pilot's license, nor any formal education in
aeronautical engineering]
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
--
Message 40
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| Subject: | six pack spacing |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom Barter" <kesleyel@IowaTelecom.net>
As I begin to lay out the instrument panel on my Avid Magnum, I am looking for
some information or insight as to the closest practical spacing for the "six pack"
of 3-1/4" instruments. I would like to make the cluster as compact as reasonably
possible, and yet leave enough material between the the instruments to
assure adequate panel rigidity and space for the mounting screws. Any and all
input appreciated.
Tom Barter
Kesley, IA
Message 41
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| Subject: | Emag/mag timing question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" <gwbraly@gami.com>
The problem I see is that the higher voltage required to jump the ugly worn gap
- - is the same whether it is a magneto or an electronic system.
If the gap is large, the mag will build the voltage... easily.
The problem then is usually associated with arcing across the insulation.
I have one electronic ignition running on the test stand and you can see the spark
coming out of one ignition lead and jumping to a nearby piece of steel.
The plugs are brand new.
Regards, George
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag/mag timing question
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:44 PM 4/5/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" <gwbraly@gami.com>
>
>
>Why
> not two electronic ignitions? The cost savings in spark plugs alone
> is pretty attractive.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>Bob, Why do you think that you get better spark plug life from an
>electronic system than you do from a magneto fired spark ?
If you have the voltage to jump the gap in spite of well rounded
edges, then spark plug life can be loosely deemed "enhanced". The
more proper explanation might be, "electronic ignitions have
a capability to ignite a mixture in spite of plugs worn far
beyond limits that a magneto would fire. Further, substituting
automotive plugs is a distinct savings over aircraft plugs even
if they both had the same service life."
I have my Safari tuned every 40-50,000 miles. I'm amazed at the
condition of the plugs removed. The car wasn't running bad. The
mileage wasn't atypical. My ol' chevy-6 would have been limping
into the shop with those plugs if it ran at all.
Bob . . .
---
---
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Balance, was: Balance, Was: Alternator help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>>>>>>>>>
Hi Charlie- If you were interested in the prop job, is set me back twenty
thousand of them little buggers- shoulda seen Bobby Hester holding 'em all in his
lap since 125 lbs in the baggage compartment would have put us SERIOUSLY aft
CG.....
Still not sure about having the rotor on my B&C 40 balanced yet- they were
supposed to include that in the 260 pounds I paid for the thing...
8-) From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark do not archive
Message 43
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| Subject: | Alternator Speed |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
One thing I've been curious about is how much engine power is consumed by a
typical alternator and how much more power is required to turn one at, say,
4000 rpms vs 8000 rpms?
Also, I'm sure that the amount of current being produced as well as how much
air is being moved by cooling fans is parasitic at some level. Anyone seen
any numbers, or can this all be lumped into the "negligible" category?
Mark Phillips - do not archive
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Emag/mag timing question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John D. Heath" <Alto_Q@direcway.com>
George ,
Have you used any dielectric grease inside the Ignition wire boots ?
John D.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Braly" <gwbraly@gami.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag/mag timing question
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" <gwbraly@gami.com>
>
>
> The problem I see is that the higher voltage required to jump the ugly
> worn gap - - is the same whether it is a magneto or an electronic system.
>
> If the gap is large, the mag will build the voltage... easily.
>
> The problem then is usually associated with arcing across the insulation.
>
> I have one electronic ignition running on the test stand and you can see
> the spark coming out of one ignition lead and jumping to a nearby piece of
> steel.
>
> The plugs are brand new.
>
> Regards, George
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> L. Nuckolls, III
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Emag/mag timing question
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> At 09:44 PM 4/5/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" <gwbraly@gami.com>
>>
>>
>>Why
>> not two electronic ignitions? The cost savings in spark plugs alone
>> is pretty attractive.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>>Bob, Why do you think that you get better spark plug life from an
>>electronic system than you do from a magneto fired spark ?
>
> If you have the voltage to jump the gap in spite of well rounded
> edges, then spark plug life can be loosely deemed "enhanced". The
> more proper explanation might be, "electronic ignitions have
> a capability to ignite a mixture in spite of plugs worn far
> beyond limits that a magneto would fire. Further, substituting
> automotive plugs is a distinct savings over aircraft plugs even
> if they both had the same service life."
>
> I have my Safari tuned every 40-50,000 miles. I'm amazed at the
> condition of the plugs removed. The car wasn't running bad. The
> mileage wasn't atypical. My ol' chevy-6 would have been limping
> into the shop with those plugs if it ran at all.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> ---
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Speed |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
>One thing I've been curious about is how much engine power is consumed by a
>typical alternator and how much more power is required to turn one at, say,
>4000 rpms vs 8000 rpms?
>
>Also, I'm sure that the amount of current being produced as well as how much
>air is being moved by cooling fans is parasitic at some level. Anyone seen
>any numbers, or can this all be lumped into the "negligible" category?
>
>Mark Phillips - do not archive
>
1 HP = ~746 watts.
746 watts/14 volts = ~53 amps.
Taking a wild, pessimistic guess at 50% efficiency & adding in some
power for the fan, belts, etc, how about 3 hp at full load?
If the regulator is working the only additional power consumed at higher
rpm should be friction & fan losses.
Charlie
Message 46
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| Subject: | RE: Alternators on the AeroElectric List |
<002c01c53d77$ef5206a0$69318a45@cat1>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
At 10:49 PM 4/9/2005, you wrote:
>Thanks John, this site is fantastic!
>I did a search for Mitsubishi alternators that I have directions to for
>making externally regulated and came up with part # ALT 3056 a 75 amp unit
>for $139.99 NEW PRICE, not reman.
>
>Also, found a Nippondenso 70 amp NSA #Alt 5067 70 amp Toyoda for $137.79,
>again NEW PRICE
>
>And my favorite, for my Sebring......a 125 amp honker NSA #ALT 6090,
>EXTERNALLY regulated for $150.79
>
>All nice options.....but it appears one needs to change the pulley out. Then
>there is the matter of making a mount assuming Van's doesn't fit. Also, I'm
>not familiar with the NSA brand and can't say anything about their quality.
>
>What I really want is an externally regulated 60~75 amp, light weight
>Nippondenso unit.
>
>Marty
Marty,
If you want a 60 amp ND externally regulated alternator with a V belt
pulley, you can ask for one from a 1981-1983 (last years for external
regulators) Honda Accord or Toyota Camry. Be sure to specify WITH air
conditioning (otherwise you'll get a 40 amp unit) This will get you an
alternator that will work with no modifications, right out of the box.
The down side of this is: Where do you think all those cars are now?
Right, they are in the junk yard! How long do you suppose the parts stores
will continue to stock these units? (If you can find one in stock now??)
When my alternator releases it's magic smoke in Dubuque, Iowa on a Saturday
or Sunday afternoon, I want the parts man to hand me a replacement right
away. WHY? Because I don't care to spend 1 or 2 nights at the local motel
(plus FedEx overnight shipping charges) while I wait in a strange town for
a replacement. I prefer to use an alternator from a vehicle new enough that
I can get a replacement for it in 5-8 years. Just something else to
consider. Hey, if you don't travel cross country, it's not a big issue.
See, I've got this friend........ his name is Murphy. Maybe you know him? :-)
My current plan is to convert my internally regulated 60 amp ND for an
external regulator. However, Bob, Eric Jones & perhaps Paul M. will soon
make me change my plans.
Charlie Kuss
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Speed |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com" <n801bh@netzero.com>
One thing I've been curious about is how much engine power is consumed by a
typical alternator and how much more power is required to turn one at, say,
4000 rpms vs 8000 rpms?
Also, I'm sure that the amount of current being produced as well as how much
air is being moved by cooling fans is parasitic at some level. Anyone seen
any numbers, or can this all be lumped into the "negligible"
category?
Mark Phillips - do not archive
Hi Mark, back in my previous life I owned and ran a racing engine R&D company.
In 1988 I had contract to document HP losses due to components, ie: water pump,
power steering pump, alternators. On a 358 cu.in chevy, running at 8300 rpm
and the alt spinning 12,450 rpms we calculated a load of 38 amps. The draw was
for the Ign systems, front and rear brake blowers, rear end gear blower, drivers
suit cooling system, helmet rebreather and back then the in car camera the
network used our battery to run that too. The horsepower loss to generate 38
amps at 8300 engine rpm was 7.5. The water pump ate up 15 and the power steering
pump on the straight a ways used 5 and when loaded for the turns 13 HP. Keep
in mind that was 17 years ago. I bet the water pump has not changed much,power
steering pumps are more efficient, and alts are about the same. do not archive
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
Message 48
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| Subject: | Six Pack Spacing |
1.25 RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO Received: contains an IP address used for HELO
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: hebeard@comcast.net
For Tom Barter. Guru Tony Bingelis before his death recommended the minimum distance
between instrument centers for 3 1/8" instruments as 3 1/2".
Harley E.
<SCRIPT language=javascript>postamble();</SCRIPT>
For Tom Barter. Guru Tony Bingelis before his death recommended the minimum distance
between instrument centers for 3 1/8" instruments as 3 1/2".
Harley E.
Message 49
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| Subject: | Alternator Speed |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
So the torque required to drive the alt reduces with increasing RPM??
Maybe it does it has to be for your argument to be true but if the
torque is constant, the HP will increase with RPM as
HP=torque*speed.
Fans usually consume power at the rate of speed cubed...I.e double the
fan speed=9 times the power....Of course the cooling fan is likely to be
pretty small in terms of power consumption.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Charlie England
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Speed
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie England
--> <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
>One thing I've been curious about is how much engine power is consumed
>by a typical alternator and how much more power is required to turn one
>at, say, 4000 rpms vs 8000 rpms?
>
>Also, I'm sure that the amount of current being produced as well as how
>much air is being moved by cooling fans is parasitic at some level.
>Anyone seen any numbers, or can this all be lumped into the
"negligible" category?
>
>Mark Phillips - do not archive
>
1 HP = ~746 watts.
746 watts/14 volts = ~53 amps.
Taking a wild, pessimistic guess at 50% efficiency & adding in some
power for the fan, belts, etc, how about 3 hp at full load?
If the regulator is working the only additional power consumed at higher
rpm should be friction & fan losses.
Charlie
Message 50
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| Subject: | Molex Extraction Tool |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
All,
I bought the cheapo Molex extraction tool and, no surprise, it
doesn't work worth a damn. Does anyone have a recommendation for a good
one? Price no object at this point. I want it to work.
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
Message 51
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| Subject: | How to Wire an Aircraft |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
Pretty broad title, I know. However I'm discovering as I wire my simple
Kitfox that I really have no clue what I'm doing. Does anyone have a source
for the basics of how to wire an aircraft. I'm talking about how to
actually do the wiring, not how to do the design. I've got a pretty good
design, though I'm still unsure of the supports and things. I've read Bob's
book, and AC 43-13, but can't find hands-on knowledge on the best way to
actually do it. My questions run like:
1. Which end do I start with?
2. Do I bundle as I go? Or do I leave a rats nest and try to bundle it all
at the end?
3. Do I leave one end clear until I'm done bundling?
4. What type of connectors should I use where? Where do I find
waterproof/fireproof connectors for firewall forward and do I even need them?
You see what I mean. Any guidance would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
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