Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:33 AM - Re: Six Pack Spacing (BobsV35B@aol.com)
2. 03:18 AM - Re: Re: Precise Aircraft Manuevering (BobsV35B@aol.com)
3. 04:19 AM - Re: Precise Aircraft Manuevering (Speedy11@aol.com)
4. 04:36 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
5. 04:37 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
6. 05:11 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
7. 05:51 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
8. 06:22 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
9. 06:28 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
10. 06:41 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
11. 06:56 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
12. 06:56 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
13. 07:06 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
14. 07:21 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
15. 07:34 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
16. 07:39 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
17. 07:45 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
18. 07:58 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
19. 08:09 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
20. 08:26 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
21. 08:29 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
22. 08:37 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
23. 08:51 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
24. 10:04 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
25. 11:10 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
26. 11:21 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
27. 11:26 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
28. 11:30 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
29. 11:30 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
30. 11:38 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
31. 11:39 AM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
32. 01:22 PM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
33. 01:24 PM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
34. 01:40 PM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
35. 02:07 PM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
36. 02:12 PM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
37. 02:28 PM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
38. 03:56 PM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
39. 04:15 PM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
40. 04:24 PM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
41. 04:47 PM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
42. 04:48 PM - Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Walter Critchlow)
43. 05:04 PM - Re: Tailwind-List: Wally's return (james wickert)
44. 05:18 PM - Re: Tailwind-List: Wally's return? TEST (Jim Jewell)
45. 05:27 PM - Re: Tailwind-List: Wally's return (Larry McFarland)
46. 05:29 PM - Wally Messages Stopped! (Matt Dralle)
47. 05:35 PM - Re: Tailwind-List: Wally's return? TEST (John D. Heath)
48. 05:52 PM - Re: How to Wire an Aircraft (Larry McFarland)
49. 06:00 PM - Re: How to Wire an Aircraft (Bobby Hester)
50. 06:26 PM - Re: Six Pack Spacing (Dan Checkoway)
51. 06:46 PM - Re: EL Panel Lights (John W Livingston)
52. 06:53 PM - Re: Tailwind-List: Wally's return (rd2@evenlink.com)
53. 07:03 PM - Re: Tailwind-List: Wally's return? TEST (James E. Clark)
54. 07:24 PM - Re: How to Wire an Aircraft (Ken)
55. 07:29 PM - Re: Tailwind-List: Wally's return? TEST (John D. Heath)
56. 07:36 PM - Re: EL Panel Lights (Stein Bruch)
57. 07:36 PM - Re: Alternator Speed (Ken)
58. 07:39 PM - Printed circuit board question (Mark Hall)
59. 09:32 PM - Re: Emag/mag timing question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
60. 09:32 PM - Re: Alternator Speed (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
61. 09:32 PM - Re: Alternator Speed (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
62. 09:33 PM - Re: Molex Extraction Tool (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
63. 09:33 PM - Re: CBA II battery analyzer (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
64. 09:33 PM - Re: Making real world sense of the OVP thread (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
65. 09:33 PM - Re: Alternators (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
66. 10:01 PM - Re: Re: CBA II battery analyzer (DonVS)
67. 10:22 PM - Re: How to Wire an Aircraft (Jim Jewell)
68. 10:44 PM - Re: Re: CBA II battery analyzer (DonVS)
69. 11:37 PM - Re: Molex Extraction Tool (Guy Buchanan)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Six Pack Spacing |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 4/9/2005 11:40:24 P.M. Central Standard Time,
hebeard@comcast.net writes:
For Tom Barter. Guru Tony Bingelis before his death recommended the minimum
distance between instrument centers for 3 1/8" instruments as 3 1/2".
Harley E.
Good Morning Harley,
That is a reasonable ball park figure. Unfortunately, it won't work for all
instruments and it is wasteful for others.
As an example, Beechcraft regularly uses three and three eighths inch on
production airplanes for the older AN style instrument cases. A Century One
combination Roll Controller and Turn Coordinator measures a full three and one
half inches side to side and top to bottom.
Personally, when space is at a premium, I decide which instruments are to be
used, measure them accurately, (I have found that manufacturers dimensions
are often in error even when the dimensions are given in .001 increments) then
place the holes so that there will be a minimum of one sixteenth of an inch
between all instruments. When measuring, be sure to consider screw heads
that protrude beyond the case itself and light trays that may extend further
than the case.
Back in WW II, the military did have standard sizes that were closely
adhered to. That is not the case today.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Precise Aircraft Manuevering |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: BobsV35B@aol.com
In a message dated 4/9/2005 7:53:49 P.M. Central Standard Time,
glastar@3rivers.net writes:
I'd like to hear from "Old Bob" on this subject.
Best...................Buck
Good Morning Buck,
As long as you asked!
There is a gentleman named David Rodgers (sp?) who has a doctorate in
mathematics and teaches aerodynamics to the Naval Aviators at the US Naval Academy.
He also owns a Debonair which is based at an airport that has a runway
which departs over a body of water. He has developed a turn back scenario that
will allow him to get his Debonair back to the takeoff runway if the engine
should fail at an inopportune time.
Bobby Younkin takes off at airshows in his Twin Beech Model 18 and does a
beautiful aileron roll on takeoff.
I dare say that all of us could be taught to do an aileron roll on takeoff
and that all of us could be taught to make doctor Rodgers' turn back maneuver.
Is it advisable? That All Depends!
I try to teach my students something along that line. It can be done, but
the risk is generally not worth taking for most of us.
I have a strong interest in the turn back maneuver and I have done some
personal testing of the process.
Back in the "Olden Days", (spring of 1946 to be exact) I was student pilot
flying a side by side Taylorcraft when the engine quit on takeoff. I dutifully
dropped the nose, as I had been taught, and looked at a wooded area straight
ahead in an effort to find the softest spot to crash.
Something drew my attention to my left where I noted a few clearings and a
road or two. I made a ninety to the left and looked for the softest spots in
that vicinity. Once again, my peripheral vision brought my eyes to the left
and I noted that a portion of the airport from which I had just departed
seemed within reach. I made another ninety to the left, scared a J-3 pilot that
was taking off on the runway from which I had just departed and landed
downwind.
Some ten or twelve years (and four or five thousand hours flight time)
later, I had a similar experience in a TriPacer. Once again, my first choice
was
straight ahead. Did not look good. Second choice was to the left. Looked
doable. Made a turn, but then ---- a portion of the airport beckoned me. I
turned further left and landed downwind in a portion of the airport normally used
for model airplane flying.
That led me to experimenting with my Bonanza as to just what would be the
practicality of a turn back maneuver. Suffice it to say that I decided it
could be done with my early, lightweight straight model 35 bonanza if I had at
least six hundred feet and I did everything just right. I have not done the
flight tests with my current much heavier Bonanza, but I believe it could be
done after reaching a thousand feet or so.
Do I teach my students to do it?
No, I do not. I teach them to plan for straight ahead, but I do relate my
own experience and try to let them know that a turn is OK -- IF the speed is
adequate and their mental state is up to the task. My recommendation is to
land straight ahead doing the best they can with what is available. If
conditions seem really good, a turn back is not forbidden and can be safe if properly
conducted.
Nowadays, I do reference Bobby Younkin's roll on takeoff when I discuss that
almost anything can be done with an airplane if the training is adequate and
the conditions are "right".
Do Not Archive
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Airpark LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8502
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Precise Aircraft Manuevering |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
In a message dated 4/10/2005 5:25:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
More people die trying to make it
back to the airport when an engine quits then flying it strait ahead and
landing (crashing under control). It is my opinion that unless you
believe without a doubt you can safely turn around (at that particular
point in time) you should land under control wing level strait ahead.
Mark,
Thanks for your comments. I have to use one of Bob's favorite lines and say,
"Show me the statistics you are referring to which document that more people
die trying to turn back to the airport compared to a straight-ahead landing
and 'crashing under control.'" Without facts, your comment is unsubstantiated.
Further, you implication is that the pilot will be out-of-control should he
turn around. Perhaps - but I suggest that by using safe techniques and careful
preparation, a turn around to the airport could be much safer than landing
straight ahead.
Ha, tell you what, I'll stir the pot a little more with another topic. I
advocate striving to land on a highway should the engine fail out of reach of an
airport. I have good rationale why it's the safest thing to do and I have
techniques for accomplishing it safely. Maybe I should put that on the web site
also.
Whew! I can feel the flames already! : )
Stan Sutterfield
Message 4
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 5
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 6
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 7
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 8
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 9
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 10
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 11
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 12
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 13
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 14
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 15
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 16
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 17
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 18
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 19
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 20
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 21
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 22
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 23
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 24
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 25
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 26
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 27
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 28
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 29
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 30
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 31
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 32
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| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 36
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|
| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 37
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|
| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 38
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|
| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 39
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|
| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 40
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|
| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 41
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|
| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 42
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|
| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Interested parties .. I'm back.
The south will never be the same
W.C.
C/FRDF
Message 43
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|
| Subject: | Re: Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "james wickert" <jimw_btg@earthlink.net>
enough is enough why fill the group with wasted mail
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind-List: Wally's return
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow"
<wjc1@sprint.ca>
>
> Interested parties .. I'm back.
> The south will never be the same
> W.C.
> C/FRDF
>
>
Message 44
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|
| Subject: | Re: Tailwind-List: Wally's return? TEST |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
What the hell is this about?!... I have received nothing but this and
another version of the message below about 60 or 80 times in the last two
days and nothing else. DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind-List: Wally's return
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow"
> <wjc1@sprint.ca>
>
> Interested parties .. I'm back.
> The south will never be the same
> W.C.
> C/FRDF
>
>
>
Message 45
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|
| Subject: | Re: Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
Amen to that! This thing has shut down the Matronics postings all day!
Do not archive
Larry McFarland
james wickert wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "james wickert" <jimw_btg@earthlink.net>
>
>enough is enough why fill the group with wasted mail
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
>To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind-List: Wally's return
>
>
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow"
>>
>>
><wjc1@sprint.ca>
>
>
>>Interested parties .. I'm back.
>>The south will never be the same
>> W.C.
>> C/FRDF
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 46
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|
Engines-List@matronics.com, Europa-List@matronics.com,
Kitfox-List@matronics.com, Kolb-List@matronics.com,
Pietenpol-List@matronics.com, Rocket-List@matronics.com,
RV-List@matronics.com, RV9-List@matronics.com, RV10-List@matronics.com,
Tailwind-List@matronics.com, Yak-List@matronics.com,
Zenith-List@matronics.com
| Subject: | Wally Messages Stopped! |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
My sincere apologies! At about 4:30am this morning there was an odd system
problem on the Matornics email server, causing many mail files to become
marked as "read-only". This wedged many of the List filters causing all
sorts of weird behavior. Perhaps the oddest was that an innocent message
from Walter Critchlow, kept getting posted instead of the actual incoming
List message.
If you receive this message, and sent a list message to any of the lists
shown below between the hours of 4:30am and 5:15pm PDT on Sunday Apr 10th,
your message was one of the ones that got subverted. Please repost your
message to the respective list.
AeroElectric-list
Commandaer-list
Engines-List
Europa-List
Kitfox-List
Kolb-List
Pietenpol-List
Rocket-List
RV-List
RV9-List
RV10-List
Tailwind-List
Yak-List
Zenith-List
Again, my sincere apologies for the problems. I was doing my Taxes (!)
today and wasn't keeping as close an eye on the Lists as I normally do.
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
Message 47
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|
| Subject: | Re: Tailwind-List: Wally's return? TEST |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John D. Heath" <Alto_Q@direcway.com>
Jim,
Just block the idiot from your e-Mail.
John D.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind-List: Wally's return? TEST
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
>
> What the hell is this about?!... I have received nothing but this and
> another version of the message below about 60 or 80 times in the last two
> days and nothing else. DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
> To: <tailwind-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind-List: Wally's return
>
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow"
>> <wjc1@sprint.ca>
>>
>> Interested parties .. I'm back.
>> The south will never be the same
>> W.C.
>> C/FRDF
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 48
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|
| Subject: | Re: How to Wire an Aircraft |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Larry McFarland <larrymc@qconline.com>
Guy,
I started with the big wires, battery connections and worked thru engine
wiring before backing into the panel and the lighting. I used 16-ga &
18-ga because it will last longer in vibration if bundled correctly and
it works just as well as 20-ga & 22-ga. Id suggest buying as many color
codes of wire as you have fuses. I didnt and its difficult sometimes
to relate a specific fuse to which wire. I didnt use circuit breakers
and did exactly as described in the Bobs AeroElectric Connection using
fuse blocks as found in cars. Wiring from the panel was done in stages,
first being wires that provide switching power between contactors and
the plane. Then do just the wires between each device/light/switch to
each fuse. Then make all ground connections from the devices to the
firewall ground cluster at a firewall tab plate for a frame or cable
return ground. In positioning each wire, you get the idea that bundling
is possible most of the time and routing from each fuse or switch is
predictably similar to the next one and thus your bundling-support
resolves as you go. This doesnt suggest you can get along without a
wiring diagram. You must have one to establish your layout, make a count
of your devices, fuses, grounds, routing and become familiar with your
specific power/switching needs. Draw the devices first, then the wires
connecting them similar to examples found in the AeroElectric Connection
schematics. Pay special attention to the methods for fastening, bundling
and crimping as you go. If you purchase an EIS, youll get a bundle of
wires that set a good example for color coding and your wiring job will
be a lot simpler, because this device will be half-wired and have a good
diagram ready for the rest of the connections. It will cut the job of
engine wiring considerably. Your confusion is the result of looking at
the whole wiring picture. Better you focus on just one element at a time
and segment your efforts and youll do fine.
I'm still electrically challenged, as you can tell, but I'm not aware
that there are any special waterproof or fireproof connectors for the
engine area.
Larry McFarland 601HDS @ www.macsmachine.com
<http://www.macsmachine.com/>
Do not archive
Guy Buchanan wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>
>Pretty broad title, I know. However I'm discovering as I wire my simple
>Kitfox that I really have no clue what I'm doing. Does anyone have a source
>for the basics of how to wire an aircraft. I'm talking about how to
>actually do the wiring, not how to do the design. I've got a pretty good
>design, though I'm still unsure of the supports and things. I've read Bob's
>book, and AC 43-13, but can't find hands-on knowledge on the best way to
>actually do it. My questions run like:
>
>1. Which end do I start with?
>2. Do I bundle as I go? Or do I leave a rats nest and try to bundle it all
>at the end?
>3. Do I leave one end clear until I'm done bundling?
>4. What type of connectors should I use where? Where do I find
>waterproof/fireproof connectors for firewall forward and do I even need them?
>
>You see what I mean. Any guidance would be appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Guy Buchanan
>K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
>
Message 49
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|
| Subject: | Re: How to Wire an Aircraft |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bobby Hester <bhester@hopkinsville.net>
Guy Buchanan wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>My questions run like:
>
>1. Which end do I start with?
>2. Do I bundle as I go? Or do I leave a rats nest and try to bundle it all
>at the end?
>3. Do I leave one end clear until I'm done bundling?
>4. What type of connectors should I use where? Where do I find
>waterproof/fireproof connectors for firewall forward and do I even need them?
>
>You see what I mean. Any guidance would be appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Guy Buchanan
>K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
I'm no expert or anything, but what I did was this. I don't have a
engine or my battery yet, so I got a power converter to hook up to the
contactor on the firewall I started there and work one wire at a time
carrying the power into the aircraft to the fuse busses. From there I
started working one wire at a time from the fuse busses to the switches.
I decided on the route that all the wires would follow and then in
stalled some cushion clamps with just one leg screwed down so that I
could slip the wires into the clamp to hold them in place allong the
way. Do this to all the wires. Now run the wires from the switches to
what they control. I tested each item as I got it hooked up to insure it
worked properly. I left the wires somewhat loose along the way but you
don't want them so loose that when you are done and start to zip tie
them that you end up with wires that are too long or too short. One wire
at a time supports along the wire route and follow the power flow. One
day there will not be anymore wires to run and zip tie it all up and
your done. I am at the point of adding the last 3-4 wires and then I
start the zip ties.
--
Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY
Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/
RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-)
Message 50
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|
| Subject: | Re: Six Pack Spacing |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Something to keep in mind is that a lot of people are "upgrading" to Dynons
or Blue Mountains and what not. While these instruments do simply "slide
into" a 3 1/8" hole, they are much larger than most people have left space
for. Unless you have pretty significant spacing, they might overlap
adjacent instruments.
Anyway, food for thought in your layout planning.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <hebeard@comcast.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Six Pack Spacing
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: hebeard@comcast.net
>
> For Tom Barter. Guru Tony Bingelis before his death recommended the
minimum distance between instrument centers for 3 1/8" instruments as 3
1/2".
> Harley E.
>
>
> <SCRIPT language=javascript>postamble();</SCRIPT>
> For Tom Barter. Guru Tony Bingelis before his death recommended the
minimum distance between instrument centers for 3 1/8" instruments as 3
1/2".
>
>
> Harley E.
>
>
Message 51
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|
| Subject: | Re: EL Panel Lights |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John W Livingston" <livingjw@earthlink.net>
you can get a 12 inverter and a 1 inch by 36 in strip along with a 6x6 inch
square white el light for $75 from e. lite. They both can be driven together
with the inverter but the light does dip a little.
Message 52
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|
| Subject: | Re: Tailwind-List: Wally's return |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com
the guy most likely isn't the culprit and has no idea this is happening
(unless he receives all this crap)
rumen
do not archive
_____________________Original message __________________________
(received from james wickert; Date: 07:02 PM 4/10/2005
-0400)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "james wickert"
<jimw_btg@earthlink.net>
enough is enough why fill the group with wasted mail
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Critchlow" <wjc1@sprint.ca>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind-List: Wally's return
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Walter Critchlow"
<wjc1@sprint.ca>
>
> Interested parties .. I'm back.
> The south will never be the same
> W.C.
> C/FRDF
>
>
Message 53
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|
| Subject: | Tailwind-List: Wally's return? TEST |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
John D.
It seems that this was a system error through no fault of the person listed
in the email (Wally). See message from Matt about same.
James
Matt's comment in case you missed it:
Dear Listers,
My sincere apologies! At about 4:30am this morning there was an odd system
problem on the Matornics email server, causing many mail files to become
marked as "read-only". This wedged many of the List filters causing all
sorts of weird behavior. Perhaps the oddest was that an innocent message
from Walter Critchlow, kept getting posted instead of the actual incoming
List message.
| -----Original Message-----
| From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-
| aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John D. Heath
| Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 8:35 PM
| To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
| Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind-List: Wally's return? TEST
|
| --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John D. Heath"
| <Alto_Q@direcway.com>
|
| Jim,
| Just block the idiot from your e-Mail.
| John D.
|
| DO NOT ARCHIVE
{SNIP}
Message 54
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|
| Subject: | Re: How to Wire an Aircraft |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
> Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>>
>> Pretty broad title, I know. However I'm discovering as I wire my
>> simple Kitfox that I really have no clue what I'm doing. Does anyone
>> have a source for the basics of how to wire an aircraft. I'm talking
>> about how to actually do the wiring, not how to do the design. I've
>> got a pretty good design, though I'm still unsure of the supports and
>> things. I've read Bob's book, and AC 43-13, but can't find hands-on
>> knowledge on the best way to actually do it. My questions run like:
>>
>>
> The wire supports bothered me for awhile too. Adel clamps worked for
> large wires. Eventually I started using nylon supports that rivet to
> the airframe and let you tie wires to them. Similar to the pic for
> Spruce part CTM-2. However I got them locally for dramatically cheaper
> and was able to pick two appropriate sizes. There are adhesive
> versions of these as well. In some cases I wrapped an engine mount
> tube with silicone tape and then tied directly to that.
>
>> 1. Which end do I start with?
>>
> I started at the engine reasoning that wire length and neatness was
> more important at the high vibration end. I probably left too much
> slack at a lot of the instrument panel connections but I'm not trying
> for any cosmetic awards and several times I've been glad to have an
> extra bit of wire to recrimp two wires together or reroute something.
>
>> 2. Do I bundle as I go? Or do I leave a rats nest and try to bundle
>> it all at the end?
>>
> Yes yes yes. I used a lot of twist tie wrap wires (from the kitchen)
> and then started replacing them with lacing. Some prefer a gazilion
> plastic tie wraps. The tighter you tie it after every wire, the neater
> it will end up.
>
>> 3. Do I leave one end clear until I'm done bundling?
>>
> I did not except for items that weren't installed yet. Some bundles
> were convenient to run all together and then make all the connections.
>
>> 4. What type of connectors should I use where? Where do I find
>> waterproof/fireproof connectors for firewall forward and do I even
>> need them?
>>
>>
> I used the AMP PIDG connectors everywhere I could and was very
> pleased. These are covered in the "connection" aren't they? I also put
> heat shrink over all the bare push ons so that there was no exposed
> metal. By definition a crimp connection is moisture proof and anything
> metal or silicone will stand a lot more heat than the wire insulation
> so I don't thing you need to worry about that. I found wiring about
> the same as the rest of the project. Intimidating until you get
> started. You crimp a few wires for practice, you do a few things
> twice, you ask a few specific questions, think about a few things
> overnight, you gradually get comfortabls with it and find that you are
> finished ;)
> Ken
>
>> You see what I mean. Any guidance would be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Guy Buchanan
>> K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
>>
>
Message 55
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|
| Subject: | Re: Tailwind-List: Wally's return? TEST |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John D. Heath" <Alto_Q@direcway.com>
James,
Yea, thanks James. You'd think after all this time I'd have learned to keep
my mouth shut.
John D
----- Original Message -----
From: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Tailwind-List: Wally's return? TEST
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James E. Clark"
> <james@nextupventures.com>
>
> John D.
>
> It seems that this was a system error through no fault of the person
> listed
> in the email (Wally). See message from Matt about same.
>
> James
>
> Matt's comment in case you missed it:
>
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> My sincere apologies! At about 4:30am this morning there was an odd
> system
> problem on the Matornics email server, causing many mail files to become
> marked as "read-only". This wedged many of the List filters causing all
> sorts of weird behavior. Perhaps the oddest was that an innocent message
> from Walter Critchlow, kept getting posted instead of the actual incoming
> List message.
>
>
>
> {SNIP}
>
>
>
Message 56
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
That's true, in fact when finding some to stock in my inventory, I received
some of their sampels that I reviewed before I chose the stuff I have. The
inverter is HUGE compared to the ones I ended up buying. It's also noisier
than the ones I ended up with. It'll work fine, I'm not bashing it but
rather pointing out why I didn't go with it. The little 1" cube inverter
was worth a few extra bucks, so that's why I have it.
Cheers,
Stein
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John W
Livingston
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EL Panel Lights
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John W Livingston"
<livingjw@earthlink.net>
you can get a 12 inverter and a 1 inch by 36 in strip along with a 6x6 inch
square white el light for $75 from e. lite. They both can be driven together
with the inverter but the light does dip a little.
Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Speed |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Ken wrote:
Wow - Real numbers!
Belt and fan losses have to be significant to get 7.5 hp or 10%
efficiency. I notice "calculated" load rather than measured though. A
very clever gentleman once suggested that magnetic losses also ramp up
fast as the speed (frequency) gets really high. Eddy currents?? He
postulated that efficiency probably fell off as you went above the
minimum rpm required to generate rated current.
Ken
>
>> snip
>>
> On a 358 cu.in chevy, running at 8300 rpm and the alt spinning 12,450
> rpms we calculated a load of 38 amps.
>
> snip
>
>> The horsepower loss to generate 38 amps at 8300 engine rpm was 7.5.
>> The water pump ate up 15 and the power steering pump on the straight
>> a ways used 5 and when loaded for the turns 13 HP. Keep in mind that
>> was 17 years ago. I bet the water pump has not changed much,power
>> steering pumps are more efficient, and alts are about the same. do
>> not archive
>> Ben Haas
>> N801BH
>> www.haaspowerair.com
>>
>
>
Message 58
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| Subject: | Printed circuit board question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Hall" <mhall67@carolina.rr.com>
Has any one ever used a printed circuit board for a fuse block? Or made a fuse
block from a printed circuit board? What would be the problems if you did something
like this? For me it would really be nice if my connections came out
the back instead out the side like all the ones you can buy now. And it would
be nice if you could put the main bus and the essential bus on the same board
with a break between them and a spot for the diode. The wiring would be the same
as the Z13 just all in one spot. Any thoughts?
Thanks
Mark
Message 59
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| Subject: | Emag/mag timing question |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:05 PM 4/9/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" <gwbraly@gami.com>
>
>
>The problem I see is that the higher voltage required to jump the ugly
>worn gap - - is the same whether it is a magneto or an electronic system.
>
>If the gap is large, the mag will build the voltage... easily.
>
>The problem then is usually associated with arcing across the insulation.
>
>I have one electronic ignition running on the test stand and you can see
>the spark coming out of one ignition lead and jumping to a nearby piece of
>steel.
>
>The plugs are brand new.
That's a different problem. I used to build transistorized versions of
the Kettering
system for hot-rodders that provided up to 6x the spark energy. While
installing
a system in a customer's car one night in the driveway, we started the
car up
and it ran terribly. Fussed with it for some time before I accidently yanked
the plug out on the trouble light. When the light went out, one could see a
Kansas thunderstorm of sparks jumping out of harness fittings in several
places.
Just getting more snort doesn't help if the pipes leak.
Further, the fortunes of my customer's efforts at the track didn't
change as a result
of having hotter spark.
Bob . . .
Message 60
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Speed |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 04:35 AM 4/10/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "n801bh@netzero.com"
><n801bh@netzero.com>
>
>
>One thing I've been curious about is how much engine power is consumed by a
>typical alternator and how much more power is required to turn one at, say,
>4000 rpms vs 8000 rpms?
>
>Also, I'm sure that the amount of current being produced as well as how much
>air is being moved by cooling fans is parasitic at some level. Anyone seen
>any numbers, or can this all be lumped into the "negligible"
>category?
>
>Mark Phillips - do not archive
>
>
>Hi Mark, back in my previous life I owned and ran a racing engine R&D
>company. In 1988 I had contract to document HP losses due to components,
>ie: water pump, power steering pump, alternators. On a 358 cu.in chevy,
>running at 8300 rpm and the alt spinning 12,450 rpms we calculated a load
>of 38 amps. The draw was for the Ign systems, front and rear brake
>blowers, rear end gear blower, drivers suit cooling system, helmet
>rebreather and back then the in car camera the network used our battery
>to run that too. The horsepower loss to generate 38 amps at 8300 engine
>rpm was 7.5.
Hmmm . . . 38A * 14V = 532 watts. 532w/746 watts per HP yields 0.7 HP
at 100% efficiency.
0.7/7.5 yields an observed efficiency of 9 percent. I cannot argue
with what was
observed/measured but I'm wondering where all the rest of the
horsepower went. For
rough estimates of mechanical energy required we'll figure 50%
efficiency as a worst
case.
Bob . . .
Message 61
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| Subject: | Alternator Speed |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:51 PM 4/9/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
><frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
>So the torque required to drive the alt reduces with increasing RPM??
>Maybe it does it has to be for your argument to be true but if the
>torque is constant, the HP will increase with RPM as
>
>HP=torque*speed.
There are three strong components of alternator input power
requirements. The first and most pronounced is in the mechanical
to electrical energy conversion. It doesn't happen at 100% efficiency
so there's a multiplier (L) in this component. The next strongest
component is windage issues which generally follow the cube-of-speed
relationship and finally, there's plain friction (bearings and brushes).
HP(in) = (L*watts(out)/746) + (K*RPM(cubed)*windage) + (K*RPM*friction)
When the alternator is loaded then ALL other effects on driving torque
are insignificant compared to the mechanical-electrical energy
conversion and yes, as speed goes up, driving torque will go down.
As load is reduced, parasitic loads on driving torque become more
significant and at some point on great comparative graphing of loading
effects, windage and friction will become dominant. I've not studied
these effects in detail so I don't have a good feeling for how lightly
the alternator must be loaded and at what speeds this will happen. But
I'm certain that for loadings from day-vfr (8-10A) to night-ifr (20-35
amps) the parasitic effects are small compared to the task of converting
mechanical to electrical energy.
Bob . . .
Message 62
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| Subject: | Re: Molex Extraction Tool |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:59 PM 4/9/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>
>All,
> I bought the cheapo Molex extraction tool and, no surprise, it
>doesn't work worth a damn. Does anyone have a recommendation for a good
>one? Price no object at this point. I want it to work.
Here's a few of thousands of hits for Waldom/Molex and AMP
extraction tools for the white-nylon housings using
open-barrel pins.
http://www.action-electronics.com/molex.htm
http://www.unicornelex.com/newunicorn/subcategory.php?cat=E24J07&sortby=ITEMNO&style=LONG&page=0&
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T051/0115.pdf
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T051/0114.pdf
Also, just in case you're REALLY talking about AMP mate-n-lock
connectors see
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T051/0120.pdf
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T051/0121.pdf
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T051/0119.pdf
Bob . . .
Message 63
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| Subject: | Re: CBA II battery analyzer |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>Interesting. I did a google search for the CBA II and found several people
>who sell it.
> I wonder if powerwerx.com is the source. I don't think West Mountain
> Radio has any thing to do with the design or build of the product???
>
>Mountain West Radio $99.95, Power werx $94.95
>
>The products appear to be identical.
>
> Does the actual product say who makes it?
Nothing obvious.
I've completed the dissection and analysis of the failure on
my CBA II. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WestMountain_CBAII.pdf
This isn't a really "bad" design but it is thermally marginal
with respect to meeting specifications under the inevitable
variability of hand assembled production.
I haven't heard from West Mountain . . . and even if I
do, they can't do much about it if they don't build the
thing. Perhaps the actual designers will run across my
article is a net-search and elect to revisit their design
decisions. All-in-all, it's a slick product and with some
care will perform as specified. I plan to use mine (with
modifications) a great deal.
If anyone runs across some information that suggests the
original source for this product, I'd like to hear about it.
Bob . . .
Message 64
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| Subject: | Re: Making real world sense of the OVP thread |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 07:52 AM 4/2/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
>
>
>I haven't been on this list for very long, so forgive me if this has been
>covered earlier, or if I'm misinformed.
>
>I would think that turning off the alternator field even if the alternator
>is at full output would do no damage to anything.
True . . . if all you do is turn off the field. This is easily
accomplished on an EXTERNALLY regulated alternator. Shutting off
the alternator switch opens the field supply and quietly shuts
down the alternator.
>There is no high voltage
>transient, the battery just picks up the load as the system voltage drops to
>12v or a little less. When the alternator field is turned back on, the
>regulator should begin regulation as the voltage reaches its set point of
>14 volts
>or so.
Correct.
> Now here is where a transient could happen, as we don't know what the
>recovery characteristic of the regulator circuitry is, without an
>analysis of
>the design of the regulator. Some experimental data here would be
>necessary. I would especially like to know if a "linear" regulator
>would do as well
>as the switching type.
Both types are subject to the phenomenon.
> A scope on the battery line should tell us this
>information, but it would not necessarily hold for all regulators. I
>would report
>the result of this experiment, except my RV-7A with the Vans 60 amp system
>is in the paint shop for the next several weeks.
>
>Now, if you were to disconnect the battery while it (the battery) was
>drawing significant current, there is definitely a "load dump." The
>regulator
>would turn off the field, but the alternator field current would take
>some time
>to decay -- especially if a field diode in the regulator were recirculating
>the field current. The diode extends the L/R time constant to about 200
>milliseconds if memory serves me correctly. (Again, forgive me for not
>presenting
>experimental data here.) During that time the system voltage could approach
>40 to 60 volts (if there are no protective zeners, etc.) depending on the
>rest of the load. This is what a "load dump" is -- at least in
>the automotive
>world.
Yes . . . sudden reduction in alternator load will produce a
positive going transient that is a combination of all things
that increase flux decay time in the alternator field including
clamp diode and regulator response time . . . I think the later
is the most significant influence.
If the battery does not participate in the load dump event and
remains across the alternator output, then it soaks excess energy
up nicely and nobody takes notice. If battery disconnect is part of the
load
dump, then bus voltage will jump depending on time constants noted
above and residual loads still connected.
>There is also the possibility that the battery might be necessary to
>stabilize the regulator, alternator, battery, load loop. If that loop
>were to begin
>an oscillation it could easily exceed the design limits of the expensive
>"load" components. This experiment would best be done in the lab using
>something other than aircraft electronics for the load!
Done this many times. I've designed perhaps a dozen different regulators
for the aircraft industries with the most recent efforts being most of
those offered by B&C Specialty Products. In all cases, regulator response
dynamics were tuned with a battery on line. Alternator only operations were
not part of the design goal and therefore not considered. However, it's
a sure bet that regulators which depend on battery effects for smoothing
out the bumps will be hard put to maintain the same command and control
when the battery is not present.
>I will now revert back to reading and trying to catch up on this thread.
Load dump as a serious issue for discussion arose from two
venues (1) alternator failures reported by Van's customers
wherein we believe they properly identified an intolerable
stress from turning a loaded alternator OFF by means of
controls featured in OV protection cited in Figure Z-24 and
(2) a desire by some OBAM aircraft builders to make alternator-
only operations a practical reality.
Your perceptions of a need for off-aircraft laboratory tests
are correct. I thought I would be able to conduct some tests
when I acquired an alternator test stand that turned out to
be badly in need of refurbishment (and I don't think the motor
is large enough).
So, these issues are essentially on the back burner until
an investigation can be mounted. If I do the work, the experiments
will be fully illustrated and procedures documented. In the mean
time, I do not perceive a need for any members of the OBAM aircraft
community to make any big changes to currently installed systems
or planned systems.
Bob . . .
Message 65
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 11:41 PM 4/9/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
>
>At 10:49 PM 4/9/2005, you wrote:
>
> >Thanks John, this site is fantastic!
> >I did a search for Mitsubishi alternators that I have directions to for
> >making externally regulated and came up with part # ALT 3056 a 75 amp unit
> >for $139.99 NEW PRICE, not reman.
> >
> >Also, found a Nippondenso 70 amp NSA #Alt 5067 70 amp Toyoda for $137.79,
> >again NEW PRICE
> >
> >And my favorite, for my Sebring......a 125 amp honker NSA #ALT 6090,
> >EXTERNALLY regulated for $150.79
> >
> >All nice options.....but it appears one needs to change the pulley out. Then
> >there is the matter of making a mount assuming Van's doesn't fit. Also, I'm
> >not familiar with the NSA brand and can't say anything about their quality.
> >
> >What I really want is an externally regulated 60~75 amp, light weight
> >Nippondenso unit.
> >
> >Marty
Marty, do you really NEED all that snort? The largest full-up IFR
load analysis I've done on an RV type aircraft has been 28 amps
which leaves 13 left over for battery maintenance. Unless you're
planning to run electric seats or toe warmers, the smaller machine
may suffice nicely.
>Marty,
> If you want a 60 amp ND externally regulated alternator with a V belt
>pulley, you can ask for one from a 1981-1983 (last years for external
>regulators) Honda Accord or Toyota Camry. Be sure to specify WITH air
>conditioning (otherwise you'll get a 40 amp unit) This will get you an
>alternator that will work with no modifications, right out of the box.
> The down side of this is: Where do you think all those cars are now?
>Right, they are in the junk yard! How long do you suppose the parts stores
>will continue to stock these units? (If you can find one in stock now??)
>When my alternator releases it's magic smoke in Dubuque, Iowa on a Saturday
>or Sunday afternoon, I want the parts man to hand me a replacement right
>away. WHY? Because I don't care to spend 1 or 2 nights at the local motel
>(plus FedEx overnight shipping charges) while I wait in a strange town for
>a replacement. I prefer to use an alternator from a vehicle new enough that
>I can get a replacement for it in 5-8 years. Just something else to
>consider. Hey, if you don't travel cross country, it's not a big issue.
>See, I've got this friend........ his name is Murphy. Maybe you know him? :-)
> My current plan is to convert my internally regulated 60 amp ND for an
>external regulator. However, Bob, Eric Jones & perhaps Paul M. will soon
>make me change my plans.
Don't understand. If specifying an COTS (commercial-off-the-shelf) device
with external regulation is risky due to scarcity of parts, how is
modification of another COTS part any less risky? If it has to be modified
before it can be placed in service, it seems that either approach is not
going to be attractive at the Timbuktu Airdrome.
On the other hand, if one takes the time to craft an alternator with
a service record approaching or equal to that which B&C sells, then
perhaps worries about off-home-airport repairs become insignificant
whether the alternator is modified but plentiful -or- scarce but
useable out of the box.
Bob . . .
Message 66
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| Subject: | Re: CBA II battery analyzer |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DonVS" <dsvs@comcast.net>
Bob,
I bought a CBAII at about the same time as you did. Would you be willing to
share your mods so that I can make mine more likely to survive? Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: CBA II battery analyzer
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<b.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>Interesting. I did a google search for the CBA II and found several people
>who sell it.
> I wonder if powerwerx.com is the source. I don't think West Mountain
> Radio has any thing to do with the design or build of the product???
>
>Mountain West Radio $99.95, Power werx $94.95
>
>The products appear to be identical.
>
> Does the actual product say who makes it?
Nothing obvious.
I've completed the dissection and analysis of the failure on
my CBA II. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WestMountain_CBAII.pdf
This isn't a really "bad" design but it is thermally marginal
with respect to meeting specifications under the inevitable
variability of hand assembled production.
I haven't heard from West Mountain . . . and even if I
do, they can't do much about it if they don't build the
thing. Perhaps the actual designers will run across my
article is a net-search and elect to revisit their design
decisions. All-in-all, it's a slick product and with some
care will perform as specified. I plan to use mine (with
modifications) a great deal.
If anyone runs across some information that suggests the
original source for this product, I'd like to hear about it.
Bob . . .
Message 67
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| Subject: | Re: How to Wire an Aircraft |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
A short tale of discovery with a problem solved, for me at least.
As the wiring bundles grew, I kept finding it increasingly difficult to keep
adding wires in an orderly fashion. I tried using grocery store wire ties,
but they repeatedly needed tiring, time-wasting replacement. I tried Velcro
strips from the electronics shop, but they were clumsy and time consuming as
well. After trying a few other things, spring loaded mini clamps, pipe
cleaners etc., with less than the desired results and with the bundles
getting ever more difficult to maintain, I found myself staring at some long
lenths of Spiral wrap.
I decided to try cutting several short lengths, about four coils long, from
a couple of different diameter sizes. I then rounded the pointed cut ends
with my flush cutters so that these short pieces could easily be twisted
onto any bundle sections that were previously troublesome. After being put
in place, adding more wires was as simple as holding the wire parallel to
the bundle, hooking the end of the Spiral wrap section over the wire and
rotating the spiral wrap a few turns. Also the short lengths of Spiral wrap
allowed individual wire ends to be threaded through them without effort when
access allowed. As the wire bundles grew in diameter it was easy to
substitute a length of the next larger diameter.
For me, the customized Spiral wraps were very low cost and very good
utility. Highly reusable, and a great help in keeping the jungle of wires
from defying gravity and my patience. I will refrain from making reference
to the wiring process and it's overall effects on my sanity at this point.
{[;-)
Powered up,... no smoke devils escaped!
Try it, you might like it,
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bobby Hester" <bhester@hopkinsville.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How to Wire an Aircraft
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bobby Hester
> <bhester@hopkinsville.net>
>
> Guy Buchanan wrote:
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>>My questions run like:
>>
>>1. Which end do I start with?
>>2. Do I bundle as I go? Or do I leave a rats nest and try to bundle it all
>>at the end?
>>3. Do I leave one end clear until I'm done bundling?
>>4. What type of connectors should I use where? Where do I find
>>waterproof/fireproof connectors for firewall forward and do I even need
>>them?
>>
>>You see what I mean. Any guidance would be appreciated.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Guy Buchanan
>>K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
>>
>>
>>
> I'm no expert or anything, but what I did was this. I don't have a
> engine or my battery yet, so I got a power converter to hook up to the
> contactor on the firewall I started there and work one wire at a time
> carrying the power into the aircraft to the fuse busses. From there I
> started working one wire at a time from the fuse busses to the switches.
> I decided on the route that all the wires would follow and then in
> stalled some cushion clamps with just one leg screwed down so that I
> could slip the wires into the clamp to hold them in place allong the
> way. Do this to all the wires. Now run the wires from the switches to
> what they control. I tested each item as I got it hooked up to insure it
> worked properly. I left the wires somewhat loose along the way but you
> don't want them so loose that when you are done and start to zip tie
> them that you end up with wires that are too long or too short. One wire
> at a time supports along the wire route and follow the power flow. One
> day there will not be anymore wires to run and zip tie it all up and
> your done. I am at the point of adding the last 3-4 wires and then I
> start the zip ties.
>
>
> --
> Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY
> Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/
> RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-)
>
>
>
Message 68
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| Subject: | Re: CBA II battery analyzer |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DonVS" <dsvs@comcast.net>
Bob,
I bought a CBAII at about the same time as you did. Would you be willing to
share your mods so that I can make mine more likely to survive? Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Robert
L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: CBA II battery analyzer
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<b.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>Interesting. I did a google search for the CBA II and found several people
>who sell it.
> I wonder if powerwerx.com is the source. I don't think West Mountain
> Radio has any thing to do with the design or build of the product???
>
>Mountain West Radio $99.95, Power werx $94.95
>
>The products appear to be identical.
>
> Does the actual product say who makes it?
Nothing obvious.
I've completed the dissection and analysis of the failure on
my CBA II. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WestMountain_CBAII.pdf
This isn't a really "bad" design but it is thermally marginal
with respect to meeting specifications under the inevitable
variability of hand assembled production.
I haven't heard from West Mountain . . . and even if I
do, they can't do much about it if they don't build the
thing. Perhaps the actual designers will run across my
article is a net-search and elect to revisit their design
decisions. All-in-all, it's a slick product and with some
care will perform as specified. I plan to use mine (with
modifications) a great deal.
If anyone runs across some information that suggests the
original source for this product, I'd like to hear about it.
Bob . . .
Message 69
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| Subject: | Re: Molex Extraction Tool |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 11:31 PM 4/10/2005 -0500, you wrote:
...
> Here's a few of thousands of hits for Waldom/Molex and AMP
> extraction tools for the white-nylon housings using
> open-barrel pins.
...
Thanks Bob,
I had really hoped that someone had narrowed the field, as it's
clear I've got it bracketed on the cheap, worthless end. I guess I'll go
with the Molex product unless someone's got a better idea. (I thought a
high-quality product with interchangeable ends that would do all the sizes
might be neat, though.)
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
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