Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:35 AM - SD-8 and No Battery (Bob Barrow)
2. 05:55 AM - Re: Warning light press-to-test circuitry (Speedy11@aol.com)
3. 07:40 AM - Re: SD-8 and No Battery (J. Mcculley)
4. 08:46 AM - Re: SD-8 and No Battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 08:46 AM - Re: SD-8 and No Battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 08:57 AM - Re: Re: Warning light press-to-test (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 09:37 AM - Re: SD-8 and No Battery (Richard Riley)
8. 10:07 AM - Re: SD-8 and No Battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 11:14 AM - Just an Expensive Hobby?!?!?! ()
10. 11:21 AM - Re: SD-8 and No Battery (Gilles Thesee)
11. 05:47 PM - Re: Just an Expensive Hobby?!?!?! (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 05:48 PM - Re: SD-8 and No Battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 06:35 PM - Figure Z-20 Small Jabiru System (Dick Fisher)
14. 06:57 PM - Re: SD-8 and No Battery (James H Nelson)
15. 07:43 PM - Re: Internally regulated alternator OVP protection ()
16. 08:09 PM - Re: Just an Expensive Hobby?!?!?! (Dj Merrill)
17. 10:32 PM - Re: SD-8 and No Battery (Richard Riley)
18. 11:32 PM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (dralle@matronics.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | SD-8 and No Battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Barrow" <bobbarrow10@hotmail.com>
The SD-8 will not boot unless power is available to it. Once running alone,
and the battery is removed from the bus, the likely scenario is that as long
as the loads are fairly constant, and within the output level of the SD-8,
it will continue to run. If the load is light, the bus voltage will rise,
possibly to near 15.0 volts. There will likely be noise in the audio.
Lastly, if a load such as a motor or incandescent load is switched on, the
momentary in-rush current will possibly "swamp" the alternator and all
output would be lost unless a battery restart is possible.
Therefore one might conclude that it is theoretically possible to run the
SD-8 without a battery (but not start it) but in reality it is not a safe or
practical concept.
I think this means that if you have a dual alternator (with the back-up
being the SD-8) and one battery system then the whole system relies on the
one battery not failing or becoming disconnected.
>Just to clear up my mind.... Will the SD-8 installed as per Bob's
>recommendations function acceptably in the event that it is disconnected
>from the battery?
>Is the battery needed to get the SD-8 "started"?
>Richard
Buy what you really want - sell what you don't on eBay:
http://adfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/705-10129-5668-323?ID=2
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Warning light press-to-test circuitry |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
Bob N,
A valid and well-versed point.
The next question is: What are some functions the PTT could check and how do
I design and wire said contraption?
Stan Sutterfield
In a message dated 5/1/2005 2:57:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
When I design important electro-whizzies, there's a
test input pin that can be exercised with a push-button
on the panel. I use this input as a command to do
as much INTERNAL VERIFICATION OF FUNCTIONALITY as
possible. Hitting the PTT button and getting some
predictable behavior from the annunciator has much
a great deal more meaning and assurance of system
integrity.
In the mean time, very long lived LEDs have replaced
the limited life lamps for annunciation and indication.
But the PTT button for testing lamps seems to have
persisted. I'll suggest that unless a proposed PTT
system does more than illuminate LEDs, that adding
the PTT system reduces reliability (lots of extra
wiring, diodes, etc), increases $time$ to fabricate
and install the system and ultimately tells you
nothing of interest when you push the button.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: SD-8 and No Battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley" <mcculleyja@starpower.net>
I have been operating with the SD-8 and a single battery setup with a
33,000 microfadad capacitor across the buss to act as a short duration
"battery" in the event of temporary or permanent loss of the battery
connection to the buss. Testing via both short and long term operation
with the battery master turned off has shown that the SD-8 continues to
carry the buss load without interruption. I have never seen the voltage
exceed 14.2 volts. The capacitor may also provide some noise filtering
function although I have never been troubled by a need for noise
abatement, so can not attest to that capability.
Jim McCulley
Bob Barrow wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Barrow" <bobbarrow10@hotmail.com>
>
> The SD-8 will not boot unless power is available to it. Once running alone,
> and the battery is removed from the bus, the likely scenario is that as long
> as the loads are fairly constant, and within the output level of the SD-8,
> it will continue to run. If the load is light, the bus voltage will rise,
> possibly to near 15.0 volts. There will likely be noise in the audio.
> Lastly, if a load such as a motor or incandescent load is switched on, the
> momentary in-rush current will possibly "swamp" the alternator and all
> output would be lost unless a battery restart is possible.
>
> Therefore one might conclude that it is theoretically possible to run the
> SD-8 without a battery (but not start it) but in reality it is not a safe or
> practical concept.
>
> I think this means that if you have a dual alternator (with the back-up
> being the SD-8) and one battery system then the whole system relies on the
> one battery not failing or becoming disconnected.
>
>
>
>>Just to clear up my mind.... Will the SD-8 installed as per Bob's
>>recommendations function acceptably in the event that it is disconnected
>
>>from the battery?
>
>
>>Is the battery needed to get the SD-8 "started"?
>
>
>>Richard
>
>
> Buy what you really want - sell what you don't on eBay:
> http://adfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/705-10129-5668-323?ID=2
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: SD-8 and No Battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 10:39 AM 5/1/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley"
><mcculleyja@starpower.net>
>
>I have been operating with the SD-8 and a single battery setup with a
>33,000 microfadad capacitor across the buss to act as a short duration
>"battery" in the event of temporary or permanent loss of the battery
>connection to the buss. Testing via both short and long term operation
>with the battery master turned off has shown that the SD-8 continues to
>carry the buss load without interruption. I have never seen the voltage
>exceed 14.2 volts. The capacitor may also provide some noise filtering
>function although I have never been troubled by a need for noise
>abatement, so can not attest to that capability.
>
>Jim McCulley
Excellent DATA Jim, thanks for sharing.
Folks, Jim has described an experiment wherein he deduced
some things about the performance of the SD8 alternator. This
is exactly the kind of information that invites others to REPEAT the
experiment. There is no more solid foundation for the development and
sharing of what works than to have two or MORE independent investigators
try something, get similar or identical results and then share those
results with others.
Remember how our math teachers asked us to "show the work"?
It's not sufficient to simply "know" and pass along an answer
without details on the supporting, repeatable experiment. More
than once I recall getting the same answer as another student only to
be shown where we both made the same mistake in its production.
A whole lot of stuff cited as gospel is based on papers by writers
with airs of authority. Then there are experiments that are poorly
crafted, conducted with bias and/or mis-interpreted that are never
repeated yet accepted as valid. Finally, there's the ol' mechanic
and pilot's tales based mostly on hearsay and embellished with
imagination in every telling.
Interestingly enough, this is the very tool that empowers
those who DO NOT experiment to evaluate things they read
or are advised to do. You don't have to be conversant in the
technology or science of the topic to ask, "Who were the
experimenters? How did their results compare? What are
the simple ideas that underpin the conclusions?" Obviously,
you're not going to get a real data-dump on every juicy
tid-bit passed on to you during the course of building
and owning your airplane. But lacking such information, you
are perfectly reasonable to be skeptical of everything
that is not so supported . . . and perhaps resolve to
do your own experiment to confirm or debunk the accuracy
of what you are told.
When in doubt, post it here on the List where numbers
of folks can peek under all the rocks, consider the unasked
questions and help you make sense of the of the
imponderable.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: SD-8 and No Battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 05:33 PM 5/1/2005 +1000, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Barrow"
><bobbarrow10@hotmail.com>
>
>The SD-8 will not boot unless power is available to it. Once running alone,
>and the battery is removed from the bus, the likely scenario is that as long
>as the loads are fairly constant, and within the output level of the SD-8,
>it will continue to run. If the load is light, the bus voltage will rise,
>possibly to near 15.0 volts. There will likely be noise in the audio.
>Lastly, if a load such as a motor or incandescent load is switched on, the
>momentary in-rush current will possibly "swamp" the alternator and all
>output would be lost unless a battery restart is possible.
>
>Therefore one might conclude that it is theoretically possible to run the
>SD-8 without a battery (but not start it) but in reality it is not a safe or
>practical concept.
>
>I think this means that if you have a dual alternator (with the back-up
>being the SD-8) and one battery system then the whole system relies on the
>one battery not failing or becoming disconnected.
Another good data dump with well considered comments.
Thank you sir!
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Warning light press-to-test |
circuitry
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
circuitry
At 08:54 AM 5/1/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
>
>Bob N,
>A valid and well-versed point.
>The next question is: What are some functions the PTT could check and how do
>I design and wire said contraption?
>Stan Sutterfield
I presume you're asking about how to add MEANINGFUL press-to-test
capability to an LED based annunciation system.
The very BEST way is to exercise everything that gets annunciated
during pre-flight and NOT have a press-to-test system. Of hand,
I can't think of any commonly annunciated conditions that cannot
be confirmed by exercising that feature.
For example, low volts and low pressure lights should be on
with the engine stopped and go out at appropriate times as
the engine spools up and alternators are brought on line.
Canopy latches can be cycled, etc.
Make a list of all the lights you plan to have and then
post the ones that you can't cycle. Let's study the sensors
and wiring associated with that function and see if there
are ways to craft a meaningful pre-flight activity to confirm
operation of the system. This applies to aural warnings as
well.
The ideal system has NO press-to-test buttons that do not
exercise the whole warning system.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: SD-8 and No Battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Riley <Richard@Riley.net>
At 12:33 AM 5/1/05, Bob Barrow wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Barrow"
><bobbarrow10@hotmail.com>
>
>The SD-8 will not boot unless power is available to it.
Why not? Isn't it a permanent magnet dynamo?
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: SD-8 and No Battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 09:36 AM 5/1/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Riley <Richard@Riley.net>
>
>At 12:33 AM 5/1/05, Bob Barrow wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Barrow"
> ><bobbarrow10@hotmail.com>
> >
> >The SD-8 will not boot unless power is available to it.
>
>Why not? Isn't it a permanent magnet dynamo?
It's the way the regulator is designed. Your question
is well grounded . . . if AC power is available any time
the alternator is turning, why should it take external
bias to wake up the regulator?
Good thing to hit up B&C about. I wouldn't design the
regulator that way . . . and perhaps the supplier of
their present regulator would be amenable to adding
the hand full of components necessary to make the
system come up by itself.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Just an Expensive Hobby?!?!?! |
0.37 PLING_QUERY Subject has exclamation mark and question mark
0.00 MANY_EXCLAMATIONS Subject has many exclamations
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<b.nuckolls@cox.net>
<<........skip.......This IS after all, just an expensive
hobby......skip......Bob>>
5/1/205
Now, in addition to the pornography filter on my computer, I will have to
add a heresy filter so that my wife is not exposed to such damning words!!
OC
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: SD-8 and No Battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Richard Riley a crit :
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Riley <Richard@Riley.net>
>
>At 12:33 AM 5/1/05, Bob Barrow wrote:
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob Barrow"
>><bobbarrow10@hotmail.com>
>>
>>The SD-8 will not boot unless power is available to it.
>>
>>
>
>Why not? Isn't it a permanent magnet dynamo?
>
>
>
>
I believe it all depends on the regulator.
Last year we conducted some experimenets with a Rotax 912 PM alternator
and two regulators : the standard Rotax-Ducati unit and a replacement
unit, the Schicke GR 4.
With no battery on-line, the Ducati doesn't come to life whereas the
Schicke boots with no problem.
I think this is an explanation for the 22000 uF capacitor included by
Rotax in it's circuit.
FWIW,
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Just an Expensive Hobby?!?!?! |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
At 02:13 PM 5/1/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
>
>
>AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
><b.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
> <<........skip.......This IS after all, just an expensive
>hobby......skip......Bob>>
>
>5/1/205
>
>Now, in addition to the pornography filter on my computer, I will have to
>add a heresy filter so that my wife is not exposed to such damning words!!
Do you mean you've been able to convince her that it was
anything else? Hmmmm . . . I did hear a comment from a wife
at OSH a number of years ago wherein she expressed thankfulness
for her husband's airplane project. She didn't elaborate as
to what his alternative activities might be. The
not-so-obvious possibilities are indeed endless. I guess I'll
have to categorize that statement as not belonging to the set
of simple-ideas pertaining to the OBAM aviation community.
I humbly stand corrected.
The simple idea of 'hobby' is not universally applicable . . .
but I think 'expensive' still is.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: SD-8 and No Battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <b.nuckolls@cox.net>
>
>I believe it all depends on the regulator.
>Last year we conducted some experimenets with a Rotax 912 PM alternator
>and two regulators : the standard Rotax-Ducati unit and a replacement
>unit, the Schicke GR 4.
>
>With no battery on-line, the Ducati doesn't come to life whereas the
>Schicke boots with no problem.
>
>I think this is an explanation for the 22000 uF capacitor included by
>Rotax in it's circuit.
A fat capacitor is ALWAYS indicated for smoothing the output
of a PM alternator system. They are by design, very noisy compared
to the wound-field, three-phase alternators.
I was mystified by the discovery that many of the series-pass,
phase-triggered SCR regulators wouldn't self start. Of course,
it's relatively easy to assume that every system will have a battery.
It takes a couple of diodes, a capacitor and a resistor to get
these extra simple regulators to come up by themselves irrespective
of the presence of a filter capacitor.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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| Subject: | Figure Z-20 Small Jabiru System |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dick Fisher" <sonex76@velocity.net>
Hi Bob,
On the Z-20 drawing you show a "starter contactor". Is this a continuous duty solenoid
or intermittent duty? I had already mounted both devices on my firewall before
I had
received your drawing and also included the 5A circuit breaker in my panel.
How do I go about wiring the continuous duty solenoid to the
2-10 switch and fuse panel ?
Your assistance is greatly appreciated.
Dick Fisher
sonex76@velocity.net
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: SD-8 and No Battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: James H Nelson <rv9jim@juno.com>
Hi Bob,
I would like the "8" to be available when my alternator goes
south either by electrons going astray or throwing a drive belt. This
SD-8 unit would be the best back up for simplicity and dependability. I
am planing for two "P" mags and the SD-8 as my back up. Its enough to
run my EFIS and com. The battery won't die this way so every thing else
will be available upon landing by getting their energy from the fully
charged battery.
Jim Nelson
RV9-A (N599RV-reserved)
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Internally regulated alternator OVP protection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
Dear: Eric, George B., Bob N., Steve and Ken,
The thought of flying for an hour with an OV is not plausible, at least if you
just reach up and turn the master switch off or pull the b-lead circuit breaker
(if you have one). That will be my procedure if the OV light comes on. The alternators
internal fuse (if you have one) will fail within 1-30 seconds depending
on the severity of the OV.
The word fire scares people. Protection from electrical fires is critical. I researched
the web and found electrical fires in cars do occur, mostly in wiring
not alternators. How rare is it?
ND alternators, favored by homebuilders are found in automobiles such as: Toyota
Tercel, Suzuki Swift/Samurai, Geo Metro and Chevy Sprint, to name a few. Checking
for complaints, safety bulletins or recalls against these cars in the NHTSA-
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration database going back to 1972,
showed no alternator fires. However it is interesting other car models catch
fire with alarming frequency. Some Ford alternators and Hitachi alternators
in some Nissans apparently have a history of catching things on fire, in part
to both alternator design and installation (wiring) issues.
Alternators do catch fire, in one case. A boat fire from an alternator was due
to a failed bearing that blew grease out, catching fire. It was not a ND and it
had an External-VR. To support a fire you need heat, O2 and fuel, so I think
the fire danger to us is very remote if the alternator is not near anything combustible.
Painting All I-VR with a broad brush is not adequate to describe a wide range of
designs. What burned up on your bench years ago may not be a valid comparison
to designs today. Also if you have one potential failure point, you add enough
protection & safe guards so the risk becomes acceptable. Of course as cockpits
become more "glass" the stakes go up.
I would suggest if motivated by protection of expensive avionics, consider protecting
just the avionics buss with an OV module/relay (preferably solid state).
A back-up battery powers the avionics/ignition when the (delicate) avionics
buss ISOLATES after an over voltage trip. The advantage is you are switching 10
amps, not 100 amps. Since this buss is continuously powered by the back-up battery
and main battery, you will never loose power to the radios. When the alternator
shuts down (internal OV protection or fuse) or you manually pull the
b-lead CB, you could re-connect the main battery back to the avionics buss. Bob
N. does not recommend a big-old circuit breaker for the B-lead on your panel
to reduce potential electrical noise.
I dont think anyone said OV in an I-VR cant happen, but it is rare. The designers
know this. That is why they have secondary protection with current fuses. Do
all alternators use this? Dont know. The ND model I have has a current fuse
(short circuit) protection in the field circuit. Current fuses are very common
in power equipment. They are thermal devices so they tend to be de-rated to avoid
blowing too early. The good part is they will blow and protect the alternator
wires from melt down; the bad part is they will not blow fast enough to protect
electronics. The time to blow is based on % over rated capacity. They blow
in less than 1 second to a max of 30 seconds per specs (not an hour). The
good part is they will fail before the alternators wires, solder connections and
rectifier can melt and get too hot or produce sparks. That is the idea anyway.
I know stories state otherwise, but without knowing what alternator it occurred
to, how, what and why, the info is a questio
n mark.
I stated the 0.5 million hours MTBF (statistical) number for I-VR failures is based
on running electronics near their thermal limit. So the typical alternator
VR will go 57 year without failing an electronic component. If an airplane environment
is 100 times more severe than this, you could still expect 5,000 hours
without failure. Your wing spar may be a single (point) load path part. It
is trusted because of safety factors incorporated. We dont add another wing as
a back up. This is the same with alternators; make is so reliable that a failure
is unlikely. Wings come off and alternators fail, but at least an alternator,
even after an over voltage, should still allow you to land safely on battery
power. The issue of burning fancy avionics is still there.
Most of the discussion has been around the transistor, but according to the engineers,
in a power system with a transistor, diode and IC, the IC is most likely
to fail sooner. I doubt the IC alone will cause an OV and probably fault tolerant,
like your cars computer, with a limp home mode. IC logic can protect the
alternator way better than old VRs, which only had basic VR functions. Clearly
the modern I-VR has a lot more going for it than just regulation of the juice,
such as over voltage protection. How effective it is I dont know, but because
there are so few, if any, confirmed OV cases with them (ND), I guess it works
well.
Past history of old VR technology, internal or external, is like the stock market,
past performance is no indication of future performance. My original premise
was millions are in the field with no problems. Albeit cars and industrial
equipment are not planes, there are ND and Mitsubishi alternators flying for over
8 years or more in planes. That speaks for itself. If you must put extra
OV protection on an I-VR, consider just protection of the delicate avionics buss,
as suggested above.
The whole point to my discourse is what really is going on in an I-VR, preferably
facts and tests for a particular model of alternator?
Thanks George RV-7
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Just an Expensive Hobby?!?!?! |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu>
bakerocb@cox.net wrote:
> <<........skip.......This IS after all, just an expensive
> hobby......skip......Bob>>
>
> 5/1/205
>
> Now, in addition to the pornography filter on my computer, I will have to
> add a heresy filter so that my wife is not exposed to such damning words!!
>
Hobby, addiction, why mince words? ;-)
-Dj
Sportsman Builder #7118
do not archive
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: SD-8 and No Battery |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Riley <Richard@Riley.net>
At 10:06 AM 5/1/05, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Good thing to hit up B&C about. I wouldn't design the
> regulator that way . . . and perhaps the supplier of
> their present regulator would be amenable to adding
> the hand full of components necessary to make the
> system come up by itself.
Damn. I'd settled on an SD8 as a backup. I wanted to be able to run on
any one of the three electrical sources, now suddenly I'm back down to 2.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] |
DNA: do not archive
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Dear Lister,
Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
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http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html
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Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
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