---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/13/05:15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:02 AM - "New" FAA Reguirement (Mark Banus) 2. 08:25 AM - (Jim Stone) 3. 09:47 AM - Re: [vertical compass] (Earl_Schroeder) 4. 09:47 AM - Powersonic battery experience (David Chalmers) 5. 12:10 PM - Re: Powersonic battery experience (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 12:33 PM - Re: Powersonic battery experience (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 7. 01:19 PM - Radio noise problem (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 8. 01:25 PM - Re: Powersonic battery experience (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 01:43 PM - Battery capacity degradation (czechsix@juno.com) 10. 02:39 PM - Re: Powersonic battery experience (David Chalmers) 11. 03:45 PM - Re: Battery capacity degradation (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 04:16 PM - Signal Sourcing for GPS/NAV (Jim.Piavis@sybase.com) 13. 06:01 PM - Re: Powersonic battery experience (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 06:32 PM - Re: Powersonic battery experience (Richard E. Tasker) 15. 11:40 PM - Re: Powersonic battery experience (David Chalmers) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:48 AM PST US From: "Mark Banus" Subject: AeroElectric-List: "New" FAA Reguirement --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Banus" Go to the RV list and read Scott Spencer's May 12 0906 AM message. He explains this "new" requirement in detail. It is a non-issue for most of us. Mark Banus ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:33 AM PST US From: "Jim Stone" Subject: AeroElectric-List: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" Can anyone tell me how well the vertical compass cards work. I'm talking about the replacement for the wet compass that many aircraft have today. I recently heard they hang-up or stick while in turns making them hard to use as a backup compass for IFR ops. Spruce offers two models, a TSO and a Non TSO. No brands are mentioned. Both cards in the $200-265.00 range. I am looking for something that works better in turns and turbulence than the wet compass. Thanks, Jim Stone HRII ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:47:26 AM PST US From: Earl_Schroeder Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: [vertical compass] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Earl_Schroeder The fine print on mine indicates that they are not to be used in 'piston' driven aircraft. I believe the liquid dampened versions would be more reliable - especially in turbulence. The vertical compass only has 'magnetic dampening'. I use one but depend on the ground track from the GPS as my primary reference. I also found the two adjustments for nulling out the magnetic variances lacked enough adjustment to properly swing it. I like the looks of it. Your [and others] mileage may vary.. Earl Jim Stone wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" > >Can anyone tell me how well the vertical compass cards work. I'm talking about the replacement for the wet compass that many aircraft have today. >I recently heard they hang-up or stick while in turns making them hard to use as a backup compass for IFR ops. >Spruce offers two models, a TSO and a Non TSO. No brands are mentioned. Both cards in the $200-265.00 range. >I am looking for something that works better in turns and turbulence than the wet compass. >Thanks, >Jim Stone >HRII > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:47:26 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Powersonic battery experience From: "David Chalmers" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Chalmers" I just did the annual battery replacement on my Q200. Thought I'd pass along my experience... I have used the Powersonic PS330-NB for 5 years - changed out for a new one every year - and it worked great. However, I just replaced it again during the condition inspection and the new one could barely turn the engine over. I found that the battery had a high internal resistance - much higher than any of the previous ones. I assumed it was a bad battery and ordered another. The replacement had the same problem - high internal resistance. I then weighed both new batteries and they were only 21.5lb, not the 26.5lb that the previous batteries weighed and that the spec sheet calls out. The battery supplier said they are the cheapest batteries they sell, come from different factories in China, and they can't control the quality. I bought a Yuasa instead - same price and it works as well as the old Powersonics. Maybe this was just a bad batch but my new philosophy is not to trust a new battery until it's been weighed, load tested and capacity tested. I will probably also test every year rather than replacing since I now have the equipment. I'm using load tester KAL4260 ($50) and capacity tester Bob has written about from WestMountainRadio.com (~$100) David Chalmers TriQ200 N4016G Redmond, WA ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:10:16 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Powersonic battery experience --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:45 AM 5/13/2005 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Chalmers" > > > >I just did the annual battery replacement on my Q200. Thought I'd pass >along my experience... > >I have used the Powersonic PS330-NB for 5 years - changed out for a new >one every year - and it worked great. However, I just replaced it again >during the condition inspection and the new one could barely turn the >engine over. I found that the battery had a high internal resistance - >much higher than any of the previous ones. I assumed it was a bad battery >and ordered another. The replacement had the same problem - high internal >resistance. I then weighed both new batteries and they were only 21.5lb, >not the 26.5lb that the previous batteries weighed and that the spec sheet >calls out. The battery supplier said they are the cheapest batteries they >sell, come from different factories in China, and they can't control the >quality. I bought a Yuasa instead - same price and it works as well as the >old Powersonics. > >Maybe this was just a bad batch but my new philosophy is not to trust a >new battery until it's been weighed, load tested and capacity tested. I >will probably also test every year rather than replacing since I now have >the equipment. I'm using load tester KAL4260 ($50) and capacity tester Bob >has written about from WestMountainRadio.com (~$100) Good data . . . and some excellent deductions. IF one depends on a battery for some standards of performance, then the ONLY philosophy that guarantees your wishes will be met is by TESTING. I don't care who's brand is on the battery, how well it ran in my hangar mate's airplane, or what you've seen in the TV ads promoting the product. David's weight measurements alone were a very strong suggestion that the old and new batteries were very different. The lead acid battery technology delivers so many watt-hours per pound of reactant plus-minus some minor performance tweaks between brands. The supplier indicates that the batteries are essentially a re-stickered product of unknown origins. That doesn't automatically make any product good, bad or otherwise, just a candidate for healthy skepticism. I've taken the el-cheeso 17 a.h. battery out of some hardware store portable power units that performed very well initially . . . and David tells us you can buy a turkey right out of the box. When in doubt, or if it really matters to you, go measure that puppy. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:33:44 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Powersonic battery experience From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" So how does one measure internal resistance easily?....Connect it to a load and accuratly measure volts and amp? Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Powersonic battery experience --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" --> At 09:45 AM 5/13/2005 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Chalmers" > > > >I just did the annual battery replacement on my Q200. Thought I'd pass >along my experience... > >I have used the Powersonic PS330-NB for 5 years - changed out for a new >one every year - and it worked great. However, I just replaced it again >during the condition inspection and the new one could barely turn the >engine over. I found that the battery had a high internal resistance - >much higher than any of the previous ones. I assumed it was a bad >battery and ordered another. The replacement had the same problem - >high internal resistance. I then weighed both new batteries and they >were only 21.5lb, not the 26.5lb that the previous batteries weighed >and that the spec sheet calls out. The battery supplier said they are >the cheapest batteries they sell, come from different factories in >China, and they can't control the quality. I bought a Yuasa instead - >same price and it works as well as the old Powersonics. > >Maybe this was just a bad batch but my new philosophy is not to trust a >new battery until it's been weighed, load tested and capacity tested. I >will probably also test every year rather than replacing since I now >have the equipment. I'm using load tester KAL4260 ($50) and capacity >tester Bob has written about from WestMountainRadio.com (~$100) Good data . . . and some excellent deductions. IF one depends on a battery for some standards of performance, then the ONLY philosophy that guarantees your wishes will be met is by TESTING. I don't care who's brand is on the battery, how well it ran in my hangar mate's airplane, or what you've seen in the TV ads promoting the product. David's weight measurements alone were a very strong suggestion that the old and new batteries were very different. The lead acid battery technology delivers so many watt-hours per pound of reactant plus-minus some minor performance tweaks between brands. The supplier indicates that the batteries are essentially a re-stickered product of unknown origins. That doesn't automatically make any product good, bad or otherwise, just a candidate for healthy skepticism. I've taken the el-cheeso 17 a.h. battery out of some hardware store portable power units that performed very well initially . . . and David tells us you can buy a turkey right out of the box. When in doubt, or if it really matters to you, go measure that puppy. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:19:50 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio noise problem From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I have put up with this particular problem for the last 5 years and soon I will be selling the plane so time to get it fixed. Symptoms: I get ingnition "type" noise through my radio...Not the intercom. Volume of noise goes up and down with volume knob. No noise when the engine is first fired up...(alternator not charging) Noise switches on when alternator does (about 2000 engine rpm to first excite alternator) Seems to be somewhat modified when strobes are running. In line (power lead) 20A RS noise filter helps, but only a little. I am thinking this sounds like a bad ground on the coax? Any tips for fault finding? Thanks Frank ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:25:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Powersonic battery experience --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:29 PM 5/13/2005 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > >So how does one measure internal resistance easily?....Connect it to a >load and accuratly measure volts and amp? > >Frank This is usually done indirectly. The battery tester we use in our shop is the Autometer SB-5. See: http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=ACC-SB-5 This has an adjustable load bank that you use to load the battery down to and hold at 9 volts for 15 seconds and then read the load current at that time. It should be greater that what's needed to crank you engine. 200A is a battery that's about ready to be tossed for cranking ability. A new battery will run 400 to 800A depending on capacity and technology. After you've ascertained that it will start the engine, then you need to know if it will run your endurance bus for what ever time interval meets your mission requirements. For myself, I would expect the battery to run the e-bus for duration of fuel aboard . . . Yours may be more or less depending on how much 'stuff' is on your e-bus considered along with how you'll use the airplane. You can make accurate capacity determinations for your ship's battery with a device like: http://www.westmountainradio.com/CBA_ham.htm This is the cap-meter I used to evaluate the various 9v batteries at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/9vBatteryTests.jpg This device comes with all the software and hardware needed to evaluate a wide range of battery products. If you have a Z-13 installation, battery capacity is less of an issue and you can generally run the battery until it refuses to crank the engine any more. There are no fixed solutions for battery choice and maintenance but there are logical plans by which you can match your battery's performance against your personal design goals. Seem like a LOT of fuss over a battery? Yup, it sure is. If you don't have the interest or $time$ to invest in equipment and testing, the buy an inexpensive battery and just put a new one in every year. For the majority of builders, this philosophy is much more cost effective than getting set up to do exploratory surgery on your battery every 6 months. Better yet, run Z-13/8 and just flog it 'til it dies. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:43:22 PM PST US From: "czechsix@juno.com" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery capacity degradation --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "czechsix@juno.com" Guys, Has anyone ever done research or seen any numbers published by battery manufacturers on the average rate of capacity degradation over the battery's useful life? I know each battery is different and is of course affected by the environent it lives in, how much abuse it gets, how it is recharged, etc.....perhaps there is so much variation that it's meaningless to speculate. My reason for asking has to do with the small gel cell battery I am using to back up one of my elec. ignition systems. I will probably rotate it out every two years but I'm wondering what kind of capacity I should expect out of it at the end of the two year period. For example it is rated at 2.9 ah at a typical discharge rate of about 1 amp (this is what the Lightspeed system draws at cruise rpms). So I would expect it to last almost 3 hours when new and fully charged. But from an operational perspective, how much should I "derate" the capacity? Would I be pretty safe counting on at least 1 hour of en gine operation after it's two years old (i.e. should it have at least 1/3 of its rated capacity remaining by then)? As a side note, I have no intention of using my backup battery to get to my destination.....my only reason for a backup battery is to aid in starting and as a last resort in case my main electrical system craps out entirely (battery lead breaks off, etc etc....). With a dark panel I'd be looking for a place to land pretty soon, and the backup battery would only need to get me on the ground at an airport where hopefully I can make repairs. But I'd like to determine a reasonable time limit in the unlikely event I ever need to use it, hence the above questions.... Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A N2D almost done wiring..... ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:30 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Powersonic battery experience From: "David Chalmers" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Chalmers" I used a cheap battery tester (KAL4260) that just applies a fixed resistance across the battery - it claims to be a 100A test. The Powersonics were about 12.9V open circuit. The good battery dropped to 11.2V when the load was applied and rose slowly over 10 seconds (I assume the resistor was increasing resistance as it got hot?) The bad battery dropped to 10.5V. I have no way of measuring more than 10Amps so I can't tell exactly what the internal resistance is - just what a good battery looks like with this tester. Maybe someone can explain this: If I take 12.9 - 11.2 I get 1.7V. Assuming the current is around 100A - that would be 17milliohms. Both the good Powersonic and the Yuasa batteries dropped to 11.2V and both claim 8mohm. What's up with that? David Chalmers -----Original Message----- From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) [mailto:frank.hinde@hp.com] Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Powersonic battery experience --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" So how does one measure internal resistance easily?....Connect it to a load and accuratly measure volts and amp? Frank ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:10 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery capacity degradation --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:39 PM 5/13/2005 +0000, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "czechsix@juno.com" > > > >Guys, > >Has anyone ever done research or seen any numbers published by battery >manufacturers on the average rate of capacity degradation over the >battery's useful life? I know each battery is different and is of course >affected by the environent it lives in, how much abuse it gets, how it is >recharged, etc.....perhaps there is so much variation that it's >meaningless to speculate. My reason for asking has to do with the small >gel cell battery I am using to back up one of my elec. ignition >systems. I will probably rotate it out every two years but I'm wondering >what kind of capacity I should expect out of it at the end of the two year >period. For example it is rated at 2.9 ah at a typical discharge rate of >about 1 amp (this is what the Lightspeed system draws at cruise rpms). So >I would expect it to last almost 3 hours when new and fully charged. But >from an operational perspective, how much should I "derate" the >capacity? Would I be pretty safe counting on at least 1 hour of engine >operation after it's two years old (i.e. should it have at least 1/3 of >its rated capacity remaining by then)? Trying to answer that is like trying to predict how many pounds of tomatoes you're going to get from any particular bush this year. Batteries are virtual living creatures. Store one on a maintainer in a cool environment and do a deep-discharge cap check every year and it's a sure bet you're going to see the capacity INCREASE for the first few years and probably be 90% or better after 10 years. Leave the master switch on for a week and unless you've got the $time$, patience and tools to try a chemical resurrection, it's another sure bet that you've got a really heavy doorstop. Your experience should fall somewhere between these two extremes. I have 33 a.h. and 17 a.h. instrumentation batteries that are 3-5 years old that have been deep discharged many times in service but very quickly recharged and maintained. Most are testing at 90% of capacity for a 20 hour rate and 80% at a 4 hour rate. The short response to your question is that the answer is not "researchable" . . . any more than one can predict your tomato harvest without knowing a LOT of details about the original quality of the battery and what it experienced in terms of use and abuse since new. Your experience may show virtually any longevity you can imagine but the bottom line is that nothing replaces periodic replacement to avoid $time$ and $resources$ to test -or- do the tests. >As a side note, I have no intention of using my backup battery to get to >my destination.....my only reason for a backup battery is to aid in >starting and as a last resort in case my main electrical system craps out >entirely (battery lead breaks off, etc etc....). With a dark panel I'd be >looking for a place to land pretty soon, and the backup battery would only >need to get me on the ground at an airport where hopefully I can make >repairs. But I'd like to determine a reasonable time limit in the >unlikely event I ever need to use it, hence the above questions.... Why not run a Z-13 system with p-mags and quite worrying about batteries all together? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:16:55 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Signal Sourcing for GPS/NAV From: Jim.Piavis@sybase.com 05/13/2005 04:13:24 PM --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim.Piavis@sybase.com I'm starting to plan out the panel for my RV-7 and need a little help here. The current plan is dual BM G3s, Garmin 530 and an SL30 for secondary backup. Also planning a GI-106A for backup/secondary CDI/GS. One G3 will be used as ADI and the other eHSI, but both have capability to display CDI/GS. The question is about signal direction to the display units. All three units (G3s and 106) have the capability to display input signals from both 530 and SL30. I'm pretty much a rookie at this, but what would be the best switching arrangement? Initial thought was to direct 530 to the G3 to be used for eHSI, and then have the 106 switch between 530 (NAV and GPS) and the SL30 NAV signals. This leaves out the G3 used for ADI. Jim -7 Fuse ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:49 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Powersonic battery experience --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:35 PM 5/13/2005 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Chalmers" > > > >I used a cheap battery tester (KAL4260) that just applies a fixed >resistance across the battery - it claims to be a 100A test. The >Powersonics were about 12.9V open circuit. The good battery dropped to >11.2V when the load was applied and rose slowly over 10 seconds (I assume >the resistor was increasing resistance as it got hot?) The bad battery >dropped to 10.5V. I have no way of measuring more than 10Amps so I can't >tell exactly what the internal resistance is - just what a good battery >looks like with this tester. > >Maybe someone can explain this: If I take 12.9 - 11.2 I get 1.7V. Assuming >the current is around 100A - that would be 17milliohms. Both the good >Powersonic and the Yuasa batteries dropped to 11.2V and both claim 8mohm. >What's up with that? Unless you pull of what is commonly referred to as "surface charge" your delta-e value will be artificially high which drives up apparent Rint. See: http://homepage.sunrise.ch/mysunrise/joerg.hau/mot/batt.html for a rational approach to battery internal impedance measurements. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:32:04 PM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Powersonic battery experience --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" Did you measure the voltage directly across the battery terminals? Or did you measure it using the tester which no doubt has leads to connect to the battery that have some resistance along with the actual contact at the battery which also has some resistance. If the latter, you can recheck your results by using a separate meter that is connected directly to the battery terminals separate from the test connections - so called four point measurement where the voltage is measured using a separate device and connections from the current drawing battery tester. Dick Tasker David Chalmers wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Chalmers" > > >I used a cheap battery tester (KAL4260) that just applies a fixed resistance across the battery - it claims to be a 100A test. The Powersonics were about 12.9V open circuit. The good battery dropped to 11.2V when the load was applied and rose slowly over 10 seconds (I assume the resistor was increasing resistance as it got hot?) The bad battery dropped to 10.5V. I have no way of measuring more than 10Amps so I can't tell exactly what the internal resistance is - just what a good battery looks like with this tester. > >Maybe someone can explain this: If I take 12.9 - 11.2 I get 1.7V. Assuming the current is around 100A - that would be 17milliohms. Both the good Powersonic and the Yuasa batteries dropped to 11.2V and both claim 8mohm. What's up with that? > >David Chalmers > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) [mailto:frank.hinde@hp.com] >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Powersonic battery experience > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > >So how does one measure internal resistance easily?....Connect it to a >load and accuratly measure volts and amp? > >Frank > > > > -- ---- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. ---- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:56 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Powersonic battery experience From: "David Chalmers" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Chalmers" Yes, I measured the voltage directly at the terminals. I just tried it again after removing the 'surface charge' but it didn't make much difference. The open circuit voltage was reduced to 12.7V (2 minutes after pulling 100A for 10 seconds). That makes 12.7 - 11.2 = 1.5V -> 15 milliohms. Must still be missing something. David Chalmers -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Richard E. Tasker Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Powersonic battery experience --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" Did you measure the voltage directly across the battery terminals? Or did you measure it using the tester which no doubt has leads to connect to the battery that have some resistance along with the actual contact at the battery which also has some resistance. If the latter, you can recheck your results by using a separate meter that is connected directly to the battery terminals separate from the test connections - so called four point measurement where the voltage is measured using a separate device and connections from the current drawing battery tester. Dick Tasker David Chalmers wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Chalmers" > > >I used a cheap battery tester (KAL4260) that just applies a fixed resistance across the battery - it claims to be a 100A test. The Powersonics were about 12.9V open circuit. The good battery dropped to 11.2V when the load was applied and rose slowly over 10 seconds (I assume the resistor was increasing resistance as it got hot?) The bad battery dropped to 10.5V. I have no way of measuring more than 10Amps so I can't tell exactly what the internal resistance is - just what a good battery looks like with this tester. > >Maybe someone can explain this: If I take 12.9 - 11.2 I get 1.7V. Assuming the current is around 100A - that would be 17milliohms. Both the good Powersonic and the Yuasa batteries dropped to 11.2V and both claim 8mohm. What's up with that? > >David Chalmers > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) [mailto:frank.hinde@hp.com] >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Powersonic battery experience > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > >So how does one measure internal resistance easily?....Connect it to a >load and accuratly measure volts and amp? > >Frank > > > > -- ---- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. ----