Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:36 AM - Trickle Chargers (Mike Lehman)
2. 04:38 AM - Re: Sudden Failure (William Bernard)
3. 05:57 AM - Re: Honeywell/Mircoswitch AMl34 (flmike)
4. 08:37 AM - Re: Re: Honeywell/Mircoswitch AMl34 (Ken Simmons)
5. 11:34 AM - Re: Trickle Chargers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 11:56 AM - Re: Trickle Chargers (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
7. 01:07 PM - Re: GI-106A Back Course ()
8. 02:03 PM - Re: Re: GI-106A Back Course (dsvs@comcast.net)
9. 02:05 PM - Re: Re: GI-106A Back Course (Stein Bruch)
10. 02:21 PM - Re: Re: GI-106A Back Course (Tim Dawson-Townsend)
11. 02:38 PM - Re: Re: GI-106A Back Course (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
12. 02:57 PM - Load Analysis (Jim.Piavis@sybase.com)
13. 03:20 PM - Re: Load Analysis (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
14. 03:51 PM - Re: Full Charge on Battery? ()
15. 07:12 PM - Re: Load Analysis (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 07:17 PM - Re: Load Analysis (rv-9a-online)
17. 07:45 PM - Re: Load Analysis (TKT wire) (Chris)
18. 09:26 PM - Starter Contactor Location on Long-EZ (Scott Winn)
19. 09:48 PM - Re: Re: Full Charge on Battery? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 09:52 PM - Re: Load Analysis (TKT wire) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Trickle Chargers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Lehman" <lehmans@sympatico.ca>
Got any unused AC adapters around? I've found that 12 VDC units will
typically trickle charge a wet cell at about 50 to 100 mA. If, after a few
days, you find the battery voltage rise becomes higher than you like, a
timer can be used to cycle the adapter. Getting fancy, a higher voltage
adapter can used with a LM317 regulator.
Mike
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
The $7.99 trickle chargers (voltage sensing) have worked great for me
for the last five years.
-----Original Message-----
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: TSaccio@aol.com
Sometime ago there was an article written on this site about low cost
battery chargers from Harbor Freight. Does anyone have information as to
the best one to buy? Tom Saccio
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Sudden Failure |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Bernard" <billbernard@worldnet.att.net>
Thanks, Bob and all. The new battery has noticably larger posts, but they
are still lead. The cables are #4 welding cable, but due to geometry issues
the one on the "+" post is pretty short where it goes through the side of
the battery box. The cables do lie pretty much parallel to the side of the
battery posts and within about 1/8" of them so the strain on the battery
posts from the cables should be minimal.
Thanks again for the help.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Sudden Failure
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 08:03 AM 5/17/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William Bernard"
> ><billbernard@worldnet.att.net>
> >
> >Bob, the electrical system did energize briefly for a few seconds, until
I
> >pressed the starter button then everything was dead again. The switch to
> >activate the e-buss had no effect (the turn coordinator and the engine
> >instruments should have started, but they did not). The electronic
ignition
> >is wired to the battery buss and the power LED did not come on.
> >
> >I replaced the battery and everything worked normally. (I was able to
borrow
> >a battery and get the plane home.) There were aboslutely no other
problems.
> >The battery showed 12+ volts at the battery shop and given the minor
tests
> >the clerk did, appeared to be normal. I did try to charge it briefly.
> >Typically, on a discharged battery, the meter on the charger will go to
> >about 6 amps and then drop back slowly. In this case, the meter went to
> >about 2 amps and was pretty steady. I suspect some sort of sudden fault
in
> >the battery itself, but have no way to test it. I don't even have the
> >battery any more.
> >
> >My main concern is to know if this is just a random failure, or if it is
> >something preventable.
> >
> >Bill
>
> It sounds very much like a mechanical failure . . . cracked conductor
> perhaps? Without a teardown inspection, we'll never know. We DO know
> that batteries are manufactured in the millions and that the vast
majority
> will perform as designed over the service life of the battery. We
> also know that most of the VSLA products are being used in stationary
> and/or relatively benign portable applications. Our use of such
products
> in aircraft is undoubtedly pushing any battery's performance envelope
> with respect to both mechanical capabilities and chemical activity.
>
> In another post, I've encouraged everyone to capture mystifying
failures
> and get them to me (or any other willing investigator) for failure
> evaluation. Without such data, the vast majority of decisions made
> on the evidence known are simple "whistles in the dark." Worse yet,
> such cases often tie brand names to failures that tend to unfairly
> reduce perceived value of the brand.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
> --
>
>
--
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Honeywell/Mircoswitch AMl34 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: flmike <flmike2001@yahoo.com>
Allied shows stock.
http://www.alliedelec.com/cart/ProductDetail.asp?SKU=642-0131&SEARCH=aml34&ID=&DESC=AML34FBA4AC01
__________________________________
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Honeywell/Mircoswitch AMl34 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ken Simmons" <ken@truckstop.com>
Thanks for the help. I finally found the same one at Newark. This one is a double
pole. That's why I couldn't find it before because I was looking for a specific
part number. Shouldn't make a difference in this application. I think this
is what NewGlasair calls their master switch. The one from Allied is cheaper
and the one from Newark is cheaper still.
Thanks.
Ken
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: flmike <flmike2001@yahoo.com>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: flmike <flmike2001@yahoo.com>
>
>Allied shows stock.
>
>http://www.alliedelec.com/cart/ProductDetail.asp?SKU=642-0131&SEARCH=aml34&ID=&DESC=AML34FBA4AC01
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Trickle Chargers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 05:36 AM 5/18/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Lehman" <lehmans@sympatico.ca>
>
>Got any unused AC adapters around? I've found that 12 VDC units will
>typically trickle charge a wet cell at about 50 to 100 mA. If, after a few
>days, you find the battery voltage rise becomes higher than you like, a
>timer can be used to cycle the adapter. Getting fancy, a higher voltage
>adapter can used with a LM317 regulator.
>
>Mike
A few years ago, I published a compendium of circuits which
suggested various power sources and techniques for long term
storage and controlled charging of batteries. Several circuits
touch on Mike's suggestion above.
If you have the goodies laying around and really want to spend
the time to assemble your own, by all means. It's an excellent
learning experience. However, please consider commercial off-the-
shelf (COTS) products that do a better job and often cost less than
the bill of materials for a DIY project. I've added the Battery Tender
data to the back of the diagrams now available at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Batteries/Charger_Maintainers.pdf
I just received a couple of Battery Tender Jr.s in the mail which
cost me right at $30 each.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Trickle Chargers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Or $7.99 from Harbor Freight...:)
www.harborfreight.com
Frank
I just received a couple of Battery Tender Jr.s in the mail which
cost me right at $30 each.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: GI-106A Back Course |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Subject: Re: GI-106A Back Course
> OC -
>
> My understanding is that the MD200 needle is directional on the back
> course. ie. If the needle is off to the right, you turn right to
> intercept. I do not know how the GI-106A needle works. My recollection of
> the CDI's of 40 years ago + or -, is that on the back course, one turns
> opposite to the needle to intercept. Of course, this is perhaps a moot
> topic for discussion because of the apparent paucity of true back course
> ILS's. John
5/18/2005
Hello John, While flying a localizer back course most pilots would find it
easier if their equipment had the capability to be put into a back course
mode because then the pilot would be turning towards the needle to get back
on the localizer center line just as they would do in a front course
approach -- one less "different thing" to remember.
Since the electronic emission pattern sent from the localizer antenna
remains the same over time, regardless of where the aircraft is located or
the what the pilot's intentions are, the pilot must take some overt physical
action (move a switch) on his equipment (normally the localizer receiver or
the autopilot / flight director) in the cockpit in order to tell that
equipment to:
1) Please move the needle such that I can fly towards it to get on the
centerline because I am attempting an inbound flight in the back course
region of the localizer -- or outbound in the front course region in order
to perform a procedure turn or get to a holding point.
2) Please turn on a light, or give me some other visual indication in the
cockpit, as a reminder that I have made a back course selection with my
equipment.
If the MD 200 has an indication on the face of the instrument, such as a
light, that shows that the pilot has made a back course mode selection one
might consider the MD 200 to be a superior indicator to the GI-106A which
has no such back course indication capability. But as far as needle
movement, both instruments would be dependent upon actuation of the back
course mode by the pilot in the equipment feeding the instrument in order to
change the mode of needle movement.
The MD 200 by itself can not determine the pilot's intentions or which
localizer region that the aircraft is flying in.
OC
PS: In the HSI's that I've flown the back course mode selection was a bit
more subtle than moving a switch. Just by virture of setting up the inbound
course desired on the HSI while flying in the localizer back course region
the equipment was smart enough to figure out what the pilot wanted and would
produce normal fly-to-the-needle-to-get-to-the-center line indications
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: GI-106A Back Course |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: dsvs@comcast.net
OC,
The HSI is no smarter, the needle is always pointed aat the transmitter. When
you are in the backcourse it points behind the ac nose and this corrects for the
"backwards" needle. Don
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
> To: <bakerocb@cox.net>
> Subject: Re: GI-106A Back Course
>
>
> > OC -
> >
> > My understanding is that the MD200 needle is directional on the back
> > course. ie. If the needle is off to the right, you turn right to
> > intercept. I do not know how the GI-106A needle works. My recollection of
> > the CDI's of 40 years ago + or -, is that on the back course, one turns
> > opposite to the needle to intercept. Of course, this is perhaps a moot
> > topic for discussion because of the apparent paucity of true back course
> > ILS's. John
>
> 5/18/2005
>
> Hello John, While flying a localizer back course most pilots would find it
> easier if their equipment had the capability to be put into a back course
> mode because then the pilot would be turning towards the needle to get back
> on the localizer center line just as they would do in a front course
> approach -- one less "different thing" to remember.
>
> Since the electronic emission pattern sent from the localizer antenna
> remains the same over time, regardless of where the aircraft is located or
> the what the pilot's intentions are, the pilot must take some overt physical
> action (move a switch) on his equipment (normally the localizer receiver or
> the autopilot / flight director) in the cockpit in order to tell that
> equipment to:
>
> 1) Please move the needle such that I can fly towards it to get on the
> centerline because I am attempting an inbound flight in the back course
> region of the localizer -- or outbound in the front course region in order
> to perform a procedure turn or get to a holding point.
>
> 2) Please turn on a light, or give me some other visual indication in the
> cockpit, as a reminder that I have made a back course selection with my
> equipment.
>
> If the MD 200 has an indication on the face of the instrument, such as a
> light, that shows that the pilot has made a back course mode selection one
> might consider the MD 200 to be a superior indicator to the GI-106A which
> has no such back course indication capability. But as far as needle
> movement, both instruments would be dependent upon actuation of the back
> course mode by the pilot in the equipment feeding the instrument in order to
> change the mode of needle movement.
>
> The MD 200 by itself can not determine the pilot's intentions or which
> localizer region that the aircraft is flying in.
>
> OC
>
> PS: In the HSI's that I've flown the back course mode selection was a bit
> more subtle than moving a switch. Just by virture of setting up the inbound
> course desired on the HSI while flying in the localizer back course region
> the equipment was smart enough to figure out what the pilot wanted and would
> produce normal fly-to-the-needle-to-get-to-the-center line indications
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: GI-106A Back Course |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
The MD-200-306 operates as you require below. Their manual nearly states
verbatim for operation as you noted below. Also, that indicator has the
"BC" annunciation on the face of it as wel.
Just as an aside, you guys do realize the GI-102/106A and the MD-200 202/203
& 206/207 are all the same instrument.
Just my 2 cents as usual!
Cheers,
Stein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
bakerocb@cox.net
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: GI-106A Back Course
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Subject: Re: GI-106A Back Course
5/18/2005
1) Please move the needle such that I can fly towards it to get on the
centerline because I am attempting an inbound flight in the back course
region of the localizer -- or outbound in the front course region in order
to perform a procedure turn or get to a holding point.
2) Please turn on a light, or give me some other visual indication in the
cockpit, as a reminder that I have made a back course selection with my
equipment.
If the MD 200 has an indication on the face of the instrument, such as a
light, that shows that the pilot has made a back course mode selection one
might consider the MD 200 to be a superior indicator to the GI-106A which
has no such back course indication capability. But as far as needle
movement, both instruments would be dependent upon actuation of the back
course mode by the pilot in the equipment feeding the instrument in order to
change the mode of needle movement.
The MD 200 by itself can not determine the pilot's intentions or which
localizer region that the aircraft is flying in.
OC
PS: In the HSI's that I've flown the back course mode selection was a bit
more subtle than moving a switch. Just by virture of setting up the inbound
course desired on the HSI while flying in the localizer back course region
the equipment was smart enough to figure out what the pilot wanted and would
produce normal fly-to-the-needle-to-get-to-the-center line indications
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: GI-106A Back Course |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend" <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
The very nature of the geometry of an HSI sets you up well for backcourse approaches
if you follow the correct procedure.
The real challenge is for those without an HSI, who must use a conventional CDI
. . .
TDT
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Stein
Bruch
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: GI-106A Back Course
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
The MD-200-306 operates as you require below. Their manual nearly states
verbatim for operation as you noted below. Also, that indicator has the
"BC" annunciation on the face of it as wel.
Just as an aside, you guys do realize the GI-102/106A and the MD-200 202/203
& 206/207 are all the same instrument.
Just my 2 cents as usual!
Cheers,
Stein.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
bakerocb@cox.net
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: GI-106A Back Course
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Subject: Re: GI-106A Back Course
5/18/2005
1) Please move the needle such that I can fly towards it to get on the
centerline because I am attempting an inbound flight in the back course
region of the localizer -- or outbound in the front course region in order
to perform a procedure turn or get to a holding point.
2) Please turn on a light, or give me some other visual indication in the
cockpit, as a reminder that I have made a back course selection with my
equipment.
If the MD 200 has an indication on the face of the instrument, such as a
light, that shows that the pilot has made a back course mode selection one
might consider the MD 200 to be a superior indicator to the GI-106A which
has no such back course indication capability. But as far as needle
movement, both instruments would be dependent upon actuation of the back
course mode by the pilot in the equipment feeding the instrument in order to
change the mode of needle movement.
The MD 200 by itself can not determine the pilot's intentions or which
localizer region that the aircraft is flying in.
OC
PS: In the HSI's that I've flown the back course mode selection was a bit
more subtle than moving a switch. Just by virture of setting up the inbound
course desired on the HSI while flying in the localizer back course region
the equipment was smart enough to figure out what the pilot wanted and would
produce normal fly-to-the-needle-to-get-to-the-center line indications
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: GI-106A Back Course |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
While we're on the subject of CDI's.
Does anyone have any experience of using the BMA glass screen CDI driven
from the Nav radio in actual IFR conditions?
Does it really work?
Frank
Trying to decide on instruments for an IFR RV7.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Dawson-Townsend
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: GI-106A Back Course
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tim Dawson-Townsend"
--> <Tdawson@Avidyne.com>
The very nature of the geometry of an HSI sets you up well for
backcourse approaches if you follow the correct procedure.
The real challenge is for those without an HSI, who must use a
conventional CDI . . .
TDT
Message 12
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05/18/2005 02:56:20 PM
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim.Piavis@sybase.com
I'm in the process of working load analysis on my anticipated RV-7
electrical system. From looking through the archives, I'm not quire sure on
the following:
When running a load analysis for my electrical system, for each equipment
item, there's usually a steady state current and a max current. For the
purpose of calculating the total loads, do I use the max or steady state?
Com/Navs are a good example, receive-only is fairly low, then jumps up on
transmit.
Thanks,
Jim
Message 13
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Depends if you intend to transmit all the time I guess?...:)
The steady state loads for sizing the alternator and wiring...Use the
transient loads only if the load is sustained...say more than 10
seconds?...That should give you a cut off.
The little bit of extra the alt needs to give will be taken care by the
fact you will oversize the alt by some margin...Say 5amps minimum.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Jim.Piavis@sybase.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Load Analysis
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim.Piavis@sybase.com
I'm in the process of working load analysis on my anticipated RV-7
electrical system. From looking through the archives, I'm not quire sure
on the following:
When running a load analysis for my electrical system, for each
equipment item, there's usually a steady state current and a max
current. For the purpose of calculating the total loads, do I use the
max or steady state?
Com/Navs are a good example, receive-only is fairly low, then jumps up
on transmit.
Thanks,
Jim
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Full Charge on Battery? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <davgray@sbcglobal.net>
I chanced apon this site. The suggestion that an Odyssey Battery may not be getting
a full charge unless it receives a voltage of 14.7 volts is made. If true,
this could be a problem for electrically dependent engines.
http://batterytender.com/notice_odyssey.php?osCsid88978aa7c540510e2215932c22b512e5
Any clarification would be appreciated.
Gary
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Load Analysis |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 02:56 PM 5/18/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim.Piavis@sybase.com
>
>I'm in the process of working load analysis on my anticipated RV-7
>electrical system. From looking through the archives, I'm not quire sure on
>the following:
>
>When running a load analysis for my electrical system, for each equipment
>item, there's usually a steady state current and a max current. For the
>purpose of calculating the total loads, do I use the max or steady state?
>Com/Navs are a good example, receive-only is fairly low, then jumps up on
>transmit.
STEADY states for load analysis, MAX load for wire and fuse/CB
sizing.
On similar topic, I was doing a lunchtime learning session for
some of my fellow RAC employees and the question was asked
about how fragile is a wire? If you're set up to protect a
22AWG wire at 5A . . . what is the risk at say, 10A? or more?
I've read conversation on this matter numerous times on the list,
folks are belabored of the impression that wire will poof and
smoke at just over the "rated" current.
Just for grins, I went to the bench and rigged a segment
of 22AWG Tefzel wire between two c-clamps, attached a
thermocouple and biased the wire up in 5A steps to 20A.
The picture at . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/20A_22AWG.jpg
was taken after 10 minutes operation at 20A! The wire
temperature was just over 100C. The wire was rated for
150C. I was going to increase the current until the
wire smoked but when I tried to push 25A through it,
the breaker on my bench supply feeder popped. I need
to run a 220 line to the bench supply before I can
finish the experiment. Suffice it to say that fears
about burning wires when even severely overloaded
with respect to breaker size and wire "rating" are
not well founded. These wires are quite robust and
in fact, we depend on those qualities for crafting
VERY robust electrical systems.
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Load Analysis |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rv-9a-online <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
Jim, it's good to analyze both.
The sum of steady state loads should be about 80% or less of your
alternator rating, in 'normal' configuration (typical worst case flight
such as night operations). Any excess capacity is good for charging
your battery.
Worst case transient loads, such as your comm in tx mode can be handled
by the battery.
If the worst case transient is less than your alternator rating, your
battery will be somewhat less stressed.
Vern Little
Jim.Piavis@sybase.com wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim.Piavis@sybase.com
>
>I'm in the process of working load analysis on my anticipated RV-7
>electrical system. From looking through the archives, I'm not quire sure on
>the following:
>
>When running a load analysis for my electrical system, for each equipment
>item, there's usually a steady state current and a max current. For the
>purpose of calculating the total loads, do I use the max or steady state?
>Com/Navs are a good example, receive-only is fairly low, then jumps up on
>transmit.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jim
>
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Load Analysis (TKT wire) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris" <toaster73@earthlink.net>
Speaking of wire is TKT an available wire for home building or is it
expensive and not worth it?
Thanks
Chris Lucas
RV-10
#40072
wings
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Load Analysis
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 02:56 PM 5/18/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jim.Piavis@sybase.com
>>
>>I'm in the process of working load analysis on my anticipated RV-7
>>electrical system. From looking through the archives, I'm not quire sure
>>on
>>the following:
>>
>>When running a load analysis for my electrical system, for each equipment
>>item, there's usually a steady state current and a max current. For the
>>purpose of calculating the total loads, do I use the max or steady state?
>>Com/Navs are a good example, receive-only is fairly low, then jumps up on
>>transmit.
>
> STEADY states for load analysis, MAX load for wire and fuse/CB
> sizing.
>
> On similar topic, I was doing a lunchtime learning session for
> some of my fellow RAC employees and the question was asked
> about how fragile is a wire? If you're set up to protect a
> 22AWG wire at 5A . . . what is the risk at say, 10A? or more?
> I've read conversation on this matter numerous times on the list,
> folks are belabored of the impression that wire will poof and
> smoke at just over the "rated" current.
>
> Just for grins, I went to the bench and rigged a segment
> of 22AWG Tefzel wire between two c-clamps, attached a
> thermocouple and biased the wire up in 5A steps to 20A.
> The picture at . . .
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/20A_22AWG.jpg
>
> was taken after 10 minutes operation at 20A! The wire
> temperature was just over 100C. The wire was rated for
> 150C. I was going to increase the current until the
> wire smoked but when I tried to push 25A through it,
> the breaker on my bench supply feeder popped. I need
> to run a 220 line to the bench supply before I can
> finish the experiment. Suffice it to say that fears
> about burning wires when even severely overloaded
> with respect to breaker size and wire "rating" are
> not well founded. These wires are quite robust and
> in fact, we depend on those qualities for crafting
> VERY robust electrical systems.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Starter Contactor Location on Long-EZ |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Winn <sbwinn@gmail.com>
Hi,
I am utilizing a Z-13 diagram in my Long-EZ. I am trying to decide on
the location of the starter contactor, if it should be on the firewall
or in the nose with the batteries. Looking at the Z13 diagram there
is nothing to indicate that the 4AWG wire going from the battery
contactor to the starter contactor has to be especially short. This
would indicate to me that the large wire can be run the length of the
plane with the contactor on the firewall. I am actually planning to
run 2AWG because of the extra length. This allows me to connect the
alternator output to the starter contactor so I don't have to make two
runs of large wire to hook up both the alternator and the starter. If
the concactor was in the nose, I'd have to run a second large wire
just for the alternator.
My concern is that I don't see any protection for the 4AWG wire that
runs between the starter contactor and battery contactor. Is it
really OK to string an unprotected wire capable of delivering 100+
amps all the way down the plane?
Secondly, my engine has an automotive starter conversion on it. Is
there any disadavantage to using the built in soleniod instead of an
external contactor? The starter is off of a Toyota and the soleniods
are quite reliable. Obviously if I need to put the contactor in the
nose then I'll have to use an external one.
Thanks for your thoughts!
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Full Charge on Battery? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 06:36 PM 5/18/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <davgray@sbcglobal.net>
>
>I chanced apon this site. The suggestion that an Odyssey Battery may not
>be getting a full charge unless it receives a voltage of 14.7 volts is
>made. If true, this could be a problem for electrically dependent engines.
>
>http://batterytender.com/notice_odyssey.php?osCsid88978aa7c540510e2215932c22b512e5
>
>Any clarification would be appreciated.
The 14.4 to 14.7 value is recommended for rapid recharge
of the battery . . . and probably assumes that the battery
was deeply discharged before the recharge cycle begins.
The charging recommendations publication for Odyssey can
be found at . . .
http://www.enersysreservepower.com/odycharg_a.asp
. . . where we read that the fast recharge voltage
should not be sustained for more than 24 hours. They
recommend reduction to a "standby" charge value of
13.6 to 13.8 volts. A value that is consistent with
the rest of the lead-acid battery industry. One could
use the numbers on this chart for ANY lead-acid technology
except that I would say that you don't leave the fast-charge
level on for more thank, say one tank of fuel duration
or much less than 24 hours. Any battery in an airplane
should be fully recharged in about one hour after
starting the engine. This is the reason for the "75%
rule" on alternator sizing in certified ships. If one
has used a max of 45A on a 60A machine to run the
airplane, you have 15A left over to quickly recharge
a deeply discharged battery. Boosting the voltage
to 14.7 increases the battery's willingness to accept
energy . . . but this level should not be maintained
indefinitely.
Check out page 8 of . . .
http://www.enersysreservepower.com/documents/US_GPL_SG_001_0303.pdf
and you see the same kinds of fast charge and float
voltage ranges. Same goes for Panasonic where on
page 3 of . . .
http://www.enersysreservepower.com/documents/US_GPL_SG_001_0303.pdf
. . . we find 13.7 as a recommended float charge and 14.7
as a recommended fast charge voltage at 25C.
Bottom line is that ANY lead acid battery by ANY manufacturer
will ultimately achieve 100% charge at 13.8V at 25C. It'a all
a matter of how long you want to wait. If you're in a hurry,
then jack the voltage up a tad for a SHORT period of time to
speed up the recharge process. If your system is not endowed
with a automatic recharge/float voltage controller . . . well
shucks. Guess we'll have to compromise and set the critter up
for 14.2 and quit worrying about it. That's the lead-acid
set-point of choice for light aircraft since Duane Wallace
bolted the first batteries into the C-140/C-170 products nearly
60 years ago.
With respect to the writer's objections about "Pulse Current
Amps" take a peek at . . .
http://www.enersysreservepower.com/ody_b.asp?routine=ody_dchrg&brandID=5
The graphical data for battery performance under various loads
is quite specific and yields factual engineering data. The
fact that Odyssey quantifies their batteries in a different manner
than some industry standards doesn't automatically mean that
their product is inferior or that the company is trying to
obscure any facts as to their product's performance.
Take a peek at . . .
http://www.batteryweb.com/faq.cfm
. . . where we find the following definitions:
Cold Cranking Amps (CCA): "Discharge load measured in amps that a
fully charged battery at 0 F can deliver for 30 seconds
while maintaining its voltage above 7.2V"
Hmmm . . . Odyssey gives similar data but at 25C. Could it
be that the majority of Odyssey's customers use their
batteries as more mundane temperatures wherein the high
discharge rate performance data is more useful when plotted
at the higher temperatures? Don't know. But I doubt that
Odyssey believes they are competing with Die Hards and
boat batteries. And what's all this 7.2 volt stuff anyhow?
B&C has quantified their batteries for a 15 second dump
based on dragging the battery down to and holding it at
8.5 volts. This is easily accomplished with the tester that
both B&C and the 'Connection use in their shops. See . . .
http://www.batteryweb.com/autometer-detail.cfm?Model=SB-5
Does that mean that B&C's marketing numbers are
bad or that they're trying to obscure any facts? No, I picked
that value 15 years ago because I didn't know of any starters
that would continue to crank an engine all the way down to
7.2 volts . . . And guess what? We DON'T do that test at
0C.
Reserve Capacity (RC): "Number of minutes a fully charged battery
at 80.F can be discharged at 25 amps until the voltage drops below
10.5 volts."
Well fooey, my e-bus runs only 5 amps . . . should I be bent
out of shape that Odyssey or any other manufacturer doesn't
give me a 5A value instead of the 25A value? Only if I'm
an ignorant consumer likely to make decisions based on a
particular manufacturer's marketing hype. If I'm a designer
who deals in engineering facts and data, then what ever data the
manufacturer supplies is GOOD data as long as it's accurate.
If I need ADDITIONAL data plotted in some other venue, then it's my
responsibility go get that data myself or request it from
the manufacturer. Most have much more data than they publish
and will supply it as needed.
Deltran's position on Odyssey products is not well researched.
It does not mirror any considered understanding of lead-acid
technology in general nor Odyssey's engineering and marketing
philosophies in particular.
The short answer is, "I'm not going to loose any sleep over it."
Bob . . .
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Load Analysis (TKT wire) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:44 PM 5/18/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chris" <toaster73@earthlink.net>
>
>Speaking of wire is TKT an available wire for home building or is it
>expensive and not worth it?
What would be the advantage of using it for house wiring? You
can purchase any kind of wire from anybody and use it any way
you like with complete confidence as long as you observe the
products limitations. But it might be an action akin to running
130 avgas in a mogas rated engine . . . expensive but doesn't
get you any more snort . . .
Bob . . .
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