---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 05/22/05: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:06 AM - about those 1965 radios (colyncase on earthlink) 2. 08:33 AM - Re: Avionics Masters (about those 1965 radios) (Eric M. Jones) 3. 09:02 AM - Wiring question (Darwin N. Barrie) 4. 11:07 AM - Cranking the first time, melted wires (owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com) 5. 11:10 AM - Re: Wiring question (John Schroeder) 6. 01:08 PM - Re: Cranking the first time, melted wires (Eric M. Jones) 7. 01:45 PM - Re: Re: Cranking the first time, melted wires (brucebell74) 8. 02:04 PM - where to find steady state power usage for avionics (colyncase on earthlink) 9. 02:08 PM - Transorb (Carlos Trigo) 10. 02:35 PM - Re: Re:Shielded wiret (Franz Fux) 11. 02:58 PM - Re: Cranking the first time, melted wires (Robert McCallum) 12. 03:06 PM - Re: Transorbs (Eric M. Jones) 13. 05:46 PM - Re: Re:Shielded wiret (Jim Stone) 14. 07:32 PM - Re: Re:Shielded wiret (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 07:41 PM - Re: about those 1965 radios (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:00 AM PST US From: "colyncase on earthlink" Subject: AeroElectric-List: about those 1965 radios --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "colyncase on earthlink" Bob, I've been digging through the archives trying to find everything about Avionics Masters, a subject I'm sure you're tired of but I am still trying to get my mind around. Anyway, in several messages you mention that in 1965 there were a lot of radio deaths that were attributed (apparently without reason) to power issues on the bus. So did they ever figure out what caused all those deaths? ...I'm supposing that it was not the power quality. Also, some of the threads appear to have been concluded elsewhere. I was particularly interested in Ed and Shannon's system, which you threatened to critique thoroughly but I couldn't find where the critique actually happened.. thanks, Colyn Case L IVP ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:33:05 AM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Avionics Masters (about those 1965 radios) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "colyncase on earthlink" >.... in 1965 there were a lot of radio deaths that were attributed (apparently without reason) to power issues on the bus. So did they ever figure out >what caused all those deaths?...I'msupposing that it was not the power quality. Also, some of the threads appear to have been concluded >elsewhere. >Colyn Case I'll answer the Avionics Master question if YOU tell me why so many Lancair pilots have the same first and last initials? It's gotten so that when one of my customers says his name is Luke Lugnuts, I already know what he's building. Now for my part--- Avionics Master were invented so that the radio settings would be the same when you powered down and back up. Then they started blowing up early transistors so the Avionics Master was still a good idea. The original purpose still makes a lot of sense and I have been leaning toward using the A.M. switch for its convenience. But if you plan on protecting the radios from "bad power", I don't think it's a great idea to depend on a switch. The day will come when you'll forget. My solution---transorbs at the sources of inductive spikes---and a spike catcher on the inputs to the expensive boxes. Cheap insurance. And don't forget the starter solenoid. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones@charter.net ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:02:32 AM PST US From: "Darwin N. Barrie" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wiring question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" Scenario- Approach systems wiring hub (Garmin Pro series) EXP switch panel. Avionics that will be installed. I do not have the avionics yet but have installed the trays. Also do not have the install manuals for the avionics. My issue is whether the power wires for each piece of equipment (same amp rating) can be joined to one appropriate circuit on the EXP bus? Garmin 340 audio panel - two power wires labeled as 5amp Garmin 430 GPS - Two power wires labeled 10 amps 3 power wires labeled 5 amps SL 30 - one power wire labled 5 amps Garmin 330S transponder - two power wires no label but believed to be 5 amps. Everything is installed in final locations and I'm wanting to terminate some of the wires. Thanks in advance. Darwin N. Barrie P19 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:07:13 AM PST US From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cranking the first time, melted wires --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Hi all After filling up my 0-360A1A with new oil I cranked the engine the first time with removed ignition plugs to distribute the oil. After 10-20 seconds it smelled bad and I saw a melting jacket of a thin wire. As I analyzed the problem I found out that the overloaded wire was the ground of the alternator field. There was no power applied to the regulator. Is there a bad ground?! I tested the resistance with an ohmmeter from the battery ground to the starter and it shows 0.00 ohm. My battery is on the firewall and I have a ground bus on the firewall connected with a 2AWG cable (12?). From there I run the cable (19?) to the engine case I used a mounting hole at the back housing next to the oil refill. I removed the paint to have a good metal to metal connection. I do not know what else could be checked or even what was the reason? Thanks in advance Daniel Lancair 360, Switzerland ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:10:26 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wiring question From: "John Schroeder" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" Darwin - My advice is to run a separate power and ground for each box. If one box fails and blows the cb/fuse, you won't lose all your avionics. This also goes for the boxes that have dual functions - one power and one ground for each function. The fact that you feel you need to do what you proposed tells me that the EXP buss may be marginal for your system. It is a nice piece of equipment, but it sure constrains ones options for wiring the bird with some built-in flexibility. I'm not sure you have the numbers down for the power circuits on the equipment you listed below. I know for sure that the SL-30 has one power and one ground for the nav and for the comm side of the box. Also, be aware that the tray for the SL-30 was modified sometime after it was released. We got a tray and had installed it; only to find that the box did not fit into it correctly. The 330 transponder has one power in and that is "y'd" to pins 21 & 42 in the plug at the box (after the cb/fuse). There is an optional power line if you have a reason to connect it. There are two grounds that are tied together at the plug to get one wire to the ground buss. I would download the installation manuals ASAP before doing much more planning on the avionics electrical system. If you can't find them, I have the 330, the SL-30 and the 340 that i could email you - if you have wideband internet and your ISP allows large file thru the screens. If not, I can burn a cd with them and send it to you. Hope this helps. John > > Avionics that will be installed. I do not have the avionics yet but have > installed the trays. Also do not have the install manuals for the > avionics. My issue is whether the power wires for each piece of > equipment (same amp rating) can be joined to one appropriate circuit on > the EXP bus? > > Garmin 340 audio panel - two power wires labeled as 5amp > > Garmin 430 GPS - Two power wires labeled 10 amps 3 power wires labeled 5 > amps > > SL 30 - one power wire labled 5 amps > > Garmin 330S transponder - two power wires no label but believed to be 5 > amps. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:08:17 PM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Cranking the first time, melted wires --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" >After filling up my 0-360A1A with new oil I cranked the engine the first >time with removed ignition plugs to distribute the oil. After 10-20 seconds >it smelled bad and I saw a melting jacket of a thin wire. ....I do not know what else could be checked or even what was the reason? ...Daniel Daniel, I don't know the answer but maybe melted wire is just the Lancair's way of telling you something is wrong. I do want to point out that if the alternator/regulator/battery is hooked up wrong when you crank the engine, the possibility that you fried the alternator diodes or something else is very high. The alternator depends on the battery to regulate its voltage. Disconnecting the alternator from the battery when the alternator is spinning will often fry the diodes. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones@charter.net "Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no solids in the universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute con- tinuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines." - R. Buckminster Fuller ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:45:18 PM PST US From: "brucebell74" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Cranking the first time, melted wires --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "brucebell74" Do you have a ground cable to the engine? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Cranking the first time, melted wires > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > > >>After filling up my 0-360A1A with new oil I cranked the engine the first >>time with removed ignition plugs to distribute the oil. After 10-20 >>seconds >>it smelled bad and I saw a melting jacket of a thin wire. > ....I do not know what else could be checked or even what was the reason? > ...Daniel > > Daniel, > > I don't know the answer but maybe melted wire is just the Lancair's way of > telling you something is wrong. > > I do want to point out that if the alternator/regulator/battery is hooked > up > wrong when you crank the engine, the possibility that you fried the > alternator diodes or something else is very high. > > The alternator depends on the battery to regulate its voltage. > Disconnecting > the alternator from the battery when the alternator is spinning will often > fry the diodes. > > Regards, > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge MA 01550-2705 > Phone (508) 764-2072 > Email: emjones@charter.net > > "Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes > less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe. > For example, there are no solids in the universe. There's > not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute con- > tinuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines." > > - R. Buckminster Fuller > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:04:06 PM PST US From: "colyncase on earthlink" Subject: AeroElectric-List: where to find steady state power usage for avionics --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "colyncase on earthlink" Doing my load analysis but I don't know where to get steady state power usage. e.g. If I go to Garmin's web page they don't list watts or amps for a gns530 (and if they did it would probably be the max). I dug around in the archive and didn't find what I was looking for. Does anyone have or have a pointer to this information? I need gns530, gns430, nsd1000, misc gyros thanks, Colyn Case ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:40 PM PST US Received-SPF: softfail (mta6: domain of transitioning trigo@mail.telepac.pt does not designate 85.138.30.109 as permitted sender) receiver=mta6; client_ip=85.138.30.109; envelope-from=trigo@mail.telepac.pt; From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Transorb --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" Please forgive my ignorance (not everybody on this list is an expert) but, what is a transorb ? And where can it be purchased? And how is it installed at "the source of inductive spikes" ? Thanks Carlos Trigo ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:10 PM PST US From: "Franz Fux" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re:Shielded wiret --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Franz Fux" Hi everybody, I have a question regarding the shielded wire that leads to the strobes in the Weelen system 6 for my RV7A. I would like to t interrupt the wire run and use a connector at the wing root. Two reasons for this, one is to be able to take the wing off in the future and the second one is that I cut the wire twice already and it is still to short. Would I loose the shielding effect of the wire and would I have noise interference in the future, thanks fore any comments Franz Fux RV7A wiring - -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:25 PM PST US From: Robert McCallum Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cranking the first time, melted wires --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert McCallum Daniel; It is almost a certainty that you do not have the engine casing properly grounded and what overheated the wire was starter current flowing through it. The starter is by far the heaviest load in your plane and therefore the best place for the battery ground is on the engine case. From there you run the ground to the airframe. This wire can be somewhat smaller than if it has to carry starter loads. Checking with an ohmmeter does not properly ascertain sufficient ground for your starter because of the load it draws. Your ohmmeter may well indicate zero ohms, but if this path is only an 18 gauge wire (or 16 or 14) you can rest assured that when you try to pull the hundred (or so) amps required by the starter it is going to get VERY hot very quickly even if it does measure zero ohms with a meter. (It is certainly NOT truly zero but in reality some other small value) If the path is a #4 or #2 wire with good solid connections all will be well. You may have a loose or poor connection between your batteries firewall ground and the engine case and the path of least resistance turned out to be the alternator ground which is insufficient to carry starter current. Bob McC >battery ground to the starter and it shows 0.00 ohm. >My battery is on the firewall and I have a ground bus on the firewall connected >with a 2AWG cable (12?). From there I run the cable (19?) to the engine case >I used a mounting hole at the back housing next to the oil refill. I removed >the paint to have a good metal to metal connection. > >I do not know what else could be checked or even what was the reason? > >Thanks in advance >Daniel >Lancair 360, Switzerland > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:33 PM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Transorbs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" >....what is a transorb? And where can it be purchased? And how is it installed at "the source of inductive spikes" ?........ Carlos, The recommended device is P6KE18CA bidirectional zener transient voltage suppressor from Digikey (p/n P6KE18CALFCT-ND). You can see the pdf on my website. I sell a dozen of them and the parts and hardware for attaching them on my website. http://www.periheliondesign.com/suppressors/SnapJack.pdf Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones@charter.net Ring the bells that still can ring Forget your perfect offering There is a crack in everything That's how the light gets in - - Leonard Cohen ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:07 PM PST US From: "Jim Stone" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re:Shielded wiret --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" I have connectors at my wing roots for all electrical connections, circular Cannon plugs that twist lock on and off. Just carry the strobe shield as a seperate pin. I chose to put P/S's in wingtips so only 12 Vdc goes by fuel tanks. Jim Stone Jabiru J450 (trailerable) Clearwater FL -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Franz Fux Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re:Shielded wiret --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Franz Fux" --> Hi everybody, I have a question regarding the shielded wire that leads to the strobes in the Weelen system 6 for my RV7A. I would like to t interrupt the wire run and use a connector at the wing root. Two reasons for this, one is to be able to take the wing off in the future and the second one is that I cut the wire twice already and it is still to short. Would I loose the shielding effect of the wire and would I have noise interference in the future, thanks fore any comments Franz Fux RV7A wiring - -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:46 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re:Shielded wiret --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:34 PM 6/21/2005 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Franz Fux" > > >Hi everybody, >I have a question regarding the shielded wire that leads to the strobes in >the Weelen system 6 for my RV7A. I would like to t interrupt the wire run >and use a connector at the wing root. Two reasons for this, one is to be >able to take the wing off in the future and the second one is that I cut the >wire twice already and it is still to short. Would I loose the shielding >effect of the wire and would I have noise interference in the future, >thanks fore any comments >Franz Fux RV7A wiring Not at all. Take the shield lead through the connector on it's own pin and it will be fine. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:19 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: about those 1965 radios --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:01 AM 5/22/2005 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "colyncase on earthlink" > > >Bob, > I've been digging through the archives trying to find everything > about Avionics Masters, a subject I'm sure you're tired of but I am still > trying to get my mind around. > Anyway, in several messages you mention that in 1965 there were a lot > of radio deaths that were attributed (apparently without reason) to power > issues on the bus. So did they ever figure out what caused all those > deaths? ...I'm supposing that it was not the power quality. > Also, some of the threads appear to have been concluded > elsewhere. I was particularly interested in Ed and Shannon's system, > which you threatened to critique thoroughly but I couldn't find where the > critique actually happened.. > >thanks, > >Colyn Case >L IVP How about digging around on my website instead? See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/avmaster.pdf Bob . . .