---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/30/05: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:07 AM - NiMH Batteries (Pat Salvati) 2. 07:33 AM - Re: Headset pains (bobsv35b@aol.com) 3. 07:45 AM - LRI Audio Warning Wanted (PeterHunt1@aol.com) 4. 08:42 AM - Re: Z-13/8 Drawing (Scott Winn) 5. 08:57 AM - Re: NiHM Batteries (Scott Winn) 6. 10:37 AM - Re: Re: NiHM Batteries (Dave Nellis) 7. 10:38 AM - Contactor vs Power Relay (Mark Sletten) 8. 10:52 AM - Re: NiMH Batteries (Mike Larkin) 9. 11:08 AM - Re: Contactor vs Power Relay (Dave Morris \) 10. 11:08 AM - Re: Contactor vs Power Relay (alejandroecheverria) 11. 11:09 AM - Re: Re: NiHM Batteries (alejandroecheverria) 12. 12:19 PM - Re: NiMH Batteries (DonVS) 13. 03:49 PM - Re: Charging the battery through the E-bus diode (chad-c_sip@stanfordalumni.org) 14. 05:53 PM - Cordless drill - anyone know amp hours? (Richard Riley) 15. 08:10 PM - Re: Cordless drill - anyone know amp hours? (Tom Brusehaver) 16. 09:29 PM - Re: RV-List: Dynon D-10A Ticking (Jerry Isler) 17. 09:48 PM - Re: Contactor vs Power Relay (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:55 AM PST US From: Pat Salvati Subject: AeroElectric-List: NiMH Batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Pat Salvati Is there any good reason, safety standpoint, that NiMH batteries should not be used in an aircraft. I have a dual alternator dual battery ship I'm building , NiMH battery packs come in some very attractive packaging versus 28v RG battery dimensions. The only one that I have come across is the one from B+C (7.5 AH or 11 AH) that would fit for me. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks, Pat ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:23 AM PST US From: bobsv35b@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Headset pains --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: bobsv35b@aol.com Good Morning Larry, This may not be applicable to your situation, but I did have a similar difficulty with headsets for my diminutive wife. She absolutely refused to use any headset I tried including older Bose headsets. One day at Oshkosh, she was walking past the Bose tent and they were pitching their wares by offering something to listen to that interested my little lady. After trying the Bose X headsets, she came back to our tent and informed that she wanted a set. I purchased a unit for her and she has been a happy user for the last three years. I know you stated that you wanted a passive set, but if you do not have electricity to power them, they are available with a nice long lasting small battery powered cord. I am certain we all agree that headset use is a very subjective thing, but the Bose Xs are the first ones that made my significant other happy and I do believe we had previously tried every other brand, including earlier Bose units, that anybody has ever offered! Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Ancient Aviator Stearman 3977A Downers Grove, IL -----Original Message----- From: Larry McFarland Subject: AeroElectric-List: Headset pains --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Larry McFarland Hi Guys, My wife is a small gal and the headphone bows become a vise on the ears and pain at the top of the skull after too short a time. Has anyone seen a set of headphones that are lighter and smaller that were capable of passive noise cancellation in a light enclosed aircraft? Sennheiser have a set that has a double bows but are designed for jets. Not sure if they would be correct for conventional engine noise. Any recommendations for this problem? Larry McFarland - 601HDS ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:26 AM PST US From: PeterHunt1@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: LRI Audio Warning Wanted --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: PeterHunt1@aol.com I have a Lift Reserve Indicator (LRI) and want to add an audio warning to it. Has anyone experimented with a pressure differential switch (the LRI needle operates by indicating pressure differential) to actuate a warning tone in your headset? The LRI manufacturer has told me for three years he is working on this. I am tired of waiting for something he is likely not going to develop and want to develop something on my own. Pete - Clearwater, FL RV-6, all electric panel Getting ready for first flight. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:05 AM PST US From: Scott Winn Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Z-13/8 Drawing --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Winn Chris, You want the S701-1 for the Z-13/8 master battery contactor. S701-1 and S702-1 are the same physical 4 terminal contactor device with different external wiring. B&C pre-wires them into either the -1 configuration for battery contactors, and the -2 configuration for crossfeed contactor applications. As for the low voltage warning, I also have the GRT EFIS system. I am using the B&C lightweight alernator & their regulator as well. Their regulator has a low volt warning out. The GRT EFIS has a voltage warning ability that should provide the same funcitionality. It might be nice to have an external low voltage indicator, I really think it is up to your own preference. Bob sells the board described in this Z diagram at his web site as either abare board or a kit with the parts: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AECcatalog.html --Scott San Diego ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:57:42 AM PST US From: Scott Winn Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: NiHM Batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Winn I don't think safety is going to be the biggest concern with using NiMH batteries. They have a very different charge profile than Sealed Lead Acid batteries and will require the use of a special charger or voltage regulator. I'm sure it is possible but I wouldn't know where to get the required components. Possibly standard regulators can be adapted? Another issue may be self discharge. NiMH batteries typically have a higher rate of self discharge than the Sealed Lead Acid batteries do, so just sitting they will slowly lose their charge which isn't nice if you don't fly your airplane for a while. I know that NiCD batteries heat up, explode and can catch on fire if severely overcharged. I have seen it in person. I believe NiMH also heat up as they become overcharged, I have never pushed one past the 'full' mark before, do they have the same ftype of failure if severly overcharged? ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:37:24 AM PST US From: Dave Nellis Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: NiHM Batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Nellis I fly radio control aircraft and have used NiHM batteries. They do require a dedicated charging system. A charger for NiCad's should not even be used, let alone an aircraft charging system. Dave --- Scott Winn wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Winn > > > I don't think safety is going to be the biggest > concern with using > NiMH batteries. They have a very different charge > profile than Sealed > Lead Acid batteries and will require the use of a > special charger or > voltage regulator. I'm sure it is possible but I > wouldn't know where > to get the required components. Possibly standard > regulators can be > adapted? > > Another issue may be self discharge. NiMH batteries > typically have a > higher rate of self discharge than the Sealed Lead > Acid batteries do, > so just sitting they will slowly lose their charge > which isn't nice if > you don't fly your airplane for a while. > > I know that NiCD batteries heat up, explode and can > catch on fire if > severely overcharged. I have seen it in person. I > believe NiMH also > heat up as they become overcharged, I have never > pushed one past the > 'full' mark before, do they have the same ftype of > failure if severly > overcharged? > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:38:18 AM PST US From: "Mark Sletten" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Contactor vs Power Relay --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Sletten" Bob and/or other expert, What's the difference between the Aeroelectric Connection recommended battery contactor and a high-amperage automotive power relay such as this: http://www.wiringproducts.com/?target=dept_96.html Scroll down a bit and you'll find a Bosch 75AMP power relay. This seem ideal to use in lieu of the bulky contactor and all it's associated diodes and such. What am I missing? Mark ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:52:51 AM PST US From: "Mike Larkin" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: NiMH Batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Larkin" The only down side I can think of is you would have to integrate a charger system. Also NiMH tend to loose their charger over short periods of time (two weeks to a month). Mike Larkin -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pat Salvati Subject: AeroElectric-List: NiMH Batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Pat Salvati Is there any good reason, safety standpoint, that NiMH batteries should not be used in an aircraft. I have a dual alternator dual battery ship I'm building , NiMH battery packs come in some very attractive packaging versus 28v RG battery dimensions. The only one that I have come across is the one from B+C (7.5 AH or 11 AH) that would fit for me. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks, Pat -- -- ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:08:13 AM PST US From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactor vs Power Relay --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" If you run your starter through it, what is the max current your starter will draw? Dave Morris At 12:38 PM 5/30/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Sletten" > > >Bob and/or other expert, > >What's the difference between the Aeroelectric Connection recommended >battery contactor and a high-amperage automotive power relay such as >this: http://www.wiringproducts.com/?target=dept_96.html > >Scroll down a bit and you'll find a Bosch 75AMP power relay. This seem >ideal to use in lieu of the bulky contactor and all it's associated >diodes and such. What am I missing? > >Mark > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:08:13 AM PST US From: "alejandroecheverria" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactor vs Power Relay --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "alejandroecheverria" FUCK YOU ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Sletten" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Contactor vs Power Relay > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Sletten" > > Bob and/or other expert, > > What's the difference between the Aeroelectric Connection recommended > battery contactor and a high-amperage automotive power relay such as > this: http://www.wiringproducts.com/?target=dept_96.html > > Scroll down a bit and you'll find a Bosch 75AMP power relay. This seem > ideal to use in lieu of the bulky contactor and all it's associated > diodes and such. What am I missing? > > Mark > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:00 AM PST US From: "alejandroecheverria" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: NiHM Batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "alejandroecheverria" FUCK YOU ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Nellis" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: NiHM Batteries > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Nellis > > I fly radio control aircraft and have used NiHM > batteries. They do require a dedicated charging > system. A charger for NiCad's should not even be > used, let alone an aircraft charging system. > > Dave > --- Scott Winn wrote: > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Winn > > > > > > I don't think safety is going to be the biggest > > concern with using > > NiMH batteries. They have a very different charge > > profile than Sealed > > Lead Acid batteries and will require the use of a > > special charger or > > voltage regulator. I'm sure it is possible but I > > wouldn't know where > > to get the required components. Possibly standard > > regulators can be > > adapted? > > > > Another issue may be self discharge. NiMH batteries > > typically have a > > higher rate of self discharge than the Sealed Lead > > Acid batteries do, > > so just sitting they will slowly lose their charge > > which isn't nice if > > you don't fly your airplane for a while. > > > > I know that NiCD batteries heat up, explode and can > > catch on fire if > > severely overcharged. I have seen it in person. I > > believe NiMH also > > heat up as they become overcharged, I have never > > pushed one past the > > 'full' mark before, do they have the same ftype of > > failure if severly > > overcharged? > > > > > > > > browse > > Subscriptions page, > > FAQ, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:57 PM PST US From: "DonVS" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: NiMH Batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DonVS" Nimh batteries have very low tolerence for vibration. I lost a couple of rc helicopters as a result. I went back to Nicad's and have had no problems. Just my 2 cents. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Mike Larkin Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: NiMH Batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Larkin" The only down side I can think of is you would have to integrate a charger system. Also NiMH tend to loose their charger over short periods of time (two weeks to a month). Mike Larkin -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pat Salvati Subject: AeroElectric-List: NiMH Batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Pat Salvati Is there any good reason, safety standpoint, that NiMH batteries should not be used in an aircraft. I have a dual alternator dual battery ship I'm building , NiMH battery packs come in some very attractive packaging versus 28v RG battery dimensions. The only one that I have come across is the one from B+C (7.5 AH or 11 AH) that would fit for me. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks, Pat -- -- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:49:19 PM PST US From: chad-c_sip@stanfordalumni.org Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charging the battery through the E-bus diode Z-USANET-MsgId: XID948JedwSy0043X36 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: chad-c_sip@stanfordalumni.org As I read the schematic you're correct. I suppose this situation could happen if you've really flattened your battery during a difficult start-up then didn't allow the alternator to recharge the battery very soon after (disengaged the alternator or master contactor). If you're really worried about that failure mode you can simply oversize your diode connecting the master to the endurance bus. A quick search of Allied Electronics lists power diodes capable of passing 20A for about $20 up to about $80 for 100A. Depending on how big your alternator is you could go with one of those (and a big heat sink mind you!). But if you're in a situation where your alternator is capable of producing enough current to fry your e-bus diode, why would you want to shut off the main bus contactor? I suppose if you had a battery failure AND a main bus contactor you could get into this situation - but now we're getting into the realm of really low odds I think. Chad Chad Sipperley Lancair IVP-turbine (under construction) Phoenix, AZ ------ Original Message ------ From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Charging the battery through the E-bus diode > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" > > Hi Bob, > > I'm wiring my plane pretty much according to Z-16, with some minor mods > since I'm using a coil and points based ignition system on my Corvair > engine and have implemented an Always-Hot bus. > > In studying the schematic and trying to list all possible failures and > their impact, I began wondering about battery failures. So I have some > questions. I think these would have to involve in-flight battery failures, > (let's say one dead cell), so they may be extremely rare, but I wonder still: > > 1. If you open the battery contactor and close the E-bus switch in flight, > and the battery needs a lot of charging, the alternator will attempt to do > so through the E-bus diode, which could presumably blow if the charge > current is high enough. Will it ever get that high? I've got a B&C heat > sink on mine. > > 2. I'm using a John Deere (PM) dynamo with a regulator whose supply pin is > connected to the main bus. The battery fails for some reason. I have a > big electrolytic cap on the output, so everything is fine and dandy, but > while trying to diagnose what exactly is happening, let's say I make the > mistake of pulling the dynamo breaker. I will not be able to reset the > breaker or do anything else to get the dynamo back online, because there is > no supply voltage to power the regulator. > > So maybe these are very rare, and could be easily overcome by simply using > two 17ah batteries instead of a single larger battery. Am I wasting my > time worrying about these? > > Thanks, > Dave Morris > www.DaveMorris.com/Dave/DFly.html > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:21 PM PST US From: Richard Riley Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cordless drill - anyone know amp hours? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Riley I'm thinking of using the batteries from a couple of 12 or 14 volt cordless drills for a non-aircraft application. I figure buy 2 from Harbor Freight ($10 of $15 each) cut one apart and save the handle, turn it upside down and attach it to the Infernal Device. I'd have 2 batteries and a charger, so I could swap them whenever needed. But experience shows I need about 2.5-3AH for the application. Anyone know if these battery packs come close to that? ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:29 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cordless drill - anyone know amp hours? From: "Tom Brusehaver" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom Brusehaver" I bought one of the HF 18V cordless drills. It seems they work, butare kinda wimpy (compared to the bosch/ craftsman type). I don't think their batteries are that good either. I've been replacing the 1200MAh nicads in the stock packs with after market 2000MAh Ni cads. Depending on your charger metal hydride, and lithium ion aren't directly replacable. They may also not be suitable. They use the sub-C batteries and getting the ones with tabs is the easiest way. It might work. On Mon, 30 May 2005 17:50:23 -0700, Richard Riley wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Riley > > > I'm thinking of using the batteries from a couple of 12 or 14 volt > cordless > drills for a non-aircraft application. I figure buy 2 from Harbor > Freight > ($10 of $15 each) cut one apart and save the handle, turn it upside down > and attach it to the Infernal Device. > > I'd have 2 batteries and a charger, so I could swap them whenever > needed. But experience shows I need about 2.5-3AH for the > application. Anyone know if these battery packs come close to that? > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:24 PM PST US From: "Jerry Isler" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV-List: Dynon D-10A Ticking --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Isler" I think I have figured out what is going on with my Dynon D-10A. It appears that if you have the keep alive circuit wired up to the Dynon and you let the main bus voltage drop to 10.5 volts or so due to not maintaining the proper charge on the main battery, the keep alive circuit cannot function properly due to the low voltage on it's input. At this low voltage it will start making an audible ticking noise as it tries to keep the internal battery charged. However it cannot properly charge the battery in this condition. The Dynon internal battery indicates slightly greater than 16 volts when charged and the charging circuit is normally operating at ~ 13 volts on it's input. Through some magic the Dynon internal charging circuit output has to be greater than 16 volts to keep the battery charged. Now that I have a full charge on the PC-680 everything is working fine. No more ticking. Be aware if you hear your Dynon ticking. Your ships bus voltage is probably low. Also the Dynon will not power up if it's voltage drops below some voltage threshold. I do not know this exact voltage. Jerry Isler RV-4 N455J Donalsonville, GA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Isler" Subject: RV-List: Dynon D-10A Ticking > So now for the real question. I have noticed lately that the Dyon D-10A > was making a ticking noise when everything on the plane was turned off. The > tick is about every second. I have the keep alive circuit wired up to an > always hot bus so that the internal battery in the Dynon will stay charged > up. I think the noise is from this circuit because I disconnected the > connector from the back of the Dynon and the noise stopped and resumed when > it was reconnected. Is this ticking noise normal? Could this be the cause of > my dead battery? Will a dead battery on the plane drain the internal battery > on the Dynon? Will a PC-680 go completely dead if you let the voltage get > down to about 10.5 volts (I have not charged the battery in a while)? ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:55 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contactor vs Power Relay --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:38 PM 5/30/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Sletten" > > >Bob and/or other expert, > >What's the difference between the Aeroelectric Connection recommended >battery contactor and a high-amperage automotive power relay such as >this: http://www.wiringproducts.com/?target=dept_96.html > >Scroll down a bit and you'll find a Bosch 75AMP power relay. This seem >ideal to use in lieu of the bulky contactor and all it's associated >diodes and such. What am I missing? I have no idea. Without specifics as to the ratings and termination techniques for these products, I cannot accurately assess their suitability as battery contactors. Do you have a specific part number from Bosch and/or can point me to a data sheet? Bob . . .