Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:51 AM - Re: Devil's advocate (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
2. 05:25 AM - Capacitance style fuel level sensor (marknlisa@hometel.com)
3. 05:46 AM - Re: Z-19 vs. Z-14 SpamAssassin (score=-2.56, required 4, AWL 0.04, BAYES_00 -2.60) (Vern W.)
4. 06:02 AM - Re: battery maintainer/load tester (Picture Links Fixed) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 06:10 AM - Re: Capacitance style fuel level sensor (Dave Morris \)
6. 06:21 AM - Re: Z-19 vs. Z-14 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 06:29 AM - Re: Capacitance style fuel level sensor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 06:41 AM - Z-13/Z-30/parallel batts (Was: Re: Z-19 vs. Z-14) (Paul Folbrecht)
9. 06:49 AM - Re: Intercom Wiring (rv-9a-online)
10. 06:51 AM - Re: battery maintainer/load tester (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 07:04 AM - Re: battery maintainer (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
12. 07:09 AM - Re: Z-19 vs. Z-14 (Paul Folbrecht)
13. 08:19 AM - Re: Devil's advocate (Dj Merrill)
14. 09:01 AM - Re: Z-19 vs. Z-14 (Vern W.)
15. 09:03 AM - Re: Z-19 vs. Z-14 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 09:09 AM - Re: Z-13/Z-30/parallel batts (Was: Re: Z-19 vs. Z-14) (Vern W.)
17. 09:37 AM - Re: Z-19 vs. Z-14 (Dj Merrill)
18. 09:37 AM - warm Alternator (Ron Russell Voyager Travel)
19. 10:00 AM - Moving Battery and howto (Werner Schneider)
20. 11:39 AM - Re: Aerosport Alternator and Overvoltage - Request ()
21. 12:22 PM - order? (Ronald J. Parigoris)
22. 12:25 PM - Re: Re: Aerosport Alternator and Overvoltage - Request (Chuck Jensen)
23. 03:23 PM - Re: warm Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
24. 03:45 PM - Re: Aerosport Alternator and Overvoltage (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
25. 03:48 PM - Re: Moving Battery and howto (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
26. 04:04 PM - Re: Moving Battery and howto (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
27. 04:06 PM - Re: battery maintainer More (Paul Wilson)
28. 04:37 PM - choosing which loads go on the Main Buss and E-Buss (Larry E. James)
29. 04:37 PM - Z-19 vs. Z-14 (Larry E. James)
30. 04:47 PM - Re: Capacitance style fuel level sensor (Eric M. Jones)
31. 05:06 PM - Re: Moving Battery and howto (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
32. 05:16 PM - Re: Aerosport Alternator and Overvoltage (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
33. 05:42 PM - Re: Re: Capacitance style fuel level sensor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
34. 05:45 PM - Re: Z-19 vs. Z-14 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
35. 05:51 PM - Battery Testing (DonVS)
36. 06:34 PM - Re: Re: Capacitance style fuel level sensor (Charlie Kuss)
37. 07:11 PM - Re: Intercom Wiring (Guy Buchanan)
38. 08:21 PM - Re: Re: Capacitance style fuel level sensor (Richard E. Tasker)
39. 10:26 PM - Re: Moving Battery and howto (Werner Schneider)
40. 10:50 PM - Re: Intercom Wiring (rv-9a-online)
41. 10:54 PM - Thermocouples in an ultralight - theory help, please? (Richard Riley)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Devil's advocate |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
Dan,
I have all electric in my 6A, dual LSE EI.
In 1350 hours in the past 2.5 years, I have logged 57hours of actual
instrument. Probably 10 of that was actual flights in IMC to keep
current.
I have one bat, one alt.
About a year ago I had a failure In IMC of the alt. over Alabama enroute
from Atlanta to NM with my 12 year old daughter with me.
I flew a 1/2hr to a nice airport and landed ILS in minimums. Weather was
total dog !!@#!. I was pretty busy getting vectors and maneuvering with
ATC to the approach. One miss and hit the second.
It was the 3rd elcheapo 30A alt I cooked. Bearings went out. I was able
to replace on the field with a Autozone replacement, under lifetime
warrantee, and press on. I finally replaced with a very reliable 60A
Suzuki model that has lasted 500hours w/o a hicuup.
In my al electric Super 8, I have the same design, just more gismos. I
like the gismos cause they are fun to play with and give me enough
information to really enjoy my long flights which as you know I do a lot
of. I don't feel safer necessisarily with all that stuff, but I sure do
enjoy what they give me in terms of data. Very powerful stuff. GRT, BMA,
MX20 are a pretty cool combination.
I have one bat, one alt, in the S8 too. I may end up putting in a second
bat in strictly for ballast:) 2 batteries gives me absolutely no
additional comfort and neither does the second alt.. If I had a second
alt., and one failed, I figure I would probably land and fix it rather
than keep flying cross country anyways.
Best
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan
Checkoway
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Devil's advocate
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway"
<dan@rvproject.com>
Wow, not too many replies to this thread! Either people aren't flying
IFR,
or they just don't want to admit how little IFR they really do fly
despite
their fancy electrical systems.
Given all the RV builders I know who have or are installing backup
alternators and all sorts of fancy whizbang electronic toys, I doubt any
of
them will actually ever make use of it! It's interesting, at least to
me.
I see a LOT of money being spent on toys for peace of mind, and then the
pilot never flies in the clouds, or even at night!
It's so easy for us to get caught up in much more complex installations
than
are actually required. Just because it's "affordable" doesn't mean you
should use it!
Bob's recent replies on the "Z-19 vs. Z-14" thread have validated my
thoughts (thanks, Bob). Keep it simple. Z-11, while simple,
lightweight,
and inexpensive, is more than sufficient 99.999% of the time for 99.999%
of
us pilots...even the ones flying IFR.
Keep the stress off the battery terminals, keep a healthy battery, and
proceed as usual... Enjoy looking at what's *outside* the plane, and
put
the $$$ into gas for your travels. Probably not a popular sentiment
among
all these electrophiles, but oh well.
do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Devil's advocate
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway"
<dan@rvproject.com>
>
> Homebuilt fliers out there who are instrument rated and keep current
and
> really do fly IFR in your plane...here is a poll of sorts:
>
> - What % of your flying is IFR?
> - What % of your flying is in solid IMC without a VFR "out"?
>
> I consider myself more active than the average private pilot who flies
for
> fun. In the past 12 months, I flew 405 hours, 13.5 of which were
actual
> instrument...3% of my flying. Approximately 3 of those hours were in
solid
> IMC with no VFR "out." That's less than 1% of my flying. Zero hours
IFR
at
> night in the past year.
>
> Has anybody out there ever actually used a standby alternator in IMC?
>
> How about in VMC...has anybody had a primary alternator fail, and then
flew
> multiple legs home (more than just a local hop, i.e. a real cross
country
> trip) using the standby alternator?
>
> Just curious.
>
> do not archive
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Capacitance style fuel level sensor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: marknlisa@hometel.com
Gang,
I'm forwarding this message recently posted on the Lancair Mailing List.
Please respond directly to him as well as this list (he isn't a subscriber
although I've encouraged him).
>>SNIP
FROM:
jeffreyb.peterson@gmail.com
I extended the wing tanks on my 360 and took the opportunity to
install a homebuilt capacitacne level sensor. I did this because the
commercial sensors are expensive, too short and difficult to tread into
the extended region of the tank. Mine is simple, just a length of 1/4 inch
tubing with holes every six inches, and a wire thin teflon insulated wire
suspeneded near the center. It has 133 pF capacitance empty and about
twice that full.
Now I need to build a circuit to read the capacitance and pass along the
correct signal to some filght instrument computer. I have been told
that these computer systems take a TTL square wave at about 3000 Hz, with
a frequency carrying the level info, and that the computer gets
programmed during setup with the empty and full levels. so, the precise
frequency for empty or full is not critical. I breadboarded up a TLC555
circuit today and it seemed stable.
I have not chosen the computer. Mabye it will be EDM 900...or a
Chelton screen...or whatever seems nice when I get around to the avionics.
I hope the group can help by answering a few questions:
-I am correct that these systems use a 3000 Hz TTL square wave?
-Is there a published (or defacto) standard?
-Can I buy the circuit I need?
I would consider paying a few hundred, but considering that I have spent
JUST $1.49 at radio shack so far, $1000 seems rather steep.
Thanks.
--
Jeff Peterson
>>SNIP
Thanks for looking this over guys/gals.
Mark & Lisa Sletten
Legacy FG N828LM
http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Z-19 vs. Z-14 SpamAssassin (score=-2.56, |
required 4, AWL 0.04, BAYES_00 -2.60)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vern W." <vernw@ev1.net>
My preference is for the Z-13 architecture, but I'm pretty sure it was
Bob N. himself who stated that the SD-8 MUST have a battery to excite it. It
will not power up by itself.
So what I have sort of settled on is the Z-13 plus the Z-30 additional
battery (very small, say 4 amp) which does three things: It gives the SD-8
something to lean on to get it started if need be, the small additional
battery can be use to keep (full voltage) power on my Lightspeed ignition
when starting, and if both the main alternator and the primary battery go
offline, the 4 amp battery with the SD-8 is plenty to keep all the important
systems (and then some) up and running as long as needed.
My big "problem" with just one battery is not the RG battery's
dependability in general, but the (very?) possible occurance of a broken
terminal. I know that's a "full bucket" as Bob says, but a broken battery
terminal definitely qualifies as a "single point of failure" which we are
all using as our baseline in electrical design.
I've seen some posters go a bit further and worry about scenarios of
multiple failures, but the probabability of any more than one critical
failure in a single flight is in the nth degree of possibility. If I lose my
main battery, my main alternator goes over voltage, the SD-8 won't start, I
start to smell smoke, and my one mag on the other side fails, and all this
happens exactly while I'm flying on top a mountain range, then I'm simply
going to assume that I have gotten a personal invitation from God to meet
Him face to face which will allow me to enjoy the ride down :-)
In the end, I'd be just as confident to fly with the Z-19 design as much
as the Z-13 + Z-30 design. While Z-19 is cheaper, it's a lot more weight
that I won't need in my RV7-A.
I'm not totally decided yet being that I won't have to start installing
a chosen system until later this Fall, but Z-13 + Z30 looks good to me. Now
if Bob would only add the Z-30 extra battery to the Z-13/SD-8 drawing and
show it as one sheet...
This is a great discussion, so let's not be afraid to keep it going. I'm
betting there's lot's of people wondering the same things.
Vern
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Folbrecht" <paulfolbrecht@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 vs. Z-14 SpamAssassin (score=-2.56,
required 4, AWL 0.04, BAYES_00 -2.60)
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht
<paulfolbrecht@yahoo.com>
>
> Now I am confused b/c in searching the archive doing my research I came
across
> a thread that specifically stated that the SD-8 MUST in fact have a batt
online
> to get excited. If what you say is true I would also consider a 2nd batt
> totally unnecessary.
>
> > Another good thread. I went through a similar thought
> > process a few weeks ago with Bob and one defining moment for
> > me was in talking with Bill at B&C: when he said that the
> > SD-8 would work without the battery. That means to me that
> > if both the primary alt and only batt fail; I still have
> > 8amps of power. Then, 1-1/2 lbs for the SD-8 vs. 12 lbs for
> > the extra batt made my mind up to go with the single batt /
> > dual alt configuration. Of course this is only my reasoning
> > ..... still sound ???
> > --
> > Larry E. James
> > Bellevue, WA Harmon Rocket
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | RE: battery maintainer/load tester (Picture Links Fixed) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:24 PM 6/7/2005 -0500, you wrote:
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: battery maintainer/load tester
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
> >Concerning battery maintainers. Just got a sales paper from Harbor
> >Freight, and they have one on sale for $5. The illustration showed a
> >wall wart, followed by a black box (I'm assuming the regulator), then
> >out to a couple of aligator clips.
>
> I'll see if I can get one of these too and check it out.
My local store was sold out of the $low$ maintainers. I did
pick up a load tester:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=91129
See photos:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/HF91129_0.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/HF91129_1.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/HF91129_2.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/HF91129_3.jpg
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/HF91129_4.jpg
This little beastie is surprisingly useful. It has
an audible 15 second timer to help you conduct a
cranking test. The voltmeter does remote sense from
the battery test clips for accurate readings at
high current. The voltmeter is also quite accurate.
I conducted a 500A test first crack out of the box
and got a lot of stinky smoke (new carbon pile
parts). Subsequent tests were less distasteful.
You DO want to let it cool between high current
tests. My $high$ tester has a built in fan, it
wouldn't be hard to add one to this guy but I suspect
most folks won't need it.
The only down side was when I reassembled it, the
1.5MM machine screws threaded into too-thin sheet
metal stripped out when the little battery powered
screwdriver I was using bottomed out the screws . . .
If that's the ONLY thing I can find to carp about,
then this device is a steal at $60. Between this
load tester and the CBA-II cap checker at:
http://westmountainradio.com/CBA_ham.htm
. . .you can have all the equipment you need to keep very
close tabs on not just the battery in your airplane
but all the batteries in your life.
Bob . . .
--
-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Bob . . .
--------------------------------------------------------
< Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition >
< of man. Advances which permit this norm to be >
< exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the >
< work of an extremely small minority, frequently >
< despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed >
< by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny >
< minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes >
< happens) is driven out of a society, the people >
< then slip back into abject poverty. >
< >
< This is known as "bad luck". >
< -Lazarus Long- >
<------------------------------------------------------>
http://www.aeroelectric.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Capacitance style fuel level sensor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
Why didn't you just use one of the existing $87 sensors that already does
all that stuff for you from Westach (go to the Wicks site and put in
"westach fuel" in the search box) and outputs a 0-5V signal giving the tank
level. Then you can read it on a 0-5V voltmeter installed in the panel.
Dave Morris
At 07:25 AM 6/8/2005, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: marknlisa@hometel.com
>
>Gang,
>
>I'm forwarding this message recently posted on the Lancair Mailing List.
>Please respond directly to him as well as this list (he isn't a subscriber
>although I've encouraged him).
>
> >>SNIP
>
>FROM:
>jeffreyb.peterson@gmail.com
>
>I extended the wing tanks on my 360 and took the opportunity to
>install a homebuilt capacitacne level sensor. I did this because the
>commercial sensors are expensive, too short and difficult to tread into
>the extended region of the tank. Mine is simple, just a length of 1/4 inch
>tubing with holes every six inches, and a wire thin teflon insulated wire
>suspeneded near the center. It has 133 pF capacitance empty and about
>twice that full.
>
>Now I need to build a circuit to read the capacitance and pass along the
>correct signal to some filght instrument computer. I have been told
>that these computer systems take a TTL square wave at about 3000 Hz, with
>a frequency carrying the level info, and that the computer gets
>programmed during setup with the empty and full levels. so, the precise
>frequency for empty or full is not critical. I breadboarded up a TLC555
>circuit today and it seemed stable.
>
>I have not chosen the computer. Mabye it will be EDM 900...or a
>Chelton screen...or whatever seems nice when I get around to the avionics.
>
>I hope the group can help by answering a few questions:
>
>-I am correct that these systems use a 3000 Hz TTL square wave?
>-Is there a published (or defacto) standard?
>-Can I buy the circuit I need?
>
>I would consider paying a few hundred, but considering that I have spent
>JUST $1.49 at radio shack so far, $1000 seems rather steep.
>
>Thanks.
>
>--
>Jeff Peterson
>
> >>SNIP
>
>Thanks for looking this over guys/gals.
>
>Mark & Lisa Sletten
>Legacy FG N828LM
>http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Z-19 vs. Z-14 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:49 AM 6/8/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vern W." <vernw@ev1.net>
>
> My preference is for the Z-13 architecture, but I'm pretty sure it was
>Bob N. himself who stated that the SD-8 MUST have a battery to excite it. It
>will not power up by itself.
Based on the regulator in service at the time. B&C may have
a new regulator that will take advantage of a PM alternator's
ability to come on line sans battery. I'll check with them . . .
> So what I have sort of settled on is the Z-13 plus the Z-30 additional
>battery (very small, say 4 amp) which does three things: It gives the SD-8
>something to lean on to get it started if need be, the small additional
>battery can be use to keep (full voltage) power on my Lightspeed ignition
>when starting, and if both the main alternator and the primary battery go
>offline, the 4 amp battery with the SD-8 is plenty to keep all the important
>systems (and then some) up and running as long as needed.
A logically considered game plan.
> My big "problem" with just one battery is not the RG battery's
>dependability in general, but the (very?) possible occurance of a broken
>terminal. I know that's a "full bucket" as Bob says, but a broken battery
>terminal definitely qualifies as a "single point of failure" which we are
>all using as our baseline in electrical design.
Sure . . . now, when doing the FMEA (failure modes effects analysis)
how do you construct your checklist and/or monitoring capabilities
to mitigate the failure? Let's review:
1. How many ways can a part fail?
2. How will each failure affect system operation?
3. How will I know it failed in flight?
4. Is the failure preflight detectable?
5. Is failure of this part, in any failure mode, likely to create
a hazard to flight?
6. Will failure of this part be likely to overtax my piloting
skills for comfortably terminating the flight?
> I've seen some posters go a bit further and worry about scenarios of
>multiple failures, but the probabability of any more than one critical
>failure in a single flight is in the nth degree of possibility.
Correct.
> If I lose my
>main battery, my main alternator goes over voltage, the SD-8 won't start, I
>start to smell smoke, and my one mag on the other side fails, and all this
>happens exactly while I'm flying on top a mountain range, then I'm simply
>going to assume that I have gotten a personal invitation from God to meet
>Him face to face which will allow me to enjoy the ride down :-)
This only happens in the movies with John Wayne at the controls
and he sits at the right hand of . . . oh well.
> In the end, I'd be just as confident to fly with the Z-19 design as much
>as the Z-13 + Z-30 design. While Z-19 is cheaper, it's a lot more weight
>that I won't need in my RV7-A.
> I'm not totally decided yet being that I won't have to start installing
>a chosen system until later this Fall, but Z-13 + Z30 looks good to me. Now
>if Bob would only add the Z-30 extra battery to the Z-13/SD-8 drawing and
>show it as one sheet...
I'll leave this up to you. The more I specialize the base drawings,
the more it begins to look like I am recommending this architecture
as "THE way to go" . . .
I'd much rather have you spill all the Tinker-Toys out on the
carpet, ponder each as to its utility (and liability) and assemble
them together in satisfaction of your FMEA. I had a gentleman at
the last seminar write to express his dis-satisfaction with the
program . . . too many "side trips" and not enough attention to
telling him how to put his airplane together. He was not charged
for the tuition. My mission is to illuminate and explain the Tinker-Toys
and offer examples of how they're used and then assist in crafting
a system based on your understanding, not my recommendations.
What goes on here on the List is NOT for the average OBAM aircraft
builder. I'd like to believe all of you will get many hours of
enjoyment from your finished project with the electrical system
being at the very bottom of the worry bucket. The majority of
builders will be better served by duplicating the work in an
issue of Firewall Forward or buying Van's kit for installation
as-supplied.
> This is a great discussion, so let's not be afraid to keep it going. I'm
>betting there's lot's of people wondering the same things.
Vern, your post illustrates most adequately the level of
understanding you've achieved and bodes well for what you'll
accomplish by the time your project is done. This is
an evolutionary process that often begins with wild swings
in concepts but as understanding is gained, the swings dampen
out and you begin to focus on what's really needed to satisfy
your design goals.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Capacitance style fuel level sensor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:25 AM 6/8/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: marknlisa@hometel.com
>
>Gang,
>
>I'm forwarding this message recently posted on the Lancair Mailing List.
>Please respond directly to him as well as this list (he isn't a subscriber
>although I've encouraged him).
>
> >>SNIP
>
>FROM:
>jeffreyb.peterson@gmail.com
>
>I extended the wing tanks on my 360 and took the opportunity to
>install a homebuilt capacitacne level sensor. I did this because the
>commercial sensors are expensive, too short and difficult to tread into
>the extended region of the tank. Mine is simple, just a length of 1/4 inch
>tubing with holes every six inches, and a wire thin teflon insulated wire
>suspeneded near the center. It has 133 pF capacitance empty and about
>twice that full.
>
>Now I need to build a circuit to read the capacitance and pass along the
>correct signal to some filght instrument computer. I have been told
>that these computer systems take a TTL square wave at about 3000 Hz, with
>a frequency carrying the level info, and that the computer gets
>programmed during setup with the empty and full levels. so, the precise
>frequency for empty or full is not critical. I breadboarded up a TLC555
>circuit today and it seemed stable.
>
>I have not chosen the computer. Mabye it will be EDM 900...or a
>Chelton screen...or whatever seems nice when I get around to the avionics.
>
>I hope the group can help by answering a few questions:
>
>-I am correct that these systems use a 3000 Hz TTL square wave?
No. you can use any freqency you like
>-Is there a published (or defacto) standard?
No.
>-Can I buy the circuit I need?
Probably not but you can build it. See;
http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/KP0006/KP0006.htm
http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/KP0007/KP0007.htm
http://www.rst-engr.com/kitplanes/KP0008/KP0008.htm
I don't know that Jim's design is the elegant solution
but it's a solid discussion on the fundamentals.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Z-19 vs. Z-14) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht <paulfolbrecht@yahoo.com>
Vern W. wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vern W." <vernw@ev1.net>
>
> My preference is for the Z-13 architecture, but I'm pretty sure it was
>Bob N. himself who stated that the SD-8 MUST have a battery to excite it. It
>will not power up by itself.
> So what I have sort of settled on is the Z-13 plus the Z-30 additional
>battery (very small, say 4 amp) which does three things: It gives the SD-8
>something to lean on to get it started if need be, the small additional
>battery can be use to keep (full voltage) power on my Lightspeed ignition
>when starting, and if both the main alternator and the primary battery go
>offline, the 4 amp battery with the SD-8 is plenty to keep all the important
>systems (and then some) up and running as long as needed.
> My big "problem" with just one battery is not the RG battery's
>dependability in general, but the (very?) possible occurance of a broken
>terminal. I know that's a "full bucket" as Bob says, but a broken battery
>terminal definitely qualifies as a "single point of failure" which we are
>all using as our baseline in electrical design.
>
>
How about two batts *in parallel*? That is, straight Z-13 with no Z-30
circuit but with two identical batts wired parallel. Eliminates the
terminal concern and an open cell as well. But this doesn't seem to be
a popular configuration. At least not from a search of the archives.
What am I missing? A shorted cell would still be disastrous but that is
far less likely and could be gotten around too. If I'm missing nothing
with this idea, than Z-13 with the SD-8 is what I'll do.
> I've seen some posters go a bit further and worry about scenarios of
>multiple failures, but the probabability of any more than one critical
>failure in a single flight is in the nth degree of possibility. If I lose my
>main battery, my main alternator goes over voltage, the SD-8 won't start, I
>start to smell smoke, and my one mag on the other side fails, and all this
>happens exactly while I'm flying on top a mountain range, then I'm simply
>going to assume that I have gotten a personal invitation from God to meet
>Him face to face which will allow me to enjoy the ride down :-)
>
>
I made a similar comment in response to Bob earlier in this thread. :->
Can't fight the big guy if he's got your number!
> In the end, I'd be just as confident to fly with the Z-19 design as much
>as the Z-13 + Z-30 design. While Z-19 is cheaper, it's a lot more weight
>that I won't need in my RV7-A.
> I'm not totally decided yet being that I won't have to start installing
>a chosen system until later this Fall, but Z-13 + Z30 looks good to me. Now
>if Bob would only add the Z-30 extra battery to the Z-13/SD-8 drawing and
>show it as one sheet...
>
> This is a great discussion, so let's not be afraid to keep it going. I'm
>betting there's lot's of people wondering the same things.
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Intercom Wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rv-9a-online <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
Guy, the Sigtronics instructions are not particularly clear.
Using two-wire shielded cable, with the shields grounded to a single
point ('A') at the intercom end, wire in these three signals. In each
cable, use one wire for signal (both ends), one wire for signal ground
(both ends) and the shield (intercom end only). You could get away with
not shielding the RADIO MIC KEY signal if it's short, or using 3-wire
cable and running it with the MIC cable. You may also need a series
resistor in the HEADPHONE AUDIO line (510 ohms or so), depending on the
radio characteristics (obscure Sigtronics app note).
Have a look at the Vx Aviation website http://www3.telus.net/aviation/vx
. At the top is the AMX-1A Sigtronics Audio Bus wiring device. If you
open the .pdf datasheet for this, there are schematics in the back of
the document that is pretty descriptive on how to wire everything up,
even if you don't use the AMX-1A
The AMX-1A will also solve the 'forest of tabs' problems on the panel,
plus provides four of the ten channels with series resistors, and one
channel with a volume control (to support future Dynon audio warnings).
Vern Little
RV-9A
Guy Buchanan wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>
>All,
> I'm attaching an Icom A200 VHF to a Sigtronics ST-400 intercom.
>The Sigtronics instructions say to connect three wires to the "MIC AUDIO",
>"RADIO MIC KEY", and "HEADPHONE AUDIO" pins of the "Aircraft Radio".
>Another set of Sigtronics installation instructions, for the SPA-400,
>specifically denotes the H, J, and 9 pins, respectively, of the A200 for
>these three functions. Does this mean I don't connect anything to the
>corresponding aircraft radio ground pins for these functions? Is the
>Sigtronics using the power ground as a return? Will this set up a ground loop?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>
>Guy Buchanan
>K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: battery maintainer/load tester |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 11:08 PM 6/7/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker"
><retasker@optonline.net>
>
>oops... Should be:
>
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/HF91129_2.jpg
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/HF91129_3.jpg
>http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/HF91129_4.jpg
>
>Dick Tasker
Hmmm . . . really hosed that one, didn't I? I've fixed
the links and reposted the note. Thanks Dick.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | battery maintainer |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Never did actually put a volmeter across it...I guess my batteries were
always pretty much charged...I.e got out the plane hooked up the
chargers and left.
Interesting the comment about reverting down to 13+ volts...I mean in
the car/plane the thing will run at 14.5V all the time...why the need
for the lower maintenance voltage?
I have one at home on a SLA I'll see what its doing.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: battery maintainer
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
--> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:20 AM 6/7/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George
(Corvallis)"
><frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
>Funny you should ask this because I did a similar experiment with a HF
>charger a few years ago.
>
>Firstly let me say the plug in charger works great, plug 'em in walk
>away.
Do you have data on how this charger performs? For a "maintainer"
we need a charge cycle that terminates somewhere above 14 - 14.5
volts that reverts to a maintenance level around 13 - 13.5 volts.
See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/schumacher_2.jpg
Do you know if the device you tested does this? I had to
discount one HF "maintainer" because it wouldn't go to
the charge mode unless the battery to be charged was
severely discharged.
Snip . . .
>Concerning battery maintainers. Just got a sales paper from Harbor
>Freight, and they have one on sale for $5. The illustration showed a
>wall wart, followed by a black box (I'm assuming the regulator), then
>out to a couple of aligator clips.
I'll see if I can get one of these too and check it out.
> They also have the solar battery
>charger for $12. Since the solar charger is unregulated, I'm wondering
>about the feasibility of combining the two. Cut the walwart off the
>regulator and the end off the solar panels output lead. Connect the
>solar panel to the regulator. Remove the panel's housing and build it
>into a custom battery cover and mount the regulator's black box with a
>couple of ties to a longeron close to the battery. Cut the aligator
>clips, and solder on a couple of ring terminals. Now the system can be
>added inline with the battery contactor leads, and all but forgotten.
>
>Is it feasible? What sort of gotchas would I have to test for beyond
>insuring that it has enough capacity to maintain the battery in
>moderate lighting?
Don't know. Let's find out. On the way home from Apex, I
crafted a DIY maintainer controller. I'll add the drawing
to the battery maintenance article as soon as I can get
around to it. I don't recommend that anyone build such a
device when they're dirt cheap to buy already working. I
think our best effort would research which products do
it right.
Thanks for your feedback.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Z-19 vs. Z-14 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht <paulfolbrecht@yahoo.com>
Hey! I resemble that comment! :->
do not archive
> Vern, your post illustrates most adequately the level of
> understanding you've achieved and bodes well for what you'll
> accomplish by the time your project is done. This is
> an evolutionary process that often begins with wild swings
> in concepts but as understanding is gained, the swings dampen
> out and you begin to focus on what's really needed to satisfy
> your design goals.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Devil's advocate |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu>
Dan Checkoway wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> It's so easy for us to get caught up in much more complex installations than
> are actually required. Just because it's "affordable" doesn't mean you
> should use it!
Well, maybe... ;-) I will have an electrically dependant
engine (Subaru), so regardless of IFR or VFR I want the prop to
stay spinning. That implies at least some basic redundancy in the
electrical system, to me at least. I also want traffic, weather,
and graphical TFRs in the panel, even for VFR. I consider those
important to me.
Considering the above, it is very little additional
expense to make the plane IFR. In fact, I think it makes sense
to go with a glass panel approach in my case since what I want is
generally already a part of the various EFIS system(s), and this adds
very little complexity to my overall installation. Indeed, I
think the overall system would be MORE complex with standard
round gauges rather than the glass system (many more separate
parts, and additional connections of various types to all of
those gauges).
However, I'll concede that the air conditioning
system I am thinking of may be a little more complicated
than what is required... *wink*
-Dj
do not archive
--
Dj Merrill
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118
"TSA: Totally Screwing Aviation"
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Z-19 vs. Z-14 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vern W." <vernw@ev1.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 vs. Z-14
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 07:49 AM 6/8/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vern W." <vernw@ev1.net>
> >
> > My preference is for the Z-13 architecture, but I'm pretty sure it
was
> >Bob N. himself who stated that the SD-8 MUST have a battery to excite it.
It
> >will not power up by itself.
>
> Based on the regulator in service at the time. B&C may have
> a new regulator that will take advantage of a PM alternator's
> ability to come on line sans battery. I'll check with them . . .
>
Now THAT would be the answer I'm looking for, Bob, and if that's what
they've come up with, there is no question that the Z-13 "as is" would be
more than I need to feel good about flying over the Rocky's at night :-)
Please let us know when you find something out.
Thanks,
Vern
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Z-19 vs. Z-14 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:07 AM 6/8/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht
><paulfolbrecht@yahoo.com>
>
>Hey! I resemble that comment! :->
You too Paul and (I hope) hundreds of others out of
over 1300 builders who monitor this list.
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Z-19 vs. Z-14) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vern W." <vernw@ev1.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Folbrecht" <paulfolbrecht@yahoo.com>
Subject: Z-13/Z-30/parallel batts (Was: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 vs.
Z-14)
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht
<paulfolbrecht@yahoo.com>
>
> Vern W. wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vern W." <vernw@ev1.net>
> >
> > My preference is for the Z-13 architecture, but I'm pretty sure it
was
> >Bob N. himself who stated that the SD-8 MUST have a battery to excite it.
It
> >will not power up by itself.
> > So what I have sort of settled on is the Z-13 plus the Z-30
additional
> >battery (very small, say 4 amp) which does three things: It gives the
SD-8
> >something to lean on to get it started if need be, the small additional
> >battery can be use to keep (full voltage) power on my Lightspeed ignition
> >when starting, and if both the main alternator and the primary battery go
> >offline, the 4 amp battery with the SD-8 is plenty to keep all the
important
> >systems (and then some) up and running as long as needed.
> > My big "problem" with just one battery is not the RG battery's
> >dependability in general, but the (very?) possible occurance of a broken
> >terminal. I know that's a "full bucket" as Bob says, but a broken battery
> >terminal definitely qualifies as a "single point of failure" which we are
> >all using as our baseline in electrical design.
> >
> >
>
> How about two batts *in parallel*? That is, straight Z-13 with no Z-30
> circuit but with two identical batts wired parallel. Eliminates the
> terminal concern and an open cell as well. But this doesn't seem to be
> a popular configuration. At least not from a search of the archives.
> What am I missing? A shorted cell would still be disastrous but that is
> far less likely and could be gotten around too. If I'm missing nothing
> with this idea, than Z-13 with the SD-8 is what I'll do.
>
Two parallel batteries with two alternators ala Z-13 suggests to me that you
want to run all your systems off the one "set" of batteries unless I'm
misunderstanding something about running parallel batteries.
An isolated battery allows you more options for an essential bus to be
configured off of it, so if you truly must have two full size batteries plus
two alternators, then Z-14 is your answer.
My only reason for the second battery scenario (Z-13 + Z-30 "teeny" battery)
is not so much that I want a second battery per se, but that I want to be
able to get the SD-8 online which, at this point and until Bob finds out
different, would NEED that extra teeny battery to do that.
You probably have already seen Bob's response that he's checking to see if
B&C has managed to allow the SD-8 to come online with a particular type of
regulator and NOT need a battery to do so. If that is actually possible,
then my decision would be definitely made to go with the Z-13 architecture
as it is other than small decisions based on my particular panel
arrangement.
Vern
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Z-19 vs. Z-14 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu>
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 09:07 AM 6/8/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht
>><paulfolbrecht@yahoo.com>
>>
>>Hey! I resemble that comment! :->
>
>
> You too Paul and (I hope) hundreds of others out of
> over 1300 builders who monitor this list.
>
> Bob . . .
Yeah, the "wild swings" comment included
me in that group... *grin*
do not archive
-Dj
--
Dj Merrill
Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118
"TSA: Totally Screwing Aviation"
Message 18
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ron Russell Voyager Travel <ron@voyagertravel.com>
I have a Vans 60A alternator with an internal regulator. Engine has not run
yet.
Last night I had the master switch on for a few hours while testing the
wiring and I notices the front of the alternator was warm. Not hot but
warmer than room temp. Is this normal?
Ron Russell
RV6 close to flying
Message 19
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| Subject: | Moving Battery and howto |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" <glastar@gmx.net>
Dear all,
I woudl like to ask for your advice, my plane (a Glastar) is quite nose
heavy with the current setup the Battery is directly behind the copilot
seat. Now I would like to move it another 8-10 ft to get a better setup, the
question is, can I just get some additional cable and some kind of butt
splices to extend it further after? If yes, where can I get such splices for
AWG 2 cables?
Many thanks for your advice
Werner
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Aerosport Alternator and Overvoltage - Request |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
Re: Aerosport Alternator and Overvoltage - Request
>Aha! They're doing b-lead disconnect protection on internally
>regulated alternators . . . Wonder if they've tested their
>recommended disconnect relay in the output of a runaway
>alternator running at over 10,000 rpm?
Bob:
No, niagaraairparts.com does not do anything regarding an OV b-lead disconnect,
they only offer the OV module from Zeftronics as an option for those who want
it but don't recommend it.
I have talked to Niagara Airparts and they don't recommend it. The owner of the
company has had his Denso on his experimental aircraft for almost 10 years, with
no external protection or problems.
Cheers George
---------------------------------
Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out!
Message 21
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ronald J. Parigoris" <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hey Mr. Wayne
Is your printer in here and ordered?
later
8
"Eric M. Jones" wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
>
> Here is an approach to labeling panels in the airplane:
>
> Inkjet and LaserJet decals.
>
> http://www.decal-paper.com/index.html
>
> Throw a cartridge of fluorescent ink into your inkjet---
>
> http://www.ink4art.com/
>
> Add a UV led into your brow lighting and watch these babies glow.
>
> Regards,
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge MA 01550-2705
> Phone (508) 764-2072
> Email: emjones@charter.net
>
> "Nothing is too wonderful to be true."
> James Clerk Maxwell, discoverer of electromagnetism
> "Too much of a good thing can be wonderful."
> Mae West, discoverer of personal magnetism
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Aerosport Alternator and Overvoltage - Request |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
One hopes Niagara Airparts based their recommendation on something more than 10
years of flying in his experimental, during which he had 'no problem.' Some
technical basis per chance?
Chuck
Do Not Archive
Bob:
No, niagaraairparts.com does not do anything regarding an OV b-lead disconnect,
they only offer the OV module from Zeftronics as an option for those who want
it but don't recommend it.
I have talked to Niagara Airparts and they don't recommend it. The owner of the
company has had his Denso on his experimental aircraft for almost 10 years, with
no external protection or problems.
Cheers George
---------------------------------
Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out!
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: warm Alternator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:36 AM 6/8/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ron Russell Voyager Travel
><ron@voyagertravel.com>
>
>I have a Vans 60A alternator with an internal regulator. Engine has not run
>yet.
>Last night I had the master switch on for a few hours while testing the
>wiring and I notices the front of the alternator was warm. Not hot but
>warmer than room temp. Is this normal?
sounds like you had the alternator ON or otherwise energized
without spinning it to produce power. During this time it will
draw something on the order of 2 to 3 amps (24 to 42 watts)
in the field circuit that produces no benefit and consumes
power thus producing the warming you've noted.
This is the reason for progressive transfer switches in the
Z-figures that allow battery-only operations without energizing
the alternator field. This is easily orchestrated with
externally regulated alternators but problematic with internal
machines where field control is a function of its design and
may or may not be externally controllable.
Bob . . .
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Aerosport Alternator and Overvoltage |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 11:38 AM 6/8/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
>
>
>Re: Aerosport Alternator and Overvoltage - Request
>
>
> >Aha! They're doing b-lead disconnect protection on internally
>
> >regulated alternators . . . Wonder if they've tested their
>
> >recommended disconnect relay in the output of a runaway
>
> >alternator running at over 10,000 rpm?
>
>
>Bob:
>
>
>No, niagaraairparts.com does not do anything regarding an OV b-lead
>disconnect, they only offer the OV module from Zeftronics as an option for
>those who want it but don't recommend it.
Understand . . . I was referring to Zeftronics' offering
of OV protection for internally regulated alternators.
>I have talked to Niagara Airparts and they don't recommend it. The owner
>of the company has had his Denso on his experimental aircraft for almost
>10 years, with no external protection or problems.
Yup, millions of cars go to the junk yards every year
with hundreds of thousands of miles on them never having
suffered an alternator failure. They are extremely
reliable and if that's good enough for anyone, by all means.
Van says the same thing and apparently that's good enough
for him to recommend whatever products he supplies to
his customers. But that's his business model.
My inquiry concerning the architecture will be directed
to Zeftronics, not Niagara Air Parts.
From an aircraft system designer's perspective, I have
no means at hand to CONTROL brand, model and field
modifications that apply to just any automotive alternator
one might select to install on their OBAM aircraft. Therefore,
I can offer no learned opinion as to suitability of any
specific part. Designs I offer include a hedge against
over voltage runaway. If I were offering an internally
regulated design to a certified ship, I'd have to either
(1) supply ov protection or (2) demonstrate and CONFIGURATION
MANAGE use of an alternator known to offer 10-to-the-minus-6th
failure rates (1 per million flight hours).
I note that Niagara Air Parts offers this alternator only
to the OBAM aircraft community and they DO offer the
OV protection kit from Zeftronics.
Bob . . .
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Moving Battery and howto |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 06:59 PM 6/8/2005 +0200, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" <glastar@gmx.net>
>
>Dear all,
>
>I woudl like to ask for your advice, my plane (a Glastar) is quite nose
>heavy with the current setup the Battery is directly behind the copilot
>seat. Now I would like to move it another 8-10 ft to get a better setup, the
>question is, can I just get some additional cable and some kind of butt
>splices to extend it further after? If yes, where can I get such splices for
>AWG 2 cables?
You betcha . . . but they are bound to be crimp type
splices and will need the proper tool for installation.
You already have ring terminals crimped or soldered to
the battery end of the cables . . . crimp or solder terminals
to your extension cables and BOLT them together as a splice.
If you can find some double-walled, super-heat shrink to
encapsulate the joints, fine. Otherwise, two or three layers
of plain-vanilla heat shrink will do.
Bob . . .
Message 26
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| Subject: | Moving Battery and howto |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
My friendly local electrician has splices for this size of wire and a
crimper...I crimped all mine and then flowed some solder in the joint
for good measure...Would this be an OK appraoch?
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Moving Battery and howto
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
--> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 06:59 PM 6/8/2005 +0200, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider"
>--> <glastar@gmx.net>
>
>Dear all,
>
>I woudl like to ask for your advice, my plane (a Glastar) is quite nose
>heavy with the current setup the Battery is directly behind the copilot
>seat. Now I would like to move it another 8-10 ft to get a better
>setup, the question is, can I just get some additional cable and some
>kind of butt splices to extend it further after? If yes, where can I
>get such splices for AWG 2 cables?
You betcha . . . but they are bound to be crimp type
splices and will need the proper tool for installation.
You already have ring terminals crimped or soldered to
the battery end of the cables . . . crimp or solder terminals
to your extension cables and BOLT them together as a splice.
If you can find some double-walled, super-heat shrink to
encapsulate the joints, fine. Otherwise, two or three layers
of plain-vanilla heat shrink will do.
Bob . . .
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: battery maintainer More |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul Wilson <pwilson@climber.org>
I have an "automatic 1.5 amp Schumacher SE-1-12S" I use all the time for
various batteries, tractor, un-used truck etc. This unit is stocked a the
local battery store so is readily available. I think I got mine at Walmart
years ago. With all the discussion I decided to see how it works. I put it
on a yellow Optima which is a deep cycle spiral glass matt 750 cca, 55AH.
Too big for a plane but a good choice for a car/truck. Weighs 46 pounds.
I just clock watched to see what the volts were.
initial 12.38 after sitting for 6 months
1 minute 12.94
2 minutes 13.45
1 hour 12.76
3 hours 12.67
22 hours 12.68
Don't know how high it got.
To lazy to do the same test on my small lawn tractor battery (similar to
a light plane battery). It is a glass matt with 340 cca, ?AH and after a
being plugged in for a week I remember the volts were around 12.6.
The charger sells for $42 to $27 on the net, locally for $28.95.
Seems like it wont hurt a battery if left plugged in for long periods. It
comes with a bracket to mount under the hood of a car and had bolted
eyelets. A portable version with clips is SE1562A sells for an extra $4
locally.
Paul
Message 28
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| Subject: | choosing which loads go on the Main Buss and E-Buss |
SpamAssassin (score=-2.561, required 4, autolearn=not spam, AWL 0.04,
BAYES_00 -2.60)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry E. James" <larry@ncproto.com>
New conundrum. I'm building my load spreadsheet and seeing
that a lot of pilot choice and procedure enters into the
decision of where to route certain loads (pieces of
equipment). Where I'm currently headed is to minimize the
equipment on the Battery Buss (because it is always on) and
limit the E-Buss equipment to first 8 amps and second just
what is necessary to get me down. Everything else goes on
the Main Buss. Sounds simple, but in the few examples of
other's Load Analysis I have seen; different thinking is
evident. What's up ?? Can I get some direction ??
as always, thanks
--
Larry E. James
Bellevue, WA Harmon Rocket
Message 29
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BAYES_00 -2.60)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Larry E. James" <larry@ncproto.com>
>>>That's exactly where I got to Larry except I really
don't believe a
>>>battery will fail...I mean maybe short a cell or go open
circuit...In
>>>that case the primary alt will continue to run the ships
power.
>>>
>>>Like you the sd-8 (infinite flying time) vs a hunking
great weight of
>>>lead (some limited flying time) was a no brainer.
>>>
>>>My only issue is will an SD-8 keep up with an electric
fuel pump us I
>>>have no mechanical pump?...Really must get around to
measuring the draw
>>>one of these days..
>>>
>>>In my current plane I have a home grown version of the
dual batt set
>>>up...More than once I have come back to the hanger with
dead batteries,
>>>due mainly to the hangar power supply going off and not
charging the
>>>batts...I.e how do you KNOW how much flying time you got
in those
>>>batteries.
>>>
>>>After 5 years I found this to be an ongoing
problem...Unless one
>>>actually changes out the batteries yearly of course
which I have not.
>>>
>>>Frank
>>>Corvallis Oregon, RV7A
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 vs. Z-14
SpamAssassin (score=-2.56,
>required 4, AWL 0.04, BAYES_00 -2.60)
>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht
<paulfolbrecht@yahoo.com>
>
>Now I am confused b/c in searching the archive doing my
research I came across
>a thread that specifically stated that the SD-8 MUST in
fact have a batt online
>to get excited. If what you say is true I would also
consider a 2nd batt
>totally unnecessary.
>Paul
To Frank, I agree, and your experience seems to show the
wisdom in changing out the battery regularly. I'm planning
on replacing the battery at each annual. A bit overkill,
but cheap assurance. I also have gathered from this list
and Bill himself at B&C that an open battery failure is
highly unlikely. Using Bob's language, this is a very small
drop in my worry bucket ..... but it's nice to have it
covered with little or no compromise.
To Paul, I also heard this; but heard straight from the guy
that designed and builds the SD-8 that it does produce power
in the event of an open battery. Please someone step in
here: I am likely to mis-understand what I'm told by my lack
of knowledge / experience with this ..... so am open to
correction. And if I am mistaken, I would not blame Bill
...... I would blame my processing :-)
BTW, I met Bill this last weekend. What a genuinely great
person. I am pleased to have spent some time with him and
proud to be using his products. Truly a neat and
knowledgable person.
Larry
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Capacitance style fuel level sensor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: marknlisa@hometel.com
Before using Jim Weir's method---check the new ICs:
http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0,2877,AD7745,00.html
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
Phone (508) 764-2072
Email: emjones@charter.net
"Hey, it isn't rocket surgery!"
--anonymous
Message 31
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| Subject: | Moving Battery and howto |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 04:03 PM 6/8/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
><frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
>My friendly local electrician has splices for this size of wire and a
>crimper...I crimped all mine and then flowed some solder in the joint
>for good measure...Would this be an OK appraoch?
Sure . . . if the tool is the right one for the terminals,
solder adds nothing of value to the joint.
Bob . . .
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Aerosport Alternator and Overvoltage |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:06 PM 6/7/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Denis Walsh <denis.walsh@comcast.net>
>
>I can add a single point of data. I have a 40A Denso from Niagara.
>I have taken it to no load several times, both inadvertently and
>vertently. Not knowing any better, I just wanted to see if pulling
>the B lead circuit breaker would shut it down. What the hay, we are
>experimenters ain't we?? It did, and nothing else happened that I
>know of. I have also shut it down in flight several times using the
>alternator switch which is feeding the 12V to the alternator
>(regulator). This line goes by several names, but it is not field
>current; but it can be used for turn the alternator on and off, which
>I do every flight.
I have to believe that any manufacturer worth their
salt would show that their product can withstand a
load dump.
The experiences cited by Vans customers with respect
to loss of alternators when switched off while under
load gives rise to a suspicion that the alternators in
question were not the best combination of altenrator/
regulator the industustry knows how to produce.
>Consequently I am using Bob's (discontinued, I believe) OV module
>with the contactor on the B lead (and on the 12V line to the
>regulator) for (additional) OV protection.
The OVM-14 crowbar ov module is still very much in production
and one solution to adding ov protection to alternator systems
that will accommodate the builder's design goals. It's sold
by B&C and illustrated in several of the Z-figures.
What has been discontinued is the 'Connection's recommendations
for incorporating ov protection using a b-lead contactor in
conjunction with the ov module for lack of data on various
alternator characteristics and lack of b-lead contactor KNOWN
to open reliably while the supply voltage being disconnected
is rising rapidly for the moon.
>Being a belt and suspender fellow, and stubborn by nature I also have
>Bob's low volts warning flasher mounted in line with my nose.
This is not a belt-n-suspenders item but ONE of THREE items
recommended in EVERY power generation control system irrespective
of type: (1) Regulator, (2) ov protection, (3) active notification of
low voltage.
>I love my 40A Denso, and know many (virtually all of Bart's
>customers) who have one. Have heard of only one failure at about 700
>hours, which may be related to vibration. If so it would be
>compelling evidence that B&Cs version is worth the extra bucks just
>for the balancing. But I wish they would retain that internal
>regulator to save a couple hundred bucks. It has passed my tests so
>far, and its charging volts seems to be just right.
>
>WARNING: This Denso is not the same as the one Van's sells! It looks
>a lot like it but Van's 60A model is rebuilt with a much much
>different internal regulator in it. The one Niagara sells, and its
>deluxe brethern from B&C is brand new and has later technology.
>
>I repeat the introductory remark. This is a single point of data.
>Not recommending any one else perform my test! Especially don't do
>it if you have a Van's 60A alternator!
>
>I also have a radio master switch and a Cessna split master switch
>but have renamed them because I hate to admit that I use them. I
>like them and they have advantages which I feel outweigh the risks of
>having them. Other than these minor flaws in my thinking I am a firm
>disciple of Bob N's.
Good information sir. Thank you for sharing.
Bob . . .
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Capacitance style fuel level sensor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:37 PM 6/8/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: marknlisa@hometel.com
>
>Before using Jim Weir's method---check the new ICs:
>http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0,2877,AD7745,00.html
Cool chip. Thanks for the heads-up!
Bob . . .
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Z-19 vs. Z-14 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
>To Frank, I agree, and your experience seems to show the
>wisdom in changing out the battery regularly. I'm planning
>on replacing the battery at each annual. A bit overkill,
>but cheap assurance. I also have gathered from this list
>and Bill himself at B&C that an open battery failure is
>highly unlikely. Using Bob's language, this is a very small
>drop in my worry bucket ..... but it's nice to have it
>covered with little or no compromise.
>
>To Paul, I also heard this; but heard straight from the guy
>that designed and builds the SD-8 that it does produce power
>in the event of an open battery.
To the best of my knowledge, the SD-8 would always run
with battery disconnected IF a battery were present to
get it started. The question we need to get an answer
to is "Will the SD-8 START UP and run regulated with no
battery and ONLY a filter capacitor across its output
terminals?"
The original regulator would not offer this capability
but I don't know that they're still using the same
regulator. I'll find out.
Bob . . .
Message 35
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DonVS" <dsvs@comcast.net>
Bob,
Now that you have found and recommend a cap tester and a separate load
tester, how about a short article on what to test, how often to test and any
other pertinent info you feel would be of help. This way we would all be on
the same page with this equipment. Thanks. Don
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Capacitance style fuel level sensor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
Eric
Do I understand this correctly? It appears that your recommendation is a
"single chip" solution to this problem. Might you consider producing these
and selling them?? I need two of them for my "Vans" capacitance senders.
Charlie Kuss
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: marknlisa@hometel.com
>
>Before using Jim Weir's method---check the new ICs:
>http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0,2877,AD7745,00.html
>
>Regards,
>Eric M. Jones
>www.PerihelionDesign.com
>113 Brentwood Drive
>Southbridge MA 01550-2705
>Phone (508) 764-2072
>Email: emjones@charter.net
>
>"Hey, it isn't rocket surgery!"
>--anonymous
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Intercom Wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
At 06:48 AM 6/8/2005, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rv-9a-online <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
>
>Guy, the Sigtronics instructions are not particularly clear.
>
>Using two-wire shielded cable, with the shields grounded to a single
>point ('A') at the intercom end, wire in these three signals. In each
>cable, use one wire for signal (both ends), one wire for signal ground
>(both ends) and the shield (intercom end only).
Hmmmm. This leads me to think I might have wired the headphone and mic
jacks incorrectly. I used two conductor shielded for the headphones, with
ring and tip in the conductors, and shield from barrel to 'A'. Should I
have used three conductor shielded and not grounded the shield at both
ends? Is that the same for the mic? Should I have used two conductor
shielded for the mic, instead of one conductor shielded?
Thanks Vern.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
Message 38
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|
| Subject: | Re: Capacitance style fuel level sensor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker@optonline.net>
This is a great part but is intended for use with silicon capacitance
sensors (e.g. silicon capacitance pressure sensor) and as such works
with very low capacitances. The capacitance fuel level sensors are
typically 1-2 orders of magnitude greater than what this chip will work
with (80-150pf empty to full for the fuel sensor vs 4 pf for the AD7745).
We may be using this for our new low (ultra low) pressure sensor, but it
is not suitable for the typical fuel sensors.
Dick Tasker
Eric M. Jones wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: marknlisa@hometel.com
>
>Before using Jim Weir's method---check the new ICs:
>http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0,2877,AD7745,00.html
>
>Regards,
>Eric M. Jones
>www.PerihelionDesign.com
>113 Brentwood Drive
>Southbridge MA 01550-2705
>Phone (508) 764-2072
>Email: emjones@charter.net
>
>"Hey, it isn't rocket surgery!"
>--anonymous
>
>
>
>
--
----
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
----
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Moving Battery and howto |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider" <glastar@gmx.net>
Should have thought about bolting before; as I reduce the cross section here
I might expect some warming up of the connection during starting I guess,
but I will follow this easiest route and butt splice just the battery-bus
items.
Many thanks for the advice!
Werner
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Moving Battery and howto
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
> At 06:59 PM 6/8/2005 +0200, you wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Werner Schneider"
<glastar@gmx.net>
> >
> >Dear all,
> >
> >I woudl like to ask for your advice, my plane (a Glastar) is quite nose
> >heavy with the current setup the Battery is directly behind the copilot
> >seat. Now I would like to move it another 8-10 ft to get a better setup,
the
> >question is, can I just get some additional cable and some kind of butt
> >splices to extend it further after? If yes, where can I get such splices
for
> >AWG 2 cables?
>
> You betcha . . . but they are bound to be crimp type
> splices and will need the proper tool for installation.
> You already have ring terminals crimped or soldered to
> the battery end of the cables . . . crimp or solder terminals
> to your extension cables and BOLT them together as a splice.
> If you can find some double-walled, super-heat shrink to
> encapsulate the joints, fine. Otherwise, two or three layers
> of plain-vanilla heat shrink will do.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Intercom Wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rv-9a-online <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
Guy, you can probably get away with your headphone wiring the way it
is. In this case, you are using the shield as a signal return, so it is
theoretically less noise immune, but not likely to be a problem usless
you are running it long distances next to disturbers (noisy signals).
I would make sure that your headphone jack is isolated from the airframe
with shoulder washers, available at B&C. This will prevent ground loops.
Similarly, you may get away with wiring the mic this way. Again, make
sure that you are using shoulder washers.
We're not building hi-fi's here! A little bit of electrical noise is
usually not noticable. The wiring that I recommended in my previous
email is 'ideal'-- suitable for electrically noisy environments.
Sometimes 'ideal' is not tearing out your wiring, and living with what
you've got.
Just use the shoulder washers, declare victory and go flying.
Vern
Guy Buchanan wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com>
>
>At 06:48 AM 6/8/2005, you wrote:
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rv-9a-online <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
>>
>>Guy, the Sigtronics instructions are not particularly clear.
>>
>>Using two-wire shielded cable, with the shields grounded to a single
>>point ('A') at the intercom end, wire in these three signals. In each
>>cable, use one wire for signal (both ends), one wire for signal ground
>>(both ends) and the shield (intercom end only).
>>
>>
>
>Hmmmm. This leads me to think I might have wired the headphone and mic
>jacks incorrectly. I used two conductor shielded for the headphones, with
>ring and tip in the conductors, and shield from barrel to 'A'. Should I
>have used three conductor shielded and not grounded the shield at both
>ends? Is that the same for the mic? Should I have used two conductor
>shielded for the mic, instead of one conductor shielded?
>
>Thanks Vern.
>
>
>Guy Buchanan
>K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
>
>
>
>
Message 41
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| Subject: | Thermocouples in an ultralight - theory help, please? |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Riley <richard@riley.net>
I'm installing a 22 hp single cyl 2 stroke in an open frame ultralight.
I'm using a CHT/EGT combo analog gauge. Can I transition from the
thermocouple wire to copper at the end of the probe wire? Since everything
is out in the open air, and thus should all be at about the same temperature?
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