---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 06/10/05: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:39 AM - Re: cannot download Z13 dwg...( or any Z) (Robert du Plooy) 2. 03:00 AM - Re: Re: cannot download Z13 dwg...( or any Z) (Wayne Glasser) 3. 05:24 AM - Weird audio panel panel (Mark & Lisa) 4. 05:29 AM - Re: Thermocouples in an ultralight - theory help, please? (Eric M. Jones) 5. 05:53 AM - Battery Maintainer More (John Schroeder) 6. 06:50 AM - Re: Re: Thermocouples in an ultralight - theory (Earl_Schroeder) 7. 06:51 AM - Re: Thermocouples in an ultralight - theory (Richard Riley) 8. 07:25 AM - Re: Re: battery maintainer More (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 9. 07:50 AM - Re: Difficulties with AC motor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 07:53 AM - Re: Battery Maintainer More (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 08:11 AM - Battery Charger/Maintainer/Desulphators (WRBYARS@aol.com) 12. 08:13 AM - Re: Thermocouples in an ultralight - theory (Dave Morris) 13. 08:31 AM - 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator () 14. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: battery maintainer More (Paul Wilson) 15. 11:14 AM - Denso Alternator's with built in regulator and field input. (Doerr, Ray R [NTK]) 16. 11:49 AM - Re: Denso Alternator's with built in regulator and field input. (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 17. 04:37 PM - Re: Re: battery maintainer More (David Carter) 18. 06:53 PM - Re: Devil's advocate (Mike Larkin) 19. 07:39 PM - Near miss with lightning (David A. Leonard) 20. 07:52 PM - Re: Near miss with lightning (Cory Emberson) 21. 08:05 PM - Re: Near miss with lightning (Charlie England) 22. 09:25 PM - Re: Near miss with lightning (Dave Morris \) 23. 09:49 PM - Stuck transmit lite on microair 760 (Rick Fogerson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:39:19 AM PST US From: "Robert du Plooy" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: cannot download Z13 dwg...( or any Z) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert du Plooy" I can download most of the "downloads on Bob's website...however I cannot download the Zdwgs .pdf files? I only need to get Z-13...it comes up with the Adobe logo..but no download...is there a problem with the URL address ? Thanks Robert du Plooy ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:00:39 AM PST US From: "Wayne Glasser" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: cannot download Z13 dwg...( or any Z) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Wayne Glasser" Robert You may have the wrong version of Adobe, try updating it as I have experienced this problem before. Regards Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert du Plooy" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: cannot download Z13 dwg...( or any Z) > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert du Plooy" > > > I can download most of the "downloads on Bob's website...however I cannot > download the Zdwgs .pdf files? > > I only need to get Z-13...it comes up with the Adobe logo..but no > download...is there a problem with the URL address ? > > Thanks > Robert du Plooy > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:42 AM PST US From: "Mark & Lisa" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Weird audio panel panel --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark & Lisa" Ok Guy & Gals, Here's the deal. I've got a Terra TMA 340D audio panel that's been acting up. Everything seems to work except when I press the mic button to transmit on com 1/2 all I get is a carrier -- no mic audio. My (FAA certified) avionics guy has been over the thing a couple of times and can't find anything wrong with it. We assumed there might be a problem with the intercom. We took the intercom out and bench tested it -- it's fine. Since it works we know the headset mics and wiring to and from the mics is good. We then "borrowed" a panel from another individual and installed it my acft -- it worked fine. We took my panel back to the shop and still can't find anything wrong. We rigged a bench test environment that simulates my acft and the panel works fine on his bench. So, the question is: What type of problem would cause the audio panel to lose mic audio in the acft but not on the bench? Mark & Lisa Sletten Legacy FG N828LM http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:08 AM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Thermocouples in an ultralight - theory help, please? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" please? >Baloney. If, as the original poster suggests, the instrument and the >end of the TC probe are at the same temperature you could connect them >with anything you want to. Richard, I ditto your "baloney". What Richard says is on the money. I want to observe that arguments can go on forever because nobody will just take their thermocouple meter and run a little experiment. As a worst case, theory says, you might need a minor recalibration. So just do it. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones@charter.net "Life may have no meaning. Or even worse, it may have a meaning of which I disapprove." -- Ashleigh Brilliant ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:09 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery Maintainer More From: "John Schroeder" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" Hello Bob - I downloaded your paper that was cited in one of your posts this week, and also the pictures of the Harbor Freight load tester. I did a two pager of the latter pictures and email and folded it into the original paper for you. Let me know what email address I can send the combined .pdf file to. I hope this is a help to your busy world of helping us folks in the OBAM community. Cheers, John ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:40 AM PST US From: Earl_Schroeder Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Thermocouples in an ultralight - theory help, please? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Earl_Schroeder Richard [and Eric], I too ditto your "baloney". I was going to jump in but my energy level had peaked at the minimum level. I believe thermocouples are one of the most misunderstood systems in aircraft. Perhaps working with them for 30+ years at GE has enlightened me a bit. However, care must be taken with the unpowered meter only readouts since they are calibrated with a certain lead resistance. If confusion still exists, ask Richard for more details. Earl Eric M. Jones wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" > >please? > > > >>Baloney. If, as the original poster suggests, the instrument and the >>end of the TC probe are at the same temperature you could connect them >>with anything you want to. >> >> > >Richard, I ditto your "baloney". > >What Richard says is on the money. > >I want to observe that arguments can go on forever because nobody will just >take their thermocouple meter and run a little experiment. As a worst case, >theory says, you might need a minor recalibration. > >So just do it. > >Regards, >Eric M. Jones >www.PerihelionDesign.com >113 Brentwood Drive >Southbridge MA 01550-2705 >Phone (508) 764-2072 >Email: emjones@charter.net > >"Life may have no meaning. Or even worse, it may have a meaning of which I >disapprove." -- Ashleigh Brilliant > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:17 AM PST US From: Richard Riley help, please?@roxy.matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouples in an ultralight - theory help, please? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Riley help, please? At 09:07 PM 6/9/05, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" > please? > >Furthermore, the errors would not be "large" in any case. In fact, any >error will be exactly the difference in temperature between the >TC/copper wire junction and the copper wire/instrument junction. Unless >either of these junctions are very close to the engine, the practical >difference is minimal. Great, that's as I understood. I was afraid the error was a *function* of the temperature difference, some multiple of it, and would be amplified at the end. If it's exactly the same, in this installation it should be a degree or two. This installation is almost surreal in it's simplicity. 7 wires total - 2 each for CHT and EGT, one for a tach, one for ign and one for a starter. At the same time, in the same hangar, I'm doing a Z-14 fully redundant IFR panel, all glass WAAS/EFIS Uuber Cruiser. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:08 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: battery maintainer More From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Speaking of which I measured the behaviour of the Harbor freight $7 float charger. I don't think the battery I had was very discharged so when I hooked it it up it got the volts up fom 12.75 to 13 within about an hour...This morning its sitting at about 13.4V Seems OK for a 600mA charger don't ya think? Frank Hmmmm . . . doesn't like like this critter goes into much of a maintenance mode . . . endpoint voltage is less than the float voltage of a fully charged battery. Further, we don't know if it went into a top-off mode by pulling the battery up to better than 14 volts. >Don't know how high it got. > To lazy to do the same test on my small lawn tractor battery >(similar to a light plane battery). It is a glass matt with 340 cca, >?AH and after a being plugged in for a week I remember the volts were around 12.6. > The charger sells for $42 to $27 on the net, locally for $28.95. > Seems like it wont hurt a battery if left plugged in for long >periods. It comes with a bracket to mount under the hood of a car and >had bolted eyelets. A portable version with clips is SE1562A sells for >an extra $4 locally. You're correct, it won't hurt the battery on long term charge, but it would be interesting to know how well it works for topping off a dead battery and then storing it. The numbers you've cited don't offer warm fuzzies about it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:18 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Difficulties with AC motor --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:08 PM 6/9/2005 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: chad-c_sip@stanfordalumni.org > >In our own hangar we'll have no problem setting up our own ground cart to run >the A/C at full power. The desire was to have the ability to run a 110 >extension cord to any old outlet anywhere to cool the plane down a bit before >climbing in. Even if the A/C can only remove 1/4 the BTUs of heat as at full >power I'll take it. Instead of having the compressor come on only part time, >it'll just run 100% duty cycle. > >I'm not sure that the FBOs on foreign fields will let us borrow a GPU for 20 >minutes every time we want to fly home. And certainly, if the effective >cooling we get is near nil then we'll pull the AC-DC converter and give up on >the idea of running the A/C off 110 power. But until then I'd like to give it >a shot and see if it can actually cool the airplane down. After all, it's an >experimental airplane. This sounds like an experiment worth at least trying. The first experiment I would run is: (1) how long does it take to cool the airplane down to "tolerable" temperatures after a hot-soak on the ramp. I used to fly an A-36 with air-conditioning and it had enough cooling capacity to bring the cockpit down to tolerable in 2-3 minutes. A long 110 vac extension cord can probably be depended upon for 10A or less (about 1000 watts). You could install a 28v switch mode power supply that would deliver 35-40 amps. This supply should weigh under 10 pounds. Arrange to support ship's batteries with the supply and turn the A/C on a pre-determined and tightly observed number of minutes before boarding. The 60 A running load on batteries would be mitigated by 35 to 40A supporting power from the supply. This means ship's batteries need to support 20-30 amps for say up to 5 minutes. 150 ampere minutes is less than 3 ampere hours of battery capacity. Shouldn't be a big deal. Whatever you try that will allow long term operation at limited voltage has a number of risks. I think you'll get much better (and highly predicable) results from running the system at rated design voltage and installing limited ground support and/or up-sizing ship's batteries to support the requirement. If you wanted heavier duty ground support, you could develop a very light 2-cycle APU that could drive a 60-100A alternator. I suspect you could put this together for 20-25 pounds of weight budget. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:55 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery Maintainer More --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:46 AM 6/10/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" > > >Hello Bob - > >I downloaded your paper that was cited in one of your posts this week, and >also the pictures of the Harbor Freight load tester. I did a two pager of >the latter pictures and email and folded it into the original paper for >you. > >Let me know what email address I can send the combined .pdf file to. Thanks for the offer . . . I have Adobe Acrobat and have considered combining the documents as you've suggested. I'm leaning toward a rewrite of the battery chapter in the 'Connection to include essential particulars of battery maintenance and testing discussed here recently . . . a Rev 11.5 change that I could publish on the website and incorporate onto paper the next time we go to print. >I hope this is a help to your busy world of helping us folks in the OBAM >community. Thank you for the kind words . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:53 AM PST US From: WRBYARS@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery Charger/Maintainer/Desulphators luscombe-silvaire@yahoogroups.com, vintage-and-warbirds@yahoogroups.com --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: WRBYARS@aol.com Greetings to All, I've been reading the posts pertaining to battery maintenance and am wondering if any of you on the lists are, or have, used the charger/maintainer and desulphator units? For years I too had problems with battery operation and longevity, then I came across an article about desulphator's and It all made since. I got on the web and started researching these units, and desulphation itself, and thought I'd give it a try. The units from the company that I've included here were inexpensive so I ordered one. That was (2) years ago; I've taken batteries that my friends had taken out of their airplanes, cars, and trucks, as "dead", and ran them through the charging/desulphation process and have saved, and am now using about 95% of them. Periodically I'll hook my airplane, etc., up for a trickle charge and so far they haven't failed me when needed. I was just wondering If anyone else was or had tried this process. Also for you that like to build electronic "stuff", there are plans on the net to do your own. Bill Byars 1949 T8F _http://www.vdcelectronics.com/index.htm_ (http://www.vdcelectronics.com/index.htm) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:00 AM PST US From: Dave Morris help, please?@roxy.matronics.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouples in an ultralight - theory help, please? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris help, please? I for one would enjoy a discussion of how a spark plug CHT probe works. It looks to me like "a ring terminal connected to some red and white marketing hype" to produce an expensive part that nobody understands. What sort of EMF is produced, where is it produced, can I use regular ole butt splices to extend the special wires, and what other precautions do I need to take when running the wire through the baffling, through the firewall, up into the cockpit to my canopy-mounted instrument panel? If this has already been hashed out somewhere, point me to the site :) Thanks, Dave Morris At 11:07 PM 6/9/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" > please? > >Baloney. If, as the original poster suggests, the instrument and the >end of the TC probe are at the same temperature you could connect them >with anything you want to. The reason that one normally uses >thermocouple extension wire to connect a TC probe to the remote mounted >instrument is because they are frequently at different temperatures - >and probably unpredictably different. For that case it is important to >use extension wire. > >If the two junctions are at the same temperature, any emf generated is >either canceled out or is only the same as it the copper wire wasn't >there. That is, the terminals that the TC wire normally connects to on >the instrument are probably copper or brass or possibly nickel plated. >The connection between the TC wires generates an EMF that is canceled >out by the cold junction compensation circuitry in the instrument. If >you add a length of wire between the TC and the instrument, and assuming >the two junctions are at the same temperature, you have done nothing but >move the location of the cold junction - the EMFs at the instrument will >be exactly the same as without the additional copper wire. > >Furthermore, the errors would not be "large" in any case. In fact, any >error will be exactly the difference in temperature between the >TC/copper wire junction and the copper wire/instrument junction. Unless >either of these junctions are very close to the engine, the practical >difference is minimal. > >All the above applies to the original poster's situation. In a "normal" >GA or experimental with a closed cowl and a separate cockpit, the errors >could be significant. > >If you want more theory, just ask and I can give it to you. :-) > >Dick Tasker > >AI Nut wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: AI Nut > > > >Copper, indeed any metal that is not what that particular TC was > >calibrated with, will most likely incude large errors in the final readings. > > > > > >Robert L. Nuckolls, III help wrote: > > > > > > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > help, please? > >> > >>At 10:52 PM 6/8/2005 -0700, you wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Riley > >>> > >>>I'm installing a 22 hp single cyl 2 stroke in an open frame ultralight. > >>> > >>>I'm using a CHT/EGT combo analog gauge. Can I transition from the > >>>thermocouple wire to copper at the end of the probe wire? Since > everything > >>>is out in the open air, and thus should all be at about the same > >>>temperature? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> If you have a stand-alone gage (like View -C- in Figure 14-10 > >> of 'Connection or in: > >> > >>http://aeroelectric.com/articles/excerpt.pdf > >> > >> then the instrument is calibrated assuming that the cold > >> junction occurs inside or at the rear of the instrument. > >> In an airplane like an ultralight, your supposition that > >> ambient temperatures at a remote cold junction and at > >> the instrument will be fairly close is a good one . . . > >> as long as the remote junction is not exposed to localized > >> heating from the engine. > >> > >> The always-proper way to extend thermocouples in any > >> instrumentation package is with thermocouple wire which > >> is readily available as cited in another post. In this > >> case, however, you're not likely to introduce serious > >> errors by using copper to extend the wires. > >> > >> Bob . . . > >> > >> > >>. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >-- >---- >Please Note: >No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, >however, >that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily >inconvenienced. >---- > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:31 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >Any info on this alternator/regulator setup will be very handy.Am just unpacking my >Aero Sport engine with a 40AMP Alt. >Regards Chris Byrne Chris|: The 40 amps Denso is great and highly recommend it. No doubt similar to the one niagarairparts.com sells. E-mail the part number to me and I can get you detailed info. All the modern Denso have an IC chip voltage regulator (VR) that controls voltage and protects against over voltage (OV). You have choices: 1) Use the alternator with internal VR as per the installation instruction (if you dont have them see niagaraairparts.com). 2) Use alternator but add a b-lead OV protection device such as http://www.periheliondesign.com/LOVM.htm 3) Modify it for an external voltage regulator that has an OV protection or add a crow bar per Bobs instruction or buy a modern external VR with internal OV protection. 4) Buy B& C alternator and voltage regulator for over $600. Recommend choice #1. You will get different opinions and some feel the internal VR is not acceptable to use as is or at all. I respectfully disagree and 1000's are flying with no problem. In 10 years this will be old news and the internal regulator will be the accepted practice. External voltage regulators are some what a throw back due to technical limitations of old technology. Internal VR are safe and reliable and the service history really supports this. Dont recommend choice #2, add on OV protection on an alternator that has internal VR and internal OV protection. I am not against the external VR, but feel the internal version is excellent and works as is. Also the external b-lead OV disconnect relay may cause problems. Less is more, less failure points, weight and cost. If you want external protection than you should go the choice #3 or #4, in my opinion. Choice # 3 is possible and I have info on doing the mod, but have not tried the mod myself. I think this is a waste, but if you want to do this I can point you to info on how to do the mod and what external regulator to use. OV protection can be provided several ways. Choice #4, nice products but too expensive. I have bought 40amp Denso for $90 new and regulators for $30. I cant see almost $700 for an alternator for an experimental airplane. The concern Bob and others have with choice #1 is they feel that you can have a failure of the internal VR field driver transistor, causing an OV. In theory it is possible but no one has shown cases where any Denso, specifically a 40 amp model, failed in this manner that caused an OV problem. If anyone has step up to the plate and give the us the facts. The stories always seem very sketchy at best with no details. Many OV stories involve older planes with external voltage regulators that have two transistors and no OV protection. That is why add-on external OV protection modules were invented in the first place many decades ago, they needed them. The modern reliability of electronics in a Denso, makes the likely hood of having an OV failure a rare occurrence, not impossible but very unlikely. How likely is it that your wing will fall off? Impossible? No, unlikely? Yes. The IC chip in your Denso alternator is very sophisticated, with 1000-3500 transistors and internal fault protection and monitoring. The drive transistor, external to the IC, is part of the voltage regulators architecture. In the failure scenario people claim this fails, which by-passes the IC chip control, allowing the alternator to go to full output. For this to happen, the transistor must fail in a very specific way (short). I never heard anyone with definitive proof that this has ever happened in an alternator, or even know what the exact transistor part number is. To make comparisons about transistors failing in other applications is not valid unless you know what kind of transistor you are talking about and how it is used. I have not nailed down the exact transistor, such as a MOSFET, JFET or BJT, let me know if you find out. I am not going to destroy my alternator to find out. Denso USA can not provide the information, since all their real technical info is in Jap an. I have called Denso, auto electric shops and checked the Highway safety database for alternator failures, fires, recalls and service problems and the Denso, which seems to be very reliable and no reports of OV. Some alternators (Ford, Hitachi) have had some problems, causing auto fires, but not the Denso brand. Again the facts against the Denso, with the internal VR are few and far between. I guess B&C who sells a product that cost 3 or 4 or 6 times as much, is going to hype it a little, which is all fair in war and sales I guess. Not a put down of B&C, they make a great product but I find the prices too high. Even if a failure does occurs it would most likely cause a passive problem, meaning the alternator will just stop producing. All alternators for cars have internal a VR. Why? Also it is true getting an internal VR alternator certified in a factory plane may be difficult, but who cares if you have an experimental. Certification does not mean it is perfect; In fact all the old aircraft electrical systems based on a 1950 Ford auto technology is certified! There are 1000s of factory planes flying with truly terrible electrical systems everyday. In fact if you wanted to design an electrical system for a certified plane you could base it on a Ford model T generator and some mechanical VR (with points and relays) and get it certified, as long as it is like an existing design. I would much rather have a modern internally regulated Denso alternator. Just because it cant be installed in a 1959 Cessna does not make it bad. There are probably 100s or even 1000s of internally reg ulated Denso alternators flying around with no problem, not to mention millions and millions of cars, trucks and industrial equipment. Install your aerosport alternator and enjoy and don't worry. Cheers George --------------------------------- Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out! ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:06 AM PST US From: Paul Wilson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: battery maintainer More --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul Wilson Bob, Thanks for the comments. Paul ========= 0:59 PM 6/9/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > >At 09:00 AM 6/8/2005 -0600, you wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul Wilson > > > >I have an "automatic 1.5 amp Schumacher SE-1-12S" I use all the time for > >various batteries, tractor, un-used truck etc. This unit is stocked a the > >local battery store so is readily available. I think I got mine at Walmart > >years ago. With all the discussion I decided to see how it works. I put it > >on a yellow Optima which is a deep cycle spiral glass matt 750 cca, 55AH. > >Too big for a plane but a good choice for a car/truck. Weighs 46 pounds. > > I just clock watched to see what the volts were. > >initial 12.38 after sitting for 6 months > >1 minute 12.94 > >2 minutes 13.45 > >1 hour 12.76 > >3 hours 12.67 > >22 hours 12.68 > > Hmmmm . . . doesn't like like this critter goes into much > of a maintenance mode . . . endpoint voltage is less than > the float voltage of a fully charged battery. Further, > we don't know if it went into a top-off mode by pulling > the battery up to better than 14 volts. > > >Don't know how high it got. > > To lazy to do the same test on my small lawn tractor battery (similar to > >a light plane battery). It is a glass matt with 340 cca, ?AH and after a > >being plugged in for a week I remember the volts were around 12.6. > > The charger sells for $42 to $27 on the net, locally for $28.95. > > Seems like it wont hurt a battery if left plugged in for long periods. It > >comes with a bracket to mount under the hood of a car and had bolted > >eyelets. A portable version with clips is SE1562A sells for an extra $4 > >locally. > > You're correct, it won't hurt the battery on long term charge, > but it would be interesting to know how well it works > for topping off a dead battery and then storing it. The > numbers you've cited don't offer warm fuzzies about it. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:19 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Denso Alternator's with built in regulator and field input. From: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" I like the Denso Alternator unit that Aerosport Power sells. They have a 40Amp and an 80 Amp unit. Does anyone know the actual part numbers for these units and if there are other Amp version with these similar features and specs? Also if one of these were purchased at your local Auto Part dealer, is there anything that needs to be done with them to be able to be mounted and used on an Lycoming in an RV? Thank You Ray Doerr RV-10 40250 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:16 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Denso Alternator's with built in regulator and field input. From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I went to my local autozone and bout a Toyota Camry unit...This is a Denso unit but it is rebuilt...Lots of dtebate as to how reliable it will be. It will come with a serpentine belt so you will need a 3/8ths V pulley of about 2.5 inch...to 4" diameter...I got mine mail order from "Green Bay rebuilders"....They knew the bore diameter (15mm I think) and the required offset. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doerr, Ray R [NTK] Subject: AeroElectric-List: Denso Alternator's with built in regulator and field input. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Doerr, Ray R [NTK]" --> I like the Denso Alternator unit that Aerosport Power sells. They have a 40Amp and an 80 Amp unit. Does anyone know the actual part numbers for these units and if there are other Amp version with these similar features and specs? Also if one of these were purchased at your local Auto Part dealer, is there anything that needs to be done with them to be able to be mounted and used on an Lycoming in an RV? Thank You Ray Doerr RV-10 40250 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:01 PM PST US From: "David Carter" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: battery maintainer More --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Carter" As previously stated, I have a Schumcher and have reported that it applies a gradually increasing charging voltage until it hits 14.4 or so, then shuts OFF and lets battery self-discharge to 12.99 (13) v at which time it starts another charging cycle. - With a fully charged battery, it takes about 1 second to go from 13 to 14.4 v and maybe 15 minutes to much longer to self-discharge down to 13 v again. - With a discharged battery, it will hang in the 13.5 v area for a long time (at either 2 amps or 10 amps, selectable, with 10 amps being for faster recharge of a discharged battery), gradually increasing top 14.4 v again - may take 15 minutes, may take 30 minutes, may take an hour, but as the battery takes more charge, the cycle time decreases until it is "on 1 second" and "off for a long time". - I put the digital VOM on the two alligator clips on the battery terminals and sit and sip lemonade while watching the charger do its thing - I've gone thru 2 (still on my 2nd) - when it quits performing as I've described, the charger is broken or the battery is bad. It looks to me like the reported numbers that started this current "thread" were taken at random times, without any regard to where the charger and battery were in "the cycle of charge & discharge". So, I don't think the comment about "Hmmmm . . . doesn't like like this critter goes into much of a maintenance mode . . . endpoint voltage is less than the float voltage of a fully charged battery. Further, we don't know if it went into a top-off mode by pulling the battery up to better than 14 volts." reflects knowledge of the Schumacher performance - there is no "maintenance mode" - it shuts OFF - NO voltage, until it starts pumping current thru again at 13v up to 14.4. Just trying again to shed some light on how this charger works. Everytime I've commented in the past it seems to have gone unnoticed and un-acknowledged. David Carter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: battery maintainer More > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > At 09:00 AM 6/8/2005 -0600, you wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Paul Wilson > > > >I have an "automatic 1.5 amp Schumacher SE-1-12S" I use all the time for > >various batteries, tractor, un-used truck etc. This unit is stocked a the > >local battery store so is readily available. I think I got mine at Walmart > >years ago. With all the discussion I decided to see how it works. I put it > >on a yellow Optima which is a deep cycle spiral glass matt 750 cca, 55AH. > >Too big for a plane but a good choice for a car/truck. Weighs 46 pounds. > > I just clock watched to see what the volts were. > >initial 12.38 after sitting for 6 months > >1 minute 12.94 > >2 minutes 13.45 > >1 hour 12.76 > >3 hours 12.67 > >22 hours 12.68 > > Hmmmm . . . doesn't like like this critter goes into much > of a maintenance mode . . . endpoint voltage is less than > the float voltage of a fully charged battery. Further, > we don't know if it went into a top-off mode by pulling > the battery up to better than 14 volts. > > >Don't know how high it got. > > To lazy to do the same test on my small lawn tractor battery (similar to > >a light plane battery). It is a glass matt with 340 cca, ?AH and after a > >being plugged in for a week I remember the volts were around 12.6. > > The charger sells for $42 to $27 on the net, locally for $28.95. > > Seems like it wont hurt a battery if left plugged in for long periods. It > >comes with a bracket to mount under the hood of a car and had bolted > >eyelets. A portable version with clips is SE1562A sells for an extra $4 > >locally. > > You're correct, it won't hurt the battery on long term charge, > but it would be interesting to know how well it works > for topping off a dead battery and then storing it. The > numbers you've cited don't offer warm fuzzies about it. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:51 PM PST US From: "Mike Larkin" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Devil's advocate --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Larkin" Less than 10% is IFR, less than 1% without a VFR out. I have had to use a stby EFIS (attitude, altitude, and airspeed) when my vacuum pump failed in IMC. But I fly more then most about 850hrs. a year.... Mike A320, TS-11 Iskra, Lancair Legacy.. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Checkoway Subject: AeroElectric-List: Devil's advocate --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" Homebuilt fliers out there who are instrument rated and keep current and really do fly IFR in your plane...here is a poll of sorts: - What % of your flying is IFR? - What % of your flying is in solid IMC without a VFR "out"? I consider myself more active than the average private pilot who flies for fun. In the past 12 months, I flew 405 hours, 13.5 of which were actual instrument...3% of my flying. Approximately 3 of those hours were in solid IMC with no VFR "out." That's less than 1% of my flying. Zero hours IFR at night in the past year. Has anybody out there ever actually used a standby alternator in IMC? How about in VMC...has anybody had a primary alternator fail, and then flew multiple legs home (more than just a local hop, i.e. a real cross country trip) using the standby alternator? Just curious. do not archive )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com -- -- ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:37 PM PST US From: "David A. Leonard" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Near miss with lightning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David A. Leonard" I was standing in my garage today, during the light rain before a distant thunderstorm, thunder off in the distance, nothing going on nearby. I was leaning against the garage door track, wearing sox, standing on a slightly damp garage floor, talking to a friend in her car. Suddenely I got one hell of a shock, in my hand, that was on the track, down the right side of my body, and out my foot. The ball of my foot and my toes are still tingling now from the burn, this being three hours later. In the past, during an intense storm, I have seen sparks shoot off the garage door track, and shoot to the floor, and I have lost multiple door opener boards, so I was aware of the " potential. I really thought that the storm was off in the distance, nothing nearby. I guess I thought wrong! I'm happy to be alive! I have been doing some reading, apparently the charges travel 6-8 miles from the ground to the clouds. If you can hear thunder at all, you are in danger. I think that the metal garage door tracks are great antennae and though they are buried in the concrete, the ground is dry, and when they charge a lot, the electricity can jump the gap to the floor. I think the damp concrete and my sweaty hand were better conductors, and I completed the circuit, long before the charge was enough to jump to the floor. I always thought staying off the phone was bullshit, but I am rethinking that one. Large metal objects like phone wires, appliances and any other metal will act as antennas. While I am not sure if this counts as being " hit by lightning" , it is absolutely as close as I care to become intimate with the subject! YIKES, my wife was watching, they asked if I was okay, I said yes ( In shock I think..) and they left.. later I felt less okay...not sick or damaged, just that "cheated death again" type of rush letdown. I seem top be okay, I've been hit harder by 220, but YIKES. I think I am going to electrically connect all the garage door tracks, and then drive a six foot ground rod into the dirt driveway, and connect a piece of jumper cable wire between them to bond the electrical potential. Being that jumper wasn't cool. My thinking is that this will make the electrical charge of the nearby ground and the tracks equal. This will not stop a direct strike to the house, but I think it will remove the difference in charge between the tracks and the floor. Anyone know about this subject? The obvious answer is to stay away from the garage in lightning storms.. http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfjps/1400/shockinglecture.html Reverend Sparky ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:58 PM PST US From: "Cory Emberson" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Near miss with lightning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Cory Emberson" Dear Rev, WOW. Thanks for sharing your story - that is very valuable information! Glad you're OK. best, Cory -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of David A. Leonard Subject: AeroElectric-List: Near miss with lightning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David A. Leonard" I was standing in my garage today, during the light rain before a distant thunderstorm, thunder off in the distance, nothing going on nearby. I was leaning against the garage door track, wearing sox, standing on a slightly damp garage floor, talking to a friend in her car. Suddenely I got one hell of a shock, in my hand, that was on the track, down the right side of my body, and out my foot. The ball of my foot and my toes are still tingling now from the burn, this being three hours later. In the past, during an intense storm, I have seen sparks shoot off the garage door track, and shoot to the floor, and I have lost multiple door opener boards, so I was aware of the " potential. I really thought that the storm was off in the distance, nothing nearby. I guess I thought wrong! I'm happy to be alive! I have been doing some reading, apparently the charges travel 6-8 miles from the ground to the clouds. If you can hear thunder at all, you are in danger. I think that the metal garage door tracks are great antennae and though they are buried in the concrete, the ground is dry, and when they charge a lot, the electricity can jump the gap to the floor. I think the damp concrete and my sweaty hand were better conductors, and I completed the circuit, long before the charge was enough to jump to the floor. I always thought staying off the phone was bullshit, but I am rethinking that one. Large metal objects like phone wires, appliances and any other metal will act as antennas. While I am not sure if this counts as being " hit by lightning" , it is absolutely as close as I care to become intimate with the subject! YIKES, my wife was watching, they asked if I was okay, I said yes ( In shock I think..) and they left.. later I felt less okay...not sick or damaged, just that "cheated death again" type of rush letdown. I seem top be okay, I've been hit harder by 220, but YIKES. I think I am going to electrically connect all the garage door tracks, and then drive a six foot ground rod into the dirt driveway, and connect a piece of jumper cable wire between them to bond the electrical potential. Being that jumper wasn't cool. My thinking is that this will make the electrical charge of the nearby ground and the tracks equal. This will not stop a direct strike to the house, but I think it will remove the difference in charge between the tracks and the floor. Anyone know about this subject? The obvious answer is to stay away from the garage in lightning storms.. http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfjps/1400/shockinglecture.html Reverend Sparky ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:41 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Near miss with lightning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie England David A. Leonard wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David A. Leonard" > >I was standing in my garage today, during the light rain before a distant >thunderstorm, thunder off in the distance, nothing going on nearby. > >I was leaning against the garage door track, wearing sox, standing on a >slightly damp garage floor, talking to a friend in her car. Suddenely I >got one hell of a shock, in my hand, that was on the track, down the right >side of my body, and out my foot. The ball of my foot and my toes are still >tingling now from the burn, this being three hours later. > >In the past, during an intense storm, I have seen sparks shoot off the >garage door track, and shoot to the floor, and I have lost multiple door >opener boards, so I was aware of the " potential. I really thought that >the storm was off in the distance, nothing nearby. I guess I thought >wrong! I'm happy to be alive! > > I have been doing some reading, apparently the charges travel 6-8 miles >from the ground to the clouds. If you can hear thunder at all, you are in >danger. I think that the metal garage door tracks are great antennae and >though they are buried in the concrete, the ground is dry, and when they >charge a lot, the electricity can jump the gap to the floor. I think the >damp concrete and my sweaty hand were better conductors, and I completed >the circuit, long before the charge was enough to jump to the floor. > >I always thought staying off the phone was bullshit, but I am rethinking >that one. Large metal objects like phone wires, appliances and any other >metal will act as antennas. > >While I am not sure if this counts as being " hit by lightning" , it is >absolutely as close as I care to become intimate with the subject! > > >YIKES, my wife was watching, they asked if I was okay, I said yes ( In >shock I think..) and they left.. later I felt less okay...not sick or >damaged, just that "cheated death again" type of rush letdown. > >I seem top be okay, I've been hit harder by 220, but YIKES. > >I think I am going to electrically connect all the garage door tracks, and >then drive a six foot ground rod into the dirt driveway, and connect a >piece of jumper cable wire between them to bond the electrical >potential. Being that jumper wasn't cool. My thinking is that this will >make the electrical charge of the nearby ground and the tracks equal. This >will not stop a direct strike to the house, but I think it will remove the >difference in charge between the tracks and the floor. Anyone know about >this subject? > >The obvious answer is to stay away from the garage in lightning storms.. > >http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfjps/1400/shockinglecture.html > >Reverend Sparky > No hard scientific insight, but I can tell you that staying away from the garage during storms might be a very good idea, based on your accounts of prior hits. In one of my prior lives (electronics repair & installation) I did a lot of lightning related repairs. Most of my customers were limited to a single hit during my career, but I had a few customers that got hit several times over a 10 year span. One person had 5 or 6 hits. Some locations and/or structures just seem to attract higher than 'normal' lightning activity. Charlie ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:00 PM PST US From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Near miss with lightning --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" I learned some interesting lessons while living in Albuquerque in the late 70's. I had a large ham radio antenna on a 50 foot tower. Sometimes I could pull 2 or 3 inch arcs from the center conductor of my coax cable to the grounded chassis of my amplifier, even when there was no lightning, just rain. We have to remember that those clouds have a very different electrical charge than ground, whether there is lightning or not. You might be really surprised what happens to the charge on your fuselage just flying through the rain. Dave Morris At 09:26 PM 6/10/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David A. Leonard" > > >I was standing in my garage today, during the light rain before a distant >thunderstorm, thunder off in the distance, nothing going on nearby. > >I was leaning against the garage door track, wearing sox, standing on a >slightly damp garage floor, talking to a friend in her car. Suddenely I >got one hell of a shock, in my hand, that was on the track, down the right >side of my body, and out my foot. The ball of my foot and my toes are still >tingling now from the burn, this being three hours later. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:00 PM PST US From: "Rick Fogerson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Stuck transmit lite on microair 760 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" Hi Bob, I'm trying to trouble shoot a problem with the Microair 760 transeiver. With the microphone plugged into the jack, pushing the PTT button (ray allen stick grip) causes the red (transmit) lite on the transeiver to stay on after the button is released. Only when I pull out the mic does it go off. With the mic out, the red lite comes on when the PTT is pushed and goes out, as it should, when the PTT is released. Do you have any idea what might be wrong. Thanks, Rick Fogerson RV-3 about 2 months to flying Boise, ID