Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:09 AM - Re: Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 10:23 AM - Boost Pump Wiring (John Schroeder)
3. 06:49 PM - KT-76 Solder connector (Bill Judge)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 09:35 PM 6/13/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
>
>
> >Bob N wrote:
> >Okay, it's your considered recommendation that if one
> >purchases p/n (xxxxx) from supplier (YYYYY) then OV
> >protection is not called for. You've cited data to support
> >your advice. Now, how do we get this information into
> >the hands of the greatest numbers of builders?
>
>
>Bob, my advice is from a ranked amateur and offer it with no warrantee.
>You have served to improve the knowledge and best interested of count less
>builders, including myself. I dont think we need to disseminate my opinion
>further than this list.
>
>
> >George, you seem to have completely missed the point
> >I've been trying to illustrate during this endless
> >thread. YOU and many like you are building ONE airplane.
> >You may have conversed with others to gather data
> >on and make selection of specific components in
> >which you have either trust supported by repeatable
> >experiments or faith supported by the gross weight of
> >anecdotal information. In either case, you're certainly
> >free to go forward with your choice and I wish you well.
>
>
>There are no one-size fits all solutions. I have not listed any specific
>part numbers because frankly I dont want the liability. Second I have been
>honest that getting detailed info on a Denso alternator and design in next
>to impossible since all the engineers are in Japan. As far as anecdotal
>evidence, I have tracked down as much info on how transistors fail, why
>and what characteristics different transistors have. It is not a fact but
>a widely held electronics industry expectation that transistor are VERY
>reliable. The external V-regulator and crow bar is no doubt more bullet
>proof. I take your word on it based on your experience and it makes
>sense. I think for most builders they take things on faith and standard
>practice. No need to reinvent the wheel.
>
>
>I think the hey my Denso has worked for 10 years with no problems is just
>that, anecdotal. I agree. As far as tests, sadly are in Japan and in
>Japanese. I hear the Japanese are good with electronics. I am sure Denso
>with 20-30 years making alternators with internal VRs have tested them and
>done failure analysis. Granted a car is not an airplane and I have no proof.
>
>
> >Please understand that I write for thousands of builders
> >working on thousands of airplanes being fabricated all
> >over the world. Their choices for selection of a suitable
> >alternator MIGHT include part number (xxxxx) and maybe
> >they have access to supplier (YYYYY) but I would be
> >remiss in my duties if I were to LIMIT my recommendations
> >to this narrow range of choices . . . especially when
> >I have no data from any repeatable experiments
> >to support my advice. Further, there are MILLIONS of
> >alternators with THOUSANDS of part numbers that will
> >perform very well and free of concerns if we drive
> >probability of hazardous failure down with layered
> >systems architecture . . . this is a major component
> >of FAILURE TOLERANT design. You ASSUME that a part
> >will fail and then incorporate protection -OR-
> >alternate technology (Plan B).
>
>
>Bob, I understand all your recommendations. I understand from your
>analysis, lack of information and judgment you cant endorse it. I think
>your opinions are the most conservative and will provide a method of DC
>power production in an aircraft that provides repeatable reliability and
>a level of safety required in certified aircraft designs. However for me
>in a VFR RV (experimental) with an engine that does not require electrical
>power (mechanical systems and self sustaining ignition), I can get away
>with an alternate path to electric DC power generation. This path is using
>an internal VR alternator with no extra external OV protection. I have OV
>warning (large flashing red light) and a manual way to disconnect the
>alternator output (b-lead) from the system thru a CB. Works for me and me
>only.
>
>
>Others have used the Denso 40 amp, aka Niagara, with good results. Again
>far from rigorous scientific proof, but a collection of general facts,
>anecdotes and opinion. My recommendation is inferior to the method of
>using an external alternator regulator and an OV module, aka crow-bar, in
>a rigorous scientific way. However my design will work OK as intended and
>be safe in my opinion, while being lighter, simpler, and cheaper.
>
>
> >When I handed control lock keys of an explosively
> >launched recovery parachute controller to the pilot who
> >was going to depend on that system to safe his life
> >and perhaps his airplane, I could look him right in
> >the eye and offer that I have done the best I know
> >how to do. When I write words on this List and for
> >the 'Connection, I believe am operating with that
> >same sense of duty to offer the best and most
> >universally useable information available. I am
> >pleased that you have discovered what you believe
> >is the ultimate solution to your system design
> >goals and parts procurement issues. Please fly them in
> >good health. The odds are definitely in your favor.
>
>
>Mr. Nuckolls not to pander to you in anyway, sincerely you have single
>handedly educated thousands of pilot/builders about electrical systems.
>The knowledge of the aviation community in general is the better for your
>contributions. The average aircraft (homebuilt) electrical system has
>improved due to your efforts. I dont mean to undermine your methods,
>analysis or opinions. However I do pick a choose what features I install
>in my electrical system. The most notably is the internal regulated
>alternator. I think you have said this yourself, If it can fail assume it
>will and what will happen when it does. I have analyzed my system and find
>that all alternator failures will be passive and not a threat to safety of
>flight FOR ME. (Dont try this at home, your mileage may vary and this info
>is provided for entertainment purposes only, Sincerely Georges Lawyers,
>Dwey-Cheat'em and Howe)
>
>
> >But understand that I've obligated myself to operate
> >in a wider arena and to offer advice that permits
> >me to look any builder in the eye and offer that
> >it's the best and most universally applicable
> >technology I know how to do right now. I have no
> >FAITH in the universal performance of all the
> >automotive alternators available to the OBAM aircraft
> >community around the world but I do have the
> >knowledge of countless REPEATABLE EXPERIMENTS
> >conducted to craft the most failure tolerant
> >and hazard free systems I know how to do today.
>
>
>Amen, I have no way, other than FAITH, that the Denso alternator will not
>hurt me or the airframe, and the level of risk, is appropriate and I am
>willing to accept it and understand it. I have determined that my old
>Collins transponder and new Icom A200 (without OV protected power supply)
>may likely be damaged. Other equipment is OV protected internally and if
>damaged the manufacture assured me the damage would be repairable at
>nominal cost. Plan A never have an electrical failure. My maintenance plan
>to assure reliability is checking electrical volts and amps carefully for
>any sign/trend of impending failure, replace battery on regular basis and
>never over load alternator. During flight test I will thermocouple
>alternator to determine operating temps are acceptable. Blast cooling tube
>will be installed.
>
>
> > I'm not here to argue against the gospel of
> >Nipon Denso or any other. I have tools called
> >Failure Mode Effects Analysis, decades of experience
> >with others who design, build and fly airplanes
> >and a personal goal of understanding how things
> >work and sharing that with anyone who has an
> >interest. I cannot advise a builder to adopt a
> >design philosophy that I do not understand or that
> >he cannot understand AND CONTROL.
>
>
>Bob, no one mounting the sermon; You are right you dont have ABSOLUTE
>control and dont have complete understanding how the IC chip and
>transistor works in a Denso. I have gone as far as I needed to see the
>truth, GOOD ENOUGH for me, no more or less. I really think alternators
>with internal regulators are getting better and soon will have failsafe
>internal regulators. The auto industry will demand it and we will benefit
>from it.
>
>
>Other alternators like Mitsubishi have also worked well, and from my
>research others like Delco/Motorola/Hitachi have had poor service history
>according to the Highway Safety foundation. The Denso has just happened to
>become the De-facto choice for homebuilders, proven to be reliable in
>cars, industrial equip and planes, size, weight and the dual internal fans.
>
>
>I looked at the problem of over voltage, load dump, transient voltage and
>equipment protection and found that it is acceptable that my system suffer
>an OV condition, so reliably is moot. However I prey that it will be as
>reliable as I think it will be and as others have experienced. The chance
>of fire or catastrophic failure of the alternator is nill. I do run the
>risk of some equipment damage if a rare OV occurred, but that may be
>limited to a few hundred dollars of damage. That is where I am putting my
>faith, but this is a special system design and meets my fault tolerance
>analysis.
>
>
>If it can fail it will and any failure should not cause a hazard. Amen, we
>shall now turn our Aeroelectric Hymnal to page XX.
>
>
> >Bob . . .
>
>
>All the best and I thank you again for forcing us to critically think thru
>out systems. Even if it is not the perfect solution for ALL at least it is
>MY system and I have knowledge of the risk and benefits. I am searching
>for the lightest and most reliable electrical system I can get, and I
>accept the risk of an OV as unlikely but an acceptable one. Bob I have
>learned a lot from your books and forum.
Carefully considered and well put sir . . . with one minor
exception. I hope I'm not "forcing" anyone to do anything,
even if it's to exercise the benefits of critical thinking.
I appreciate your participation here on the List. The quality
of our critical thinking can only grow when we have multiple
gray matter masses considering the questions!
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Boost Pump Wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Hello Bob -
Attached is a wire sheet showing the wiring for a Dukes Fuel pump that we
installed in our Lancair ES. For some reason, Dukes keeps voltage on the
lead that is not in use - as designated by the switch position. We
discovered this when we turned the pump on for a quick check and both
annunciator lights lit up.
We tested a solution of inserting diodes in line on each power lead to the
pump. This works great. We used the 1n5400 diodes, but I wonder if the 3
amp capacity is sufficient. Dukes recommends a 7.5 amp fuse for the device.
Any comments on:
(1) The wiring itself?
(2) The size of the diodes?
Many thanks,
John Schroeder
--
Message 3
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| Subject: | KT-76 Solder connector |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Judge <bjudge@gmail.com>
Hello All:
I'm installing a KT-76 in my RV-8 and would like to be able to easily
disconnect the transponder from the co-ax but it has a solder
termination rather than a BNC. Does anyone know if there is BNC
version of this connector?
If not then I'll put a connector down the line a few inches but that
would be adding more places for failure...
Thanks in advance.
Bill Judge
N84WJ
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