Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:56 AM - Boost Pump Wiring ()
2. 08:21 AM - Re: Boost Pump Wiring (John Schroeder)
3. 10:36 AM - Re: Boost Pump Wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 11:02 AM - Re: Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator (gert)
5. 12:58 PM - Re: Boost Pump Wiring (John Schroeder)
6. 01:33 PM - Re: Boost Pump Wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 01:36 PM - Re: Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 08:30 PM - Re: Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 11:29 PM - Re: Revision 11 is in print (Paul Kuntz)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Boost Pump Wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
6/18/2005
Hello John, I am curious about your wiring set up. I also have a two stage
Dukes electric fuel boost pump in my KIS, but did not receive any wiring
diagram with the pump. (It is really only a priming pump in my set up since
it should never be turned on in flight unless the engine driven pump has
failed).
Since your wiring diagram did not come through the list could you please
email it to me?
I am puzzled as to how the high boost lead could have significant voltage
and current in it when voltage and current is only being sent into the
pump's low boost windings by the switch. One explanation could be that some
voltage is being induced into the high boost windings by the rotation of the
pump motor armature. But if the high boost circuit is open at the switch end
how could there be any flow of current?
I can understand voltage / current being available in the low boost windings
when the switch is in the high boost position because the pump may have
internal wiring that applies incoming current to both sets of boost windings
when current is sent into the pump motor on just the high boost lead by the
switch
You don't have some kind of special Dukes switch do you?
Thanks for your help.
OC
PS: You really think that the pump switch contacts need diode protection
because of an inductive spike generated when the pump motor is turned off?
Time: 10:23:19 AM PST US
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Boost Pump Wiring
From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder"
<jschroeder@perigee.net>
Hello Bob -
Attached is a wire sheet showing the wiring for a Dukes Fuel pump that we
installed in our Lancair ES. For some reason, Dukes keeps voltage on the
lead that is not in use - as designated by the switch position. We
discovered this when we turned the pump on for a quick check and both
annunciator lights lit up.
We tested a solution of inserting diodes in line on each power lead to the
pump. This works great. We used the 1n5400 diodes, but I wonder if the 3
amp capacity is sufficient. Dukes recommends a 7.5 amp fuse for the device.
Any comments on:
(1) The wiring itself?
(2) The size of the diodes?
Many thanks,
John Schroeder
Message 2
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"aeroelectric-list@matronics.com" <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
| Subject: | Re: Boost Pump Wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
OC -
The problem comes when you tap off of the hot side of the switch to get
power to a lamp (LED) on the annunciator panel. This provides a path for
current from the pump to go through the annunciator panel to ground. With
the boost pump disconnected, the low boost lamp is lit when the switch
goes from the down position (2-10 progressive switch) to the mid position.
When the switch goes to the full up position, the low boost light goes out
and the high boost light comes on. The lamps get their power from their
respective switch contacts.
The pump wired iaw the Dukes diagram (I discarded the primer circuitry
from their diagram). When the switch is put from down to mid, both lights
come on. When it goes from mid to full up, both lights stay on.
Another builder has his pump wired per the attached diagram and got the
same situation. He measured the voltages and said that there is voltage on
the low side when the switch is in the high position and vice versa. He
put a diode in the wire to the high side of the pump. He gets just the low
boost light with the switch in the low position. But, he gets both lights
when the switch is in the high position.
The diodes in line on the low wire and high wire are to simply prevent
current flow back to the lights. I get power to the respective light from
the switch contact, and thus do not need the current from the pump. I
realize that this setup does not tell me that either the pump is running
or that it is pumping fuel. I can get a fuel pressure reading to tell me
that the pump is putting out pressure. The lamps serve as a reminder that
the pump switch is on and in what position.
I would appreciate your thoughts on this. Wirebook page is attached.
Cheers,
John
On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 07:54:00 -0400, <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
> 6/18/2005
>
> Hello John, I am curious about your wiring set up. I also have a two
> stage Dukes electric fuel boost pump in my KIS, but did not receive any
> wiring diagram with the pump. (It is really only a priming pump in my
> set up since it should never be turned on in flight unless the engine
> driven pump has failed).
>
> Since your wiring diagram did not come through the list could you please
> email it to me?
>
> I am puzzled as to how the high boost lead could have significant
> voltage and current in it when voltage and current is only being sent
> into the pump's low boost windings by the switch. One explanation could
> be that some voltage is being induced into the high boost windings by
> the rotation of the pump motor armature. But if the high boost circuit
> is open at the switch end how could there be any flow of current?
>
> I can understand voltage / current being available in the low boost
> windings when the switch is in the high boost position because the pump
> may have internal wiring that applies incoming current to both sets of
> boost windings when current is sent into the pump motor on just the high
> boost lead by the switch
>
> You don't have some kind of special Dukes switch do you?
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> OC
>
> PS: You really think that the pump switch contacts need diode protection
> because of an inductive spike generated when the pump motor is turned
> off?
>
> Time: 10:23:19 AM PST US
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Boost Pump Wiring
> From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder"
> <jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
> Hello Bob -
>
> Attached is a wire sheet showing the wiring for a Dukes Fuel pump that we
> installed in our Lancair ES. For some reason, Dukes keeps voltage on the
> lead that is not in use - as designated by the switch position. We
> discovered this when we turned the pump on for a quick check and both
> annunciator lights lit up.
>
> We tested a solution of inserting diodes in line on each power lead to
> the
> pump. This works great. We used the 1n5400 diodes, but I wonder if the 3
> amp capacity is sufficient. Dukes recommends a 7.5 amp fuse for the
> device.
>
> Any comments on:
>
> (1) The wiring itself?
>
> (2) The size of the diodes?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> John Schroeder
--
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Boost Pump Wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:54 AM 6/18/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
>
>6/18/2005
>
>Hello John, I am curious about your wiring set up. I also have a two stage
>Dukes electric fuel boost pump in my KIS, but did not receive any wiring
>diagram with the pump. (It is really only a priming pump in my set up since
>it should never be turned on in flight unless the engine driven pump has
>failed).
>
>Since your wiring diagram did not come through the list could you please
>email it to me?
>
>I am puzzled as to how the high boost lead could have significant voltage
>and current in it when voltage and current is only being sent into the
>pump's low boost windings by the switch. One explanation could be that some
>voltage is being induced into the high boost windings by the rotation of the
>pump motor armature. But if the high boost circuit is open at the switch end
>how could there be any flow of current?
>
>I can understand voltage / current being available in the low boost windings
>when the switch is in the high boost position because the pump may have
>internal wiring that applies incoming current to both sets of boost windings
>when current is sent into the pump motor on just the high boost lead by the
>switch
>
>You don't have some kind of special Dukes switch do you?
It's been a LONG time since I put my hands on one of these
but I seem to recall that the motors are series wound with
a tapped field. Full field gets you low speed, partial field
is high speed. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Boost_Pump.gif
It's readily apparent that voltage will appear on the unused
input lead while the other one is selected for operation.
Diodes are called for as proposed in the original post.
This is another case where the diode bridge rectifier
similar to those used in the e-bus normal feed path
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/s401-25.jpg
might be useful. Yeah, there are "too many" diodes
in the assembly . . . but they mount with great mechanical
convenience. Have plenty of current capability. The're
fitted with mates to fast-on terminals.
>PS: You really think that the pump switch contacts need diode protection
>because of an inductive spike generated when the pump motor is turned off?
Probably not. Arcing from a spinning-down motor is pretty
minimal.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: gert <gert.v@sbcglobal.net>
It is my understanding that on some denso's one can swap the brush
holder for a diff model, so that one can use it with outside regulator,
any such info available on the one used on the Suzuki Sidekick???
The prob I see right now with the suzuki alternator is that one of the
field brushes is fed and physically screwed to the B post. so it is
hard to remove the regulator and run the brushes out
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Boost Pump Wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
>> I can understand voltage / current being available in the low boost
>> windings when the switch is in the high boost position because the pump
>> may have
>> internal wiring that applies incoming current to both sets of boost
>> windings when current is sent into the pump motor on just the high
>> boost lead by the switch
>>
>> You don't have some kind of special Dukes switch do you?
>
> It's been a LONG time since I put my hands on one of these
> but I seem to recall that the motors are series wound with
> a tapped field. Full field gets you low speed, partial field
> is high speed. See:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Boost_Pump.gif
>
> It's readily apparent that voltage will appear on the unused
> input lead while the other one is selected for operation.
> Diodes are called for as proposed in the original post.
>
> This is another case where the diode bridge rectifier
> similar to those used in the e-bus normal feed path
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/s401-25.jpg
>
> might be useful. Yeah, there are "too many" diodes
> in the assembly . . . but they mount with great mechanical
> convenience. Have plenty of current capability. The're
> fitted with mates to fast-on terminals.
Bob:
I do not have a good recollection of the function of the bridge rectifier.
Is it possible to use one of them and provide a single diode function to
both the low and high lines going to the boost pump? This would negate
having to install two of them.
(2) There is a voltage drop across the diode, what is the drop on the
401-25 @ 13 v?
(3) Will this affect the operation of the pump?
Thanks for verifying our diagnosis of the problem and especially, why the
problem occurs.
John Schroeder
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Boost Pump Wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
>Bob:
>
>I do not have a good recollection of the function of the bridge rectifier.
>Is it possible to use one of them and provide a single diode function to
>both the low and high lines going to the boost pump? This would negate
>having to install two of them.
No, the "extra" diodes would make the system behave in undesireable
ways.
>(2) There is a voltage drop across the diode, what is the drop on the
>401-25 @ 13 v?
Same as as for any diode . . . .7 to 1.0 volts
>(3) Will this affect the operation of the pump?
Only slightly. Not enough to be concerned about it.
>Thanks for verifying our diagnosis of the problem and especially, why the
>problem occurs.
My pleasure sir.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 01:01 PM 6/18/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: gert <gert.v@sbcglobal.net>
>
>It is my understanding that on some denso's one can swap the brush
>holder for a diff model, so that one can use it with outside regulator,
>any such info available on the one used on the Suzuki Sidekick???
>
>The prob I see right now with the suzuki alternator is that one of the
>field brushes is fed and physically screwed to the B post. so it is
>hard to remove the regulator and run the brushes out
There is an article on the net that speaks to such a modification
on a "presolite" that looks like an ND alternator (both are probably
made by bosch!). See:
http://www.miramarcollege.net/programs/avim/faculty/north/alternator/
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 03:36 PM 6/18/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
><nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
>At 01:01 PM 6/18/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: gert <gert.v@sbcglobal.net>
> >
> >It is my understanding that on some denso's one can swap the brush
> >holder for a diff model, so that one can use it with outside regulator,
> >any such info available on the one used on the Suzuki Sidekick???
> >
> >The prob I see right now with the suzuki alternator is that one of the
> >field brushes is fed and physically screwed to the B post. so it is
> >hard to remove the regulator and run the brushes out
>
> There is an article on the net that speaks to such a modification
> on a "presolite" that looks like an ND alternator (both are probably
> made by bosch!). See:
Prof North tells me that the protocols for accessing his
college's website are a bit buggy. Several folks have told
me that their browsers won't find the root server if you
click on the whole link at once. Tnis may work better:
Click on this link first:
http://www.miramarcollege.net
When you have the college's front page up, then alt-tab back to
your e-mail client and click the second link. This works for
me 100% of the time while the direct link mostly hangs up.
Wunderful things these computers.
http://www.miramarcollege.net/programs/avim/faculty/north/alternator/
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Revision 11 is in print |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Paul Kuntz" <paul.kuntz@virgin.net>
Awhile back someone provide a link to a talk radio interview with Bob
Nuckolls. I've lost it -- could you provide it again?
Thanks,
Paul Kuntz
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