Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:09 AM - Re: Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator (Charlie Kuss)
2. 07:51 AM - Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator (modification) ()
3. 11:03 AM - Re: Internal Voltage Regulators ()
4. 11:23 AM - Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator (modification corrected again - part 3) ()
5. 11:23 AM - Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator (modification corrected again - part 3) ()
6. 11:23 AM - Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator (modification corrected again - part 3) ()
7. 11:28 AM - Re: Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator (Mark R Steitle)
8. 05:13 PM - Re: Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator (gert)
9. 07:06 PM - Re: Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator (George Braly)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator |
(modification)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net> (modification)
At 12:22 AM 6/20/2005, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
>
>Here is how to modify your Denso:
>
>I considered this mod but it's more effort than it is worth to me. For me
>the small fear that an internal regulator will cause an unlikely OV
>condition, is not enough to justify the surgery. But here is the info if
>you choice to do it, enjoy.
>
>http://us.f1f.yahoofs.com/bc/428f57b3_10738/bc/Aircraft+data/Converting+an+Alternator2.doc?bf.EktCBk1h2fJz7
>
>After you have hacked, pried, sawed, soldered and added more components
>and wires, you still have an alternator :- )
>You can set up a Denso for the "A" type external regulator (grounded
>regulator) or "B" type external regulator (grounded field). Most Denso's
>internal regulators are "A" type voltage regulators. The conversion is
>much easier if you also use an "A" type external VR. If you wire it for a
>"B" external regulator you will have to mod the brushes and brush housing.
>
>
>The down side of using an external "A" type VR is the field wire going
>from the external regulator, if grounded against the airframe, could cause
>the alternator to go to max output. This is a small issue. Just protect
>the field wire.
>
>You will need to pick an external regulator (A or B). Solid-state external
>VR's come in both "A" type and "B" type. The "A" type is not as common as
>"B", which has a better selection. As long as you protect the field wire
>from grounding the "A" type regulator works as well as the "B" type. The
>choice is yours. As far as OV protection you can use a crow-bar or
>purchase a modern solid state VR with OV protection built in. They cost
>$30-$70.
>
>A nice overview of alternator and regulator components inside a Denso:
>http://www.autoshop101.com/trainmodules/alternator/alt101.html
>(Diff between "A" and "B" regulators shown on page 30 thru 33 show
>regulator detail)
>
>
>Enjoy, consider NOT doing anything but bolting the stock Denso on with the
>internal regulator it came with and go fly. If you want to do it here is
>the info. Credit goes to "George's Falco" builder web site in New Zealand.
>The nice thing about his conversion is it looks stock and keeps the stock
>connector plug.
>
>Cheers George ATP, CFI, MSME
George,
Thanks for the links. However, both IE and Netscape can not reach the top
link in your post above.
Charlie Kuss
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator (modification) |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
(CORRECTED URL LINK TO INFO, I HOPE)
Here is how to modify your Denso:
I considered this mod but it's more effort than it is worth to me. For me the small
fear that an internal regulator will cause an unlikely OV condition, is not
enough to justify the surgery. But here is the info if you choice to do it,
enjoy.
http://tinyurl.com/8fca7
or
http://us.f1f.yahoofs.com/bc/428f57b3_10738/bc/Aircraft+data/Converting+an+Alternator2.doc?bfWmttCB9Bu9fJz7
After you have hacked, pried, sawed, soldered and added more components and wires,
you still have an alternator :- )
You can set up a Denso for the "A" type external regulator (grounded regulator)
or "B" type external regulator (grounded field). Most Denso's internal regulator
are "A" type voltage regulator, which makes the conversion much easier if
you use a "A" type external VR. If you wire it for a "B" external regulator you
will have to mod the brushes and brush housing.
The down side of using an external "A" type VR is the field wire going from the
external regulator, if grounded against the airframe, could cause the alternator
to go to max output. There are modern solid-state external VR's of the "A"
type and "B" type. The "A" type is not as common as "B", which has a better selection.
As long as you protect the field wire from grounding the "A" type regulator
works as well as the "B" type. The choice is yours.
A nice overview of alternator and regulator components inside a Denso:
http://www.autoshop101.com/trainmodules/alternator/alt101.html
(Diff between "A" and "B" regulators shown on page 30 thru 33 show regulator detail)
Enjoy, consider NOT doing anything but bolting the stock Denso on with the internal
regulator it came with and go fly. If you want to do it here is the info.
Credit goes to "George's Falco" builder web site in New Zealand. The nice thing
about his conversion is it looks stock and keeps the stock connector plug.
Cheers George ATP, CFI, MSME
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Internal Voltage Regulators |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
Stories from a NPR radio show ""CarTalk" are fun, but how does it apply to a Denso
alternator in you Sky Scooter 3000?
>Moral of the story: 1) Internal voltage regulators can go bad, and 2)
>Dealer maintenance couldn't come up with the simple solution.
1) Yea, but what is going on? What does that have to do with a Denso alternator?
2) So what, what does that prove?
Chevy? Delco? So what does that have to do with a Denso alternator.
Over-voltage and Overcharge? There is a big difference. Overcharge might mean 15V?
What voltage are we talking about?
NHTSA-national highway transportation safety association has several complaints
against Chevy's and batteries being ruined and needing to be replaced many times
in a short period of time. What does that prove. Moral of the story: Don't
use Delco products in your Sky Scooter 3000.
That is what I mean. All these rumors and stories are few and far between on facts.
What alternator? Why was the voltage? How high was the voltage? Did changing
the alternator solve the problem? What does this have to do with a Denso alternator?
This story even claims the auto dealer can't find a problem with the
alternator? Why is this important to us? It is irrelevant. You can't mix and
match alternator brands, models and application. So if the wing falls off a few
aircraft, say a T-34, than all aircraft, including your experimental, should
be grounded?
Look this is not rocket science, it is an alternator. Is it producing the proper
voltage or not? Voltage is easily checked. Dealer could not figure it out?
What does that mean? So what. Is the alternator putting out too much voltage or
not.
I do agree that anything can fail and it is OK to be suspicious, but no offense
this one case of a Chevy Impala does little to cast doubt on a 40-55 amp Denso
or infact any Denso model or internal voltage regulators in general. The only
thing you have is a guess by Brothers Ray or Tom about a Chevy Impala battery
problem. Great show and funny Guy's, but by their own admission they are not
rocket scientist. (Although they are very smart they do shoot from the hip, which
is the fun part of their show. Bogus!)
I looked up Delco and 2003 Impala electrical safety recalls, complaints, defect
investigation and service bulletins @ Nat Hwy Trans. Safety Assoc.:
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/recalls/recallsearch.cfm
NHTSA DATABASE:
2003 Chevy Impala:
4 electrical complaints, 11 technical service bulletins and 2 recalls.
(electrical issues not directly related to charging system or alternator but quality
issues)
All Delco electrical - Charging:
Complainants - (many) of replacing multiple batteries while the alternator checks
out OK
Tech Serv Bultn - Alternator: 4 TSB to replace parts various alternator components
Safety Recalls - No electrical fires or recalls of the alternator or charging system
My suggestion is avoid using Delco for your aircraft. BTW Japanese auto electrics
are not perfect and I am not picking on Delco, but that was the topic of discussion
a 2003 Impala.
Previous checks of Nippon Denso alternators found nothing in the NHTSA database.
Auto repair shops I talked to claim they never had a VR issue with a Denso alternator.
I do hear the brushes are the Denso weak link, but this would not cause
an OV or overcharge condition. BTW the Denso alternators have beautiful modular
bolt-in brush holder. You could almost replace it with the alternator still
on the engine in a few minutes.
You will find some electrical systems in a specific car brand or model have a pattern
of electrical problems, Ford, Hitachi for example. If you think aircraft
have a more severe operating condition than a car, I would point out car alternators
are crammed into some tight spaces, close to other components and hot
exhaust and turbochargers. The reason for most car/electrical fires is poor wiring
and too many components too close in a confined space. Also lights, massive
stereos, electronics and computers have a fairly high amp draw on auto charging
systems.
Lesion learned: Give your alternator breathing room, make good quality wiring
& wiring connections and don't continuously overload it.
I am not anti-American products, Chevy or Cartalk. Loved my 1967 and 69 Camaro's.
I also enjoy Car-Talk "Click and Clack". I listen to them every week. The point
is if we are going to draw conclusions about internal regulators you need
to look at the big picture and compare apples and apples.
If you hold a little Denso in your hand it looks like a quality piece of equipment.
Could it fail? Hell yes. Could it fail and cause a OV, hell may be? What
is the chance, slim if you go by service history alone. You can't compare one
brand to another and make a conclusion. It is like comparing a B&C setup to the
junk in a 1958 Piper, they both have external voltage regulators.
As far as a Denso voltage regulator, I still have a standing claim that there is
no evidence an OV condition has EVER happened in any plane using a Denso internal
voltage regulated alternator. There have been many problems with external
regulated alternators. If there has been an OV problem with a Denso alternator
I would like to have the info: Model number, component and sub-component that
failed, part number, how it failed, why it failed, indications of failure
and the result of the failure. Documented facts.
Moral of the story: Stuff happens. You can be paranoid and fixated on one detail
or one potential "single point" failure and loose sight of the big picture,
you need to get off the ground and actually fly the thing at some point. An internal
VR alternator is the easiest, lightest and least expensive installation,
while providing huge huge reliability.
Again a wing spar has one load path. If you let a super conservative structural
engineer design an airframe, like a super conservative electrical engineer would
design an electrical system, you would have a heavy airplane with wing struts
on your Glassair, Long-EZ, RV or Lancair. Yes it would be stronger , but it
would look like hell and be slow. As long as you don't go too fast and pull
too hard on the stick the wings always stay on. Same with the electrical system,
build it right and don't overload it. Don't go crazy making it redundant and
over protected, after all it is just a single engine airplane.
I am NOT saying Bob N's recommendations are too conservative, but the OV issue
has taken on a life of its own. Yes an external regulated alternator with crow-bar
is a great idea and should be predictable based on some service history behind
it. Is it more conservative? Yea may be, but it still makes sense. Has a
crow bar ever saved the day from a real OV condition?
However if you are flying around in a VFR experimental and the engine can run with
out electrical power, may be a single internal regulated alternator and one
battery makes sense for your design goals. I-VR's alternators are cheap, light,
easy to install and work real well. The big problem in the old day was I-VR
put out too much volts for the Gel cel batteries of the day, so people went
to external VR's with adjustable voltage setpoint. Today with SLA batteries the
I-VR setpoint is perfect for them, around 14.5V.
Why worry about your alternator going super NOVA when there is little evidence
it is a problem, just as you know your wing will not fall off (probably) without
struts. You have to go fly sometimes, and there will always be risk.
If you make your alternator OV proof, something else is going to fail: belt, bearings.
If you thought of every thing that can go wrong or fail on an airplane
you would not fly at all. An alternator spinning at 8,000 rpm could explode,
throw parts into the engine case or porp gov line, cause a massive oil leak and
fire. Let me put it this way, if my internal VR Denso was a poker hand, I would
be "all in". Some pilots think flying in anything less than a twin engine
turbo-jet powered aircraft is crazy, so what ever makes you happy.
Make the best quality installation you can and use good quality components (Denso
not Delco) and plan for success, but cover your back-side for any anticipated
failure. I propose making a simple, light and cheap electrical system that
is easy to install and maintain , while still getting the job done. This may not
be the right approach for all, but I believe the weights of experimentals have
increased due to overkill of systems. Part of the performance of a RV or other
experimetals is their light weight. Adding weight kills some performance,
utility and handling. Think about this every time you deviate from the kit makers
plans and add weight. You may have the best electrical system in world for
a RV, but you might also end up with the slowest and least useful payload RV
in the world.
There is a big advantage in using an I-VR alternator with little trade off. Consider
it and make your choice. I don't think you can go wrong either way.
Cheers George
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: Internal Voltage Regulators
>
> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
>Hello Fellow Builders, The "Car Talk" guys have a letter in today's
>column in the Washington Post from a reader whose 2003 Chevy Impala with less
>than 15,000 miles was overcharging and ruining the battery.
>
>The Chevy dealer replaced the battery and it happened again.
>
>Click and Clack blame the voltage regulator and say "replace the
>alternator".
>
>Moral of the story: 1) Internal voltage regulators can go bad, and 2)
>Dealer maintenance couldn't come up with the simple solution.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator (modification |
corrected again - part 3)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
(CORRECTED URL LINK TO INFO, I HOPE PART 3, DIRECT LINK TO BUILDERS WEB SITE)
I TRYED MAKING MY OWN LINK TO A MODIFIED DOC TO MAKE IT EASIER, BUT I HEAR IT IS
NOT WORKING. HERE IS THE DIRECT LINK, BUT TAKES A FEW STEPS.)
Here is how to modify your Denso:
FROM THE BUILDER WEB SITE:
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/georger/
-Select *electrical* on the left under *construction*
-When the electrical page comes up, scroll down to the bottom.
-The second to last paragraph, last sentence, click on the hypertext *alternator
page*
-Note steps 1 thru 5 are the same. Depending on if you want an "A" or "B" type
external regulator follow the different steps. It seems he is modifying two different
alternator types, but they are basically the same type alternator, both
have "A" type internal regulators, which is standard on the Denso.
Cheers George ATP, CFI, MSME
---------------------------------
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator (modification |
corrected again - part 3)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
(CORRECTED URL LINK TO INFO, I HOPE PART 3, DIRECT LINK TO BUILDERS WEB SITE)
I TRYED MAKING MY OWN LINK TO A MODIFIED DOC TO MAKE IT EASIER, BUT I HEAR IT IS
NOT WORKING. HERE IS THE DIRECT LINK, BUT TAKES A FEW STEPS.)
Here is how to modify your Denso:
FROM THE BUILDER WEB SITE:
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/georger/
-Select *electrical* on the left under *construction*
-When the electrical page comes up, scroll down to the bottom.
-The second to last paragraph, last sentence, click on the hypertext *alternator
page*
-Note steps 1 thru 5 are the same. Depending on if you want an "A" or "B" type
external regulator follow the different steps. It seems he is modifying two different
alternator types, but they are basically the same type alternator, both
have "A" type internal regulators, which is standard on the Denso.
Cheers George ATP, CFI, MSME
---------------------------------
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator (modification |
corrected again - part 3)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
(CORRECTED URL LINK TO INFO, I HOPE PART 3, DIRECT LINK TO BUILDERS WEB SITE)
I TRYED MAKING MY OWN LINK TO A MODIFIED DOC TO MAKE IT EASIER, BUT I HEAR IT IS
NOT WORKING. HERE IS THE DIRECT LINK, BUT TAKES A FEW STEPS.)
Here is how to modify your Denso:
FROM THE BUILDER WEB SITE:
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/georger/
-Select *electrical* on the left under *construction*
-When the electrical page comes up, scroll down to the bottom.
-The second to last paragraph, last sentence, click on the hypertext *alternator
page*
-Note steps 1 thru 5 are the same. Depending on if you want an "A" or "B" type
external regulator follow the different steps. It seems he is modifying two different
alternator types, but they are basically the same type alternator, both
have "A" type internal regulators, which is standard on the Denso.
Cheers George ATP, CFI, MSME
---------------------------------
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
Gert,
A while ago I posted a "how-to" on how I converted two 55A ND
alternators to external regulation. Search the A-E archives for "How to
Convert a Denso Alternator" for the posting. It requires a simple
modification to the brush holder.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gert
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: gert <gert.v@sbcglobal.net>
It is my understanding that on some denso's one can swap the brush
holder for a diff model, so that one can use it with outside regulator,
any such info available on the one used on the Suzuki Sidekick???
The prob I see right now with the suzuki alternator is that one of the
field brushes is fed and physically screwed to the B post. so it is
hard to remove the regulator and run the brushes out
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: gert <gert.v@sbcglobal.net>
Yes, I had seen that website before quite a while ago, that's what made
me start thinking.
well nothing ventured, nothing gained, I went to my local alternator
store and asked about the parts. got the spanish inquisition about what
model alternator(s) I was using. I finally got a word in edge wise and
said I could provide Lester numbers. Holy smokes, the red carpet was
rolled out. 2 seconds later I had the brush holder and terminal block.
the brush holder fits just great on my suzuki alternator, the terminal
block, although all the hole pitches are correct, the angle between the
terminal block mounting holes and the brush connection holes is sadly
wrong. I can make the brush and terminal an assembly, or, I can mount
the terminal block with 2 screws and the brush holder with one but then
don't have structural integrity.
anybody know how to use the lester system to seek out a terminal strip
more in tune with the denso alternator of the 87 suzuki samurai??
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
>At 01:01 PM 6/18/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: gert <gert.v@sbcglobal.net>
>>
>>It is my understanding that on some denso's one can swap the brush
>>holder for a diff model, so that one can use it with outside regulator,
>>any such info available on the one used on the Suzuki Sidekick???
>>
>>The prob I see right now with the suzuki alternator is that one of the
>>field brushes is fed and physically screwed to the B post. so it is
>>hard to remove the regulator and run the brushes out
>>
>>
>
> There is an article on the net that speaks to such a modification
> on a "presolite" that looks like an ND alternator (both are probably
> made by bosch!). See:
>
>http://www.miramarcollege.net/programs/avim/faculty/north/alternator/
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
--
is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "George Braly" <gwbraly@gami.com>
Im not sure - - but I suspect rather strongly that our built in (internal) regulator
for our Supplenator will also fit and work rather nicely on the larger 40amp
Denso.
I don't have one around handy to try it out, but just looking at it, it certainly
looks that way.
It is a regulator designed for aircraft use as a built in regulator - - with the
single point failure problems of automotive regulators eliminated.
Regards, George
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of gert
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: 40amp Denso Aerosport Alternator
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: gert <gert.v@sbcglobal.net>
Yes, I had seen that website before quite a while ago, that's what made
me start thinking.
well nothing ventured, nothing gained, I went to my local alternator
store and asked about the parts. got the spanish inquisition about what
model alternator(s) I was using. I finally got a word in edge wise and
said I could provide Lester numbers. Holy smokes, the red carpet was
rolled out. 2 seconds later I had the brush holder and terminal block.
the brush holder fits just great on my suzuki alternator, the terminal
block, although all the hole pitches are correct, the angle between the
terminal block mounting holes and the brush connection holes is sadly
wrong. I can make the brush and terminal an assembly, or, I can mount
the terminal block with 2 screws and the brush holder with one but then
don't have structural integrity.
anybody know how to use the lester system to seek out a terminal strip
more in tune with the denso alternator of the 87 suzuki samurai??
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
>
>At 01:01 PM 6/18/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: gert <gert.v@sbcglobal.net>
>>
>>It is my understanding that on some denso's one can swap the brush
>>holder for a diff model, so that one can use it with outside regulator,
>>any such info available on the one used on the Suzuki Sidekick???
>>
>>The prob I see right now with the suzuki alternator is that one of the
>>field brushes is fed and physically screwed to the B post. so it is
>>hard to remove the regulator and run the brushes out
>>
>>
>
> There is an article on the net that speaks to such a modification
> on a "presolite" that looks like an ND alternator (both are probably
> made by bosch!). See:
>
>http://www.miramarcollege.net/programs/avim/faculty/north/alternator/
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
--
is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500
---
---
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