---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/29/05: 39 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:01 AM - Re: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup (owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com) 2. 12:43 AM - Re: Decomissioning TIS Sites??? (Mickey Coggins) 3. 01:45 AM - Re: Help - low voltage (Denny Mortensen) 4. 04:36 AM - Re: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup (Tim Olson) 5. 05:27 AM - Re: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup (William) 6. 05:37 AM - Re: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup (Vern W.) 7. 06:04 AM - Re: wig wag suitability (John & Amy Eckel) 8. 06:30 AM - Re: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup (Tim Olson) 9. 06:34 AM - alternator problem (Jack Eckdahl) 10. 07:09 AM - Re: wig wag suitability (Eric M. Jones) 11. 07:13 AM - Re: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 12. 07:13 AM - Re: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup (Vern W.) 13. 07:20 AM - Re: alternator problem (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 14. 07:42 AM - Re: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 15. 08:44 AM - Re: alternator problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 16. 09:05 AM - Amps and volts for both Z-14 buses? (pfsiegel) 17. 09:31 AM - Re: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 18. 09:39 AM - Re: wig wag suitability (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 19. 09:54 AM - Re: Help - low voltage (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 20. 09:58 AM - Re: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 21. 10:05 AM - Re: alternator problem (Jack Eckdahl) 22. 10:43 AM - Z 12 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 23. 12:40 PM - Re: Re: alternator problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 01:18 PM - Re: Fadec installation, what architecture? (Aart van't Veld) 25. 01:40 PM - Re: Re: alternator problem (Jack Eckdahl) 26. 02:54 PM - Re: Re: alternator problem (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 27. 03:46 PM - Re: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup (Bryan Hooks) 28. 03:46 PM - Bob: Re: Re: alternator problem (Jack Eckdahl) 29. 05:04 PM - Re: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup (Bryan Hooks) 30. 05:24 PM - Re: 24v starter 14 volt system drawing (Mark & Lisa) 31. 06:35 PM - Re: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup (William) 32. 06:43 PM - Re: Amps and volts for both Z-14 buses? (Ken) 33. 07:13 PM - Re: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup (Dave Morris \) 34. 07:42 PM - Radio Shack Noise Filter 272-1085 (Walter Klatt) 35. 08:01 PM - Re: 24v starter 14 volt system drawing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 36. 08:02 PM - Re: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup (Tim Olson) 37. 08:17 PM - Re: 24v starter 14 volt system drawing (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 38. 08:29 PM - Re: Radio Shack Noise Filter 272-1085 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 39. 09:31 PM - MicroAir T2000 Transponder & ALT-4 .... (Tom...) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:01:05 AM PST US From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: May be a question which reveals my lack of experience but why would you want to leave on any of the sensitive electronic equipment prior to starting the engine. As a standard procedure, I turn on the radio temporarily to listen to the ATIS and then I turn it off. When starting the engine, the only electrical items on are the strobe lights. Once the engine starts I turn on the alternator, make sure it is feeding things, and then I turn on everything else. Given this scenario, I do not need a second battery as my RV8 (fuselage stage) with PMAGS is not electrically dependent to keep the engine running. So, by applying the KISS principle, I've done away with a second battery and even got rid of the SD8. I, like most of you, love goodies - gages, glass screens, complex electrical systems - it seems to add value to our system whereas in fact it only feeds or ego, it does not really add functionality given the mission profile. Deciding on equipment has been a struggle against myself, but the KISS angels are finally getting through. Michele Delsol RV8 - Fuselage > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner- > aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Hooks > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:12 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" > > > Tim Olson said "... Besides that, there isn't really > a custom Z-diagram that describes using a small alternate > battery for only a couple loads, so modifying Z-13/8 seems > the reasonable thing." > > I've been trying to decide how to handle this very issue myself. With a > GRT screen on (and EIS for engine monitoring)during start, I believe > that AT LEAST the GRT will reset itself due to voltage drop. Now I know > we should all require our gadget designers to meet the standards set > forth in DO-160 (I think that's the one), and maybe Grand Rapids does - > but I still feel the need to have them on a separate battery during > engine start if for no other reason than to baby them ($$$$). > > So, what's the simplest way to add a small secondary battery to the dual > alternator single battery schematic without all the fancy ($$$) stuff. > I just want to be able to use the secondary battery during start for a > couple of key loads and ensure that it is charged by the alternators > during flight. > > Bryan Hooks > RV-7A, slowbuild > Finish kit came today > Knoxville, TN > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:35 AM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Decomissioning TIS Sites??? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > It looks lke the powers that be don't think the TIS sites are worth > expanding much less keeping. Hope this isn't a sign of things to > come :-( > > http://www.pennavionics.com/TIS_ISSUES.html > Budget cuts from the feds have been "coming" for quite some time. It always sounds right when it's a "welfare queen" loosing her benefits, but when it's one of our pet services, it seems rather mean. I guess that tells us something about ourselves. What I really think is surprising is that we are all behind an archaic, expensive, slow, inefficient centralized traffic awareness system. The simplest system for airplanes to send and receive traffic info would be using a distributed system. There are a couple of examples out there: http://www.collisionavoidance.org/ http://www.flarm.ch/index_en.html The problem right now is that the feds are blocking the use of these systems, since they lose control if we just do it ourselves. Perhaps a positive side effect of the TIS budget cuts could be an opening for a more effective, inexpensive distributed traffic system. I can dream... -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 Canopy ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:45:38 AM PST US From: "Denny Mortensen" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Help - low voltage --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Denny Mortensen" Since I know very little to nothing about aircraft alternators this comment is really from the peanut gallery. However just curious this situation reminds me of what happens when you blow the diodes out of an alternator? Of course it has been years since I have seen this happen so my memory could be way off. Denny -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Help - low voltage --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" --> At 10:30 PM 6/23/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike & Lee Anne Wiebe" > > >Well folks, time to draw on the collective wisdom of the masses.again.. > >Sorry, the info is sketchy so far, but I just got home from the airport >and had to vent somewhere. We changed out the battery in our Sequoia >Falco, figuring that after three years, the weak starting must be some >good old fashioned battery aging. Initial start was very good, with >high charging amperage (Bob, further to your conversation with my dad >about the battery, I'll confirm that we read alternator amperage, not >battery amperage), about 25 amps. The new battery, an Oddessy P680, >was stolen from our new project, and was a little run down from various >bench activities, so this seems OK. It settled into a steady state >draw of about 6 amps, which has always seemed reasonable, given that we >have one side electronic ignition, and a full panel of EI electronic >instrumentation. After one enroute stop, we started for home near >dusk. > > >During operation with strobes, I noticed that the backlights on much of >the panel instrumentation was flickering. After a little >troubleshooting (I stress little - it was getting dark, and this was an >ELECTRICAL problem..so I landed quickly), I know the following: > >System voltage seemed to vary between 14 and about 11.5, based on load. >Worst culprit appeared to be strobes. Even running lights, and two big >landing lights didn't cause the same voltage drop as the strobes. So I >suspect I'll take the strobes out of the equation just to be sure. But >it seems funny to me that with the engine running strong that the >voltage would vary very much at all! Through all of this, the amperage >draw seemed normal for the given load being called for. Alternator is >obviously putting something out, but I wonder about consistency. At >one point I turned on a bunch of stuff quickly, just to create load, >and the engine monitor reset - something it will do when the starter >inrush current draws the system down. I would have thought that >turning on a bunch of lights quickly would not have caused that much of >an effect, though I've never tried to do that before. > >System is a B&C 60A alternator and the B&C/Knuckolls Voltage regulator. >All my measuring was done on panel instrumentation, which is an >Electronics International UBG-16 graphic engine monitor with amperage >option. Before shutting down, I advanced the RPM to test for headset >whine. There is a slight whine that changes with RPM, but its so very >subtle that it may have been there forever and me not notice it. > >So now I'm going to read my Aeroelectric Connection for more advice. >In the meantime, any knowledgeable opinions are appreciated. As is any >advice on how to isolate and troubleshoot the problem, since it seems >like Saturday is going to be a "fixing, not flying" day, once again. The first things you need to do is extend a field sensing wire into the cockpit. See Figure Z-23. If you have access to an ANALOG voltmeter (it can be an el-cheapo . . . accuracy doesn't count here), then use it to monitor field voltage. If not, a digital will do. Read through Note 8 of Appendix Z. There you will find a description of taking measurements and interpreting them to deduce whether it's an alternator or regulator problem. In other words, if voltage is low, is the alternator incapable of responding to commands from the regulator . . . or is the regulator giving bad commands. Generally speaking, if the field voltage goes UP in spite of low voltage then RPM is too low, belt is slipping or alternator is bad. If the alternator seems to be responding properly to commands it's being given, then you need to explore regulator and wiring issues. There's a powerful test tool you can fabricate from a locally acquired generic Ford regulator fitted with wires and terminals as shown in: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Ford_Test_Reg.jpg You can disconnect all ship's wiring but the b-lead and install this test regulator on the back of the alternator. Note, you have no control over this system . . . it comes on line as soon as you fire up the engine. But you can quickly see if the alternator voltage is correct and whether or not the alternator will support loads. If voltage is normal, increase RPM and turn on landing lights, pitot heat, nav lights, etc and watch the voltage. If the alternator works, then your problem lies with the ship's wiring and/or regulator. If the alternator doesn't support loads, it's time to take the alternator apart. If you want to test the alternator at full load, you can ADD a battery tester like this Harbor Freight load meter: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/HF91129_4.jpg Connect load meter across battery terminals. Leave as much of ship's loads OFF and while observing bus voltage during elevated RPM operation, carefully increase load tester to 40-60 amps (rating of alternator). You'll have to do this with some degree of care because the load tester is designed to do testing at MUCH larger currents . . . however, it provides a compact. convenient means for loading an alternator up to its rated output. If your alternator has a loadmeter, use this instrument to gage when then load-tester setting is right. The bus should be close to 14v at 100% load on the alternator. I've used this technique to trouble shoot many airplanes and mechanics were amazed that I could tell them EXACTLY what component needed changed before we removed a single component from the airplane. Most mechanics troubleshoot by putting known good components on until the problem goes away. It's much better to figure out ways to exercise regulators and alternators to their limits while still bolted to the airplane. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:36:36 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson But, if you read thru the post again, I don't have the option for P-Mags, so I have Lightspeed. There have been issues in the past with high-draw starters and lightspeed ignition and kickback. I also can happily leave my radios off during start, but I believe it would be nice to leave the EIS screen on....not 100% necessary, but given that I'd like to have the battery for the ignition anyway, it seems like a simple optional benefit. It still leaves open the question.... "If you have 10-12A of draw on a bus powered by a separate battery and an SD-8 alternator, will this cause problems, or will it just mean that your battery needs to fill in the remaining 2-4A?" Again, I don't have a long list of equipment to put on that battery. It's mainly to provide a separate source for the ignition, and maybe give the entire operation a little more endurance in an alternator out situation. Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage DO NOT ARCHIVE owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > > May be a question which reveals my lack of experience but why would you want > to leave on any of the sensitive electronic equipment prior to starting the > engine. As a standard procedure, I turn on the radio temporarily to listen > to the ATIS and then I turn it off. When starting the engine, the only > electrical items on are the strobe lights. Once the engine starts I turn on > the alternator, make sure it is feeding things, and then I turn on > everything else. Given this scenario, I do not need a second battery as my > RV8 (fuselage stage) with PMAGS is not electrically dependent to keep the > engine running. > > So, by applying the KISS principle, I've done away with a second battery and > even got rid of the SD8. > > I, like most of you, love goodies - gages, glass screens, complex electrical > systems - it seems to add value to our system whereas in fact it only feeds > or ego, it does not really add functionality given the mission profile. > Deciding on equipment has been a struggle against myself, but the KISS > angels are finally getting through. > > Michele Delsol > RV8 - Fuselage > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner- >>aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Hooks >>Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:12 AM >>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup >> >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" >> >> >>Tim Olson said "... Besides that, there isn't really >>a custom Z-diagram that describes using a small alternate >>battery for only a couple loads, so modifying Z-13/8 seems >>the reasonable thing." >> >>I've been trying to decide how to handle this very issue myself. With a >>GRT screen on (and EIS for engine monitoring)during start, I believe >>that AT LEAST the GRT will reset itself due to voltage drop. Now I know >>we should all require our gadget designers to meet the standards set >>forth in DO-160 (I think that's the one), and maybe Grand Rapids does - >>but I still feel the need to have them on a separate battery during >>engine start if for no other reason than to baby them ($$$$). >> >>So, what's the simplest way to add a small secondary battery to the dual >>alternator single battery schematic without all the fancy ($$$) stuff. >>I just want to be able to use the secondary battery during start for a >>couple of key loads and ensure that it is charged by the alternators >>during flight. >> >>Bryan Hooks >>RV-7A, slowbuild >>Finish kit came today >>Knoxville, TN >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:31 AM PST US From: "William" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William" A Shotky (sp?) diode from the main bus to the small isolated battery for the GRT will automatically charge the battery with no switch throwing (or forgetting). Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser # 4045 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > I also wondered if it was practical, since you're not cross-powering > anything from that small battery to your main bus if it would be > enough just to join the 2 battery circuits with just a switch > from the small battery to your main bus that you could turn on > after engine start just to keep the small battery charged. > Seems simple enough. Just want to hear any down sides. > > Tim > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > Current project: Fuselage > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > Bryan Hooks wrote: >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" >> >> >> Tim Olson said "... Besides that, there isn't really >> a custom Z-diagram that describes using a small alternate >> battery for only a couple loads, so modifying Z-13/8 seems >> the reasonable thing." >> >> I've been trying to decide how to handle this very issue myself. With a >> GRT screen on (and EIS for engine monitoring)during start, I believe >> that AT LEAST the GRT will reset itself due to voltage drop. Now I know >> we should all require our gadget designers to meet the standards set >> forth in DO-160 (I think that's the one), and maybe Grand Rapids does - >> but I still feel the need to have them on a separate battery during >> engine start if for no other reason than to baby them ($$$$). >> >> So, what's the simplest way to add a small secondary battery to the dual >> alternator single battery schematic without all the fancy ($$$) stuff. >> I just want to be able to use the secondary battery during start for a >> couple of key loads and ensure that it is charged by the alternators >> during flight. >> >> Bryan Hooks >> RV-7A, slowbuild >> Finish kit came today >> Knoxville, TN >> > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:50 AM PST US From: "Vern W." Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vern W." After fiddling with some of the same issues, I've decided (at Bob's suggestion) to simply roll the Z-30 design into the Z-13/8. Essentially, what you're doing is adding a (very) small second battery that will serve as an isolated source for power to the EI and EFIS during start up, and also serve as an "exciter" in order to power up the SD-8 in case the main battery breaks a terminal (or whatever). Simple, cheap, and adds loads of dependability to the system for those of us with more worries than we know what to do with :-) Vern ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Hooks" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" > > Tim Olson said "... Besides that, there isn't really > a custom Z-diagram that describes using a small alternate > battery for only a couple loads, so modifying Z-13/8 seems > the reasonable thing." > > I've been trying to decide how to handle this very issue myself. With a > GRT screen on (and EIS for engine monitoring)during start, I believe > that AT LEAST the GRT will reset itself due to voltage drop. Now I know > we should all require our gadget designers to meet the standards set > forth in DO-160 (I think that's the one), and maybe Grand Rapids does - > but I still feel the need to have them on a separate battery during > engine start if for no other reason than to baby them ($$$$). > > So, what's the simplest way to add a small secondary battery to the dual > alternator single battery schematic without all the fancy ($$$) stuff. > I just want to be able to use the secondary battery during start for a > couple of key loads and ensure that it is charged by the alternators > during flight. > > Bryan Hooks > RV-7A, slowbuild > Finish kit came today > Knoxville, TN > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:08 AM PST US From: "John & Amy Eckel" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: wig wag suitability --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John & Amy Eckel" I recently saw wig wag headlights on a motorcycle...Honda I believe. This might be a good source for a low cost wig wag setup. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "rv-9a-online" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: wig wag suitability > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rv-9a-online > > > Folks, a landing light saved my life. > > I was cruising at 3500 feet eastbound, and I notice a bright light dead > ahead. By the time I resolved the wings, I had to take evasive action-- > tight right bank, a look out the window at the other pilot.... who > didn't see me. > > The only thing right that he did was fly with his landing light on. > > For fast approaching traffic, the few seconds of extra warning is a life > saver. Fly with you lights on, pulselights, wig-wags, strobes, whatever. > > I alos bought a Monroy ATD-300 traffic monitor. Great device. > > Vern Little RV-9A > > LarryRobertHelming wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" >> >> >> >> >>>The wig wag will get the attention of aircraft whereas the strobes will >>>not. >>> >>> >> >>This maybe be true if you are going right at them and they are looking at >>you. If you are intersecting at an angle, the strobe has better chance of >>being seen. Better to have both lights and both ON. I do not use my >>landing lights normally unless I am inbound for a landing or pattern work. >> >>Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up It Flies >> >>"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers >> that it can bribe the public with the public's own money." >> >>Alexis de Toqueville >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "James H Nelson" >>To: >>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: wig wag suitability >> >> >> >> >>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: James H Nelson >>> >>>Erich, >>> When in a busy day time environment, the strobes are not seen. >>>The wig wag will get the attention of aircraft whereas the strobes will >>>not. >>> >>>Jim Nelson >>>RV9-A >>>St Petersburg Fl. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:31 AM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson Yes, your post was one of them that helped me decide what I wanted to do. Thanks Vern. Still need that answer to the question though.....if I'm running the SD-8, and happen to have loads over 8A, is this a problem, or does it just mean my battery will discharge to make up the difference? Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage DO NOT ARCHIVE Vern W. wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vern W." > > After fiddling with some of the same issues, I've decided (at Bob's > suggestion) to simply roll the Z-30 design into the Z-13/8. > Essentially, what you're doing is adding a (very) small second battery > that will serve as an isolated source for power to the EI and EFIS during > start up, and also serve as an "exciter" in order to power up the SD-8 in > case the main battery breaks a terminal (or whatever). > Simple, cheap, and adds loads of dependability to the system for those > of us with more worries than we know what to do with :-) > > Vern > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Hooks" > To: > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup > > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" > > > >>Tim Olson said "... Besides that, there isn't really >>a custom Z-diagram that describes using a small alternate >>battery for only a couple loads, so modifying Z-13/8 seems >>the reasonable thing." >> >>I've been trying to decide how to handle this very issue myself. With a >>GRT screen on (and EIS for engine monitoring)during start, I believe >>that AT LEAST the GRT will reset itself due to voltage drop. Now I know >>we should all require our gadget designers to meet the standards set >>forth in DO-160 (I think that's the one), and maybe Grand Rapids does - >>but I still feel the need to have them on a separate battery during >>engine start if for no other reason than to baby them ($$$$). >> >>So, what's the simplest way to add a small secondary battery to the dual >>alternator single battery schematic without all the fancy ($$$) stuff. >>I just want to be able to use the secondary battery during start for a >>couple of key loads and ensure that it is charged by the alternators >>during flight. >> >>Bryan Hooks >>RV-7A, slowbuild >>Finish kit came today >>Knoxville, TN >> >> > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:27 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: alternator problem From: "Jack Eckdahl" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Eckdahl" I fly a Vans RV9A with a 0-320 D1A lycoming engine. I have had no problems with my Vans purchased nippon 60amp internally regulated alternator untill yesterday. (30 hours on the engine and alt.) I turned on the master and noted that the voltage was at just under 12v. I started the engine with all avionics, switches, lights, etc. turned off as usual. After starting I noticed the voltage rising BEFORE switching on the alt. field. It sort of stabilized at around 14v+. When switching on the alt field the voltage quickly rose to 16v then to 16+++. I religiously watch the guages and this has never happened before. In the past the voltmeter would only show an increase AFTER switching on the alt field and then it would always register around 14v. I shut down, repeated, same result. Shut down and went home. What would cause this? thanks in advance. Jack ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:37 AM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: wig wag suitability --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" From my website: "During World War II, British Hudson bombers were outfitted with scores of forward facing bright lamps. A rear-facing photocell automatically adjusted the lamps to match the background skys brightness. This was deadly to German U-boats that could not see an approaching attack bomber until it was far too late! Steady (non-pulsed) lights during the daytime can actually make an approaching airplane invisible!" Locomotives use a single wig-wagging beam (or whatever it's called). I have always felt that single-headlamp airplanes would still do well with either a blinking lamp or a high-beam low-beam wig wag. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 Phone (508) 764-2072 Email: emjones@charter.net "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H. L. Mencken ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:18 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Your battery will make up the difference. Remember that the SD-8 output varies quite a bit with speed. One of the emergency procedures would be to run the engine at high RPM in the evnt your main alt goes south. Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson Yes, your post was one of them that helped me decide what I wanted to do. Thanks Vern. Still need that answer to the question though.....if I'm running the SD-8, and happen to have loads over 8A, is this a problem, or does it just mean my battery will discharge to make up the difference? Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:39 AM PST US From: "Vern W." Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vern W." All that's going to happen is that the battery will deplete at a rate dictated by the size of the load BEYOND the 8 amps put out by the SD-8. Using the SD-8, even if it won't equalize the load, will still add quite a bit of reserve time to the battery compared to the battery without the 8 amp charge going into it. A lot depends if you intend to finish the planned flight to final destination after a power failure, or if you just want time to sort things out and make an uneventful landing at a nearest airport. My suggestion is to pare down your "absolutely must have" list of equipment to a point where what remains is under the 8 amp output of the SD-8. If you really think through what you MUST have, I'd be willing to bet that 8 amps should cover it. Vern ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > Yes, your post was one of them that helped me decide what > I wanted to do. Thanks Vern. > > Still need that answer to the question though.....if I'm > running the SD-8, and happen to have loads over 8A, is > this a problem, or does it just mean my battery will > discharge to make up the difference? > > Tim > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > Current project: Fuselage > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > Vern W. wrote: > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vern W." > > > > After fiddling with some of the same issues, I've decided (at Bob's > > suggestion) to simply roll the Z-30 design into the Z-13/8. > > Essentially, what you're doing is adding a (very) small second battery > > that will serve as an isolated source for power to the EI and EFIS during > > start up, and also serve as an "exciter" in order to power up the SD-8 in > > case the main battery breaks a terminal (or whatever). > > Simple, cheap, and adds loads of dependability to the system for those > > of us with more worries than we know what to do with :-) > > > > Vern > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bryan Hooks" > > To: > > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup > > > > > > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" > > > > > > > >>Tim Olson said "... Besides that, there isn't really > >>a custom Z-diagram that describes using a small alternate > >>battery for only a couple loads, so modifying Z-13/8 seems > >>the reasonable thing." > >> > >>I've been trying to decide how to handle this very issue myself. With a > >>GRT screen on (and EIS for engine monitoring)during start, I believe > >>that AT LEAST the GRT will reset itself due to voltage drop. Now I know > >>we should all require our gadget designers to meet the standards set > >>forth in DO-160 (I think that's the one), and maybe Grand Rapids does - > >>but I still feel the need to have them on a separate battery during > >>engine start if for no other reason than to baby them ($$$$). > >> > >>So, what's the simplest way to add a small secondary battery to the dual > >>alternator single battery schematic without all the fancy ($$$) stuff. > >>I just want to be able to use the secondary battery during start for a > >>couple of key loads and ensure that it is charged by the alternators > >>during flight. > >> > >>Bryan Hooks > >>RV-7A, slowbuild > >>Finish kit came today > >>Knoxville, TN > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:59 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: alternator problem From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" The alternator caused it...:) 16V+ can only come from one place...Will Van's exchange it? Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack Eckdahl Subject: AeroElectric-List: alternator problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Eckdahl" --> I fly a Vans RV9A with a 0-320 D1A lycoming engine. I have had no problems with my Vans purchased nippon 60amp internally regulated alternator untill yesterday. (30 hours on the engine and alt.) I turned on the master and noted that the voltage ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:15 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Depends...In most cases I would agree Vern. In my case the Lycoming does not have a mechanical pump (electric pump in each wing root to avoid vapour lock when using auofuel). I was quite relieved to see only a 4.5 amp draw worst case for each pump...Add to that "Something to navigate with IFR" and I'm probably right at 8amps. Of course this assumes my alt will fail during IFR but there is nothing wrong with finding a hotel until the weather gets VFR again...Probably find a local Autozone while I'm there...:) Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Vern W. Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vern W." All that's going to happen is that the battery will deplete at a rate dictated by the size of the load BEYOND the 8 amps put out by the SD-8. Using the SD-8, even if it won't equalize the load, will still add quite a bit of reserve time to the battery compared to the battery without the 8 amp charge going into it. A lot depends if you intend to finish the planned flight to final destination after a power failure, or if you just want time to sort things out and make an uneventful landing at a nearest airport. My suggestion is to pare down your "absolutely must have" list of equipment to a point where what remains is under the 8 amp output of the SD-8. If you really think through what you MUST have, I'd be willing to bet that 8 amps should cover it. Vern ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:48 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: alternator problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:36 AM 6/29/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Eckdahl" > >I fly a Vans RV9A with a 0-320 D1A lycoming engine. I have had no >problems with my Vans purchased nippon 60amp internally regulated >alternator untill yesterday. (30 hours on the engine and alt.) I turned >on the master and noted that the voltage was at just under 12v. I >started the engine with all avionics, switches, lights, etc. turned off >as usual. After starting I noticed the voltage rising BEFORE switching >on the alt. field. It sort of stabilized at around 14v+. When >switching on the alt field the voltage quickly rose to 16v then to >16+++. I religiously watch the guages and this has never happened >before. In the past the voltmeter would only show an increase AFTER >switching on the alt field and then it would always register around 14v. >I shut down, repeated, same result. Shut down and went home. What >would cause this? thanks in advance. Jack The voltage rises this high for one reason only . . . regulation of alternator output is badly misadjusted or totally non-existent. It would be interesting to get a detailed failure analysis of this machine. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:12 AM PST US From: pfsiegel Subject: AeroElectric-List: Amps and volts for both Z-14 buses? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: pfsiegel For my Z-14 Dual Battery, Dual Alternator, Split Bus system I would like to keep track of the voltage and amps for EACH of the two separate and independent buses. I will use the ACS-2002 electronic engine monitoring system. What would be the best way to monitor the two systems? Should I have a "monitor select switch" that selects which bus the ACS is looking at? Or??? I sure appreciate all the good input from this list! Paul Siegel ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:21 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:12 AM 6/29/2005 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > >Your battery will make up the difference. Remember that the SD-8 output >varies quite a bit with speed. One of the emergency procedures would be >to run the engine at high RPM in the evnt your main alt goes south. > >Frank This points out the advantage of having an altenrator load-meter and voltmeter in on the panel. The SD-8 at faster rpms will put out more than 8A when loaded to the point where the battery begins to delivery significant energy. The SD-8 output ratings are understandably cited for BATTERY CHARGING modes of 13.8 or more volts output. The output power chart says . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/SD-8_Output.pdf . . . we can expect it to meet the 8A rating if shaft rpm is kept at 3500 or above. I've forgotten the drive pad gear ratios for the common engines but I think you can depend on 8A of CHARGE LEVEL output at 2400 rpm in cruise. As you INCREASE load, the available output will go up. We know that a battery doesn't begin to deliver energy until some value just under 12.5 volts. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/1217_3n8_Discharge.pdf Here we see that a 17 a.h. battery delivers 3 amps of output for better than 7 hours before the voltage drops below 11 volts. What's the SD-8's output at 11 volts? Don't know. But I suspect it's greater than 10A. Assuming the REGULATOR is sufficiently heat-sinked and cooled to carry this current level, then one could comfortably expect an SD-8/17 a.h. combo to supply 13+ amps for about 7 hours. The same battery delivered 8A for 2+ hours. This suggests that the same battery/alternator combo is good for 18+ amps for something on the order of 2 hours. Running at higher RPM would improve these figures slightly. Again, if you KNOW what your endurance loads are going to be and you have a loadmeter on the alternator, you can easily deduce what engine rpm produces what output during endurance-mode operations. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:45 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: wig wag suitability --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 09:01 AM 6/29/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John & Amy Eckel" > > >I recently saw wig wag headlights on a motorcycle...Honda I believe. >This might be a good source for a low cost wig wag setup. See http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Lighting/WigWag.pdf Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:00 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Help - low voltage --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:41 AM 6/29/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Denny Mortensen" > > >Since I know very little to nothing about aircraft alternators this >comment is really from the peanut gallery. However just curious this >situation reminds me of what happens when you blow the diodes out of an >alternator? Of course it has been years since I have seen this happen so >my memory could be way off. Diodes seldom "blow" anymore . . . There is risk that a lead wire will crack causing the diode to go open . . . but I've not seen a shorted diode in many years. A diode shorting will cripple the alternator. Available output will go down significantly and large fault currents will flow internally to the alternator . . . but many an alternator continued to function in the crippled state if there was enough cooling. An open diode also cripples the alternator without making anything get hot. A 40A machine drops to something just over a 20A machine. Drove a car for several years with this condition that didn't surface until I fixed the air-conditioner and suddenly demanded more of the alternator than it could deliver. About 10 years ago I worked a twin-Cessna accident where BOTH alternators failed with shorted stator windings (overhaul shop left slot liners out of the stator stack). Poor bastard managed to find the end of the runway with the windshield iced over but lost the airplane trying to land by visual clues he could see out the fowl weather window. He was 30 seconds short of 'home safe' when the airplane departed the runway and rolled up in a ball. Top 3 alternator problems today would have to be broken mounting hardware, poor installation/maintenance practice, and the occasional failed regulator. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:17 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" So changing the battery every year or so and having an SD-8 back up should give me a comfortable (dead alternator in IMC does not sound comfortable...:)..) 2 hours to get it wherever I'm going......Yes I like it. I would like the Dynon engine monitor to have two amp meters (one on each alt) for this very reason...Guess I could use two shunts and a changeover switch...or is this cross connecting the two systems in a way that one shouldn't? Frank P.s Accesory pad runs at 1.3 to 1 on the IO 360...Thus 3500RPM is 2692 engine RPM...So with prop restriction of below 2600 in cruise will only see 3380RPM at the SD-8. This points out the advantage of having an altenrator load-meter and voltmeter in on the panel. The SD-8 at faster rpms will put out more than 8A when loaded to the point where the battery begins to delivery significant energy. The SD-8 output ratings are understandably cited for BATTERY CHARGING modes of 13.8 or more volts output. The output power chart says . . . http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/SD-8_Output.pdf . . . we can expect it to meet the 8A rating if shaft rpm is kept at 3500 or above. I've forgotten the drive pad gear ratios for the common engines but I think you can depend on 8A of CHARGE LEVEL output at 2400 rpm in cruise. As you INCREASE load, the available output will go up. We know that a battery doesn't begin to deliver energy until some value just under 12.5 volts. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/1217_3n8_Discharge.pdf Here we see that a 17 a.h. battery delivers 3 amps of output for better than 7 hours before the voltage drops below 11 volts. What's the SD-8's output at 11 volts? Don't know. But I suspect it's greater than 10A. Assuming the REGULATOR is sufficiently heat-sinked and cooled to carry this current level, then one could comfortably expect an SD-8/17 a.h. combo to supply 13+ amps for about 7 hours. The same battery delivered 8A for 2+ hours. This suggests that the same battery/alternator combo is good for 18+ amps for something on the order of 2 hours. Running at higher RPM would improve these figures slightly. Again, if you KNOW what your endurance loads are going to be and you have a loadmeter on the alternator, you can easily deduce what engine rpm produces what output during endurance-mode operations. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:43 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: alternator problem From: "Jack Eckdahl" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Eckdahl" Bob: I expect that the alternator will be replaced by Vans. Concerning interest in a detailed analysis of this unit; how would one go about getting it analyzed? Also: I am curious how the voltage regulator could show an increase (to 14v+) with engine start-up without ever switching on the alternator field switch?? ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:07 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z 12 From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Question for Bob, As I get closer to thinking about my all electric airplane, single batt, dual Alt system I was curious why you show the standby alt feeding downstream of the battery contactor. If the main alt died the contactor would need to remain energised in order to charge (or load balance) the battery. I note the alt you show is a fairly beefy 20A unit. In a smaller SD-8 setup I wonder if it would be better to connect the SD-8 directly to the battery buss (via a fuse and switch). That way if the main alt died (or major short) one could drop out the battery contactor and separate out the essential loads as they would all be on the battery buss. This would also allow one to make choices between avionics depending on weather vs endurance time required etc. What do you think?....I am assuming in my position that one would not normally switch the SD-8 off...Unless it shorted out or something, but with just 8 amps one does not need a contactor. Frank ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:52 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: alternator problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:07 PM 6/29/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Eckdahl" > >Bob: I expect that the alternator will be replaced by Vans. Concerning >interest in a detailed analysis of this unit; how would one go about >getting it analyzed? Not easy. Van's isn't going to do it. Van's supplier will simply put it back into the overhaul stream. The analysis would have to be done by a teardown inspection by someone really interested in knowing the failure mode. >Also: I am curious how the voltage regulator could show an increase (to >14v+) with engine start-up without ever switching on the alternator >field switch?? Oops. I missed that. After re-reading your original post, I'm wondering if there's a wiring/functionality issue. Sounds like the alternator was coming on line without being told to . . . and adding the + input command was irritating the system into an ov condition. Have you pulled the alternator off the airplane already? If not, repeat the experiment but see how the bus voltage behaves with the alternator control switch left OFF and various loads like landing lights, etc. are added to the system. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:15 PM PST US From: "Aart van't Veld" "'Harke Smits'" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Fadec installation, what architecture? 2.31 DATE_IN_FUTURE_24_48 Date: is 24 to 48 hours after Received: date --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Aart van't Veld" Bob, Thanks for your help. I am looking forward to your "shooting". Take your time in loading the guns! I have been doing a lot of head scratching again on this subject for the past days. Please think along with me here: The basic problem once again: All electric airplane, VFR only but I do want some peace of mind redundancy. Using the Fadec small aux battery in combination with a SD8 alternator that powers the aux/ebus only, could mean using the following architectures: Z14, split bus, Fadec version: Use a SD8 instead of the SD20. Fadec #1 bus wired to the main power distribution bus and Fadec #2 bus wired to the alternate bus. This setup should be OK. When the main alternator goes down, one flips the cross-feed switch and the aux dc pwr master switch and the aux bus receives power from the main bat and aux bat and SD8. Enough energy to last for at least two hours. I could even shut down the main bat contactor to save main battery energy for final part of the flight. Drawback: complex installation...... Z13/20 but using the SD8 instead to get a 8-Amp E-bus/Fadec #2 bus: Simpler installation than the Z14. I would have to add the aux Fadec battery but be rid of the Z14 cross feed contactor and switch. Z12: Perhaps the best solution after all? I would get rid of the SD8 and Fadec aux battery and use the (indeed more expensive and perhaps a little heavier) SD20 instead but it would give me all redundancy that I would want and enough electronic juice to power almost the complete system in VFR mode. Well, I hope that my reasoning does make some sense. I am more than ready to be "shot" with some of your professional advice! Perhaps some Fadec fliers/builders who have already gone along this road can chime in too.......? Aart I'm working on a response to this . . . but it's going to take some time. You raise some good questions for which I don't want to hip-shoot an answer. Bob . . . I would really appreciate feedback from you guys on the wiring/architecture of my Fadec system. The basics of my installation and wiring situation are: - All electric airplane - Flying an experimental in Europe. Therefore no IFR/IMC, no night VFR. - 60A B&C main alternator - One main battery(Odyssey PC680) - One small backup battery, comes with the Fadec installation and is dedicated to power the backup Fadec #2 bus only (Aerosance states that it is more than enough for one hour of powering the Fadec system. The Fadec system draws 5,5 amps) - One SD8 backup alternator The Fadec system has two ECU's / busses for full redundancy. I will have the Fadec #1 bus powered by the main power distribution bus and the Fadec #2 bus powered by the Ebus. The basic installation that I have in mind now is using the straightforward Z11 diagram, but adding a backup system that will only power the Ebus (and back up Fadec #2 bus). This backup system will off course have the Fadec battery but I would also like to add a SD8 alternator. The Aerosance wiring diagram http://www.fadec.com/pdfs/WD12556G.PDF shows this backup alternator/backup battery concept too. They complete this backup system by adding a battery contactor and an alt/bat switch. Does this all make sense to you or am I overdoing the redundancy issue here and by adding the SD8 making the system more complex than necessary? Is there another architecture that is better suited for my profile? Thanks for your input, Aart van't Veld http://websites.expercraft.com/PHVII ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:40:42 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: alternator problem From: "Jack Eckdahl" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Eckdahl" Thanks Bob: I haven't pulled the alternator yet. I will try your suggested experiment. I hate to use up too much of this groups time and space with this thread, but when I add loads with the switch off, I'm not sure what I'll be looking for (or then what to do about it) . I can note the Voltage response and post the results for comments if that's OK? Just so you know, re: the alternator coming online without being told to do so; just started. If it's a wiring issue, seems like it would have done this since the first start-up 30 hrs ago?. Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: alternator problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" --> At 01:07 PM 6/29/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Eckdahl" >--> > >Bob: I expect that the alternator will be replaced by Vans. >Concerning interest in a detailed analysis of this unit; how would one >go about getting it analyzed? Not easy. Van's isn't going to do it. Van's supplier will simply put it back into the overhaul stream. The analysis would have to be done by a teardown inspection by someone really interested in knowing the failure mode. >Also: I am curious how the voltage regulator could show an increase >(to >14v+) with engine start-up without ever switching on the alternator >field switch?? Oops. I missed that. After re-reading your original post, I'm wondering if there's a wiring/functionality issue. Sounds like the alternator was coming on line without being told to . . . and adding the + input command was irritating the system into an ov condition. Have you pulled the alternator off the airplane already? If not, repeat the experiment but see how the bus voltage behaves with the alternator control switch left OFF and various loads like landing lights, etc. are added to the system. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:02 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: alternator problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 04:42 PM 6/29/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Eckdahl" > >Thanks Bob: I haven't pulled the alternator yet. I will try your >suggested experiment. I hate to use up too much of this groups time and >space with this thread, but when I add loads with the switch off, I'm >not sure what I'll be looking for (or then what to do about it) . It's far better that we used $time$ on this list to identify, understand and fix problems with hardware than to discuss the value of flaps during gusty conditions or (gasp . . . get into arguments/discussions on physics of the downwind turn). Please feel free to discuss it right here so that all who are interested may benefit from what we discover. > I can >note the Voltage response and post the results for comments if that's >OK? Just so you know, re: the alternator coming online without being >told to do so; just started. Okay, you're already of the opinion that the alternator is coming on line without being commanded to do so and 'appears' to operate normally until you actually do close the alternator ON switch whereupon it goes into an overvoltage condition. > If it's a wiring issue, seems like it >would have done this since the first start-up 30 hrs ago?. Good point. It would be VERY interesting to see a schematic of the regulator to see if a failure mode commensurate with your observations can be deduced. Perhaps we don't need to repeat the experiment if you can tell us that except for un-commanded operation, the alternator appears to otherwise operate normally. What part of the country do you live in? I think I'd pop for UPS shipping both ways to get my hands on that alternator for non-invasive inspection on an alternator test stand. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:56 PM PST US From: "Bryan Hooks" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" Guess everyone has their own design goals. You seem to be happy with yours. I want to keep an EFIS screen and an EIS screen on during start without upsetting the electrons. The EIS for monitoring the engine (oil psi,etc)during start, and the EFIS 'cause I don't want to turn it on for flight planning (etc) only to have to cycle the power off and back on for the engine start. I am simply trying to figure out the most effective way to do this. -bryan rv7a -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: May be a question which reveals my lack of experience but why would you want to leave on any of the sensitive electronic equipment prior to starting the engine. As a standard procedure, I turn on the radio temporarily to listen to the ATIS and then I turn it off. When starting the engine, the only electrical items on are the strobe lights. Once the engine starts I turn on the alternator, make sure it is feeding things, and then I turn on everything else. Given this scenario, I do not need a second battery as my RV8 (fuselage stage) with PMAGS is not electrically dependent to keep the engine running. So, by applying the KISS principle, I've done away with a second battery and even got rid of the SD8. I, like most of you, love goodies - gages, glass screens, complex electrical systems - it seems to add value to our system whereas in fact it only feeds or ego, it does not really add functionality given the mission profile. Deciding on equipment has been a struggle against myself, but the KISS angels are finally getting through. Michele Delsol RV8 - Fuselage > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner- > aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Hooks > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:12 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" > > > Tim Olson said "... Besides that, there isn't really > a custom Z-diagram that describes using a small alternate > battery for only a couple loads, so modifying Z-13/8 seems > the reasonable thing." > > I've been trying to decide how to handle this very issue myself. With a > GRT screen on (and EIS for engine monitoring)during start, I believe > that AT LEAST the GRT will reset itself due to voltage drop. Now I know > we should all require our gadget designers to meet the standards set > forth in DO-160 (I think that's the one), and maybe Grand Rapids does - > but I still feel the need to have them on a separate battery during > engine start if for no other reason than to baby them ($$$$). > > So, what's the simplest way to add a small secondary battery to the dual > alternator single battery schematic without all the fancy ($$$) stuff. > I just want to be able to use the secondary battery during start for a > couple of key loads and ensure that it is charged by the alternators > during flight. > > Bryan Hooks > RV-7A, slowbuild > Finish kit came today > Knoxville, TN > > > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:57 PM PST US Subject: Bob: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: alternator problem From: "Jack Eckdahl" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Eckdahl" Bob: I ran the test as you suggested. I have a minor (maybe major) correction. I started the engine normally with the master on. I did not switch on the alternator. Voltage began to rise to around 14v, but then kept going up. It did not stop at 14v as I reported earlier. Maybe I didn't wait long enough last time to observe this. I switched on the nav lights and voltage slowly went back down to around 14v, needle stopped and then started going back up again. I added the landing light, same thing happened. I then added the strobe lights and it went back down to around 13v and then more quickly went all the way up to 16+++. I then shut down. I didn't want to add any more load, especially avionics. I'll send you the alternator for the bench test if you are still interested. In the interest of education, I'll split the shipping with you. Does the behavior described change you thoughts. I've been told by others that it's the internal regulator failure. And that replacing it is simple. I continue to be puzzled why the thing by-passes the alt switch? In the past all I had to do was turn off the switch and the voltage would return to battery voltage around 12+v. I'll be traveling the next few days (by auto) so I won't be able to ship it untill around July 5. thanks, Jack -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Cc:=09 Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: RE: alternator problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 04:42 PM 6/29/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jack Eckdahl" > >Thanks Bob: I haven't pulled the alternator yet. I will try your >suggested experiment. I hate to use up too much of this groups time and >space with this thread, but when I add loads with the switch off, I'm >not sure what I'll be looking for (or then what to do about it) . It's far better that we used $time$ on this list to identify, understand and fix problems with hardware than to discuss the value of flaps during gusty conditions or (gasp . . . get into arguments/discussions on physics of the downwind turn). Please feel free to discuss it right here so that all who are interested may benefit from what we discover. > I can >note the Voltage response and post the results for comments if that's >OK? Just so you know, re: the alternator coming online without being >told to do so; just started. Okay, you're already of the opinion that the alternator is coming on line without being commanded to do so and 'appears' to operate normally until you actually do close the alternator ON switch whereupon it goes into an overvoltage condition. > If it's a wiring issue, seems like it >would have done this since the first start-up 30 hrs ago?. Good point. It would be VERY interesting to see a schematic of the regulator to see if a failure mode commensurate with your observations can be deduced. Perhaps we don't need to repeat the experiment if you can tell us that except for un-commanded operation, the alternator appears to otherwise operate normally. What part of the country do you live in? I think I'd pop for UPS shipping both ways to get my hands on that alternator for non-invasive inspection on an alternator test stand. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:41 PM PST US From: "Bryan Hooks" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" OK, this one's new to me. What is a Shotky diode, where do I get it, and how do I size it? Sounds like it might just fit the bill for what I want. Thanks, Bryan RV7A -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William" A Shotky (sp?) diode from the main bus to the small isolated battery for the GRT will automatically charge the battery with no switch throwing (or forgetting). Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser # 4045 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Olson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson > > I also wondered if it was practical, since you're not cross-powering > anything from that small battery to your main bus if it would be > enough just to join the 2 battery circuits with just a switch > from the small battery to your main bus that you could turn on > after engine start just to keep the small battery charged. > Seems simple enough. Just want to hear any down sides. > > Tim > > Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 > Current project: Fuselage > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > Bryan Hooks wrote: >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" >> >> >> Tim Olson said "... Besides that, there isn't really >> a custom Z-diagram that describes using a small alternate >> battery for only a couple loads, so modifying Z-13/8 seems >> the reasonable thing." >> >> I've been trying to decide how to handle this very issue myself. With a >> GRT screen on (and EIS for engine monitoring)during start, I believe >> that AT LEAST the GRT will reset itself due to voltage drop. Now I know >> we should all require our gadget designers to meet the standards set >> forth in DO-160 (I think that's the one), and maybe Grand Rapids does - >> but I still feel the need to have them on a separate battery during >> engine start if for no other reason than to baby them ($$$$). >> >> So, what's the simplest way to add a small secondary battery to the dual >> alternator single battery schematic without all the fancy ($$$) stuff. >> I just want to be able to use the secondary battery during start for a >> couple of key loads and ensure that it is charged by the alternators >> during flight. >> >> Bryan Hooks >> RV-7A, slowbuild >> Finish kit came today >> Knoxville, TN >> > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:01 PM PST US From: "Mark & Lisa" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 24v starter 14 volt system drawing --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark & Lisa" Bob, On your "24V Starter 14V System" schematic I note that the AUX BATT (B2)incorporates an ANL 200 in the "fat wire" lead off the + side. My assumption is that this limiter protects the rest of the starter circuit should B2 suffer an internal short. The MAIN BATT (B1) incorporates an ANL 200 on the lead that connects K1 to K4. Should that also be between the B1 and K1 to protect the rest of the system? If I follow this schematic properly, should B2 short inflight, the ANL 200 on the + lead will blow removing B2 from the system--I still have access to B1. If B1 shorts, what protects the rest of the system? Control power for AUX BAT and PUSH TO START switches comes from the Main Bus. Where does control power for DC PWR MASTER switch originate? Does this switch simply close the circuit coming down the right side of K1 to ground, thereby closing the contactor? If so, how much current does this switch have to handle? Sorry for the ignorance; all this 'lectron stuff is completely new to me... But I'm learing fast! Thanks again for the help. Mark & Lisa Sletten Legacy FG N828LM http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:33 PM PST US From: "William" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William" Go to Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com He sells them and they are very convenient to install. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser # 4045 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Hooks" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" > > > OK, this one's new to me. What is a Shotky diode, where do I get it, > and how do I size it? Sounds like it might just fit the bill for what I > want. > > Thanks, > Bryan > RV7A > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > William > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William" > > > A Shotky (sp?) diode from the main bus to the small isolated battery for > the > GRT will automatically charge the battery with no switch throwing (or > forgetting). > Bill Schertz > KIS Cruiser # 4045 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tim Olson" > To: > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup > > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson >> >> I also wondered if it was practical, since you're not cross-powering >> anything from that small battery to your main bus if it would be >> enough just to join the 2 battery circuits with just a switch >> from the small battery to your main bus that you could turn on >> after engine start just to keep the small battery charged. >> Seems simple enough. Just want to hear any down sides. >> >> Tim >> >> Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 >> Current project: Fuselage >> >> DO NOT ARCHIVE >> >> >> Bryan Hooks wrote: >>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" >>> >>> >>> Tim Olson said "... Besides that, there isn't really >>> a custom Z-diagram that describes using a small alternate >>> battery for only a couple loads, so modifying Z-13/8 seems >>> the reasonable thing." >>> >>> I've been trying to decide how to handle this very issue myself. > With a >>> GRT screen on (and EIS for engine monitoring)during start, I believe >>> that AT LEAST the GRT will reset itself due to voltage drop. Now I > know >>> we should all require our gadget designers to meet the standards set >>> forth in DO-160 (I think that's the one), and maybe Grand Rapids does > - >>> but I still feel the need to have them on a separate battery during >>> engine start if for no other reason than to baby them ($$$$). >>> >>> So, what's the simplest way to add a small secondary battery to the > dual >>> alternator single battery schematic without all the fancy ($$$) > stuff. >>> I just want to be able to use the secondary battery during start for > a >>> couple of key loads and ensure that it is charged by the alternators >>> during flight. >>> >>> Bryan Hooks >>> RV-7A, slowbuild >>> Finish kit came today >>> Knoxville, TN >>> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:44 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Amps and volts for both Z-14 buses? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Hi Paul I have a Z-14 with a EIS monitor. At the moment the second battery voltage is sensed by one of the auxilary inputs. The main battery powers the EIS which I deem fine for my purposes with a Z14. I haven't discussed this with Grand Rapids but generally one does not want voltage on a solid state input unless the device (EIS) is powered. So my second battery voltage is sensed after a switch that is always off with the engine off and always on with the engine on except for abnormal situations. I think I will change this so that whenever the EIS is powered, a miniature reed relay closes which connects the aux battery voltage sense wire to the EIS input. That eliminates any confusion about what is happening in an abnormal situation. Since my unit can't handle more than 5 volts input I have two resistors that make a voltage divider such that the EIS input is fed 1/4 of the actual voltage. Your monitor select switch should work but then you won't get an over/undervoltage warning on the system that is not selected. If I used such an approach with my system I would simply select which system powered the monitor. The EIS simply monitors and displays the supply voltage and that is sufficient for that approach on an EIS. I am not familiar with your ACS-2002. For current, some guys just run both current wires through the same hall effect sensor and measure the total current flowing. Otherwise you would normally need two current sensors and two monitor inputs to get both currents. I elected to only monitor the current from the main alternator. I think it is also reasonable to not measure the current and only look at voltage. Ken pfsiegel wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: pfsiegel > >For my Z-14 Dual Battery, Dual Alternator, Split Bus system I would like >to keep track of the voltage and amps for EACH of the two separate and >independent buses. > >I will use the ACS-2002 electronic engine monitoring system. > >What would be the best way to monitor the two systems? > >Should I have a "monitor select switch" that selects which bus the ACS >is looking at? > >Or??? > >I sure appreciate all the good input from this list! > >Paul Siegel > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:16 PM PST US From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" I know this is probably overkill just to keep an EFIS running during engine cranking, but it's an interesting concept that is taking hold in the "Car PC" world, and thus of interest to anybody putting computers in their airplanes. If it's a PC, then this device will even decide that the low voltage condition is going to be long-lasting and will punch the Power button on your PC to start the hibernation process. http://www.carnetix.com/CNXP1260.html Dave Morris At 05:46 PM 6/29/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" > > >Guess everyone has their own design goals. You seem to be happy with >yours. I want to keep an EFIS screen and an EIS screen on during start >without upsetting the electrons. The EIS for monitoring the engine (oil >psi,etc)during start, and the EFIS 'cause I don't want to turn it on for >flight planning (etc) only to have to cycle the power off and back on >for the engine start. I am simply trying to figure out the most >effective way to do this. > >-bryan >rv7a > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > >May be a question which reveals my lack of experience but why would you >want >to leave on any of the sensitive electronic equipment prior to starting >the >engine. As a standard procedure, I turn on the radio temporarily to >listen >to the ATIS and then I turn it off. When starting the engine, the only >electrical items on are the strobe lights. Once the engine starts I turn >on >the alternator, make sure it is feeding things, and then I turn on >everything else. Given this scenario, I do not need a second battery as >my >RV8 (fuselage stage) with PMAGS is not electrically dependent to keep >the >engine running. > >So, by applying the KISS principle, I've done away with a second battery >and >even got rid of the SD8. > >I, like most of you, love goodies - gages, glass screens, complex >electrical >systems - it seems to add value to our system whereas in fact it only >feeds >or ego, it does not really add functionality given the mission profile. >Deciding on equipment has been a struggle against myself, but the KISS >angels are finally getting through. > >Michele Delsol >RV8 - Fuselage > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner- > > aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Hooks > > Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:12 AM > > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" > > > > > > Tim Olson said "... Besides that, there isn't really > > a custom Z-diagram that describes using a small alternate > > battery for only a couple loads, so modifying Z-13/8 seems > > the reasonable thing." > > > > I've been trying to decide how to handle this very issue myself. With >a > > GRT screen on (and EIS for engine monitoring)during start, I believe > > that AT LEAST the GRT will reset itself due to voltage drop. Now I >know > > we should all require our gadget designers to meet the standards set > > forth in DO-160 (I think that's the one), and maybe Grand Rapids does >- > > but I still feel the need to have them on a separate battery during > > engine start if for no other reason than to baby them ($$$$). > > > > So, what's the simplest way to add a small secondary battery to the >dual > > alternator single battery schematic without all the fancy ($$$) stuff. > > I just want to be able to use the secondary battery during start for a > > couple of key loads and ensure that it is charged by the alternators > > during flight. > > > > Bryan Hooks > > RV-7A, slowbuild > > Finish kit came today > > Knoxville, TN > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:52 PM PST US From: Walter Klatt Subject: AeroElectric-List: Radio Shack Noise Filter 272-1085 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Walter Klatt Does anyone have one of these collecting dust somewhere? Radio Shack used to carry this 40 amp, 0.5 mfd at 50 vdc noise filter, part #272-1085, but apparently discontinued it in year 2000. I had one on my plane connected inline to my alternator output, and worked fine for several years. However, it then vibrated apart, and I replaced it with several others, but none are able to do the job like that old Radio Shack one. So, if anyone has one, and is willing to part with it, or can tell me where I could find one, please let me know. Thanks. Walter Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:30 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 24v starter 14 volt system drawing --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:23 PM 6/29/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark & Lisa" > >Bob, > >On your "24V Starter 14V System" schematic I note that the AUX BATT >(B2)incorporates an ANL 200 in the "fat wire" lead off the + side. My >assumption is that this limiter protects the rest of the starter circuit >should B2 suffer an internal short. The MAIN BATT (B1) incorporates an ANL >200 on the lead that connects K1 to K4. Should that also be between the B1 >and K1 to protect the rest of the system? > >If I follow this schematic properly, should B2 short inflight, the ANL 200 >on the + lead will blow removing B2 from the system--I still have access to >B1. If B1 shorts, what protects the rest of the system? The limiters are there ONLY to protect the system in case one of the contactors sticks or some wiring anomaly causes more than two contactors to be closed at one time. This has the potential for placing BIG loads on one of the batteries. >Control power for AUX BAT and PUSH TO START switches comes from the Main >Bus. Yes, from the START circuit fuse/breaker . . . >Where does control power for DC PWR MASTER switch originate? Does >this switch simply close the circuit coming down the right side of K1 to >ground, thereby closing the contactor? You got it. K1 is a conventional ground to operate battery contactor like those illustrated in all of the z-figures. The K2/5, K3/4 pairs are operated as pull up to +12 so that they can share the STARTER fuse and be assured exclusive operation by the position of S1. > If so, how much current does this >switch have to handle? Less than 1A >Sorry for the ignorance; all this 'lectron stuff is completely new to me... >But I'm learing fast! That's what we're here for . . . Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------------- < Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition > < of man. Advances which permit this norm to be > < exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the > < work of an extremely small minority, frequently > < despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed > < by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny > < minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes > < happens) is driven out of a society, the people > < then slip back into abject poverty. > < > < This is known as "bad luck". > < -Lazarus Long- > <------------------------------------------------------> http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:18 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Tim Olson Very cool stuff Dave, and everyone else, thanks for the feedback on the SD-8 circuit. I am glad to see it isn't a problem to draw more than that little guy can deliver as long as you know it'll use up your 2nd battery faster. I'm with Bryan in that I'm spending a ton of cash on 3 Chelton screens and all the associated stuff, so I really don't mind baby-ing it a bit on engine start. It will be great to have that 2nd battery there so the voltage stays stable during the cranking. I think a Z-13/20 circuit would be fantastic, but it's a lot higher cost and is probably overkill for anything I would need....heck, Bob seems to consider most of these higher-numbered Z diagrams to be overkill. Best to keep it semi-simple. Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #170 Current project: Fuselage DO NOT ARCHIVE Dave Morris "BigD" wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" > > I know this is probably overkill just to keep an EFIS running during engine > cranking, but it's an interesting concept that is taking hold in the "Car > PC" world, and thus of interest to anybody putting computers in their > airplanes. If it's a PC, then this device will even decide that the low > voltage condition is going to be long-lasting and will punch the Power > button on your PC to start the hibernation process. > > http://www.carnetix.com/CNXP1260.html > > Dave Morris > > > At 05:46 PM 6/29/2005, you wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" >> >> >>Guess everyone has their own design goals. You seem to be happy with >>yours. I want to keep an EFIS screen and an EIS screen on during start >>without upsetting the electrons. The EIS for monitoring the engine (oil >>psi,etc)during start, and the EFIS 'cause I don't want to turn it on for >>flight planning (etc) only to have to cycle the power off and back on >>for the engine start. I am simply trying to figure out the most >>effective way to do this. >> >>-bryan >>rv7a >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] >>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup >> >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >> >>May be a question which reveals my lack of experience but why would you >>want >>to leave on any of the sensitive electronic equipment prior to starting >>the >>engine. As a standard procedure, I turn on the radio temporarily to >>listen >>to the ATIS and then I turn it off. When starting the engine, the only >>electrical items on are the strobe lights. Once the engine starts I turn >>on >>the alternator, make sure it is feeding things, and then I turn on >>everything else. Given this scenario, I do not need a second battery as >>my >>RV8 (fuselage stage) with PMAGS is not electrically dependent to keep >>the >>engine running. >> >>So, by applying the KISS principle, I've done away with a second battery >>and >>even got rid of the SD8. >> >>I, like most of you, love goodies - gages, glass screens, complex >>electrical >>systems - it seems to add value to our system whereas in fact it only >>feeds >>or ego, it does not really add functionality given the mission profile. >>Deciding on equipment has been a struggle against myself, but the KISS >>angels are finally getting through. >> >>Michele Delsol >>RV8 - Fuselage >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner- >>>aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bryan Hooks >>>Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 5:12 AM >>>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SD-8 as a less-than-full load backup >>> >>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" >>> >>> >>>Tim Olson said "... Besides that, there isn't really >>>a custom Z-diagram that describes using a small alternate >>>battery for only a couple loads, so modifying Z-13/8 seems >>>the reasonable thing." >>> >>>I've been trying to decide how to handle this very issue myself. With >> >>a >> >>>GRT screen on (and EIS for engine monitoring)during start, I believe >>>that AT LEAST the GRT will reset itself due to voltage drop. Now I >> >>know >> >>>we should all require our gadget designers to meet the standards set >>>forth in DO-160 (I think that's the one), and maybe Grand Rapids does >> >>- >> >>>but I still feel the need to have them on a separate battery during >>>engine start if for no other reason than to baby them ($$$$). >>> >>>So, what's the simplest way to add a small secondary battery to the >> >>dual >> >>>alternator single battery schematic without all the fancy ($$$) stuff. >>>I just want to be able to use the secondary battery during start for a >>>couple of key loads and ensure that it is charged by the alternators >>>during flight. >>> >>>Bryan Hooks >>>RV-7A, slowbuild >>>Finish kit came today >>>Knoxville, TN >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:00 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 24v starter 14 volt system drawing --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:23 PM 6/29/2005 -0500, you wrote: OOPS . . . I forgot to mention that this drawing is up to Rev -C- to fix some minor errors and clarify notations. See: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Starter/24V_Starter_14V_System.pdf >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark & Lisa" > >Bob, > >On your "24V Starter 14V System" schematic I note that the AUX BATT >(B2)incorporates an ANL 200 in the "fat wire" lead off the + side. My >assumption is that this limiter protects the rest of the starter circuit >should B2 suffer an internal short. The MAIN BATT (B1) incorporates an ANL >200 on the lead that connects K1 to K4. Should that also be between the B1 >and K1 to protect the rest of the system? > >If I follow this schematic properly, should B2 short inflight, the ANL 200 >on the + lead will blow removing B2 from the system--I still have access to >B1. If B1 shorts, what protects the rest of the system? The limiters are there ONLY to protect the system in case one of the contactors sticks or some wiring anomaly causes more than two contactors to be closed at one time. This has the potential for placing BIG loads on one of the batteries. >Control power for AUX BAT and PUSH TO START switches comes from the Main >Bus. Yes, from the START circuit fuse/breaker . . . >Where does control power for DC PWR MASTER switch originate? Does >this switch simply close the circuit coming down the right side of K1 to >ground, thereby closing the contactor? You got it. K1 is a conventional ground to operate battery contactor like those illustrated in all of the z-figures. The K2/5, K3/4 pairs are operated as pull up to +12 so that they can share the STARTER fuse and be assured exclusive operation by the position of S1. > If so, how much current does this >switch have to handle? Less than 1A >Sorry for the ignorance; all this 'lectron stuff is completely new to me... >But I'm learing fast! That's what we're here for . . . Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------------- < Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition > < of man. Advances which permit this norm to be > < exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the > < work of an extremely small minority, frequently > < despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed > < by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny > < minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes > < happens) is driven out of a society, the people > < then slip back into abject poverty. > < > < This is known as "bad luck". > < -Lazarus Long- > <------------------------------------------------------> http://www.aeroelectric.com ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:34 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Radio Shack Noise Filter 272-1085 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:41 PM 6/29/2005 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Walter Klatt > >Does anyone have one of these collecting dust >somewhere? Radio Shack used to carry this 40 amp, 0.5 >mfd at 50 vdc noise filter, part #272-1085, but >apparently discontinued it in year 2000. I had one on >my plane connected inline to my alternator output, >and worked fine for several years. However, it then >vibrated apart, and I replaced it with several others, >but none are able to do the job like that old Radio >Shack one. So, if anyone has one, and is willing to >part with it, or can tell me where I could find one, >please let me know. Thanks. Is that the cylindrical capacitor with threaded male studs on each end and a grounding/mounting bracket in the middle? As I recall, the R-S part had a slip-fit bracket that didn't hold well. A GOOD connection to the capacitor case was critical to the filter's operation. Sprague Electronics "Hypass" series devices are one example of this genre' of filter. One version is currently offered on Ebay at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7275&item=2249061066 . . . but is too small for your spplication. Surplus sales has a few: https://www.surplussales.com/Feedthrus/FTflangeMt.html again too small. Having said that, I can also offer that filters on the back of an alternator are generally useful only for reducing RF interference to low frequency nav radios like ADF and Loran. Was this filter added to address a problem with one of these radios? The seldom provide useful attenuation of audible alternator whine in audio systems. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:40 PM PST US From: "Tom..." Subject: AeroElectric-List: MicroAir T2000 Transponder & ALT-4 .... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tom..." Hi, I bought a MicroAir T2000 SFL Transponder and a Stratomaster Maxi Single ALT-4, I finally got around to installing them. I made a cable according to the wiring diagram in the manual that shows these two connected. I installed them into my home built helicopter and when I power them up they both seem to go thru their start up test just fine. But when I go to "Alt Display" on the Transponder it says "NO ALTITUDE". I have removed the unites from my helicopter, buzzed the cable and it is correct. Yes I have the GNDs connected. I have it hooked up on a bench and it says the same thing. When I disconnect the encoder cable the Transponder continues to say the same thing "NO ALT". The Altimeter "seems" to indicate the correct altitude, the VSI portion "seems" to work. I sent the ALT-4 back and they say it checked out fine but just to be 100+% sure they sent me a new unit. Same exact thing. I am 99.999% sure that the cable is done according to the manual, I even had a friend buzz it too. Have ya heard of this before? Do ya have any ideas? Thanks for your time, Tom...