Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:09 AM - Re: Tach source for EIS ()
2. 05:46 AM - Re: Re: Tach source for EIS (John Swartout)
3. 06:16 AM - Re: Cherokee bouncing loadmeter (Lloyd, Daniel R.)
4. 07:43 AM - Re: alternate air conditioning (Dave Morris)
5. 08:47 AM - Re: alternate air conditioning (al.herron@Aerojet.com (Herron, Al))
6. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Tach source for EIS (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 09:37 AM - Slow starter (Charlie Burton)
8. 11:19 AM - Re: "P" lead length (John Schroeder)
9. 11:22 AM - Re: Re: Tach source for EIS (DonVS)
10. 02:29 PM - Best architecture for two alternator all-electric 912S Kitfox (Jon Goguen)
11. 03:25 PM - Re: Cherokee bouncing loadmeter (jdalton77)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Tach source for EIS |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
John:
I can save you a lot of trouble. What is your tack drive doing on the back of your
engine? Nothing and you are likely going to have to buy a cover $10 for it.
Well for $30 or $40 you can forget it and always measure RPM off the mechanical
drive. It does not matter what your ignition is doing, which is the way it
should be.
Get a UMA tack drive. It is small and works real well. I recall mine put out 2 pulses per revolution of the tack drive. The tack drive ratio is 0.50:1, meaning it goes around only once for every two revs of the crank; I recall the EIS Tack setting is (1). http://www.umainstruments.com/1a3tsu.htm
The thing works perfect and needs a 5V max power supply to tickle the EIS.
Trying to switch between left or right ignition and switch your tack source is
a pain, and can be done with some switching. Most don't bother and select just
one side to connect to the EIS and accept a zero reading on a mag check with
that side off. KEEP IT SIMPLE. I would not screw too much with connections to
the brain box of your electronic ignition. Most people find simple toggle switch
works well for electronic ignition.
I assume you have a way to kill you P-mag after it is running? From what I understand
it is self-sustaining after start-up?
Good luck George
PS Westach makes a tack drive as well as Van's aircraft sells one but it is bulky.
I like the UMA for being compact.
Time: 08:59:56 PM PST US
From: "John Swartout" <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tach source for EIS
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout"
<jgswartout@earthlink.net>
Bob and others:
The tachometer function on my Grand Rapids Technologies Engine
Information System uses input from the electronic ignition (dual
P-mags). It only accepts one input. Should I wire only one of the
P-mags to the EIS, or both? That is, is there any reason to run a wire
from each of the ignitions with a switch to select which one supplies
rpm data to the EIS? Thanks.
John
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Tach source for EIS |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout" <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
George, does that UMA tack drive convert mechanical to electronic to
supply the EIS? 5 volts is sort of odd. How do you supply 5 volts to
yours?
I'll be using toggle switches per Z13-8 for the Pmags, so can turn off
either one at any time.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tach source for EIS
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
John:
I can save you a lot of trouble. What is your tack drive doing on the
back of your engine? Nothing and you are likely going to have to buy a
cover $10 for it. Well for $30 or $40 you can forget it and always
measure RPM off the mechanical drive. It does not matter what your
ignition is doing, which is the way it should be.
Get a UMA tack drive. It is small and works real well. I recall mine put
out 2 pulses per revolution of the tack drive. The tack drive ratio is
0.50:1, meaning it goes around only once for every two revs of the
crank; I recall the EIS Tack setting is (1).
http://www.umainstruments.com/1a3tsu.htm
The thing works perfect and needs a 5V max power supply to tickle the
EIS.
Trying to switch between left or right ignition and switch your tack
source is a pain, and can be done with some switching. Most don't bother
and select just one side to connect to the EIS and accept a zero reading
on a mag check with that side off. KEEP IT SIMPLE. I would not screw too
much with connections to the brain box of your electronic ignition. Most
people find simple toggle switch works well for electronic ignition.
I assume you have a way to kill you P-mag after it is running? From what
I understand it is self-sustaining after start-up?
Good luck George
PS Westach makes a tack drive as well as Van's aircraft sells one but it
is bulky. I like the UMA for being compact.
Time: 08:59:56 PM PST US
From: "John Swartout" <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tach source for EIS
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout"
<jgswartout@earthlink.net>
Bob and others:
The tachometer function on my Grand Rapids Technologies Engine
Information System uses input from the electronic ignition (dual
P-mags). It only accepts one input. Should I wire only one of the
P-mags to the EIS, or both? That is, is there any reason to run a wire
from each of the ignitions with a switch to select which one supplies
rpm data to the EIS? Thanks.
John
Message 3
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| Subject: | Cherokee bouncing loadmeter |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Lloyd, Daniel R." <LloydDR@wernerco.com>
My '68 140 also has the same issue, but it is not consistent, sometimes
it bounces, then it will go several flights without presenting, then
everyday for a week. Weird.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jdalton77
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Cherokee bouncing loadmeter
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "jdalton77"
<jdalton77@comcast.net>
My 1973 Cherokee 140 suffers from the "bouncing" load meter problem.
Load meter jumps to the right in a rhythm that I think is related to the
strobes but seems to happen even when the light is off.
It's been like that since I bought the plane a few years back. I've
heard a lot of "reason" for this to happen - but no consistent story.
There must be a real answer ....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Zeftronics vs B&C
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
--> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 06:52 AM 7/21/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Peter Mather"
>--> <peter@mather.com>
>
>Bob
>
>The new rev A version appears to include LV unless I'm mis-interpreting
>the spec.
I've looked the spec sheet over at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Zeftronics/R15V00RevA-PIT.pdf
The way this is set up, I believe that "low volts" is inferred
by noting alternator shutdown. The low volts sensor is not an
independently powered monitor of actual bus voltage. The Zeftronics
implementation seems to be a more sophisticated version of the
alternator "idiot light" of years gone by.
I suspect the regulation and ovp features are just fine. I'd
still recommend a separate LV Warning system of some variety.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: alternate air conditioning |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dave Morris <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
We looked at using these chips 20 years ago to cool the inside of a
computer cabinet without requiring large cooling fans and holes (that let
RFI out). Their power consumption was what made us give up.
Dave Morris
At 07:18 PM 7/21/2005, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dj Merrill
><deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu>
>
>Mark Cochran wrote:
>
> > So the 300 watts works out to about 21 Amps, is that right? Might work with
> > a low-moderate heat load in the cockpit, but probably would take a while to
> > achieve a large delta T.
>
> Hmmm - perhaps might not be enough to cool the entire
>cabin, but maybe it might be good enough just to be able to
>blow some cool air on the pilot, and maybe the passenger too.
>
>-Dj
>
>do not archive
>
>--
>Dj Merrill
>Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118
>
>"TSA: Totally Screwing Aviation"
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: alternate air conditioning |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: al.herron@Aerojet.com (Herron, Al)
Interesting idea. There is a web site for Peltier
chips: http://www.peltier-info.com/info.html. These things are normally
used for small-scale cooling of electronic equipment. According to the
website, the Peltier chips are not very efficient and "draw amps of
power". Of course, what a computer manufacturer considers inefficient
might be nothing compared to a mechanical compressor setup.
Somebody figure this out and call me back when you have a $39.95 unit I
can plug into my plane! ; )
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Tach source for EIS |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
George,
Excellent answer. Long before electronic
tachs came along, we had a single speedometer
cable coming of the back of the engine which
drove the instrument on the panel.
Electronic tachs have been a pain in the arse
from day-one in that every new design took a slightly
different approach to processing magneto signals
and to make matters more difficult, every new electronic
ignition offered what the designer believed was
the elegant solution for data output to everyone else's
tachometers.
John's question raises a fundamental issue about
how NECESSARY is a tachometer for the purpose of
safely operating the airplane?
I had a boss who took the company Bonanza on a
cross-country trip and found that the tach was
dead when he prepared to return from an airport
about 150 miles away. He called a mechanic to
fly out and fix his airplane (tach cable
was unscrewed from the back of the engine and
fell off).
But just suppose one is in a similar situation
with an electronic tach failure. How does this
condition introduce new risk with respect to
flying the airplane home sans tach? I'll suggest
little or no risk.
In the case of the A36, we know that the governor
prevents operation above red-line. Operation at
red-line is in the POH as a permissible rpm setting
for cruise operations. If your airplane needs to
run slower, give the prop knob a few twists and
slow it down. Then continue the flight. Fixed
pitch airplanes may be capable of exceeding red-line
in level flight, fine . . . make a normal take off
and bring throttle back till the engine sounds
more relaxed. Set up for cruise and then adjust
power for, say 5-10 kts below your normal cruise
speed. Then you KNOW that the engine is at some
point below published limits.
My point is that a tachometer is used for PRECISE
adjustment of conditions that produce the desired
power setting. However, safe operation of the
airplane can be accomplished over a huge range
of power settings, none of which are stressful
to the engine. With some simple observations and
knowledge of how the airplane operates, one can
very safely launch, cruise and land sans tachometer
without adding risk.
Therefore, I'll suggest that supplying an electronic
tach with a signal from one of two electronic
ignitions does not represent an incremental
step up in risk for getting the airplane home
should that particular signal path become
unavailable. If it were my airplane, I'd
hook up to one of the two ignition systems
and quit worrying about it.
Bob . . .
>John:
>
>I can save you a lot of trouble. What is your tack drive doing on the back
>of your engine? Nothing and you are likely going to have to buy a cover
>$10 for it. Well for $30 or $40 you can forget it and always measure RPM
>off the mechanical drive. It does not matter what your ignition is doing,
>which is the way it should be.
>
>Get a UMA tack drive. It is small and works real well. I recall mine put
>out 2 pulses per revolution of the tack drive. The tack drive ratio is
>0.50:1, meaning it goes around only once for every two revs of the crank;
>I recall the EIS Tack setting is (1). http://www.umainstruments.com/1a3tsu.htm
>
>
>The thing works perfect and needs a 5V max power supply to tickle the EIS.
>
>Trying to switch between left or right ignition and switch your tack
>source is a pain, and can be done with some switching. Most don't bother
>and select just one side to connect to the EIS and accept a zero reading
>on a mag check with that side off. KEEP IT SIMPLE. I would not screw too
>much with connections to the brain box of your electronic ignition. Most
>people find simple toggle switch works well for electronic ignition.
>
>I assume you have a way to kill you P-mag after it is running? From what I
>understand it is self-sustaining after start-up?
>
>Good luck George
>
>
>PS Westach makes a tack drive as well as Van's aircraft sells one but it
>is bulky. I like the UMA for being compact.
>
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout"
><jgswartout@earthlink.net>
>
>Bob and others:
>
>The tachometer function on my Grand Rapids Technologies Engine
>Information System uses input from the electronic ignition (dual
>P-mags). It only accepts one input. Should I wire only one of the
>P-mags to the EIS, or both? That is, is there any reason to run a wire
>from each of the ignitions with a switch to select which one supplies
>rpm data to the EIS? Thanks.
>
>John
Message 7
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Charlie Burton" <notrubce@hotmail.com>
I have a condition in my O-360 Glastar that puzzles me. I can turn the key switch
(Aircraft Spruce) to START and the engine starts to turn but at a slow rate
like a low battery, high compression, too small a battery cable, etc. The strange
part is that I just let go of the key and then try it again and the engine
turns over very nicely and starts on the first revolution through. I have one
mag on the left side and a Lightspeed ignition on the right. Any ideas?
Charlie Burton & N331Fox
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: "P" lead length |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Bob -
Thanks for the diagram. After a good night's sleep and some study of the
diagram, we concluded that the mags were indeed wired OK. We did
disconnect the leads and ground shields to check for shorts. The problem
was in the test plan!! You gotta put the meter in line and not across the
lines!
Thanks for the help.
John
>
> See http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Ignition/TogMagSw.pdf
>
> Try disconnecting the switch leads entirely. You may have
> shorted wiring between the switch and the magneto.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Tach source for EIS |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DonVS" <dsvs@comcast.net>
John,
You can't do it with the device that George recommended. Both of your mag
drive holes are in use. You only need one lead to the EIS from a single
PMAG. The rpm reading will come through even with the PMAG shut off. This
is assuming that you have the new PMAG with the green wire for tach drive.
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tach source for EIS
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
John:
I can save you a lot of trouble. What is your tack drive doing on the back
of your engine? Nothing and you are likely going to have to buy a cover $10
for it. Well for $30 or $40 you can forget it and always measure RPM off the
mechanical drive. It does not matter what your ignition is doing, which is
the way it should be.
Get a UMA tack drive. It is small and works real well. I recall mine put out
2 pulses per revolution of the tack drive. The tack drive ratio is 0.50:1,
meaning it goes around only once for every two revs of the crank; I recall
the EIS Tack setting is (1). http://www.umainstruments.com/1a3tsu.htm
The thing works perfect and needs a 5V max power supply to tickle the EIS.
Trying to switch between left or right ignition and switch your tack source
is a pain, and can be done with some switching. Most don't bother and select
just one side to connect to the EIS and accept a zero reading on a mag check
with that side off. KEEP IT SIMPLE. I would not screw too much with
connections to the brain box of your electronic ignition. Most people find
simple toggle switch works well for electronic ignition.
I assume you have a way to kill you P-mag after it is running? From what I
understand it is self-sustaining after start-up?
Good luck George
PS Westach makes a tack drive as well as Van's aircraft sells one but it is
bulky. I like the UMA for being compact.
Time: 08:59:56 PM PST US
From: "John Swartout" <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tach source for EIS
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout"
<jgswartout@earthlink.net>
Bob and others:
The tachometer function on my Grand Rapids Technologies Engine
Information System uses input from the electronic ignition (dual
P-mags). It only accepts one input. Should I wire only one of the
P-mags to the EIS, or both? That is, is there any reason to run a wire
from each of the ignitions with a switch to select which one supplies
rpm data to the EIS? Thanks.
John
Message 10
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| Subject: | Best architecture for two alternator all-electric 912S |
Kitfox
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen <jon.goguen@umassmed.edu>
We've just decided to commit to an all-electric system, in part because
we're convinced it's more reliable than vacuum, but also because a
second alternator to supplement the built-in PM alternator on the 912S
will make the energy budgeting less critical. I think we could make it
work with original alternator only, but would need to go to LED
position lights and take a series of other power efficiency measures.
On the whole, the redundancy of the second alternator seems best, and
will get the project completed more quickly: we're determined to be in
the air this fall.
We plan to use an SD-20 on the vacuum pump pad. I've been given
figures ranging from 12-17 amps as reasonable expectations from the
SD-20 in this installation, and figure I can count on a conservative 30
amps from both alternators in combination. I'm looking for
recommendations regarding the most reasonable architecture for this
combination. Two batteries or one? A big one and a little one? Both
alternators on line all the time? I've read the 'Connection (don't
know my Z-numbers yet without looking and don't have the book handy),
but it's clear that several choices are possible. Anyone see a strong
reason to favor one arrangement for our proposed alternator
combination? We do plan eventual IFR operation, (Garmin 300XL IFR
GPS/Com, one Nav radio, VAL single-hole ILS system, and electric gyros,
supplemented with the an Anywhere map system including weather).
Thanks in advance for any and all suggestions. We had already acquired
much of the vacuum stuff (pump, regulator, and gyros) so now I need to
get the electric versions. Any suggests regarding sources for
cost-effective AI and DG would also be welcome. I will be at OshKosh
from Thursday evening through Sunday AM, and hope to do some some to
complete the equipment list. (If you have any interest in the vacuum
stuff, enquiries are welcome.)
Jon
Jon Goguen
jon.goguen@umassmed.edu
Central Massachusetts
Kitfox Series V Rotax 912S / N456JG (reserved)
Complete except for electrics and avionics
Message 11
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| Subject: | Cherokee bouncing loadmeter |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "jdalton77" <jdalton77@comcast.net>
I tried that but unfortunately it still happens.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
EuropaXSA276@aol.com
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cherokee bouncing loadmeter
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: EuropaXSA276@aol.com
In a message dated 7/21/2005 9:31:35 PM Central Standard Time,
jdalton77@comcast.net writes:
My 1973 Cherokee 140 suffers from the "bouncing" load meter problem.
Load meter jumps to the right in a rhythm that I think is related to the
strobes but seems to happen even when the light is off.
My 140E had the same problem. Very common problem. Fixed it by
installing a
new voltage regulator.
Brian Skelly
Texas
Europa # A276 TriGear
See My build photos at:
http://www.europaowners.org/BrianS
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