Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:51 AM - Re: Aeroelectric List Format (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
2. 10:39 AM - Re: Re: Aeroelectric List Format (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
3. 10:39 AM - Re: Aeroelectric List Format (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
4. 01:38 PM - Toggle Switch & Breaker (Bill Denton)
5. 02:09 PM - Re: Aeroelectric List Format (Eric M. Jones)
6. 08:34 PM - Re: New/rebuilt Alternators IGN wire (Was: real data on ovp/etc) ()
Message 1
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| Subject: | Aeroelectric List Format |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Very interesting observation and I agree that the list could benefit from a Wiki.
The -10 list has been throwing this around for a while and I believe one
is about to be set up to take care of some of the repeat Q&A's. As far as images
go, if we ask nicely Matt would probably allow them as we are allowed on a
couple other Matronics lists. Just need everyone to be responsible when posting,
just as non relevant discussions like this should contain "do not archive"
in order to keep the archives from filling up. ;-)
Michael Sausen
-10 #252 Main Spars
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aeroelectric List Format
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones"
--> <emjones@charter.net>
When the Federal government and IBM were struggling in court a decade ago, IBM's
defense strategy was to send truckloads of documents to the government prosecutors.
When the prosecutors asked for the slightest clarification on any point,
IBM would ask for a geological amount of time to answer the question, then
responded with more truckloads of documents. IBM kept this up until the government
simply gave up and went away.
This is to illustrate that all methods of argument are not equal, and some lead
nowhere. I suspect that this "public email list server" has its structural limits,
and we have exceeded them mightily.
So what to do....? I suspect that the Aeroelectric Connection (or its clone) should
be turned into a free document that can be edited continuously online like
Wikipedia or other open source documents. Although one could charge for the
subscription, the consensus seems to be that free subscriptions and paid advertising
works better.
Good textsbooks like the Aeroelectric Connection remain unread for the most part
since people absorb what they find of most interest at the moment. Books also
freeze a particular technical viewpoint, and the technology is changing too
fast for this to be the medium of choice.
The Aeroelectric list is handicapped by many operational limitations, such as no
graphics attachments, no video clips, short display times (seven days goes zooming
by), obscure formatting restrictions, etc.
The wonders of the internet allow magical connections between people. We aren't
doing it yet and as a result problems with discourse follow. The list is tiresomely
repetitive, running the same debates on and on, just because the medium
makes it so easy to forget all the arguments previously posted. I could suggest
just numbering the arguments like the old joke about the comedian convention.
Mr. X and Mr. Y lashing each other about load dump, "Well, that's old # XY-LD135Z.
I thought we resolved that....let's see....two years ago? Let's put on
our thinking caps (the beanie with the little propeller on it), and seek a better
answer.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"What the West really has to offer is honesty. Somehow, in the midst of their horrid
history, the best among the Gaijin learned a wonderful lesson. They learned
to distrust themselves, to doubt even what they were taught to believe or
what their egos make them yearn to see. To know that even truth must be scrutinized,
it was a great discovery...."
-- David Brin, "Dr. Pak's Preschool"
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Aeroelectric List Format |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
Wiki's are an interesting thing in that they work surprisingly well given that anyone can update them. They are more of a social experiment in collaboration, just as this list is, than a FAQ. However, with this list being created in direct response to supporting a specific product, I don't know if a Wiki would work well without a significant level of support from Bob. The RV10 Wiki is now up and running @ <http://www.rv10wiki.com> thanks to Sean Stephens. It was just put up so I don't think it has much info yet but it may be something to watch to see how well it works as a model for something similar for us here.
Bottom line is, whether it's a FAQ, a Wiki, or a forum, it's unlikely to replace
this list but may be a good supplement to it.
Michael Sausen
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frank & Dorothy
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Aeroelectric List Format
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Frank & Dorothy
--> <frankvdh@xtra.co.nz>
> I suspect that the Aeroelectric Connection (or its clone) should be turned
into a free document that can be edited continuously online
I don't see that working.
1. How do you ensure quality? i.e. if its freely editable, then anyone can add
any misunderstanding or inaccuracy or urban myth to it.
2. What about liability? For me in NZ, its not a big issue. But you're in the litigious
USA. Perhaps you post something slightly inaccurate, or maybe it is accurate
but not well explained. It's used by someone building a Lancair IV which
subsequently has an electrical failure, crashes, and kills all aboard. Will
the lawyers come after you? Will you be giving away information to help someone
else if it means risking financial ruin?
3. Some time ago, I tried to run something similar... I called it "The Bunny's
Guide to RV Building" (RV being a Vans RV-6 aircraft). As I built my RV, I added
photos and text (some my own, a fair amount extracted from the RV-list archives),
specifically aiming it at being an improvement on Vans' manual. The model
I worked with was that I maintained the web pages, and asked people to email
me with improvements, additions, etc. I got lots of feedback saying what a great
resource it was. But I only got about half a dozen submissions in about
6 years. I'm not sure why it didn't work.
4. What we have now works. I've bought a copy of Bob's book, and I think it is
good value. Why change?
5. Advertising-supported web sites just mean that readers pay for the content to
someone else. You pay in wasted bandwidth and wasted time.
6. Books don't update themselves. A significant part of authoring is editing.
7. To some extent, the archives at Matronics are "the book writing itself". But
without the editing!
Me, I'm of the "think about what you're planning before destroying something" ilk.
Frank
>I didn't mean Bob should not be paid for his labors. I meant -- if Bob
>chose to give away the book and have advertising on the site it might
>be a plus for all concerned. He would probably make out better too--and
>the book would update itself.
>
>I see you are one of the "love it or leave it" ilk. Well, mine is the
>"improve it if possible" ilk
>
>Regards,
>Eric M. Jones
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Aeroelectric List Format |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
I don't believe anyone was suggesting replacing this list. Cracks me up when
people over react to anything that smells like change or could possibly be questioning
something Bob says. He is the first person that wants his ideas held
up to scrutiny which is why I respect him. Don't forget though, no one is infallible.
I also don't think Eric was complaining, just suggesting there might
be a better way.
And oh ya, seeing how this post has nothing to do with the list subject, just as
the one below doesn't: DO NOT ARCHIVE
Michael Sausen
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil Birkelbach
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aeroelectric List Format
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Phil Birkelbach
--> <phil@petrasoft.net>
That's funny, I thought that Bob was giving away the updates to his book. I guess
I must have imagined that. I reckon you could write your own book and give
it away for nothing, but it doesn't seem fair to ask someone else to give away
their hard work.
Yahoogroups has most of the features that you have described. There is nothing
stopping you from starting one of those or creating your own internet resource.
I guess I don't see the point of just complaining about this resource, if
you think there is a better way then "get after it".
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB - Finishing Up
http://www.myrv7.com
Eric M. Jones wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones"
>--> <emjones@charter.net>
>
>When the Federal government and IBM were struggling in court a decade ago, IBM's
defense strategy was to send truckloads of documents to the government prosecutors.
When the prosecutors asked for the slightest clarification on any point,
IBM would ask for a geological amount of time to answer the question, then
responded with more truckloads of documents. IBM kept this up until the government
simply gave up and went away.
>
>This is to illustrate that all methods of argument are not equal, and some lead
nowhere. I suspect that this "public email list server" has its structural limits,
and we have exceeded them mightily.
>
>So what to do....? I suspect that the Aeroelectric Connection (or its clone) should
be turned into a free document that can be edited continuously online like
Wikipedia or other open source documents. Although one could charge for the
subscription, the consensus seems to be that free subscriptions and paid advertising
works better.
>
>Good textsbooks like the Aeroelectric Connection remain unread for the most part
since people absorb what they find of most interest at the moment. Books also
freeze a particular technical viewpoint, and the technology is changing too
fast for this to be the medium of choice.
>
>The Aeroelectric list is handicapped by many operational limitations, such as
no graphics attachments, no video clips, short display times (seven days goes
zooming by), obscure formatting restrictions, etc.
>
>The wonders of the internet allow magical connections between people. We aren't
doing it yet and as a result problems with discourse follow. The list is tiresomely
repetitive, running the same debates on and on, just because the medium
makes it so easy to forget all the arguments previously posted. I could suggest
just numbering the arguments like the old joke about the comedian convention.
Mr. X and Mr. Y lashing each other about load dump, "Well, that's old # XY-LD135Z.
I thought we resolved that....let's see....two years ago? Let's put on
our thinking caps (the beanie with the little propeller on it), and seek a better
answer.
>
>Regards,
>Eric M. Jones
>www.PerihelionDesign.com
>113 Brentwood Drive
>Southbridge MA 01550-2705
>(508) 764-2072
>
>"What the West really has to offer is honesty. Somehow, in the midst of
>their horrid history, the best among the Gaijin learned a wonderful
>lesson. They learned to distrust themselves, to doubt even what they
>were taught to believe or what their egos make them yearn to see. To
>know that even truth must be scrutinized, it was a great discovery...."
> -- David Brin, "Dr. Pak's Preschool"
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Toggle Switch & Breaker |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" <bdenton@bdenton.com>
A couple of questions:
What configuration of toggle switch (SPST, SPDT, etc) would I need to do the
following:
Down position - Off - Input not connected to any output
Center position - Low - Input connected to one output
Up position - High - Input connected to second output
This would be used to feed a strobe power supply that offers both a low and
a high output. A source of supply for this switch would also be appreciated.
Second question:
The Rotax 503 wiring diagram calls for a 15-amp fuse between the
rectifier-regulator and the positive battery terminal. Would there be any
reason not to use a combination toggle switch/circuit breaker, such as the
W31X2M1G-15 from Wicks Aircraft Supply for this purpose?
Thank you!
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Aeroelectric List Format |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
Do not archive
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)"
<rvbuilder@sausen.net>
>>Wiki's are an interesting thing in that they work surprisingly well given
>>that anyone can update them. They are more of a social experiment in
>>collaboration, just as this list is, than a FAQ. However, with this list
>>being created in direct response to supporting a specific product, I don't
>>know if a Wiki would work well without a significant level of support from
>>Bob. The RV10 Wiki is now up and running @ <http://www.rv10wiki.com>
>>thanks to Sean Stephens. It was just put up so I don't think it has much
>>info yet but it may be something to watch to see how well it works as a
>>model for something similar for us here.........Michael Sausen
Thanks Michael,
I know very little about Wiki's and I suppose there are other approaches
too. I understand that some form of control has to be used to keep things
going in a straight line. Perhaps the "Aeroelectric Connection" should be
the FAQ and Bob the gatekeeper.
I merely suggest that much vituperation is the result of the medium. I am
also not planning to start anything new. I've got my own fish to fry for
now. But change is in the air.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never
tried before.
--Mae West
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: New/rebuilt Alternators IGN wire (Was: real data |
on ovp/etc)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
Matt wrote:
>Okay, you've fenced your paradigm in a bit tighter. You
>seem to be suggesting that only a "brand new ND" alternator
>is suited to operation in your proposed paradigm. Which
>part number? Will it offer positive ON/OFF control via
>the little wire out the back?
I think your paradigm is way too complicated for me, but I will try to explain.
Matt I am not suggesting anything, but from common sense to me NEW with all OEM
Nippondenso parts is better than rebuilt/used.
(STORY)
My personal experience with alternator problems, rebuilt alternators and over the
counter trade-ins was on my Acura Legend. After approx 12 years and 200,000
miles the alternator stopped working altogether. I brought it to a local auto
electric shop that had been in business for 60 years. You could tell because
the walls and floor was littered with the remains of 100's and 100's of alternators
and associated parts. Well I wanted my actual original alternator and not
an exchange so decided to let them rebuild it. New brushes and something else
was what it needed? I don't recall. It did not work when I replaced it so returned
it. The second try worked a bit better but never as good as it had. The
battery did not seem to get as much charge. Well it died again while on a road
trip about a year later. I went to a local Pep Boys, near where my car died
and exchanged it for a rebuild. I replaced it in the parking lot myself with minimum
tools. I was impressed with the quality of the
finish
on the rebuild. It even came with documentation showing a Power Vs. RPM graph
from a test run for that rebuilt unit. It has worked well for many years since
and still is going. This car is now my dedicated airport car since I fly all
the time and leave it parked for days and weeks at a time. (Side note if I am
gone more than a week I disconnect the battery, because the computer will drain
the battery in about 2 weeks and always has.) SO WHAT DOES THAN MEAN, nothing
but may be not all rebuilds are the same. For my plane I still will buy new
and for my car I guess I'll go to Pep Boys. However sometimes you can get a new
one for less than a rebuild.
>Matt wrote:
>Will it offer positive ON/OFF control via the little wire out the back?
Little black wire? I think on my wire harness it is yellow or green, but you are
talking about the IGN wire that goes to the IR-internal (voltage) regulator.
Positive ON/OFF Control? You don't need any POSITIVE control. When ever the engine
is running the alternator should be ON, always. When ever you turn the master
BAT switch OFF the alternator should be turned off (at the same time), while
not under load (turning). You must never turn the BAT off with the ALT on.
The IR is automatic and there is no need to manually control the alternator. If
there is a fault it should shut down automatically.
The IGN wire is not qusi ON/OFF switch. It is not the intent use. It does work
as an ON switch in that if you start the engine with the ALT OFF (no power to
the IGN wire) it should not make juice. However turning the alternator ON (power
to the IGN wire) after starting the engine with it off, it will TURN ON. It
will also FRY IT. Don't do it. May be you should read my SNIP.
Now can you turn it off with the engine still running? I do not think so. My current
plane and new 45amp ND are not running yet. I sold my last plane and can't
go out and test it to tell you. However I would not even want to do it because
there is no reason and I don't want to damage my alternator.
Why do you want to manually shut the alternator off? Why? That is a bad idea. I
never, never would turn the ALT or BAT off with the engine running (well except
for one special condition). Why would you ever do this? What purpose would
this serve? When would you shut a perfect alternator down with the engine running?
The IR has it's own auto fault protections and will shut down. There is
that rare OV case I mentioned in the previous post (SNIP) that in theory a scenario
happens where nothing will turn the alternator OFF. As I said I never found
any documented run-a-way cases with an IR Denso alternators. So what happens
if this does occur?
Most if not all the reported OV cases are old memories of old time alternators
with their old time external regulators. However if you did have a runaway OV
condition with your ND alternator, pulling the power to the IGN wire of the IR
alternator may do nothing. First the IR should have caught it. If id did not
than it may have failed. In the above scenario the regulator is by-passed. The
only cure is pulling the B-lead circuit breaker (CB). You say you are using a
fuse for the B-lead and not a panel mounted CB. Ok, than turn the BAT master
off (the one special condition I mentioned). You are saying if you turn the BAT
off than the engine will stop (EFI, dual EI, electric pumps). Well the engine
will keep turning if you have a carb, mechanical FI, mags or self-powered ignition.
If your engine is electrically depended, it should be on a standby battery
to drive it's essential buss, separate from the main BAT bus. If you can't
stand the loss of your main BAT buss, use the big u
gly
(alleged noisy- but not necessarily so) B-lead CB in the panel that almost every
certified factory plane has. You act as a manual crow bar by pulling it. Again
very unlikely and never proved to me to be a real concern. However if it did
happen, you have an out. By the way if you did turn the BAT off, once the alternator
burns out, and it would, you have the option to turn the BAT master
back on. Land.
Here is the deal, I am a KISS guy, not the Band KISS but KEEP IT SIMPLE. I would
wire a Denso just like the manufactures who use them in their products (cars,
trucks, tractors, folk lifts, outboard motor's, etc...). The IGN wire should
be energized before cranking the engine and remain energized until you shut the
engine down and than turn the BATT switch off. There is no separate switch
provided to the alternator. Also according to the Niagara Air parts Kit you should
(MUST) tie the ALT to the BAT. (do it like this)
http://www.niagaraairparts.com/alt-instr.pdf
Let the automatic functions of the alternator's internal regulator IC chip take
care of starting and shutting down the alternator. There is no need to manually
control it. All we have to do to start and stop the alternator is turn the
pulley (start and stop the engine).
I think you said so a Cessna driver can't damage it. Good idea. I don't care for
the Cessna split rocker switch (tied together so you could not turn the BATT
off without turning the ALT off also.)
(STORY)
Way back when I was an instructor about a few students (none of mine thank God)
who would accidentally turn the BAT on and split the switch, leaving the ALT
off, which you can do. They would start the engine, taxi out and fly away with
the ALT off. They did not notice the amp meter discharge or little yellow light.
After flying say less than an hour they would have a complete loss of electrical
power (drained battery). Well they would find the problem and would turn
the ALT on, which was off the whole time. Guess what. The alternator started
pumping so much current to charge the dead battery, with all the radios and lights
still on, the big CB (b-lead from alternator) would POP. They forgot to
load shed before powering the alternator back on. Not wanting to reset the breaker
more than once, they would than make an unscheduled stop and a call to the
flight club. That is why I like a single toggle switch (DPST) for the BAT/ALT
and not the Cessna split rocker style switch.
-Ladies and Gentleman in the Event of an Emergency
The alternator IGN goes thru a CB, so if you need to shut it down manually than
pull the CB. If that does not work pull the B-lead CB in the panel (read above).
A scenario that would call for this is if the alternator stopped working in
flight. To save drain from the regulator, if any, pull the CB, since the alternator
is not working anyway. There are procedures on the B757 that call for
pulling a CB per "non-normal checklist" (emergency checklist is not used by Boeing),
so it is perfectly normal to use a CB as an occasional switch.
There are up to 4 AC GENS on a B757: 2 engine, 1 APU and on planes 1 Hydraulic
driven GEN. All are the same 90 kVA GEN. They connect and parallel automatically
and shut down if there is a fault automatically, with no pilot action. What
is the point? They don't even trust airline pilots to throw the right switch
so the automated it. Well not really but to the point let your little DENSO alternator's
automatic IR functions work as designed; It is smarter than you when
it comes to knowing when to turn itself ON and OFF. My theory is to see how
few switches you can use, not how many. RV-8 should not have more switches than
a B-757. Less is more, KISS
Why do we have to make this so hard? Is there a need to throw a dozen switched
to accomplish an engine start in a single engine airplane?
>Matt wrote:
>It seems like it would be a simple task to pick an alternator off the shelf and
>take it to the bench and test this aspect of performance using their machine.
Not sure what you paradigm you are driving at? I hope that answers your question.
By all means buy a used alternator if you like. I was happy with Pep Boys for
my Acura.
You mention checking the rebuild in the store. That will not mean much if it craps
out on your inaugural flight to Oshkosh in your new Sky Scooter 2005. However
if you can, in my personal opinion (and I mean opinion), buy a new one. I
have no facts to back that up. It is just my feeling NEW is better than rebuilt
for an alternator. Paul asked a few questions and was told that rebuild is really
RRR - Repair & Replace as (little as) required. So some parts, regulator,
bearings for example might have 200,000 miles on it? I don't know if that is
true. Again it must depend on who does the rebuild. Also there are aftermarket
DENSO repair parts. I don't know if the quality is as good as OEM but I guess
there is a chance other brand replacement parts are not as good? The nice part
of Pep Boy's or AutoZone is I think you can buy a lifetime warranty. If you
get on the web you might find a DENSO distributor that will sell you at least
a factory re-manufactured alternator will all DENSO
parts?
Copy gratuitously what has worked before. This is not a test, so its not cheating.
Good luck. George
Subject: Re:Real data on OVP/etc (disinterested?)
From: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
Hi Bob,
...
snipped a bunch
...
I have no idea about aftermarket rebuilds or second tier replacement parts
VS. OEM parts from ND. ND alternators can be bought new easily at
discounted price if you shop around. The medium frame 60 amp ND's are more
readily available as a rebuild, but they can be bought new if you look.
Okay, you've fenced your paradigm in a bit tighter. You
seem to be suggesting that only a "brand new ND" alternator
is suited to operation in your proposed paradigm. Which
part number? Will it offer positive ON/OFF control via
the little wire out the back?
I have an idea...
Most people probably have access to a local auto parts retailer which has
an alternator test machine (with a motor and belt drive, etc). It seems
like it would be a simple task to pick an alternator off the shelf and
take it to the bench and test this aspect of performance using their
machine. It might take a bit of convincing of the salesperson to let you
come to the back room and play with their machine. It should be easy to
rig up a jumper from the control lead pigtail that could be disconnected
and then grounded once the machine is up and running.
Remember to tell the salesperson that the alternator is being installed in
an off-road vehicle. Admittedly, that the alternator can be turned off via the
control lead
doesn't obviate the need for an OVP circuit. Even so, it does make it
simple to be able to install an electrical system that a Cessna driver
could operate without fear of damage.
Regards,
Matt-
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