---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/08/05: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:08 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 08/06/05 (ldodgesr@mmm.com) 2. 06:45 AM - Re: Re:Real data on OVP/etc (disinterested?) Bob (Chuck Jensen) 3. 08:36 AM - Re: Re:Real data on OVP/etc (disinterested?) (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 4. 12:56 PM - Re: New/rebuilt Alternators IGN wire () 5. 06:26 PM - Rotax (Bill Czygan) 6. 08:58 PM - Headset/Microphone jack bushings (John Swartout) 7. 09:14 PM - Re: Headset/Microphone jack bushings (Wayne Sweet) 8. 11:14 PM - Alternators, OVP, GMCJET, Eric, Paul. (DEAN PSIROPOULOS) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:19 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 6 Msgs - 08/06/05 From: ldodgesr@mmm.com 14, 2004) at 08/08/2005 08:06:45 AM --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: ldodgesr@mmm.com Personally, I like the format. It opens quickly with minimal internet facilities and you can get to the pictures and free downloads from Bob if you want them. What a great deal!!!!!!!!!! Larry H. Dodge ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:44 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re:Real data on OVP/etc (disinterested?) Bob From: "Chuck Jensen" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" Gerry, Why watch SNL when you can read Paul's posts instead. They are on the far side of wild--and sometimes rise to the level of just plain hilarious. To call them entertaining just doesn't give them their due, misspellings and all. Such expansive rants are rare and to be read with delight. And, I predict more in the future, despites promises of cessation. The only permanent cure would be a stiff shot of J.J. Kool Aid. Chuck Jensen Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gerry Holland Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re:Real data on OVP/etc (disinterested?) Bob --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland What was all that about! and what caused it? There is enough condescension here to make a person sick. Do us a favour and the bandwidth on this subject.... summarise it or go for a long walk! Do not archive .....it just isn't worth it! Gerry Holland ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:59 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re:Real data on OVP/etc (disinterested?) From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Just make sue the alternator has all the appropriate connections BEFORE starting the engine, and don't disconnect anything until after the engine has stopped. The way this is normally done in a car if the B lead is permanently connected to the battery and the field is switched on/off thru the ignition switch. That's why you get the red charge light come on when you first turn the ignition. This may be achieved the same way in the airplane (using Bob's Z figures) by connecting all the alternator connections to the engine side of the Master contactor, except in the case you have a means of disconnecting the whole alternator if the thing catches fire by turning off the master. By default batteries are always "ON" the alt gets connected thru the Master contactor and normally is not turned off until after the engine has stopped turning. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re:Real data on OVP/etc (disinterested?) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins --> > By using a normal procedure of manually switching the alternator ON > after starting and OFF before shut down, you forced an abrupt ON/OFF > thru the regulator. This is known to cause grief. (Read below-The IC > chip inside the alternator is a microprocessor and its internal > protections only work if it is powered during engine start and stop.) > ... ND alternators have an IC chip that provides many safety and fault > protection functions including OV protection. In fact this > microprocessor chip may have thousands of transistors VS. a > Plain-Jane external VR with 2 or 4 transistors. Therefore doing abrupt > things repeatedly stresses the chip overtime. It just was not designed > to be used like that. You got away with it for a while, but eventually > is started to fail (with out dramatic affect I might add). > I had not heard of this before. Are you saying that I should make sure the alternator is on whenever the batteries are on? -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:56:51 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: New/rebuilt Alternators IGN wire --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin: Good Point in the event of an electrical fire you need to turn off the system, excellent point. My comment that you would not want to turn a good alternator off in-flight should be modified to include, except in the case of a fire. However I think you need to remove BAT power as well. In some kit aircraft (and GA aircraft in general) the reliance on electrical power makes turning the master BAT off impossible because the engine will quit or the cockpit instruments will blank. Serious considerations must be made when planning for an electrically dependent engine and/or instruments. The only way is a separate electrical system (at least a battery) that drives the min critical items. How you parallel them (diode) is addressed in Bob's book. Electrical fire is one of the more serious checklist on a jet liner and the SwissAir tragedy illustrates how serious it can be. There are many many buss on a Jet. The checklist calls for you to manually turn off all less critical buss-es off (utility bus), after you put on O2 mask and goggles. That still does not mean the electrical fire will be extinguished, since items are still powered, especially in the cockpit. Than if needed you are told to FIND the source and pull individual breakers. Lets just say you pray you never have this situation. I don't know how many breakers I would get pulled, since I would be on the ground ASAP. In theory you could turn everything off (AC GENS) and fly on BAT power only, which means one stand-by AI (w/ loc/gs needles), AS and ALT, Radio/Nav, cockpit dome light and electric controls. All glass would be dead (unless you buy an option with extra batteries to keep the captains glass lit). Thanks George Time: 04:25:23 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: New/rebuilt Alternators IGN wire (Was: real data on ovp/etc) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton The only way to remove all electrical power in most archetures is to shut down the alternator and open the battery contactor. Even if you aren't worried about an OV event, you should consider the smoke in the cockpit case, as it could kill you, even if you are flying VFR. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:32 PM PST US From: Bill Czygan Subject: AeroElectric-List: Rotax --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bill Czygan I am interested in creating an electrical system for a Rotax 503 points ignition single carb engine. What changes from the system described on this list, would be required. The aircraft will be an open type aircraft so weatherproofing is important as well. Bill Czygan ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:58:30 PM PST US From: "John Swartout" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Headset/Microphone jack bushings --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout" Dear List: It seems that the jacks supplied with my intercom came without the flanged insulating bushings needed to ensure isolation from the metal airframe. Can someone suggest a source? John ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:59 PM PST US From: "Wayne Sweet" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Headset/Microphone jack bushings --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Wayne Sweet" I found a source and had to order 100. Send a prepaid envelope and I will slip as many as you need and return to you. Wayne Sweet 1520 Salinas Highway Monterey, Ca 93940 Oh, put a note to remind me what you need. I am a bit forgetful. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Swartout" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Headset/Microphone jack bushings > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Swartout" > > > Dear List: > > > It seems that the jacks supplied with my intercom came without the > flanged insulating bushings needed to ensure isolation from the metal > airframe. Can someone suggest a source? > > > John > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:34 PM PST US From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternators, OVP, GMCJET, Eric, Paul. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Ok GMCJET, Eric and Paul: You all seem to eluding to something just as good or better than what Bob has to offer with his externally regulated alternator and OVP. GREAT, why don't each of you explain your COMPLETE configurations (IN PLAIN ENGLISH) here on this list. That way, builders who are deep into the wiring stage can make up their minds and maybe save a little money? I'm currently in that stage and have been following this thread for a LONGGGGGG TIME hoping that SOMEONE would produce the new cheaper, better, simpler solution for the externally regulated and controlled alternator with OVP. I returned the IR alternator that Van's supplied with my firewall forward kit because of threads on this list. So far I haven't really heard anything that makes me want to buy it back. I HAVE TO DECIDE very soon now whether to go ahead with my decision to buy a B&C alternator and ER with OVP like I changed my mind to do. Do I WANT to spend $800 dollars for these two very common items that can be had in any autoparts store for hundreds less?! Hell no! I'd rather spend 1/3 that much and use the rest for avgas on my upcoming first flight. But this little bug keeps nagging at me and I don't want a runaway alternator taking out the $15,000.00 worth of electronic equipment in my panel (even if it is DO-160 certified). I know it happens only rarely but it DOES happen. I personally know of people who've had this occur in both aircraft and automobiles. All cases resulted in massive amounts of smoke behind the panel and expensive repair bills. So far I've heard bits and pieces from Mr. Messinger but there still seems to be more ranting than actual solutions from him and I'm beginning to wonder if he really wants to solve this problem. Eric Jones is not quite so antagonistic but sides with Paul, which is fine, if Paul has a solution that works. Eric has a reason to keep the information to himself though, and that is because of his business. He likes to take designs from everyone else, market them as his own and sell them at aviation high prices. That's fine too Eric, we're a capitalist society, BTW if you are going to sell the wig-wag that I supplied the design for (that I found in the public domain) why don't you cut me in for 10% of your take. It's not my design either but what the hell, you're doing it so why shouldn't I? Eric, if you and Paul are secretly collaborating on a new circuit design to solve the ER alternator and OVP "problem" (but really don't want to divulge the details because you want to sell it at outrageous prices later) but also want to keep us interested in the meantime, why not try a little less antagonism toward Bob and a bit more salesmanship? Do I think Bob is god, no I don't, but so far he has given me a lot more rationale for following his philosophy than the "antagonistic three" have. And speaking of the third antagonist, what bug crawled up your butt last night GMCJETpilot? COME ON GUYS, give me something that I can wire into my plane and have reasonable confidence that my expensive panel will be spared when the alternator runs off into high voltage failure mode! I think that's what most of us who've been putting up with this rant over the last year are waiting for with no-longer-so-baited breath. Unfortunately I can't hold my breath much longer and no one is forthcoming soooo, I'll likely end up spending a lot more money than I want to for that extra insurance. do not archive Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Schematics and wiring.