---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/24/05: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:27 AM - Switch label requirements (Matthew Brandes) 2. 07:19 AM - Re: Switch label requirements (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 3. 07:24 AM - Ammeter Shunt connection () 4. 07:49 AM - Re: Re: risks to battery for in situ (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 08:43 AM - Re: Switch label requirements (alan_products) 6. 08:45 AM - Re: Ammeter Shunt connection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 09:29 AM - Re: Ammeter Shunt connection (Matt Prather) 8. 09:58 AM - Re: Low System Voltage Troubleshooting (Dale Ensing) 9. 10:04 AM - Re: Ammeter Shunt connection (Werner Schneider) 10. 12:56 PM - Re: Switch label requirements (Eric M. Jones) 11. 01:15 PM - Re: Low System Voltage Troubleshooting (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 01:20 PM - Re: Ammeter Shunt connection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 01:39 PM - SNIMTA_SPAM Re (Dave Morris \) 14. 03:09 PM - Re: SNIMTA_SPAM Re (Greg Young) 15. 03:28 PM - Re: Ammeter Shunt connection (Matt Prather) 16. 03:33 PM - Re: Re: Switch label requirements (Kevin Horton) 17. 04:02 PM - Re: Re: Switch label requirements (Bruce Gray) 18. 06:23 PM - Re: Re: Switch label requirements (Dave Morris \) 19. 06:23 PM - Re: Switch label requirements (Eric M. Jones) 20. 08:14 PM - Ground-mode transponders (Fergus Kyle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:02 AM PST US From: "Matthew Brandes" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Switch label requirements --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matthew Brandes" Are there any requirements for labeling switches and other doo-dads on the panel? Do I have to label every switch with an On/Off? I'm a little space constrained for labels and just curious if there are any regulations about this. Matthew Brandes, Van's RV-9A (Wiring) #90569 http://www.n523rv.com EAA Chapter 1329 President EAA Chapter 868 Web Editor ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:24 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch label requirements --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 8/24/05 8:29:25 AM Central Daylight Time, matthew@n523rv.com writes: > Are there any requirements for labeling switches and other doo-dads on the > panel? Do I have to label every switch with an On/Off? I'm a little space > constrained for labels and just curious if there are any regulations about > this. >>> Sorta depends on your DAR- mine required function and ON/OFF labels for everything (with some minor exceptions) and did allow liberal use of tape with the labels written with a Sharpie for those I'd omitted- ditto for tail # on panel, baggage capacity etc, and don't forget a compass correction card. I did have "ON" engraved above my main switch row with a line that extended in either direction to end of switches, which was OK for him, but I had to add several "OFF" labels below. Luckily I'd purchased a large sheet of stick-on labels from Spruce which sufficed for a lot of items. All of the "temporaries" now replaced with some really tiny stick on labels made on a Brother label printer. I have seen some panels on Experimentals with darn near nothing labelled, however. Best to check with your DAR before his appointment! Mark Phillips ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:27 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ammeter Shunt connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <> 8/24/2005 Hello Bob Nuckolls, You seem to be implying above that a shunt arrangement is the preferred way to measure amperage coming out of an alternator and a hall effect device is the preferred way to measure amperage flowing into or out of a battery. Is that correct? Is it OK to also use a hall effect device to measure current flowing out of an alternator? Can a shunt be rigged to show amperage both flowing into and out of a battery? Thank you. OC ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:43 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" recharging Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: risks to battery for in situ recharging --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" recharging At 02:16 PM 8/23/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Craig P. Steffen" > > > > significant risks. I'm mystified as to the mechanism by which > > a "dead" battery kills an alternator given the inherent current > > limiting features of an alternator. Given what I understand about > > alternators right now, I can't give the admonition any credence. > >Would it be possible that a battery be old and discharged enough to >draw enough current that the alternator _cannot_ maintain a reasonable >system voltage within its maximum rated output? I don't actually >know, I'm just wondering. The battery doesn't have to be "old" . . . a brand new, totally discharged battery placed across a well-spun alternator will cause the alternator to go to full output which will be split between battery recharge current and system running loads for whatever is turned on. An alternator in the aviation business is rated for continuous operation at nameplate rated output under worst case conditions for cooling. This means that to certify the installation, you must DEMONSTRATE adequate cooling under hot-day, extended climb at Vx with alternator loaded to the nameplate rating. Whether this output current is demanded by a discharged battery or a kilowatt stereo system is transparent to the alternator. For a systems manufacturer to place limitations on alternator expectations suggests a tacit if not overt admission that the alternator as installed is marginally cooled. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:04 AM PST US From: alan_products Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch label requirements --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: alan_products I just looked up the marking rules in parts 23.1541 - 23.1567, but the switch labeling requirements are pretty vague. If you don't already have it bookmarked, the regs are out on http://www.airweb.faa.gov under 'regulations and policies', 'regulations and guidance library', 'federal aviation regulations'. (sheesh!) According to the regs, I need enough placards to eliminate the need for interior paint! ;-) -Alan Erickson --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 8/24/05 8:29:25 AM Central Daylight Time, matthew@n523rv.com writes: > Are there any requirements for labeling switches and other doo-dads on the > panel? Do I have to label every switch with an On/Off? I'm a little space > constrained for labels and just curious if there are any regulations about > this. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:54 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ammeter Shunt connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:24 AM 8/24/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > > AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > < answer is install shunts as shown in Z-figures, not chapter 7. > If you believe a battery ammeter is useful to you, use a hall > effect device. Bob . . .>> > >8/24/2005 > >Hello Bob Nuckolls, You seem to be implying above that a shunt arrangement >is the preferred way to measure amperage coming out of an alternator and a >hall effect device is the preferred way to measure amperage flowing into or >out of a battery. Is that correct? One can "prefer" any number and type of instrumentation they wish. Electrical system instrumentation has (since day-one) been relied upon for making pilot aware of alternator failures. Such displays are NOT good warning devices. Active notification of low voltage (flashing light) is the best method of getting the pilot's attention. Beyond this simple notification, classic implementation of ammeters and voltmeters are ONLY useful for system diagnosis on the ground and do not help you operate the airplane. Given that most troubleshooting operations will dictate lots of voltage, resistance and current measurements not displayed on panel instruments. The logical conclusion is that you'll never get all the data you need to know from panel mounted displays. If you need to get out test equipment to do the whole job . . . the it follows that whatever you plan to display on the panel is a toss-up. You can choose to display LOTS of data or NO data without materially influencing the outcome of flight after being notified that a failure has occurred. Similarly, the number and kind of panel displays for electrical parameters will not materially affect efforts required to diagnose and fix the problem on the ground. >Is it OK to also use a hall effect device to measure current flowing out of >an alternator? You bet. >Can a shunt be rigged to show amperage both flowing into and out of a >battery? Sure . . . cars did it for decades, so did airplanes. However, the battery-ammeter architecture requires that you bring the alternator b-lead into the cockpit. It was a design goal early on to leave it forward of the firewall and tie it into the system by way of the starter contactor. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:29:14 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ammeter Shunt connection From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Hi Bob, Question below: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > At 10:24 AM 8/24/2005 -0400, you wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >> >> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, >> III" >> >> snip > >>Can a shunt be rigged to show amperage both flowing into and out of a >> battery? > > Sure . . . cars did it for decades, so did airplanes. However, > the battery-ammeter architecture requires that you bring the > alternator b-lead into the cockpit. It was a design goal early > on to leave it forward of the firewall and tie it into the system by > way of the starter contactor. > Wait a minute... I think I missed something. A shunt can be remote mounted to drive a display that's on the panel, in the cockpit, right? > Bob . . . > > Just trying to keep up with the stuff I thought I knew... :) Matt- VE N34RD, C150 N714BK ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:58:31 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Low System Voltage Troubleshooting --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" As an experiment, try measuring voltage right at the b-lead terminal. If it's 14.2 to 14.8, then you have excessive voltage drop in wiring. If it's low there too, then I suspect the regulator in the alternator is bad. Just for grins, if your alternator has an "S" lead, try hooking this to the bus through some temporary wire and see what the bus voltage does with the external sense option. Does the data sheet for your alternator talk about an "S" lead and perhaps how to use it? Bob . . . No "S" lead on the internal regulated alt. Just an"IGN" terminal. Understand the IGN lead is not for field input or voltage level sensing. Would you please explain the function of the IGN lead? Is it to supply initial power to the electronic devices in the regulator to start the alt ? My apologies if you have done this in prior postings. Dale E do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:04:28 AM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ammeter Shunt connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider >>>Can a shunt be rigged to show amperage both flowing into and out of a >>>battery? >>> >>> >> Sure . . . cars did it for decades, so did airplanes. However, >> the battery-ammeter architecture requires that you bring the >> alternator b-lead into the cockpit. It was a design goal early >> on to leave it forward of the firewall and tie it into the system by >>way of the starter contactor. >> >> >> > >Wait a minute... I think I missed something. A shunt can be remote >mounted to drive a display that's on the panel, in the cockpit, right? > > > >correct, but to show ampere in/out it has to be in the feed line between battery and consumers, the alternator starter contactor connection is not. > > Werner ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:53 PM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch label requirements --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matthew Brandes" > Are there any requirements for labeling switches and other doo-dads on the > panel? Do I have to label every switch with an On/Off? I'm a little > space > constrained for labels and just curious if there are any regulations about > this. Now try to follow my logic here.... Is it a really a switch if it does not have a label? How about if it doesn't have an actuator? If the switch is not connected to the circuit...is it still a switch? I read a story once where a TV repair man diagnosed a TV set where the owners were putting quarters ( 25-cent coins) into an air opening in the TV. This shorted a broken foil on a circuit board and made the TV work. When the circuit board heated up, the quarter would drop into the bottom of the box and the TV would shut off. Of course the ON-OFF switch did nothing. The repair man fixed the TV for the accumulated quarters. Question--should the slot have been labeled? Come on Matthew! Flying is hard enough without unlabeled switches. Airplanes crash all the time because someone pulls the cabin heat when they mean to pull the carb heat. People push on the gas pedal in a car when they mean to push on the brake. Life is hard, flying is dangerous...don't add to the confusion. Label the switches. I mentioned a couple months ago that decalomanias (water slide decals) can be made with an inkjet printer. Just Google it. You can even buy inks for your injet that--- a) Glow in the dark b) Glow brightly in UV c) Change color with temperature. d) Are invisible (for those who REALLY have too much time on their hands). These make great switch labels and even placards and fancy insignias. With a little care and acrylic overspray, they look silkscreened. A truly "enabling" technology for the home builder. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 (508) 764-2072 When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that individual is crazy. --Dave Barry ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:56 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Low System Voltage Troubleshooting --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:58 PM 8/24/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" > > > As an experiment, try measuring voltage right at the b-lead > terminal. If it's 14.2 to 14.8, then you have excessive voltage > drop in wiring. If it's low there too, then I suspect the regulator > in the alternator is bad. Just for grins, if your alternator has > an "S" lead, try hooking this to the bus through some temporary > wire and see what the bus voltage does with the external sense > option. Does the data sheet for your alternator talk about an > "S" lead and perhaps how to use it? > > Bob . . . > >No "S" lead on the internal regulated alt. Just an"IGN" terminal. >Understand the IGN lead is not for field input or voltage level sensing. >Would you please explain the function of the IGN lead? Is it to supply >initial power to the electronic devices in the regulator to start the alt ? >My apologies if you have done this in prior postings. For the vast majority of internally regulated alternators the IGN lead is for rudimentary control only . . . and it may or may not be able to turn an alternator off once it's been turned on. If you don't have an "S" lead, then all voltage sense is done at the b-lead terminal with no other options. Measure voltage of the operating alternator from b-lead to case ground. Report your findings here and we'll go to the next step for isolating the cause of symptoms you've cited above. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:20:15 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ammeter Shunt connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:26 AM 8/24/2005 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" > >Hi Bob, > >Question below: > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > > > > At 10:24 AM 8/24/2005 -0400, you wrote: > > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > >> > >> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, > >> III" > >> > >> > >snip > > > > >>Can a shunt be rigged to show amperage both flowing into and out of a > >> battery? > > > > Sure . . . cars did it for decades, so did airplanes. However, > > the battery-ammeter architecture requires that you bring the > > alternator b-lead into the cockpit. It was a design goal early > > on to leave it forward of the firewall and tie it into the system by > > way of the starter contactor. > > > >Wait a minute... I think I missed something. A shunt can be remote >mounted to drive a display that's on the panel, in the cockpit, right? This isn't about the shunt, it's about how the ammeter functions. For it to be a minus-zero-plus reading ammeter, the instrument (or it's shunt) needs to reside in the battery feeder -AND- you need to bring the b-lead to the bus. See figure 7-11 and 7-12 in the 'Connection but ignore Figure 7-13 as a poor idea which will be eliminated at the next revision. Van's ammeter is a battery discharge-o-charge style device and must be wired per 7-11 as in most older Cessnas and per his wiring instructions. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:39:33 PM PST US From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Subject: AeroElectric-List: SNIMTA_SPAM Re --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Eric, My personal pet peeve is that little "row of identical switches" down under the yoke of most C-172s and similar, where you have to crane your neck down to find the strobe light switch or the avionics master or the nav lights. In the automotive world, you don't need a label on your windshield wiper switch or your horn switch or your window switch, because they have been designed with application-specific form factors. The landing gear switch in an airplane looks like a wheel. What if we made the strobe light switch look different from the landing light switch so you could tell which one you were toggling "by feel" instead of having to read a label while trying to fly the plane? Dave Morris At 02:55 PM 8/24/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matthew Brandes" > > > > Are there any requirements for labeling switches and other doo-dads on the > > panel? Do I have to label every switch with an On/Off? I'm a little > > space > > constrained for labels and just curious if there are any regulations about > > this. > >Now try to follow my logic here.... > >Is it a really a switch if it does not have a label? How about if it doesn't >have an actuator? If the switch is not connected to the circuit...is it >still a switch? > >I read a story once where a TV repair man diagnosed a TV set where the >owners were putting quarters ( 25-cent coins) into an air opening in the TV. >This shorted a broken foil on a circuit board and made the TV work. When the >circuit board heated up, the quarter would drop into the bottom of the box >and the TV would shut off. Of course the ON-OFF switch did nothing. The >repair man fixed the TV for the accumulated quarters. > >Question--should the slot have been labeled? > >Come on Matthew! Flying is hard enough without unlabeled switches. Airplanes >crash all the time because someone pulls the cabin heat when they mean to >pull the carb heat. People push on the gas pedal in a car when they mean to >push on the brake. Life is hard, flying is dangerous...don't add to the >confusion. Label the switches. > >I mentioned a couple months ago that decalomanias (water slide decals) can >be made with an inkjet printer. Just Google it. You can even buy inks for >your injet that--- > >a) Glow in the dark >b) Glow brightly in UV >c) Change color with temperature. >d) Are invisible (for those who REALLY have too much time on their hands). > >These make great switch labels and even placards and fancy insignias. With a >little care and acrylic overspray, they look silkscreened. A truly >"enabling" technology for the home builder. > >Regards, >Eric M. Jones >www.PerihelionDesign.com >113 Brentwood Drive >Southbridge MA 01550-2705 >(508) 764-2072 > >When trouble arises and things look bad, >there is always one individual who perceives >a solution and is willing to take command. >Very often, that individual is crazy. > --Dave Barry > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:50 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: SNIMTA_SPAM Re From: "Greg Young" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Young" There's lots of room for improvement. Tactile discrimination is a good thing but even in the automotive world it doesn't cover everything - consider your radio and heater-A/C controls. Positional differentiation is is my choice. With some thought you can logically group the switches and provide separation between the groups so you can find the group by feel. I'm putting the "important" switches in easy to find positions, e.g. e-bus, landing lights at edges of groups, flaps and boost separate and by the throttle and mixture. The concept is not mine and not new - I think it came from Bob's book but it even appears in autos, e.g. power window & door lock groupings. That's the beauty of OBAM, you can follow whatever scheme suits your needs. Greg Young ________________________________ --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Eric, My personal pet peeve is that little "row of identical switches" down under the yoke of most C-172s and similar, where you have to crane your neck down to find the strobe light switch or the avionics master or the nav lights. In the automotive world, you don't need a label on your windshield wiper switch or your horn switch or your window switch, because they have been designed with application-specific form factors. The landing gear switch in an airplane looks like a wheel. What if we made the strobe light switch look different from the landing light switch so you could tell which one you were toggling "by feel" instead of having to read a label while trying to fly the plane? Dave Morris ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ammeter Shunt connection From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Oh, okay.. It seems like the implied goal is to not run the starting currents through the ammeter shunt because it will tend to slap an analog meter pretty hard when the starter is cycled. Didn't we discuss this a few years ago, and decide that it probably woudn't actually hurt the meter to bang the needle against the stop? If that's not so good, it seems like we could put in a little circuit which when enabled by the starter circuit would drop the voltage at being fed from the shunt to reduce abuse to the meter. In either case, the shunt can be in the main feed from the battery. The hall effect idea is better. Actually, a flashing light would be better still... Well... Wait another minute.. I have a thought. You say that diagnosing electrical problems should be reserved for after you are on the ground. I can't argue with that. However, I posit that on a new OBAM airplane, it may be rather practical to build in a little extra instrumentation (and leave it aboard) than would be installed in a design-debugged production airplane. What say you? Regards, Matt- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > At 10:26 AM 8/24/2005 -0600, you wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" >> >> >>Hi Bob, >> >>Question below: >> >> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >> >> > >> > At 10:24 AM 8/24/2005 -0400, you wrote: >> > >> >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >> >> >> >> AeroElectric-List message previously posted by: "Robert L. >> Nuckolls, >> >> III" >> >> >> >> >> >>snip >> >> > >> >>Can a shunt be rigged to show amperage both flowing into and out of >> a >> >> battery? >> > >> > Sure . . . cars did it for decades, so did airplanes. However, >> the battery-ammeter architecture requires that you bring the >> alternator b-lead into the cockpit. It was a design goal early on >> to leave it forward of the firewall and tie it into the system by >> > way of the starter contactor. >> > >> >>Wait a minute... I think I missed something. A shunt can be remote >> mounted to drive a display that's on the panel, in the cockpit, right? > > This isn't about the shunt, it's about how the ammeter functions. For > it to be a minus-zero-plus reading ammeter, the instrument (or it's > shunt) needs to reside in the battery feeder -AND- you need to bring > the b-lead to the bus. See figure 7-11 and 7-12 in the 'Connection > but ignore Figure 7-13 as a poor idea which will be eliminated at the > next revision. > > Van's ammeter is a battery discharge-o-charge style device and > must be wired per 7-11 as in most older Cessnas and per his > wiring instructions. > > Bob . . . > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:30 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch label requirements --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton On 24 Aug 2005, at 11:42, alan_products wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: alan_products > > > I just looked up the marking rules in parts 23.1541 - 23.1567, but > the switch labeling requirements are pretty vague. If you don't > already have it bookmarked, the regs are out on http:// > www.airweb.faa.gov under 'regulations and policies', 'regulations > and guidance library', 'federal aviation regulations'. (sheesh!) > According to the regs, I need enough placards to eliminate the need > for interior paint! ;-) > Have a look at FAR 23.1 - Applicability. (a) This part prescribes airworthiness standards for the issue of type certificates, and changes to those certificates, for airplanes in the normal, utility, acrobatic, and commuter categories. FAR 23.1541 23.1567 do not apply to your RV, unless they are specifically called up by some other requirement. However, I do agree that any switch that may be needed in flight or ground operations, or any switch whose use in the wrong circumstances could cause a hazard, should be labelled. It is only common sense. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:13 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch label requirements --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" I've been through all this with my ABDAR and the Tech counselors at OSH. In essence, if it's labeled in the certified world, the FAA want it labeled on our panels. I asked for supporting FAR's to sustain that position and was told, 'There are none'. That's the way it's always been and that's what all the DAR's will expect. The point of contention that brought this to me was my DAR'S insistence that I mark my TPM controls with labels. Long discussion with lots of FAR books. Only found one reference to TPM controls, that being shape, size and color. My DAR backed down and said OK. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch label requirements --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton On 24 Aug 2005, at 11:42, alan_products wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: alan_products > > > I just looked up the marking rules in parts 23.1541 - 23.1567, but > the switch labeling requirements are pretty vague. If you don't > already have it bookmarked, the regs are out on http:// > www.airweb.faa.gov under 'regulations and policies', 'regulations > and guidance library', 'federal aviation regulations'. (sheesh!) > According to the regs, I need enough placards to eliminate the need > for interior paint! ;-) > Have a look at FAR 23.1 - Applicability. (a) This part prescribes airworthiness standards for the issue of type certificates, and changes to those certificates, for airplanes in the normal, utility, acrobatic, and commuter categories. FAR 23.1541 23.1567 do not apply to your RV, unless they are specifically called up by some other requirement. However, I do agree that any switch that may be needed in flight or ground operations, or any switch whose use in the wrong circumstances could cause a hazard, should be labelled. It is only common sense. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:42 PM PST US From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch label requirements --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Here's the extreme on labeling the throttle. Even the friction lock is labeled: http://www.davemorris.com/Photos/Dragonfly%20Controls/F-100%20Throttle%20With%207lbs%20Junk%20Removed.jpg Off an F-100 and onto a Dragonfly :) Dave Morris At 06:03 PM 8/24/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > >I've been through all this with my ABDAR and the Tech counselors at OSH. In >essence, if it's labeled in the certified world, the FAA want it labeled on >our panels. I asked for supporting FAR's to sustain that position and was >told, 'There are none'. That's the way it's always been and that's what all >the DAR's will expect. > >The point of contention that brought this to me was my DAR'S insistence that >I mark my TPM controls with labels. Long discussion with lots of FAR books. >Only found one reference to TPM controls, that being shape, size and color. >My DAR backed down and said OK. > >Bruce >www.glasair.org > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin >Horton >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Switch label requirements > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton > >On 24 Aug 2005, at 11:42, alan_products wrote: > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: alan_products > > > > > > I just looked up the marking rules in parts 23.1541 - 23.1567, but > > the switch labeling requirements are pretty vague. If you don't > > already have it bookmarked, the regs are out on http:// > > www.airweb.faa.gov under 'regulations and policies', 'regulations > > and guidance library', 'federal aviation regulations'. (sheesh!) > > According to the regs, I need enough placards to eliminate the need > > for interior paint! ;-) > > > >Have a look at FAR 23.1 - Applicability. >(a) This part prescribes airworthiness standards for the issue of >type certificates, and changes to those certificates, for airplanes >in the normal, utility, acrobatic, and commuter categories. > >FAR 23.1541 23.1567 do not apply to your RV, unless they are >specifically called up by some other requirement. However, I do >agree that any switch that may be needed in flight or ground >operations, or any switch whose use in the wrong circumstances could >cause a hazard, should be labelled. It is only common sense. > >Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) >Ottawa, Canada >http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:47 PM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: re: Switch label requirements --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Young" >There's lots of room for improvement. Tactile discrimination is a good >thing but >even in the automotive world it doesn't cover everything - consider your >radio >and heater-A/C controls. Positional differentiation is is my choice. With >some >thought you can logically group the switches and provide separation between >the groups so you can find the group by feel. I'm putting the "important" >switches >in easy to find positions, e.g. e-bus, landing lights at edges of groups, >flaps and boost separate and by the throttle and mixture. The concept is >not >mine and not new - I think it came from Bob's book but it even appears in >autos, >e.g. power window & door lock groupings. That's the beauty of OBAM, you can >follow whatever scheme suits your needs.Greg Young --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" BigD@DaveMorris.com >My personal pet peeve is that little "row of identical switches" down under >the yoke of most C-172s and similar, where you have to crane your neck down >to find the strobe light switch or the avionics master or the nav lights. >In the automotive world, you don't need a label on your windshield wiper >switch or your horn switch or your window switch, because they have been >designed with application-specific form factors. The landing gear switch >in an airplane looks like a wheel. What if we made the strobe light switch >look different from the landing light switch so you could tell which one >you were toggling "by feel" instead of having to read a label while trying >to fly the plane? Dave Morris Dave and Greg, I am working on a technical paper regarding design of instrument panels. Actually, I've been working on it all my life. There is an infinitude of horrid design out there. There are preposterous design sins which people just follow because they think that "the way it has been done" is the right way. The GOOD news is that commercial jets really do have the panel design thing done very well. You don't have to make your panel look like one in an A340 Airbus, but you should take from their design some important lessons. Like--- 1) Symmetry is the last resort of the totally untalented. 2) Putting switches or lights in long rows is brain-dead design. 3) Study the mind-boggling functional MOMO instrument panel for a Ferrari grand prix racecar. 4) Know that bad design is everywhere and it kills people. 5) Dissuade yourself from thinking YOU are at fault when you can't figure out which way the credit card goes into the swipe slot. Bad design is everywhere. There were EIGHT ways to put a 5 1/4 inch diskette into A: drive and only one of them worked. Remember? Read Ricardo A. Price, in Kitplanes Dec95 and Jan96 and Feb96. I pore over this stuff. I even have "Confusion in the Cockpit" from 1948 on the subject. But every time I want to make any comment on the subject I review Price's articles and am re-impressed. I highly recommend getting the back issues from Kitplanes (on line) if you have an interest in the subject. It's a real keeper. ps--Ricardo, can I get your email address? http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/avionics_electronics/7273-1.phtml http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/avionics_electronics/7272-1.phtml http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/avionics_electronics/7271-1.phtml Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 (508) 764-2072 "I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it." ---Clint Eastwood ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:36 PM PST US From: "Fergus Kyle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Ground-mode transponders --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" ATC agents are there to prevent dots from coming together. They do it in many ingenious and cunning ways. They do not provide the service for which they are hired by inventing new and unexpected use of other devices, However, there is a growing fear in the European sphere of influence to believe that they will use the transponder to record and tax aircraft on the time they inhabit 'national' airspace. I believe that the original use of the transponder should be restricted to the moral standard of keeping the dots apart - and no other. All the governments in the world cannot force a an earthwide group to conform to immoral requirements. ATC is there to achieve separation standards - they are not professors, cops or critics - and all the funny jokes about stupid pilots (aviators, fliers) won't change the facts. My machine is designed to provide separation limits in the air and cannot satisfy every whim. Ferg Kyle Do not archive