Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:22 AM - Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 11:33 AM - dimming a Whelen LED post light (Jeff Hildebrand)
3. 11:53 AM - Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator Flap (Mickey Coggins)
4. 12:04 PM - Re: Ammeter Shunt connection (Speedy11@aol.com)
5. 12:19 PM - Re: Re: Ammeter Shunt connection (Dww0708@aol.com)
6. 12:50 PM - Re: Re: Ammeter Shunt connection (Dave Morris \)
7. 02:07 PM - Re: dimming a Whelen LED post light (jmtipton)
8. 03:53 PM - Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator (Guy Buchanan)
9. 03:55 PM - Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator (Guy Buchanan)
10. 06:36 PM - Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 06:39 PM - Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 09:14 PM - Re: Re: Ammeter Shunt connection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 09:14 PM - Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Thermostatically Controlled Radiator |
Flap
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Flap
At 01:17 AM 8/26/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle"
><mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
>
>
> > Set up op amp and power transistors to drive servo such that
> > door is fully open at max operating and just starts to crack
> > at some point just above normal cruise temps. I can develop
> > a schematic and bill of materials if you need it.
>
>ROFLOL. You think about electronics the way I think about structures.
>Unfortunately, though I understand what you said, it would take me a year
>to figure out what is so painfully obvious to you! I would therefore be
>ENTIRELY GRATEFUL if you would send me an estimate for what it would take
>to have you put together a schematic and BoM. Of course, if the
>installation's going to cost $1200 I might be somewhat less enthusiastic,
>but I'd still be interested in hearing about it. And who knows, if it works
>well enough I might interest a slew of other 2-stroke users as well.
I sat down last night and began to sift through the
box of applicable tinker-toys and craft a minimum
parts count, discrete component solution. By the time
I was half way through the exercise, I was stuck by
the notion that this was exactly the way I would
have done it 30 years ago . . . indeed, it was not
far off the mark for components and techniques
I suggested 40 years ago. By the time I'd considered
all the ramifications of failed sensors and other
failure mode effects analysis along with performance
issues that dealt with accuracy and error budgets
the task was getting pretty "messy" . . . I hadn't
even started to consider a reasonable DIY packaging
scheme.
There are any number of jellybean microcontrollers
that will do this job with 1/10th the parts while
offering logical and REPROGRAMMABLE performance
capabilities that are very difficult with discrete
components. I'm working a program on one of our
aircraft where an already complex system was
implemented in discretes to avoid software
certification issues. We have $millions$ tied up
in IR&D and now $millions$ are flowing out on
warranty and customer dissatisfaction issues while
folks who made the original decisions are turning
blue trying to band-aid the system into some
semblance of acceptable.
We're finally going to get a chance to redesign
the circuitry but were stuck with some gawd-awful
packaging. With that experience in mind, the
discrete approach to a 2-cycle, cooling air
controller came to a screeching halt as of 11:43
last night. This was NOT the best we know how to do.
Is there anyone on the list who can wrangle
the PIC series microcontrollers from Microchip?
I have the development systems but just don't
have time to add this to a long list of higher
priority projects. I can spend the time to craft
a schematic, bill of materials and write the
software requirements but I'm going to need some
help to write and debug the software.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | dimming a Whelen LED post light |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeff Hildebrand" <jhildebrand@crownequip.com>
I have a Whelen LED post light on the instrument panel of my Lancair (14V,
20ma, Part#01-0770844-00).
It is too bright for my application. I would like to dim it by about half.
Can I put a resistor in series with the power lead?
I have read old archives about current limited resistors, but I'm not sure
how to deal with a post light that you just connect 14 volts to. It must
have an internal current limiting resistor built into it, but I don't want
to disassemble it, I would just like to put a resistor in series.
Can someone tell me how to do this?
Thanks,
Jeff Hildebrand
Lancair ES C-GSPH
www.lancaires.com <http://www.lancaires.com/>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator Flap |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> Is there anyone on the list who can wrangle
> the PIC series microcontrollers from Microchip?
> I have the development systems but just don't
> have time to add this to a long list of higher
> priority projects. I can spend the time to craft
> a schematic, bill of materials and write the
> software requirements but I'm going to need some
> help to write and debug the software.
>
> Bob . . .
Here is the actuator I plan to use in my subaru installation:
http://www.dcactuators.com/Detail.asp?Product_ID=301.200_6176E
According to the data sheet, it has [a] "potentiometer built in
for actuator positioning (use your microcontroller to determine
and precisely control actuator positioning)"
I hope you find a volunteer! :-) I'd love to do it, but I
want to get my airplane flying this year. Really!
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
Bob,
I have to disagree. His cart is not ahead of the horse. He is suggesting
that as we build an airplane, we build in the diagnostic equipment necessary to
analyse the electrical system. I have to agree with that concept. And your
answer indicates you advocate building in diagnostic equipment as well.
In your final paragraph, you said doing the diagnostics on the ground "saves
weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around instruments that never
help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access to such data for diagnosis
when necessary." However, the sensors will be installed whether used on the
ground or in the air, so no weight or money is saved. The sensors can be
connected for display on the engine monitor that is already going to be on board,
so no weight or savings there.
I am one who likes to have as much information as I desire while analysing an
airborne situation. So, I prefer to have the voltage and load at numerous
places throughout the electrical system. Perhaps I am so ignorant of
electricity that I don't even know what I'm seeing on the readings, but I still
want to
see them.
So, if that is our desire, rather than trying to convince us that we don't
need the information displayed, how about helping us determine the best methods
to achieve our goals - that is, display of desired system indications.
We aren't necessarily looking for a philosophical disccussion on why an
alternator ammeter is better or worse or more useful/less useful than a battery
ammeter. We are simply asking how to accomplish what we want to achieve.
I don't know how much weight or cost it will add to my project to be able to
monitor the electrons at the alternator, main bus, standby bus, battery bus,
main battery, standby battery, etc. And I don't care - I just want to know how
best to do it.
Stan Sutterfield
However, I posit that on a new
OBAM airplane, it may be rather practical to build in a little extra
instrumentation (and leave it aboard) than would be installed in a
design-debugged production airplane. What say you?
Your cart is way ahead of the horse. Decide first how a battery
ammeter is "better" than any other form of ammeter . . . i.e. will
ANY form of ammeter help you deal with a particular failure mode
and how would your write a procedure to that explains what to do
when presented with various kinds of "data" from the ammeter? Is
this data even useful in flight? Would it be better to have a pre-planned,
easily executed transition from plan-A to plan-B and simply leave
all the systems management until later?
Not all design goals are compatible with each other. If you want
the b-lead out of the cockpit, then battery ammeters are in the real-hard
pile. There are many airplanes flying with alternator loadmeters
(Cessnas and misc) and many flying with alternator loadmeters (Pipers,
Beechcraft, etc). . . Is one "better" than the other? If so, does
"goodness" of the battery ammeter compel you to strive for a way to
implement it along with b-leads taken out of the cockpit? Keep in mind
that hall effect devices hit with high surge currents can take on a small
"set" in reading that appears as an offset from zero. Usually
limited to a percent or so of full scale but it bugs some folks
to see non-zero readings of any kind when stuff is shut off. So
running 200A starter current through a sensor which you'd like to
have .1 amp resolution and perhaps .1 amp accuracy over the range
of 0-60 amps is, perhaps, not a good idea either.
The automotive diagnostics philosophy is to install sensors and
taps for measuring system parameters and bringing those out to
a diagnostics connector. Using the same idea, we could install
loadmeter shunts, field circuit shunts, and voltage sense
taps off all busses, batteries, field terminals and perhaps
add some sensors for other data like alternator stator and
diode thermocouples, oil temp, thermocouples on all cylinder
heads, etc.
You would mount the connector so that it could be accessed
easily on the ground for maintenance diagnostics and perhaps
even used in the air for temporarily installed instrumentation.
This saves weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around instruments
that never help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access
to such data for diagnosis when necessary. As you've noted,
it's easiest to install these features when the airplane is
under construction than later.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dww0708@aol.com
The big picture, Fit Form Function. Reliability in aviation Rock on
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
I was planning elaborate diagnostic instrumentation for my Dragonfly, with
voltmeter test points and ammeters all over the place.
Then I went flying again. While approaching my airport, I realized that if
something hiccupped, if I saw a wisp of smoke, if a warning light went on,
I would just not have the bandwidth to start imagining the schematic
diagram of the electrical system and start flipping switches and taking
voltmeter readings. I would just want to throw a switch and know that
there is now a 2 hour countdown to landing in progress or something like
that. The exact nature of the problem can be best diagnosed on the ground.
That having been said, I do think it's a good idea to plan ahead for the
need to diagnose things on the ground and provide/label test points,
annotate your schematic with voltage references and things like that.
Dave Morris
At 02:04 PM 8/26/2005, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
>
>Bob,
>I have to disagree. His cart is not ahead of the horse. He is suggesting
>that as we build an airplane, we build in the diagnostic equipment
>necessary to
>analyse the electrical system. I have to agree with that concept. And your
>answer indicates you advocate building in diagnostic equipment as well.
>In your final paragraph, you said doing the diagnostics on the ground "saves
>weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around instruments that never
>help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access to such data for
>diagnosis
>when necessary." However, the sensors will be installed whether used on the
>ground or in the air, so no weight or money is saved. The sensors can be
>connected for display on the engine monitor that is already going to be on
>board,
>so no weight or savings there.
>I am one who likes to have as much information as I desire while analysing an
>airborne situation. So, I prefer to have the voltage and load at numerous
>places throughout the electrical system. Perhaps I am so ignorant of
>electricity that I don't even know what I'm seeing on the readings, but I
>still want to
>see them.
>So, if that is our desire, rather than trying to convince us that we don't
>need the information displayed, how about helping us determine the best
>methods
>to achieve our goals - that is, display of desired system indications.
>We aren't necessarily looking for a philosophical disccussion on why an
>alternator ammeter is better or worse or more useful/less useful than a
>battery
>ammeter. We are simply asking how to accomplish what we want to achieve.
>I don't know how much weight or cost it will add to my project to be able to
>monitor the electrons at the alternator, main bus, standby bus, battery bus,
>main battery, standby battery, etc. And I don't care - I just want to
>know how
>best to do it.
>Stan Sutterfield
>
>However, I posit that on a new
>OBAM airplane, it may be rather practical to build in a little extra
>instrumentation (and leave it aboard) than would be installed in a
>design-debugged production airplane. What say you?
>
> Your cart is way ahead of the horse. Decide first how a battery
> ammeter is "better" than any other form of ammeter . . . i.e. will
> ANY form of ammeter help you deal with a particular failure mode
> and how would your write a procedure to that explains what to do
> when presented with various kinds of "data" from the ammeter? Is
> this data even useful in flight? Would it be better to have a
> pre-planned,
> easily executed transition from plan-A to plan-B and simply leave
> all the systems management until later?
>
> Not all design goals are compatible with each other. If you want
> the b-lead out of the cockpit, then battery ammeters are in the real-hard
> pile. There are many airplanes flying with alternator loadmeters
> (Cessnas and misc) and many flying with alternator loadmeters (Pipers,
> Beechcraft, etc). . . Is one "better" than the other? If so, does
> "goodness" of the battery ammeter compel you to strive for a way to
> implement it along with b-leads taken out of the cockpit? Keep in mind
> that hall effect devices hit with high surge currents can take on a small
> "set" in reading that appears as an offset from zero. Usually
> limited to a percent or so of full scale but it bugs some folks
> to see non-zero readings of any kind when stuff is shut off. So
> running 200A starter current through a sensor which you'd like to
> have .1 amp resolution and perhaps .1 amp accuracy over the range
> of 0-60 amps is, perhaps, not a good idea either.
>
> The automotive diagnostics philosophy is to install sensors and
> taps for measuring system parameters and bringing those out to
> a diagnostics connector. Using the same idea, we could install
> loadmeter shunts, field circuit shunts, and voltage sense
> taps off all busses, batteries, field terminals and perhaps
> add some sensors for other data like alternator stator and
> diode thermocouples, oil temp, thermocouples on all cylinder
> heads, etc.
>
> You would mount the connector so that it could be accessed
> easily on the ground for maintenance diagnostics and perhaps
> even used in the air for temporarily installed instrumentation.
> This saves weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around
> instruments
> that never help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access
> to such data for diagnosis when necessary. As you've noted,
> it's easiest to install these features when the airplane is
> under construction than later.
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: dimming a Whelen LED post light |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "jmtipton" <jmtipton@btopenworld.com>
Yes: Cut the wire and place another resister in series
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Hildebrand" <jhildebrand@crownequip.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: dimming a Whelen LED post light
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jeff Hildebrand"
> <jhildebrand@crownequip.com>
>
> I have a Whelen LED post light on the instrument panel of my Lancair (14V,
> 20ma, Part#01-0770844-00).
>
>
> It is too bright for my application. I would like to dim it by about
> half.
> Can I put a resistor in series with the power lead?
>
>
> I have read old archives about current limited resistors, but I'm not sure
> how to deal with a post light that you just connect 14 volts to. It must
> have an internal current limiting resistor built into it, but I don't want
> to disassemble it, I would just like to put a resistor in series.
>
>
> Can someone tell me how to do this?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Jeff Hildebrand
> Lancair ES C-GSPH
> www.lancaires.com <http://www.lancaires.com/>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Thermostatically Controlled Radiator |
Flap
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com> Flap
At 07:18 AM 8/26/2005, you wrote:
...
> priority projects. I can spend the time to craft
> a schematic, bill of materials and write the
> software requirements but I'm going to need some
> help to write and debug the software.
I might be able to help with the software, or get it done with the help of
some friends. Thanks again for taking an interest. It looks like some of
the other water-cooled folks might be interested as well.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
Do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator |
Flap
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com> Flap
At 11:52 AM 8/26/2005, you wrote:
...
>Here is the actuator I plan to use in my subaru installation:
>
> http://www.dcactuators.com/Detail.asp?Product_ID=301.200_6176E
I'm thinking of something much, much, smaller; possibly even an RC servo. I
think my loads are going to be very low.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99% done, thanks to Bob Ducar.
Do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator |
Flap
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Flap
At 03:54 PM 8/26/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com> Flap
>
>At 11:52 AM 8/26/2005, you wrote:
>
>...
>
> >Here is the actuator I plan to use in my subaru installation:
> >
> > http://www.dcactuators.com/Detail.asp?Product_ID=301.200_6176E
>
>I'm thinking of something much, much, smaller; possibly even an RC servo. I
>think my loads are going to be very low.
See if one of the Ray-Allen (Mac) servos would work. These have
feedback potentiometers and limit switches built in. This will
be necessary for proper control of the air-door position. You'll
want to design your linkage between door and actuator such that
the door is exactly close when one limit switch operates and
fully open when the opposite switch actuates. If you use the
actuator cited, then you'll need to add an external potentiometer . . .
not difficult but it drives up parts count in the wrong places.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Thermostatically Controlled Radiator |
Flap
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Flap
At 03:51 PM 8/26/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn@nethere.com> Flap
>
>At 07:18 AM 8/26/2005, you wrote:
>
>...
>
> > priority projects. I can spend the time to craft
> > a schematic, bill of materials and write the
> > software requirements but I'm going to need some
> > help to write and debug the software.
>
>I might be able to help with the software, or get it done with the help of
>some friends. Thanks again for taking an interest. It looks like some of
>the other water-cooled folks might be interested as well.
I've hired a software guy. I hoisted the project at dinner
tonight and my father-in-law (recently retired from firm
that does big RAID arrays) saluted it. We'll order some development
tools tomorrow to be permanently assigned to his efforts.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Ammeter Shunt connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 02:48 PM 8/26/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\""
><BigD@DaveMorris.com>
>
>I was planning elaborate diagnostic instrumentation for my Dragonfly, with
>voltmeter test points and ammeters all over the place.
>
>Then I went flying again. While approaching my airport, I realized that if
>something hiccupped, if I saw a wisp of smoke, if a warning light went on,
>I would just not have the bandwidth to start imagining the schematic
>diagram of the electrical system and start flipping switches and taking
>voltmeter readings. I would just want to throw a switch and know that
>there is now a 2 hour countdown to landing in progress or something like
>that. The exact nature of the problem can be best diagnosed on the ground.
Absolutely . . .
>That having been said, I do think it's a good idea to plan ahead for the
>need to diagnose things on the ground and provide/label test points,
>annotate your schematic with voltage references and things like that.
>
>Dave Morris
>
>At 02:04 PM 8/26/2005, you wrote:
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com
> >
> >Bob,
> >I have to disagree. His cart is not ahead of the horse. He is suggesting
> >that as we build an airplane, we build in the diagnostic equipment
> >necessary to
> >analyse the electrical system. I have to agree with that concept. And your
> >answer indicates you advocate building in diagnostic equipment as well.
> >In your final paragraph, you said doing the diagnostics on the ground "saves
> >weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around instruments that never
> >help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access to such data for
> >diagnosis
> >when necessary." However, the sensors will be installed whether used on the
> >ground or in the air, so no weight or money is saved. The sensors can be
> >connected for display on the engine monitor that is already going to be on
> >board,
> >so no weight or savings there.
> >I am one who likes to have as much information as I desire while
> analysing an
> >airborne situation.
Okay, what are your recommendations for installation of an ammeter?
What current parameter(s) are you interested in and how would you
use them in flight?
> So, I prefer to have the voltage and load at numerous
> >places throughout the electrical system. Perhaps I am so ignorant of
> >electricity that I don't even know what I'm seeing on the readings, but I
> >still want to see them.
I'm mystified by this assertion. I've had flight instructors tell
me that ALL displays on the panel are ESSENTIAL else the very wise folks
who designed and/or regulated the configuration of the airplane
would not have included them on the panel. The same instructors
could not describe how an ammeter or voltmeter was used to enhance
probability of a sweat-free arrival with the earth that was
any more illuminating than having a low voltage warning light
telling me to switch to plan-B or plan-C.
> >So, if that is our desire, rather than trying to convince us that we don't
> >need the information displayed, how about helping us determine the best
> >methods
> >to achieve our goals - that is, display of desired system indications.
> >We aren't necessarily looking for a philosophical disccussion on why an
> >alternator ammeter is better or worse or more useful/less useful than a
> >battery
> >ammeter. We are simply asking how to accomplish what we want to achieve.
> >I don't know how much weight or cost it will add to my project to be able to
> >monitor the electrons at the alternator, main bus, standby bus, battery bus,
> >main battery, standby battery, etc. And I don't care - I just want to
> >know how
> >best to do it.
Okay, tell us your goals. I'll suggest that your primary goal
for the day is travel from point A to point B without breaking a
sweat. I'll further suggest that it is of no value to you as
pilot to know exactly WHY an alternator has quit, it's only
useful to know it has quit and that it's time to implement a
pre-planned, very predictable alternative such that sweat-free
arrival is assured. All the voltmeters and ammeters in the world
won't help you out if you don't have pre-planned alternatives.
If you DO have pre-planned alternatives, then the voltmeters and
ammeters are surplus to the mission while airborne.
Once you're on the ground, likelihood that ammeters and voltmeters
as-installed will reveal everything you need to zero in on
root cause of failure is remote . . . there are not enough readings
available from the rudimentary installations of such displays.
You can use an airspeed indicator to fine-tune an approach, how
do you use a voltmeter or ammeter to fine-tune endurance?
Bob . . .
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Thermostatically Controlled Radiator |
Flap
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
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At 08:52 PM 8/26/2005 +0200, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
><mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
> > Is there anyone on the list who can wrangle
> > the PIC series microcontrollers from Microchip?
> > I have the development systems but just don't
> > have time to add this to a long list of higher
> > priority projects. I can spend the time to craft
> > a schematic, bill of materials and write the
> > software requirements but I'm going to need some
> > help to write and debug the software.
> >
> > Bob . . .
>
>Here is the actuator I plan to use in my subaru installation:
>
> http://www.dcactuators.com/Detail.asp?Product_ID=301.200_6176E
>
>According to the data sheet, it has [a] "potentiometer built in
>for actuator positioning (use your microcontroller to determine
>and precisely control actuator positioning)"
>
>I hope you find a volunteer! :-) I'd love to do it, but I
>want to get my airplane flying this year. Really!
If I read the data sheet correctly, there are NONE potentiometers . .
and we WILL need one.
Bob . . .
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