AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Mon 09/05/05


Total Messages Posted: 5



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:13 PM - Shower of Sparks installation help (Neil K Clayton)
     2. 01:59 PM - Re: Shower of Sparks installation help (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     3. 02:03 PM - Re: 2006 Seminar Schedule (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 09:03 PM - Re: Ammeter Shunt connection (Speedy11@aol.com)
     5. 09:43 PM - Re: Re: Ammeter Shunt connection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:13:17 PM PST US
    AeroElectric-List@matronics.com
    From: Neil K Clayton <harvey4@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Shower of Sparks installation help
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Neil K Clayton <harvey4@earthlink.net> I'm in real need of some guidance on my S-o-S installation and I need to TALK to someone who knows there way around these things. Could someone who's done, or has, a S-o-S set-up please give me their phone number? Many thanks Neil


    Message 2


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    Time: 01:59:30 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Shower of Sparks installation help
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 03:08 PM 9/5/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Neil K Clayton ><harvey4@earthlink.net> > >I'm in real need of some guidance on my S-o-S installation and I need >to TALK to someone who knows there way around these things. >Could someone who's done, or has, a S-o-S set-up please give me their >phone number? Start with the article at: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Shower-of-Sparks/ShowerOfSparks.pdf and then post any questions you may have here on the list. Bob . . .


    Message 3


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    Time: 02:03:18 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: 2006 Seminar Schedule
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 06:19 AM 9/4/2005 +0100, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland ><gholland@gemini-resourcing.com> > >Bob Hi from UK! > > > If anyone out there knows their EAA chapter programs/activities > > chairperson and thinks they'd be interested in hosting a seminar, > > I'd be pleased to hear from them. Right now, the 2006 calendar is > > wide open. Thanks! > >I'm asking via the list whether a trip to the UK is possible for an Event >such as the PFA Rally in July 2006 where we also have many visitors from >Europe and beyond. Lots of people here refer to your documentation and use >the list. If there is a good response is that of interest? Sure. Keep in mind that the seminar is a 1-1/2 day, 12-hour course. I've tried in the past to offer this program in conjunction with air shows. My experience with this has been generally poor. Most of the folks who come to air shows are not interested in the details of system design and fabrication. Further, tying up 12 hours of an attendee's time in a classroom when there's much more exciting things to be seen outside is a big deterrent/distraction. The seminar might be offered in the two days preceding or following the show. This would let folks combine two activities into a single trip. Bob . . .


    Message 4


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    Time: 09:03:15 PM PST US
    From: Speedy11@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Ammeter Shunt connection
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com Bob, Sorry to be so long in replying. Your question was, Okay, what are your recommendations for installation of an ammeter? What current parameter(s) are you interested in and how would you use them in flight? I don't have recommendations for installation. That's what I asking. How best to install sensors at the locations I want to monitor. Should I use HE devices? I'd like to monitor the volts and amps at my main battery, standby battery, main bus, standby bus, alternator B lead, and avionics bus. It doesn't matter how I will use them in flight! I simply want to know what type of sensor is best for the task and how best to install them in my airplane. Don't need philosophy, just technical information. Your statement was, I'm mystified by this assertion. I've had flight instructors tell me that ALL displays on the panel are ESSENTIAL else the very wise folks who designed and/or regulated the configuration of the airplane would not have included them on the panel. The same instructors could not describe how an ammeter or voltmeter was used to enhance probability of a sweat-free arrival with the earth that was any more illuminating than having a low voltage warning light telling me to switch to plan-B or plan-C. Mystified or not, I still want to be able to monitor readings at various places in the electrical system. My question remains the same - how to do it? Your statement was, Okay, tell us your goals. I'll suggest that your primary goal for the day is travel from point A to point B without breaking a sweat. I'll further suggest that it is of no value to you as pilot to know exactly WHY an alternator has quit, it's only useful to know it has quit and that it's time to implement a pre-planned, very predictable alternative such that sweat-free arrival is assured. All the voltmeters and ammeters in the world won't help you out if you don't have pre-planned alternatives. If you DO have pre-planned alternatives, then the voltmeters and ammeters are surplus to the mission while airborne. Once you're on the ground, likelihood that ammeters and voltmeters as-installed will reveal everything you need to zero in on root cause of failure is remote . . . there are not enough readings available from the rudimentary installations of such displays. You can use an airspeed indicator to fine-tune an approach, how do you use a voltmeter or ammeter to fine-tune endurance? You needn't suggest goals for me. My goal is to monitor readings at various locations throughout the electrical system. I may or may not use them in an emergency situation. I will decide as I develop my emergency plans for my aircraft. Regardless, I want to monitor voltage and amps at various locations in my electrical system. How can that best be done? It seems to me that I can accomplish the desired goal of monitoring the electrical system by using HE devices at the locations mentioned in the first paragraph. I want to be able to use a selector switch to choose which sensor to display on the engine monitor. I'd also like to download data after landing to analyse later, perhaps more data than I display in flight. It doesn't matter if I have a plan B or C, or why I want to monitor the electrics, or what my paradigm is for alternator failure is. I just want to know how to monitor volts and amps at numerous places within the electrical system. Anyone? Stan Sutterfield Tampa, FL In a message dated 8/27/2005 3:02:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com writes: > >Bob, > >I have to disagree. His cart is not ahead of the horse. He is suggesting > >that as we build an airplane, we build in the diagnostic equipment > >necessary to > >analyse the electrical system. I have to agree with that concept. And your > >answer indicates you advocate building in diagnostic equipment as well. > >In your final paragraph, you said doing the diagnostics on the ground "saves > >weight, panel space and dollars for carrying around instruments that never > >help you fly the airplane but provides a ready access to such data for > >diagnosis > >when necessary." However, the sensors will be installed whether used on the > >ground or in the air, so no weight or money is saved. The sensors can be > >connected for display on the engine monitor that is already going to be on > >board, > >so no weight or savings there. > >I am one who likes to have as much information as I desire while > analysing an > >airborne situation. Okay, what are your recommendations for installation of an ammeter? What current parameter(s) are you interested in and how would you use them in flight? > So, I prefer to have the voltage and load at numerous > >places throughout the electrical system. Perhaps I am so ignorant of > >electricity that I don't even know what I'm seeing on the readings, but I > >still want to see them. I'm mystified by this assertion. I've had flight instructors tell me that ALL displays on the panel are ESSENTIAL else the very wise folks who designed and/or regulated the configuration of the airplane would not have included them on the panel. The same instructors could not describe how an ammeter or voltmeter was used to enhance probability of a sweat-free arrival with the earth that was any more illuminating than having a low voltage warning light telling me to switch to plan-B or plan-C. > >So, if that is our desire, rather than trying to convince us that we don't > >need the information displayed, how about helping us determine the best > >methods > >to achieve our goals - that is, display of desired system indications. > >We aren't necessarily looking for a philosophical disccussion on why an > >alternator ammeter is better or worse or more useful/less useful than a > >battery > >ammeter. We are simply asking how to accomplish what we want to achieve. > >I don't know how much weight or cost it will add to my project to be able to > >monitor the electrons at the alternator, main bus, standby bus, battery bus, > >main battery, standby battery, etc. And I don't care - I just want to > >know how > >best to do it. Okay, tell us your goals. I'll suggest that your primary goal for the day is travel from point A to point B without breaking a sweat. I'll further suggest that it is of no value to you as pilot to know exactly WHY an alternator has quit, it's only useful to know it has quit and that it's time to implement a pre-planned, very predictable alternative such that sweat-free arrival is assured. All the voltmeters and ammeters in the world won't help you out if you don't have pre-planned alternatives. If you DO have pre-planned alternatives, then the voltmeters and ammeters are surplus to the mission while airborne. Once you're on the ground, likelihood that ammeters and voltmeters as-installed will reveal everything you need to zero in on root cause of failure is remote . . . there are not enough readings available from the rudimentary installations of such displays. You can use an airspeed indicator to fine-tune an approach, how do you use a voltmeter or ammeter to fine-tune endurance?


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:43:49 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Ammeter Shunt connection
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 12:01 AM 9/6/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com > >Bob, >Sorry to be so long in replying. >Your question was, > Okay, what are your recommendations for installation of an ammeter? > What current parameter(s) are you interested in and how would you > use them in flight? >I don't have recommendations for installation. That's what I asking. How >best to install sensors at the locations I want to monitor. Should I use HE >devices? I'd like to monitor the volts and amps at my main battery, standby >battery, main bus, standby bus, alternator B lead, and avionics bus. It >doesn't >matter how I will use them in flight! I simply want to know what type of >sensor is best for the task and how best to install them in my >airplane. Don't >need philosophy, just technical information. Shunts work well, Hall effect devices work well. If you want analog displays (pointers) then you're more likely to find suitable instruments that work with shunts. Most HE systems will be set up for digital displays. <snip> >You needn't suggest goals for me. My goal is to monitor readings at various >locations throughout the electrical system. I may or may not use them in an >emergency situation. I will decide as I develop my emergency plans for my >aircraft. Regardless, I want to monitor voltage and amps at various >locations in >my electrical system. How can that best be done? It seems to me that I can >accomplish the desired goal of monitoring the electrical system by using HE >devices at the locations mentioned in the first paragraph. I want to be >able to >use a selector switch to choose which sensor to display on the engine >monitor. > I'd also like to download data after landing to analyse later, perhaps more >data than I display in flight. >It doesn't matter if I have a plan B or C, or why I want to monitor the >electrics, or what my paradigm is for alternator failure is. I just want >to know >how to monitor volts and amps at numerous places within the electrical system. >Anyone? If you're handy with programming (or know someone who is) then one can craft a data acquisition system that will meet your needs. I build several systems per year to investigate specific system malfunctions . . . but these are always PC based using some COTS data acquisition products. Some of my favorites are http://weedtech.com/ and http://labjack.com/labjack_u12.html These are really easy to use and can be configured to accept data through a diagnostics/monitoring port like I described last week at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdf/Electrical_System_Diagnostics.pdf At the present time, I'm aware of no one who offers equipment designed to permanently install in your airplane for the purposes you've described. Bob . . .




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