---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/08/05: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:27 AM - Re: Noise Filter for 5 lead motor (revenson@comcast.net) 2. 09:32 AM - d-sub connection (springcanyon) 3. 09:45 AM - Re: d-sub connection (Bruce Gray) 4. 10:50 AM - Plane Power 60 Amp Alternator (Speedy11@aol.com) 5. 11:05 AM - Re: d-sub connection (CozyGirrrl@aol.com) 6. 11:13 AM - Re: d-sub connection (Bob White) 7. 11:22 AM - Crowbar OVM schematic version? (D Wysong) 8. 12:01 PM - Strobe noise on Piper Archer II (Mickey Coggins) 9. 12:32 PM - Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? (Scott Derrick) 10. 01:00 PM - Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? (Bruce Gray) 11. 01:05 PM - Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 01:08 PM - Re: Strobe noise on Piper Archer II (Matt Prather) 13. 01:20 PM - Re: Strobe noise on Piper Archer II (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 01:34 PM - Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? (Jon Woellhaf) 15. 01:42 PM - Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? (Scott Derrick) 16. 02:04 PM - Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? (Joseph Larson) 17. 02:56 PM - Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? (Bruce Gray) 18. 02:57 PM - Battery is not charging (Carlos Trigo) 19. 03:19 PM - Re: Battery is not charging (Bill Denton) 20. 04:25 PM - mini jack source (Robert Dickson) 21. 05:36 PM - Re: d-sub connection (N1deltawhiskey@aol.com) 22. 05:36 PM - Re: mini jack source (N1deltawhiskey@aol.com) 23. 05:38 PM - Re: Battery is not charging (Matt Prather) 24. 06:02 PM - Re: mini jack source (LarryRobertHelming) 25. 06:13 PM - Re: d-sub connection (Ed Anderson) 26. 06:56 PM - Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? (PJ Seipel) 27. 07:12 PM - Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 28. 07:15 PM - Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 29. 07:24 PM - Re: Battery is not charging (Gilles St-Pierre) 30. 07:40 PM - Re: Battery is not charging (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 31. 07:57 PM - Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? (Bruce Gray) 32. 08:22 PM - Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 33. 09:53 PM - Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? (Bruce Gray) 34. 11:48 PM - Re: mini jack source (Jim Jewell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:36 AM PST US From: revenson@comcast.net Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Noise Filter for 5 lead motor --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: revenson@comcast.net Bob wrote previously: First, have you run this motor and confirmed that you truly need a filter? Given that there are 3 speed control leads in addition to a power lead, I'm thinking that the control leads do not represent a high noise risk. Yes, I have run this fan motor, but only from the battery (engine not running): Low, medium, and high fan speeds work just fine, but when switching past low,the supercharger high manifold pressure light comes on and stays on.To get it off, I have to pull the 9pin dsub off the supercharger controller. Once reconnected,as soon as I start moving that heater switch past the low position, on comes the light.My supercharger controller power is taken from the line side of a breaker comingfrom the Aux battery, while the heater power is coming off the other side (the load side)of the same breaker. I've since removed the fan power and its 3 speed control wires well away from the supercharger controller wires, as well as moved the fan power source off the breaker near the supercharger controller source, but I get the same response. Does this mean it's RFI coming from the fan motor (the motor case is plastic, not metal)? And is this a candidate for an inductor/capacitor filter near the motor? Any other suggestions? Thanks. Roger. Bob wrote previously: First, have you run this motor and confirmed that you truly need a filter? Given that there are 3 speed control leads in addition to a power lead, I'm thinking that the control leads do not represent a high noise risk. Yes, I have run this fan motor, but only from the battery (engine not running): Low, medium, and high fan speeds work just fine, but when switching past low,the supercharger high manifold pressure light comes on and stays on.To get it off, I have to pull the 9pin dsub off the supercharger controller. Once reconnected,as soon as I start moving that heater switch past the low position, on comes thelight.My supercharger controller power is taken from the line side of abreaker comingfrom the Auxbattery, while the heater power is coming off the other side (the load side)of the same breaker. I've since removed the fan power and its 3 speed control wires well away from the supercharger controller wires, as well as moved the fan power source off the breaker near the supercharger controller source, but I get the same response. Does this mean it's RFI coming from the fan motor (the motor case is plastic, not metal)? And is this a candidate for an inductor/capacitor filter near the motor? Any other suggestions? Thanks. Roger. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:27 AM PST US From: "springcanyon" Subject: AeroElectric-List: d-sub connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "springcanyon" Hi Bob, I decided that I had to have a wiring connection at the wing root of my RV-7 so I made the connection with a pair of 9 pin, d-sub connectors. Afterward I realized that they are not really designed to go together, as there is no provision to mechanically (screws) connect them. There must be a better way. Suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Don Owens ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:13 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: d-sub connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" Even when you can screw them together, it's a good idea to x-wrap them with safety wire. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of springcanyon Subject: AeroElectric-List: d-sub connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "springcanyon" Hi Bob, I decided that I had to have a wiring connection at the wing root of my RV-7 so I made the connection with a pair of 9 pin, d-sub connectors. Afterward I realized that they are not really designed to go together, as there is no provision to mechanically (screws) connect them. There must be a better way. Suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Don Owens ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:50:12 AM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Plane Power 60 Amp Alternator --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com Has anyone on the list bought the Plane Power alternator? Any comments? http://www.plane-power.com/AL12-EI60.htm 12 volt, 60 amp, internally regulated alternator kit includes regulator, overvoltage protection, brackets, pulley, mounting hardware and belt. Weighs only 6lb 15 oz. and has LV indication. Stan Sutterfield ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:05:49 AM PST US From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: d-sub connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: CozyGirrrl@aol.com In a message dated 9/8/2005 11:48:07 AM Central Daylight Time, Bruce@glasair.org writes: Even when you can screw them together, it's a good idea to x-wrap them with safety wire. Bruce or my favorite: large scale shrink tubing ...Chrissi _www.CozyGirrrl.com_ (http://www.cozygirrrl.com/) Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:13:19 AM PST US From: Bob White Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: d-sub connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob White On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:30:56 -0700 "springcanyon" wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "springcanyon" > > Hi Bob, > > I decided that I had to have a wiring connection at the wing root of my > RV-7 so I made the connection with a pair of 9 pin, d-sub connectors. > Afterward I realized that they are not really designed to go together, as > there is no provision to mechanically (screws) connect them. There must be > a better way. Suggestions would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > Don Owens > > Hi Don, You can get the screw lock kits so that they can be screwed together. see here http://www.mouser.com/catalog/623/863.pdf for example. Bob White -- http://www.bob-white.com N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (real soon) Prewired EC2 Cables - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:22:43 AM PST US From: D Wysong Subject: AeroElectric-List: Crowbar OVM schematic version? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: D Wysong Howdy Bob - FYI (from a nitpickin' proof reader) - it seems that an older schematic and BOM snuck back onto page 1 of the Crowbar OVM document (02/20/01): http://aeroelectric.com/articles/crowbar.pdf I dug out a schematic from 06/29/04, but I figured there might be an even later revision to reflect Ken's contribution. No? Thanks, D ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:01:56 PM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: AeroElectric-List: Strobe noise on Piper Archer II --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins I'm getting a lot of strobe noise - kind of a whooping sound - in one of our club's Pipers. It's so bad I can't run the strobes and listen to the radio. I've read in the archives that people have solved this problem with a capacitor somewhere, but I can't find the details. Any hints appreciated before we give it to the shop for them to spend 2 weeks debugging it at a thousand dollars an hour, or whatever they charge. Thanks, Mickey -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:32:19 PM PST US From: Scott Derrick Subject: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Derrick I have a 28 vdc alternator that came with the engine I am installing in my airplane. This is a 70 amp 28vdc alternator made for a Cessna, T210. However my plane is 14 volts. I was told I can use a 14 volt regulator with this alternator with no problem. True? Scott ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:10 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" Real airplanes have 28v electrical systems. I know Bob is not a fan of 28v, but I am. Your 70 Amp 28v alternator is the equivalent of a 140 Amp 14v alternator. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Derrick Subject: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Derrick I have a 28 vdc alternator that came with the engine I am installing in my airplane. This is a 70 amp 28vdc alternator made for a Cessna, T210. However my plane is 14 volts. I was told I can use a 14 volt regulator with this alternator with no problem. True? Scott ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:43 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:31 PM 9/8/2005 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Derrick > >I have a 28 vdc alternator that came with the engine I am installing in >my airplane. This is a 70 amp 28vdc alternator made for a Cessna, T210. > >However my plane is 14 volts. > >I was told I can use a 14 volt regulator with this alternator with no >problem. True? It will probably work with a 14v regulator in 14v system but with severely limited performance. I'd have to run one of these puppies on a drive stand to see how bad it gets but I'm sure you won't begin to get 60A from it. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:36 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strobe noise on Piper Archer II From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Hi Mickey, Has the audio system (I assume) always had this much noise, or is it something that slowly has gotten worse, or could it's increase be correlated to some service work that was done to the airplane (new equipment added, etc.)? I think I wouldn't really consider adding any bandaides (capacitor) to the system, especially if it ever worked properly. If the problem slowly crept up on you, it sounds typical of a symptom of poor grounding - high resistance at a connection where should be low resistance. Maybe a corroded joint. It might be reasonable to go around to where the strobes are electrically connected to the airplane and re-seat those connections. See if that has any effect. See if the strobe power supply is grounded locally to the airframe instead of more directly to the battery. If it's grounded locally, consider (temporarily at least), running a well constructed ground wire from the strobe directly to the battery. Or, as Bob often recommends, temporarily power the strobe unit from a seperate battery. Good luck! Matt- VE N34RD, C150 N714BK > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > > > I'm getting a lot of strobe noise - kind of a > whooping sound - in one of our club's Pipers. > It's so bad I can't run the strobes and listen > to the radio. I've read in the archives that > people have solved this problem with a capacitor > somewhere, but I can't find the details. Any > hints appreciated before we give it to the shop > for them to spend 2 weeks debugging it at a > thousand dollars an hour, or whatever they charge. > > Thanks, > Mickey > -- > Mickey Coggins > http://www.rv8.ch/ > #82007 finishing > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:20:16 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strobe noise on Piper Archer II --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:59 PM 9/8/2005 +0200, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > > >I'm getting a lot of strobe noise - kind of a >whooping sound - in one of our club's Pipers. >It's so bad I can't run the strobes and listen >to the radio. I've read in the archives that >people have solved this problem with a capacitor >somewhere, but I can't find the details. Any >hints appreciated before we give it to the shop >for them to spend 2 weeks debugging it at a >thousand dollars an hour, or whatever they charge. First, try running the strobes from a pair of 6v lantern batteries hooked in series or perhaps a small motorcycle or garden tractor battery. If you're working with an avionics shop, perhaps they have a small bench supply you can used to power the strobes. Hook the supply in right at the strobe supply and see if the noise goes away. If it does, this confirms that the noise is being conducted out of the strobe supply on the +14v line. Try a fat electrolytic right across the +14v input terminals to the strobes. Radio Shack has a 1000uF/ 35v part 272-1019 that seems to come two in a package for $1.69. If these have a very marked effect, it may mean that capacitors normally occupying this same position INSIDE the supply have gone bad. You have an option of adding new caps outside or fixing the supply . . . how old is it? If this has some effect but not enough, you may need to add some inductance between the supply and the filter caps. Review http://aeroelectric.com/articles/filter/RS_Noise_Filters.pdf for COTS filters that have been useful in curing this noise in the past. I'm told that RS no longer carries these filters so you may have to fabricate with discrete capacitors and inductor. Jameco.com has suitable inductors. For a strobe supply I'd try their p/n 2320-H Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:16 PM PST US From: "Jon Woellhaf" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Woellhaf" Bruce Gray wrote, "... I know Bob is not a fan of 28v ..." Why not? ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:34 PM PST US From: Scott Derrick Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Derrick Can a good alternator shop convert it to 14 volts pretty easily? I had a 55 amp alternator on the plane previously and that was plenty... Scott Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > >At 01:31 PM 9/8/2005 -0600, you wrote: > > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Scott Derrick >> >>I have a 28 vdc alternator that came with the engine I am installing in >>my airplane. This is a 70 amp 28vdc alternator made for a Cessna, T210. >> >>However my plane is 14 volts. >> >>I was told I can use a 14 volt regulator with this alternator with no >>problem. True? >> >> > > It will probably work with a 14v regulator in 14v system but with > severely limited performance. I'd have to run one of these > puppies on a drive stand to see how bad it gets but I'm sure > you won't begin to get 60A from it. > > Bob . . . > > >. > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:15 PM PST US From: Joseph Larson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joseph Larson Wouldn't 28-volt systems require all your electrical components to be built specifically for the aviation industry? Stuff like headlamps and such. Heck, where do you find battery chargers that will charge 28-volt batteries? What do they cost? 28-volt systems allow you to run fewer amps through your wires, which has certain benefits, I suppose, but I'm intending a 14-volt system as standardized by the auto industry. -Joe On Sep 8, 2005, at 3:31 PM, Jon Woellhaf wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Woellhaf" > > > Bruce Gray wrote, "... I know Bob is not a fan of 28v ..." > > Why not? ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:56:58 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" 28v is used in the trucking industry also. Nothing wrong with 14v, I just like more power and I don't like my panel to go dim at night when I lower the gear. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Larson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joseph Larson Wouldn't 28-volt systems require all your electrical components to be built specifically for the aviation industry? Stuff like headlamps and such. Heck, where do you find battery chargers that will charge 28-volt batteries? What do they cost? 28-volt systems allow you to run fewer amps through your wires, which has certain benefits, I suppose, but I'm intending a 14-volt system as standardized by the auto industry. -Joe On Sep 8, 2005, at 3:31 PM, Jon Woellhaf wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Woellhaf" > > > Bruce Gray wrote, "... I know Bob is not a fan of 28v ..." > > Why not? ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:28 PM PST US Received-SPF: softfail (mta5: domain of transitioning trigo@mail.telepac.pt does not designate 85.138.31.28 as permitted sender) receiver=mta5; client_ip=85.138.31.28; envelope-from=trigo@mail.telepac.pt; From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery is not charging --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" I have an airplane which I don't fly often and therefore don't find strange when I arrive to the hangar and find a flat battery (I know that I must purchase a battery tender for it - already ordered it). In the last years, a simple battery charge solved the problem, together with replacing the battery once a year. Last June I suspected that the battery was not being charged by the engine (ROTAX 912, no "common" alternator but a generator), but after preliminary investigations, not finding any aparent cause, decided to replace the battery. In following flights, the battery kept loosing volts but still managing to maintain the daylight electric consumers aboard (COM radio, XPDR, Intercom, GPS). Then I decided to put a digital voltmeter and read 12.6V. Tried to start the engine but no way. After a jump start, the reading was the same 12.6V, which confirmed that the battery was not being charged by the engine generator. After a flight with all the consumers on, the voltage went down to 10.4V and although the engine kept running without any problems, when I decided to land I had all the avionics off without turning them off. Conclusion: battery is not really been charged by the engine! After doing all the obvious tests, which were checking cables, replacing the regulator, measuring the generator output and even checking generator cables resistance, we didn't find the reason for the problem. Help needed here! Any hints? Thanks Carlos Trigo ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:45 PM PST US From: "Bill Denton" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery is not charging --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" Rotax offers an external alternator, designed to be used with the existing generator, for the 912. http://www.lockwood-aviation.com/store/product.php?productid=18751&cat=282&p age=1 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carlos Trigo Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery is not charging --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" I have an airplane which I don't fly often and therefore don't find strange when I arrive to the hangar and find a flat battery (I know that I must purchase a battery tender for it - already ordered it). In the last years, a simple battery charge solved the problem, together with replacing the battery once a year. Last June I suspected that the battery was not being charged by the engine (ROTAX 912, no "common" alternator but a generator), but after preliminary investigations, not finding any aparent cause, decided to replace the battery. In following flights, the battery kept loosing volts but still managing to maintain the daylight electric consumers aboard (COM radio, XPDR, Intercom, GPS). Then I decided to put a digital voltmeter and read 12.6V. Tried to start the engine but no way. After a jump start, the reading was the same 12.6V, which confirmed that the battery was not being charged by the engine generator. After a flight with all the consumers on, the voltage went down to 10.4V and although the engine kept running without any problems, when I decided to land I had all the avionics off without turning them off. Conclusion: battery is not really been charged by the engine! After doing all the obvious tests, which were checking cables, replacing the regulator, measuring the generator output and even checking generator cables resistance, we didn't find the reason for the problem. Help needed here! Any hints? Thanks Carlos Trigo ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:07 PM PST US From: Robert Dickson Subject: AeroElectric-List: mini jack source --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert Dickson I'm looking for a source for a 1/8 inch stereo mini plug jack that can be mounted in my metal panel and isolated from ground. I'm using it for a music input to my Garmin 340 audio panel. Currently I have a cheapo Radio Shack jack installed and I can hear the strobes (power packs in wing tips) pulsing when I turn on the high gain switch. I may have another problem but I figure that until I get that jack isolated I won't know. The jack I'm using is just barely long enough to make it through the panel, so just adding washers to it isn't an option. So, does anyone know where I can find a jack with isolating washers that I can mount in my panel? Or, is there another way to skin this cat that won't look too junky in my nice clean panel? thanks, Robert Dickson RV-6A 130 hrs. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:56 PM PST US From: N1deltawhiskey@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: d-sub connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N1deltawhiskey@aol.com In a message dated 08-Sep-05 9:34:13 Pacific Standard Time, springcanyon@mymethow.com writes: I decided that I had to have a wiring connection at the wing root of my RV-7 so I made the connection with a pair of 9 pin, d-sub connectors. Afterward I realized that they are not really designed to go together, as there is no provision to mechanically (screws) connect them. There must be a better way. Suggestions would be appreciated. Don, I have come to like the AMP CPC (Circular Plastic Connector) connectors. They mate, then a turn of the locking ring holds them together (like a bayonet fastener). They come in straight inline configurations or flanged so one side can be secured to the airframe. They also come in different pin types/sizes (including the machined pins used in the D-sub connectors that Bob recommends), and different pin counts. This site will get you started: http://www.amp.com/prodnews.asp?id=298 Mouser, among others, have these. Doug Windhorn ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:56 PM PST US From: N1deltawhiskey@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: mini jack source --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N1deltawhiskey@aol.com In a message dated 08-Sep-05 16:26:25 Pacific Standard Time, robert@thenews-journal.com writes: Or, is there another way to skin this cat that won't look too junky in my nice clean panel? Robert, Have you tried duplicating the circumstances with the jack dismounted from the panel? Does it cure the problem? If not, I would be skeptical that simply isolating it from the panel will be the solution. Doug Windhorn ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery is not charging From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Hi Carlos, I have a couple of ideas based on what you said.. Do you know if the system ever actually charged the battery - kept the bus voltage above 14v? In other words, was the system wired correctly? Please see my embedded comments/questions. > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" > > snip > engine! After doing all the obvious tests, which were checking cables, > replacing the regulator, measuring the generator output and even > checking generator cables resistance, we didn't find the reason for the > problem. > When you say "measuring the generator output" what do you mean? With the engine running? Where in the circuit, and under what conditions did you check its function? Many alternators don't produce charging voltage at idle RPM. > Help needed here! Any hints? > If you have good components, and aren't certain that the charging system ever actually worked correctly, I'd be suspect of it's design/installation. If you don't have a schematic of the system, draw one up - take a notepad, pencil and DMM to the hangar and doodle it out - nothing fancy. Compare what's doodled to what's on one of the Bob's Rotax diagrams. Even if the system is designed/installed okay, the exercise will help you debug the system. Does the design look like Z16? If the design and install look okay, take your meter and start checking voltages at different points in the circuit and making notes. Does the system have an alternator disconnect relay? If yes, does it make a clicking sound when you turn on the alternator switch (may click at the same time as the battery relay). When it clicks, do you get batter voltage to the control lead on the regulator? With everything turned on (doesn't matter if the engine is running) do you have continuity between the output lead(s) on the alternator and the batter (bus)? > Thanks > Carlos Trigo > > Regards, Matt- ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:28 PM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: mini jack source --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" To test your theory, you should remove the jack from the panel and attempt to use it without it touching anything to eliminate the grounding possibility. Indiana Larry ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ " Happiness: like a butterfly, when pursued, is always beyond our grasp, but which, if one sits quietly, may light upon you." Nathanial Hawthorn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Dickson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: mini jack source > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert Dickson > > > I'm looking for a source for a 1/8 inch stereo mini plug jack that can > be mounted in my metal panel and isolated from ground. I'm using it for > a music input to my Garmin 340 audio panel. Currently I have a cheapo > Radio Shack jack installed and I can hear the strobes (power packs in > wing tips) pulsing when I turn on the high gain switch. I may have > another problem but I figure that until I get that jack isolated I > won't know. The jack I'm using is just barely long enough to make it > through the panel, so just adding washers to it isn't an option. > So, does anyone know where I can find a jack with isolating washers > that I can mount in my panel? Or, is there another way to skin this cat > that won't look too junky in my nice clean panel? > > thanks, > Robert Dickson > RV-6A 130 hrs. > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:57 PM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: d-sub connection --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" I agree, the circular plastic connectors I used have given trouble free service since 1997. They are not that hard to solder/crimp the wire to the pins and then stick the pin down into the slot in the plastic. Just make certain the pin "locks" down in the slot. Also a good ideal to get one of the pin removal tools (get the cheap ones) or you can take the appropriate size of brass tubing from your model store and made your own. Just need something to press the retaining tabs down as you pull the pin out of its slot - in the rare case you make a mistake{:>). They are essentially weather proof and hold up well even in rain. Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: d-sub connection > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N1deltawhiskey@aol.com > > In a message dated 08-Sep-05 9:34:13 Pacific Standard Time, > springcanyon@mymethow.com writes: > I decided that I had to have a wiring connection at the wing root of my > RV-7 so I made the connection with a pair of 9 pin, d-sub connectors. > Afterward I realized that they are not really designed to go together, as > there is no provision to mechanically (screws) connect them. There must > be > a better way. Suggestions would be appreciated. > Don, > > I have come to like the AMP CPC (Circular Plastic Connector) connectors. > They mate, then a turn of the locking ring holds them together (like a > bayonet > fastener). They come in straight inline configurations or flanged so one > side > can be secured to the airframe. They also come in different pin > types/sizes > (including the machined pins used in the D-sub connectors that Bob > recommends), > and different pin counts. This site will get you started: > > http://www.amp.com/prodnews.asp?id=298 > > Mouser, among others, have these. > > Doug Windhorn > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:19 PM PST US From: PJ Seipel Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: PJ Seipel Sure, but how much automotive stuff are you planning on using? Most modern avionics take anything between 10 and 30 volts. 28v halogen bulbs don't cost any more than the 12v version although they're less common. Battery chargers are out there, try Concorde. I'm curious, does anyone have any reason why 28v is not a good idea besides you can't use 12v automotive parts? That's the only reason I've ever heard as to why people prefer 12v. PJ 40032 Joseph Larson wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joseph Larson > >Wouldn't 28-volt systems require all your electrical components to be >built specifically for the aviation industry? Stuff like headlamps >and such. Heck, where do you find battery chargers that will charge >28-volt batteries? What do they cost? > >28-volt systems allow you to run fewer amps through your wires, which >has certain benefits, I suppose, but I'm intending a 14-volt system >as standardized by the auto industry. > >-Joe > >On Sep 8, 2005, at 3:31 PM, Jon Woellhaf wrote: > > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Woellhaf" >> >> >>Bruce Gray wrote, "... I know Bob is not a fan of 28v ..." >> >>Why not? >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:24 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:31 PM 9/8/2005 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jon Woellhaf" > > >Bruce Gray wrote, "... I know Bob is not a fan of 28v ..." It shuts you out of using a wealth of automotive components which are entirely suited for use in aircraft. 24 volt batteries having the same ENERGY content have smaller (lower a.h.) cells which combine with more cell interconnect materials to reduce cranking efficiency compared with a 12v battery. Weight savings is miniscule while cost of ownership is much greater. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:15:37 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:52 PM 9/8/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > >28v is used in the trucking industry also. Nothing wrong with 14v, I just >like more power and I don't like my panel to go dim at night when I lower >the gear. More power to do what? The only 24 volt system I helpped put in a long-ez was about 20 years ago when the builder wanted electric heat in the cabin. We put a 24-volt 100A system in and he still didn't have all the heat he needed. A 14v, 60A system is good for 650W with charging reserves. How much do you need that cannot be met with this source? Dimming of the panel lights can be offset with REGULATING dimmers like the ones we used to sell and now sold by B&C. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:51 PM PST US From: "Gilles St-Pierre" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery is not charging --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Gilles St-Pierre" Carlos check your ground connectios and make sure every connections is in good shape gilles st pierre >From: "Carlos Trigo" >Reply-To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Battery is not charging >Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 22:56:44 +0100 > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" > > >I have an airplane which I don't fly often and therefore don't find strange >when I arrive to the hangar and find a flat battery (I know that I must >purchase a battery tender for it - already ordered it). >In the last years, a simple battery charge solved the problem, together >with replacing the battery once a year. >Last June I suspected that the battery was not being charged by the engine >(ROTAX 912, no "common" alternator but a generator), but after preliminary >investigations, not finding any aparent cause, decided to replace the >battery. In following flights, the battery kept loosing volts but still >managing to maintain the daylight electric consumers aboard (COM radio, >XPDR, Intercom, GPS). >Then I decided to put a digital voltmeter and read 12.6V. Tried to start >the engine but no way. After a jump start, the reading was the same 12.6V, >which confirmed that the battery was not being charged by the engine >generator. After a flight with all the consumers on, the voltage went down >to 10.4V and although the engine kept running without any problems, when I >decided to land I had all the avionics off without turning them off. >Conclusion: battery is not really been charged by the engine! >After doing all the obvious tests, which were checking cables, replacing >the regulator, measuring the generator output and even checking generator >cables resistance, we didn't find the reason for the problem. > >Help needed here! Any hints? > >Thanks >Carlos Trigo > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:04 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery is not charging --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:56 PM 9/8/2005 +0100, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" > > >I have an airplane which I don't fly often and therefore don't find >strange when I arrive to the hangar and find a flat battery (I know that I >must purchase a battery tender for it - already ordered it). >In the last years, a simple battery charge solved the problem, together >with replacing the battery once a year. >Last June I suspected that the battery was not being charged by the engine >(ROTAX 912, no "common" alternator but a generator), but after preliminary >investigations, not finding any aparent cause, decided to replace the >battery. In following flights, the battery kept loosing volts but still >managing to maintain the daylight electric consumers aboard (COM radio, >XPDR, Intercom, GPS). >Then I decided to put a digital voltmeter and read 12.6V. Tried to start >the engine but no way. After a jump start, the reading was the same >12.6V, which confirmed that the battery was not being charged by the >engine generator. After a flight with all the consumers on, the voltage >went down to 10.4V and although the engine kept running without any >problems, when I decided to land I had all the avionics off without >turning them off. Conclusion: battery is not really been charged by the engine! >After doing all the obvious tests, which were checking cables, replacing >the regulator, measuring the generator output and even checking generator >cables resistance, we didn't find the reason for the problem. But you may have found the problem. The Rotax has a permanent magnet alternator that will not produce full output at less than about 5000 rpm on the crankshaft. When the alternator IS producing full output, it must be regulated to some voltage between 13.8 and 14.6 volts. You won't be able to confirm operation of the alternator and its associated regulator without monitoring the voltage at (1) high engine rpm and (2) with a fully charged battery. A small (18A) alternator can be so heavily loaded by a discharged battery that the bus voltage appears low and mimics a malfunctioning regulator/ rectifier. Get the battery tender. Hook it up for 24 hours or more. Fly the airplane while watching voltage and report your findings back to us. It would also be helpful to have an alternator loadmeter installed so that you can see if the alternator is "working hard" or "broke". Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:28 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" How many 14v airplanes does RAC or Cessna make today? Zip..Nada..Zero Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:52 PM 9/8/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > >28v is used in the trucking industry also. Nothing wrong with 14v, I just >like more power and I don't like my panel to go dim at night when I lower >the gear. More power to do what? The only 24 volt system I helpped put in a long-ez was about 20 years ago when the builder wanted electric heat in the cabin. We put a 24-volt 100A system in and he still didn't have all the heat he needed. A 14v, 60A system is good for 650W with charging reserves. How much do you need that cannot be met with this source? Dimming of the panel lights can be offset with REGULATING dimmers like the ones we used to sell and now sold by B&C. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:09 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:56 PM 9/8/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > >How many 14v airplanes does RAC or Cessna make today? Zip..Nada..Zero > >Bruce And just why do you suppose that is? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:36 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" Oh, the usual - commonality across production lines. And it's better. (grin) Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:56 PM 9/8/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > >How many 14v airplanes does RAC or Cessna make today? Zip..Nada..Zero > >Bruce And just why do you suppose that is? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:54 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: mini jack source --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" Hi Ron, My my aren't you a pretty picture, NOT! In light of your present employment I would suggest that while he's busy rebuilding the nose, the plastic surgeon should give you a nice long pointy beak so that you can snoop better. Sorry to hear about the mishap but very glad your still around to make fun of... {[;-) The plane is getting painted, all the small parts are painted yellow. The wings are in the paint shop, took them there today. They will be painted yellow in the next two or three days. The windshield is due to be installed as soon as a small welding job can be done on the roll bar which serves as the windshield support. There is actually very little work left to be done but now the paper trail with the government begins. The graphic is a rough draft of the intended final design. I know the next few weeks will be tough enough, Hang in there lad. Unc ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: mini jack source > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" > > > To test your theory, you should remove the jack from the panel and attempt > to use it without it touching anything to eliminate the grounding > possibility. > > Indiana Larry > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > " Happiness: like a butterfly, when pursued, > is always beyond our grasp, but which, > if one sits quietly, may light upon you." > > Nathanial Hawthorn > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Dickson" > To: "Aeroelectric List List" > Subject: AeroElectric-List: mini jack source > > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert Dickson >> >> >> I'm looking for a source for a 1/8 inch stereo mini plug jack that can >> be mounted in my metal panel and isolated from ground. I'm using it for >> a music input to my Garmin 340 audio panel. Currently I have a cheapo >> Radio Shack jack installed and I can hear the strobes (power packs in >> wing tips) pulsing when I turn on the high gain switch. I may have >> another problem but I figure that until I get that jack isolated I >> won't know. The jack I'm using is just barely long enough to make it >> through the panel, so just adding washers to it isn't an option. >> So, does anyone know where I can find a jack with isolating washers >> that I can mount in my panel? Or, is there another way to skin this cat >> that won't look too junky in my nice clean panel? >> >> thanks, >> Robert Dickson >> RV-6A 130 hrs. >> >> >> > > >