---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 09/10/05: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:31 AM - Re: Battery is not charging (Carlos Trigo) 2. 06:35 AM - Re: Battery is not charging (Bill Denton) 3. 06:51 AM - Re: DC to DC converter (Eric M. Jones) 4. 09:31 AM - Re: Battery is not charging (Jim Baker) 5. 10:03 AM - Re: Battery is not charging (Carlos Trigo) 6. 11:01 AM - Re: Battery is not charging (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 11:02 AM - Re: Battery is not charging (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 12:09 PM - Re: Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? () 9. 12:12 PM - Re: Re: DC to DC converter (Bob McCallum) 10. 01:02 PM - Re: RV 10 wiring architecture (Dave & Brenda Emond) 11. 02:53 PM - Re: Re: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 05:20 PM - elec smoke smell (Guy and Jill Foreman) 13. 06:22 PM - Re: Re: RV 10 wiring architecture (brian bollaert) 14. 06:32 PM - Re: elec smoke smell (Richard Riley) 15. 08:11 PM - Re: Re: RV 10 wiring architecture (Kevin Horton) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:31:25 AM PST US Received-SPF: softfail (mta7: domain of transitioning trigo@mail.telepac.pt does not designate 85.138.31.28 as permitted sender) receiver=mta7; client_ip=85.138.31.28; envelope-from=trigo@mail.telepac.pt; From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery is not charging --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" Bill, Matt, Bob Thanks for your answers. From: "Matt Prather" > > Do you know if the system ever actually charged the battery - kept the bus > voltage above 14v? In other words, was the system wired correctly? Yes. Since 1999 > When you say "measuring the generator output" what do you mean? With the > engine running? Yes, at idle but also at around 2500RPM. But yesterday, when we measured between the 2 yellow wires of the generator not connected to the system, we got 0 (zero, nada), therefore the down indicated conclusion. > If you don't have a schematic of the system, draw > one up - take a notepad, pencil and DMM to the hangar and doodle > it out > nothing fancy. Compare what's doodled to what's on one of > the Bob's Rotax diagrams. Even if the system is designed/installed > okay, the exercise will help you debug the system. I'll try to do it, because the iniyial builder didn't do it and I have none. > Does the system have an alternator disconnect relay? No "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > Get the battery tender. Hook it up for 24 hours or more. Fly the > airplane while watching voltage and report your findings back > to us. It would also be helpful to have an alternator loadmeter > installed so that you can see if the alternator is "working hard" > or "broke". I am going to try this one, before dismounting the generator from the engine. But from our last measuring, as indicated above, we believe the ROTAX alternator/generator has really passed away... That means 480 euros($600) + labour! Thanks again Carlos ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:40 AM PST US From: "Bill Denton" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery is not charging --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" Could someone possibly list the drawing numbers for "the Bob's Rotax diagrams"? Thanks! -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Carlos Trigo Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery is not charging --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" Bill, Matt, Bob Thanks for your answers. From: "Matt Prather" > > Do you know if the system ever actually charged the battery - kept the bus > voltage above 14v? In other words, was the system wired correctly? Yes. Since 1999 > When you say "measuring the generator output" what do you mean? With the > engine running? Yes, at idle but also at around 2500RPM. But yesterday, when we measured between the 2 yellow wires of the generator not connected to the system, we got 0 (zero, nada), therefore the down indicated conclusion. > If you don't have a schematic of the system, draw > one up - take a notepad, pencil and DMM to the hangar and doodle > it out > nothing fancy. Compare what's doodled to what's on one of > the Bob's Rotax diagrams. Even if the system is designed/installed > okay, the exercise will help you debug the system. I'll try to do it, because the iniyial builder didn't do it and I have none. > Does the system have an alternator disconnect relay? No "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: > Get the battery tender. Hook it up for 24 hours or more. Fly the > airplane while watching voltage and report your findings back > to us. It would also be helpful to have an alternator loadmeter > installed so that you can see if the alternator is "working hard" > or "broke". I am going to try this one, before dismounting the generator from the engine. But from our last measuring, as indicated above, we believe the ROTAX alternator/generator has really passed away... That means 480 euros($600) + labour! Thanks again Carlos ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:21 AM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: DC to DC converter --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca do not archive These guys are cheap and have exactly what you need-- http://www.astrodyne.com Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 (508) 764-2072 "...Beans for supper tonight, six o'clock. Navy beans cooked in Oklahoma ham... Got to eat 'em with a spoon, raw onions and cornbread; nothing else...." --Will Rogers ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:26 AM PST US From: "Jim Baker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery is not charging --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" > > When you say "measuring the generator output" what do you mean? > > With the engine running? > > Yes, at idle but also at around 2500RPM. But yesterday, when we > measured between the 2 yellow wires of the generator not connected to > the system, we got 0 (zero, nada), therefore the down indicated > conclusion. Carlos, You do know that the output from the two yellow wires will be AC? A separate rectifier is used to convert to DC. If measuring AC with digital multimeter set to DC you'll get 0 (zip,nada)....... Jim Baker 580.788.2779 '71 SV, 492TC Elmore City, OK ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:12 AM PST US Received-SPF: softfail (mta7: domain of transitioning trigo@mail.telepac.pt does not designate 85.138.31.28 as permitted sender) receiver=mta7; client_ip=85.138.31.28; envelope-from=trigo@mail.telepac.pt; From: "Carlos Trigo" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery is not charging --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Baker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery is not charging > Carlos, > > You do know that the output from the two yellow wires will be AC? > A separate rectifier is used to convert to DC. If measuring AC with > digital multimeter set to DC you'll get 0 (zip,nada)....... > > > Jim Baker Thanks Jim To be honest, I didn't know, but the electric guy who is helping me does know that. Carlos ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:01:21 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Battery is not charging --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:33 AM 9/10/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" > >Could someone possibly list the drawing numbers for "the Bob's Rotax >diagrams"? > >Thanks! Figure Z-16 in http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11C.pdf BTW, if you have no output between the yellow leads from the alternator windings, there is an open circuit. Can you SEE the windings? They should be a dark caramel color. Do any wires wound around the poles of the stator winding look or smell burned? Your existing stator coil might be repairable if it's just a broken wire. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:02:42 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery is not charging --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 06:01 PM 9/10/2005 +0100, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carlos Trigo" > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jim Baker" >To: >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery is not charging > > > > Carlos, > > > > You do know that the output from the two yellow wires will be AC? > > A separate rectifier is used to convert to DC. If measuring AC with > > digital multimeter set to DC you'll get 0 (zip,nada)....... > > > > > > Jim Baker > >Thanks Jim > >To be honest, I didn't know, but the electric guy who is helping me does >know that. Oh, I mis-read one of the messages. Jim is dead on, you DO need to know the value of AC voltage coming off the stator winding's yellow leads. When I misunderstood the voltage to be zero, I was surprised. This coil assembly is quite robust. Failure to charge is more likely to be a problem with the rectifier/regulator. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:09:16 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: RE: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > > From: "Bruce Gray" > Date: 2005/09/08 Thu PM 09:56:40 CDT > To: > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > > How many 14v airplanes does RAC or Cessna make today? Zip..Nada..Zero > > Bruce > www.glasair.org Do you fly a Cessna or RAC a/c? Why is their opinion better for electrical systems if it's not better for a/c selection? ;-> Charlie ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:12:39 PM PST US From: "Bob McCallum" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: DC to DC converter --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob McCallum" Thanks very much Eric, I'll check them out. Bob McC From: "Eric M. Jones" > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca > > do not archive > > These guys are cheap and have exactly what you need-- > > http://www.astrodyne.com > > Regards, > Eric M. Jones ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:48 PM PST US From: "Dave & Brenda Emond" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV 10 wiring architecture --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave & Brenda Emond" I am a non electric guy, starting out from scratch. I was hoping to get answers and opinions on the following questions. How are Cessna, Mooney, Pipers ect wired up. Are they dual battery and dual alternator? I want to keep my RV10 practical, and careful not to overdo the redundancy part, keep it simple. I will in all probability end up with an electric panel, no vacuum. I like the Grand Rapids system, Chelton is a bit too far away in $$$ terms. I would probably back up with a Dynon, with an internal Nicad. I will be running LASAR magneto's. My first thoughts are single Alternator and single battery? All suggestions and points of view are appreciated. Dave Emond ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:07 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" system? Subject: Re: RE: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" system? At 02:07 PM 9/10/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > > > > > > From: "Bruce Gray" > > Date: 2005/09/08 Thu PM 09:56:40 CDT > > To: > > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Use a 28vdc alternator in 14vdc system? > > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > > > > How many 14v airplanes does RAC or Cessna make today? Zip..Nada..Zero > > > > Bruce > > www.glasair.org >Do you fly a Cessna or RAC a/c? Why is their opinion better for electrical >systems if it's not better for a/c selection? ;-> Gently Charlie, we know the BePipCesMo guys are hard pressed just to stay in business under the worst of economic and working conditions; making detailed evolutionary refinements in on-board systems is simply impossible. Virtually EVERY decision for making changes has to be made under the albatross of, "what will it cost us to get dispensation and blessings from the East?" I'm told the cost of implementing a change to one sheet of paper describing a part of our products can cost 5 to 7 $thousands$ by the time everyone in our business with an interest in that part is properly aware of the change and the changes are carved into the stone of what has been euphemistically called "configuration management." I've had conversations with my contemporaries at RAC about what goes on in the OBAM aviation community and nearly to a man, they all look wistful and say, "Gee . . . I wish we could do that out here." If any of us could make a living in OBAM aircraft, we'd all be working for somebody else but the BePipCesMo crowd. Alas, that same over-regulated, exclusively marketed line of products is still producing a huge cash flow. As long as that river of cash is sufficient for each of us to get a tiny hook into it and snag off enough for a living, we'll hang around. There are still some fun days. Took a Saturday morning today to put my data acquisition system on a Beechjet and track down a malfunction in a tail deice system. This problem has plagued my boss and the airplane's owners for months. They've already spent a bucket of money on the usual but inadequate isolation techniques. There are few things that will bring me out to the airport on Saturday morning (or in an ice storm) and this was one of them. It was a GREAT day. In the mean time, let's be mindful of what's gone before us both for the rich history of experience and as environments for learning. We are all graduating from "Certified U" and striking out on our own. Some of us will found new institutions. Some will be successful, others will not. But our mission here on the List should not be to judge ACTIONS of either OBAMdom or SPAMdom but to glean the simple-ideas from both that will provide foundation for building beyond where we are today in EITHER venue. The fact that a BE36 currently has a 14 or 28v system is irrelevant. What is relevant are the tradeoffs for the two systems in the ways we intend to apply them in an RV or Glasair and the selection of "tinker-toys" available to us for implementation of what ever decision is made. I'd love to take a stripped-out BE-36 and do a clean-slate systems installation. I'm sure we could take out lots of weight, add lots of value and maybe even pump some new market life into that venerable ol' beast . . . but some nicely built RV will still outrun it. BTW, it would still have a 28v, 100A and 20A alternators on it. Too much need for electric heat. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:09 PM PST US From: "Guy and Jill Foreman" Subject: AeroElectric-List: elec smoke smell --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Guy and Jill Foreman" I turned on my split batt/alt switch, and heard a rapid clicking noise, followed by a elec smoke smell. I turned of the batt switch, and the smell went away. I decided to replace the batt relay, but never did find out where the smell was coming from. I know something got hot, but cant find where it came from. Any suggestions? ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:38 PM PST US From: "brian bollaert" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV 10 wiring architecture --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "brian bollaert" Dave: You need to sign up to with the rv10-list@matronics.com E-mail Address(es): rv10-list@matronics.com this group will help you with such ?? as these . Brian Bollaert rv-10 builder #40200 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave & Brenda Emond" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV 10 wiring architecture > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave & Brenda Emond" > > > I am a non electric guy, starting out from scratch. I was hoping to get > answers and opinions on the following questions. > > How are Cessna, Mooney, Pipers ect wired up. Are they dual battery and dual > alternator? > > I want to keep my RV10 practical, and careful not to overdo the redundancy > part, keep it simple. > > I will in all probability end up with an electric panel, no vacuum. I like > the Grand Rapids system, Chelton is a bit too far away in $$$ terms. I would > probably back up with a Dynon, with an internal Nicad. I will be running > LASAR magneto's. My first thoughts are single Alternator and single battery? > > All suggestions and points of view are appreciated. > > Dave Emond > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:32:10 PM PST US From: Richard Riley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: elec smoke smell --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Riley Others will, I'm sure, have better suggestions. But I'd start off with have a halon extinguisher handy. At 05:15 PM 9/10/05, Guy and Jill Foreman wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Guy and Jill Foreman" > > >I turned on my split batt/alt switch, and heard a rapid clicking noise, >followed by a elec smoke smell. I turned of the batt switch, and the smell >went away. I decided to replace the batt relay, but never did find out where >the smell was coming from. I know something got hot, but cant find where it >came from. Any suggestions? > > >-- -- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:51 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV 10 wiring architecture --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton On 10 Sep 2005, at 16:01, Dave & Brenda Emond wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave & Brenda Emond" > > > > I am a non electric guy, starting out from scratch. I was hoping to > get > answers and opinions on the following questions. > > How are Cessna, Mooney, Pipers ect wired up. Are they dual battery > and dual > alternator? > > I want to keep my RV10 practical, and careful not to overdo the > redundancy > part, keep it simple. > > I will in all probability end up with an electric panel, no vacuum. > I like > the Grand Rapids system, Chelton is a bit too far away in $$$ > terms. I would > probably back up with a Dynon, with an internal Nicad. I will be > running > LASAR magneto's. My first thoughts are single Alternator and single > battery? > > All suggestions and points of view are appreciated. > How will you use the aircraft? VFR only? VFR and IFR? Day only? Day and night? Given how you will use the aircraft, and the electrically powered equipment, what are the consequences of a complete electrical failure? If you will be able to get the aircraft on the ground with an acceptable workload following a complete electrical failure, then you don't need to spend extra time/money/weight/maintenance cost on additional alternators and batteries. If you plan to do cross country flying, do you want the ability to get back home following an alternator or battery failure? Or, are you prepared to replace the alternator or battery while on the road? Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8