AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Fri 09/23/05


Total Messages Posted: 12



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:10 AM - Choices, choices, choices . . . (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     2. 06:22 AM - Maxi In-line Source (Pete Howell)
     3. 07:25 AM - VR for PM Alternator (Rodney Dunham)
     4. 07:32 AM - Re: Re: degaussing (demagnetizing) my roll bar (Jim Jewell)
     5. 09:46 AM - Re: 80 Amp Shunt  (Speedy11@aol.com)
     6. 11:40 AM - Re: Re: degaussing (demagnetizing) my roll bar (Richard Tasker)
     7. 02:21 PM - Wiring details for Van's IR Alternator? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 02:22 PM - Re: Maxi In-line Source (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 02:46 PM - FMS 5000 and shadin Microflo-L (F. ILMAIN)
    10. 02:59 PM - Re: Wiring details for Van's IR Alternator? (Steve Hunt)
    11. 03:03 PM - Re: Wiring details for Van's IR Alternator? (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
    12. 09:29 PM - Re: Wiring details for Van's IR Alternator? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:10:18 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Choices, choices, choices . . .
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> >Bob: > >I am a long time student of yours and have read the book. I am about half >way through an RV10 project. > >The folks who will build the panel and I have been discussing bus >architecture. This will be an all electric panel and probably a >non-electrically dependent engine. > >They are suggesting and I agree that two alts (60 and SD 20) and B& C >controllers along with a single battery will be a good choice. > >They are also suggesting that both alternators can power the main bus and >avionics busses simultaneously. (I know they still like an avionics bus). >They propose setting the main alternator contoller at 14.2 or so and the >back up SD20 a volt or so lower. Along with this they wire waring lights >that alert steady when bus voltage drops to the backup level or below and >flashes if the load should exceed 20 amps thereby alerting the pilot to >reduce the loads. > >This architecture seems similar to Z13 without the alternate feed path and >diode. Actually Z-12 >Can this be done safely in your opinion? If so, what downside do you see >in eliminating the endurance bus and alternate feed path for it. > >Thanks for your advice. There is nothing UNsafe about any of the architectures that have flown on aircraft since day-one as long as the pilot understands system limitations and is prepared to deal with failures in an educated and pre-planned manner. A system with all the bells and whistles in the world is only marginally "safer" than a J-3 with a wind generator and flooded battery if the pilot is unable or unwilling to make good choices about how he uses this equipment, the environments into which he flies and when to "call it a day". The architecture being described by your panel shop is equal to that being installed in hundreds of certified ships (Z-12 with an avionics bus instead of an endurance bus). But that's the opinion of someone who will never be called upon to plan and skillfully execute a mission with your aircraft. He/she will never have to deal with whatever levels of risk presented by the choice of hardware and how it's all wired up. My opinion is equally without value. You're the customer. If you want to wire your airplane like a 1970 C-172 (I fly airplanes like that all the time) and can operate it with confidence in the face of whatever risks of failure are present, then it's a SAFE flight system of which the airplane is only a small part and YOU are the critical part. The architectures offered in the 'Connection are not about SAFETY but about OPTIONS. It's about failure mode effects analysis and understanding what is or is not a good thing to do when something breaks. Modern alternators and well maintained batteries in a C-172 architecture have a small fraction the risks of leaving you in the dark compared to 50 years ago. Anything you do above and beyond that only improves on your ability to deal effectively with what are already very tiny risks without having to "call it a day" because something broke. So, the best advice I can offer is don't let your panel shop drive your decisions as a customer. They, (like the List and the 'Connection) should be offering OPTIONS along with lucid explanations as to features each option offers. Ultimately, you need to decide which options are most useful whereupon you as the CUSTOMER tells your SUPPLIER what it is you want to purchase. Bob . . .


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:22:39 AM PST US
    From: "Pete Howell" <pete.howell@gecko-group.com>
    Subject: Maxi In-line Source
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Pete Howell" <pete.howell@gecko-group.com> I found the maxifuse inline holder here: http://racepartsolutions.com/products.asp?pg=9 Nice guy to deal with. I asked to keep the shipping cost down and he just tossed it in an envelope and charged me $2. It got here (MN) in 2 days. Pete


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:25:42 AM PST US
    From: "Rodney Dunham" <rdunhamtn@hotmail.com>
    Subject: VR for PM Alternator
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" <rdunhamtn@hotmail.com> I've just purchased a Jabiru 3300 powered OBAM sky skorcher project. 90% down, 90% to go. The Jab comes with a "solid state" voltage regulator. I understand that the PM Alternator (I think they call it a generator) was initially 3 phase but Jabiru changed to single phase because it was eating VRs. What's the difference? Since I have become a devotee of the Connection I have wired a Rotax 912UL powered sky skorcher with its Ducati ignition and VR with the predictable good results. I used architecture almost identical to Z-20, except for the LV warn system. It wasn't on the "small Rotax system" at the time. My question is this: Should I just go ahead and use the stock VR and add OVR/crowbar protection and LV warn as per Z-20 OR is there a VR out there for PM alternators with built-in OVP, LVW and temp compensation? My battery, battery contactor, starter contactor and VR are all mounted close to each other on the firewall inside the engine compartment in a tightly cowled airplane. It was that way when I bought the project. RDunham,MD.


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:32:47 AM PST US
    From: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
    Subject: Re: degaussing (demagnetizing) my roll bar
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net> I do not recall seeing this solution being suggested; I found my roll bar to be mildly magnetic and sought to eliminate the magnetism. On the suggestion of a friend. I took the roll bar to the non destructive testing division of our local aero engine rebuild shop. They put that nasty magnetism to death in about five minutes, four of which involved set up time to carry out the industrial strength version of the death by electrocution described below. The good folks did the deed for a smile and a thankyou. Jim in Kelowna - the wings are painted (snip) > Eliminating magnetization is a process of scrambling the domains by > alternating the magnetic field while slowly reducing the field to zero. > A > spool of wire, and a variable output transformer (variac) are the tools > you > need; but how much and where is your individual experiment.


    Message 5


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    Time: 09:46:26 AM PST US
    From: Speedy11@aol.com
    Subject: Re: 80 Amp Shunt
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com In a message dated 09/23/05 3:08:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com writes: >Does anyone know where to buy a 80amp/50mv shunt for an Electronics >International >volt/amp meter. I bought a used digital meter at Oshkosh and it did not have >the shunt. I have found 50 and 75 amp from a marine supply but not the 80 >amp version. Do I presume correctly that the instrument is intended to read 0-100% as a loadmeter? I.e., 50mv = 100 on instrument? If so, then sizing the shunt to the alternator is the appropriate thing to do. 80A is a bit of an odd size but shunt fab shops can built to suit. If you can find a shunt just over 80A, like 100A, it's easy to re-calibrate it by cutting down the shunt element with a file. I can do it for you if you can't find an exact 80. Also, you could consider using the 75A shunt . . . it would simply "derate" your alternator by 5A. You can buy 80 Amp, 50mv shunts for $25 from B&C at http://www.bandcspecialty.com/cgi-bin/ez-catalog/cat_display.cgi?15X358218. Just select the size you need. Stan Sutterfield


    Message 6


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    Time: 11:40:13 AM PST US
    From: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
    Subject: Re: degaussing (demagnetizing) my roll bar
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net> This is probably not permanent magnetism of the rollbar but just the fact that a potentially magnetic material (steel in this case) distorts the earth's magnetic field in the vicinity of the rollbar and thereby causes the compass needle to point in a direction not entirely aligned with the earth's normal magnetic field alignment. This is why any piece of avionics that uses a magnetometer (electronic compass) cautions you to place it far away from any steel. Lines of magnetic of force tend to (will) take the easiest path to connect from the north pole to the south pole. Any potentially magnetic material (whether it is magnetized or not) will provide a much easier path than air. When this happens, the compass still aligns with the resultant lines of force - but the lines of force no longer align with what is expected. If the roll bar is actually magnetized then the effect is typically much more pronounced. A magnetized rollbar likely has a much greater magnetic field than the earth. The only way I know of to determine which of the two above cases is causing the compass to move, aside from using gigantic Helmholtz coils, is to rotate the rollbar (or entire plane) around the compass rose, while holding the compass in the same position relative to the rollbar and observe the compass needle. If the rollbar is magnetized the needle will likely continue to point to roughly the same direction relative to the rollbar. If it is just the distortion of the earth's magnetic field, then the compass will rotate as the rollbar is rotated. None of this is particularly pertinent except one should understand that, just because a compass needle moves in the vicinity of a piece of steel, the steel is not necessarily magnetized - so demagnetizing it in that case would have no effect. My $0.02... Dick Tasker owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > >Mickey, > >I checked my weldments (rollbar and weldment behind pilot - forgot its name) >with an old fashioned very cheap needle compass, it does indeed move >substantially when close to the welds, and on some other locations. To do >this, I needed to be within 1 to 3 inches of the area. A foot from the >weldment did not deflect the compass. If you were to hang the compass from >the top of the roll bar, I think that you might have an issue, however if >you were to use a panel mounted compass, rollbar magnetization would most >probably not be an issue. My 2cents. > >Take care, >Michele Delsol >RV8 very slow build fuselage > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner- >>aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mickey Coggins >>Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 8:16 PM >>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: degaussing (demagnetizing) my roll bar >> >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick- >>matronics@rv8.ch> >> >> >> >>>Eliminating magnetization is a process of scrambling the domains by >>>alternating the magnetic field while slowly reducing the field to zero. >>> >>> >>A >> >> >>>spool of wire, and a variable output transformer (variac) are the tools >>> >>> >>you >> >> >>>need; but how much and where is your individual experiment. >>> >>> >>Hi Eric, >> >>Thanks for the info. Do you think it's a waste of time to do this? >> >>Thanks, >>Mickey >> >>-- >>Mickey Coggins >>http://www.rv8.ch/ >>#82007 finishing >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 02:21:59 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Wiring details for Van's IR Alternator?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> Had two folks call me in the last two days asking about what to do with the three wires that come out of the connector on Van's current 60A alternator offering. Does anyone have that data they can share? Thanks! Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 02:22:53 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Maxi In-line Source
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 08:23 AM 9/23/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Pete Howell" ><pete.howell@gecko-group.com> > > >I found the maxifuse inline holder here: > >http://racepartsolutions.com/products.asp?pg=9 > >Nice guy to deal with. I asked to keep the shipping cost down and he >just tossed it in an envelope and charged me $2. It got here (MN) in >2 days. > >Pete Cool! Good data point Pete. Thanks! Bob . . .


    Message 9


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    Time: 02:46:07 PM PST US
    From: "F. ILMAIN" <f_ilmain@hotmail.com>
    Subject: FMS 5000 and shadin Microflo-L
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "F. ILMAIN" <f_ilmain@hotmail.com> Anyone has experience wiring a Microflo-L to a an FMS 5000 Loran ? Would need the manual / diagram for the FMS 5000 What happened to ARNAV website ? Thanks Franck


    Message 10


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    Time: 02:59:02 PM PST US
    From: "Steve Hunt" <stephen.hunt19@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: Wiring details for Van's IR Alternator?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Hunt" <stephen.hunt19@btinternet.com> Hi Bob, I asked the same question last week. This was Van's reply. By this I take it to mean that the red and green leads are the power to the fields and that the "earth" lead (blue) is not used. Steve > The red and green should be connected and the blue is not used... > the case of the alt. is EARTH (:>) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wiring details for Van's IR Alternator? > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > <nuckollsr@cox.net> > > Had two folks call me in the last two days asking about > what to do with the three wires that come out of the connector > on Van's current 60A alternator offering. > > Does anyone have that data they can share? Thanks! > > Bob . . . > > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 03:03:02 PM PST US
    Subject: Wiring details for Van's IR Alternator?
    From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com> The center terminal is not used (this is the voltage sensing terminal) the left terminal (as you look at the back of the alt) Is the ignition terminal. Right termainal is the L or lamp terminal commonly used to detect if the thing is charging...I vaguely remember that Vans has you join these two terminals together (I.e does not use a lamp) Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wiring details for Van's IR Alternator? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" --> <nuckollsr@cox.net> Had two folks call me in the last two days asking about what to do with the three wires that come out of the connector on Van's current 60A alternator offering. Does anyone have that data they can share? Thanks! Bob . . .


    Message 12


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    Time: 09:29:09 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Wiring details for Van's IR Alternator?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 03:02 PM 9/23/2005 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" ><frank.hinde@hp.com> > >The center terminal is not used (this is the voltage sensing terminal) >the left terminal (as you look at the back of the alt) Is the ignition >terminal. Right termainal is the L or lamp terminal commonly used to >detect if the thing is charging...I vaguely remember that Vans has you >join these two terminals together (I.e does not use a lamp) > >Frank Hmmm . . . the folks are telling me that there are red, blue and green pigtails on the supplied connector. I'd really be interested in seeing a copy of Van's wiring diagram which I presume is part of his wire kit and/or supplied with the alternator. Bob . . .




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