Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:38 PM - FW: Wiring details for Vans 60A alternator (Glen Matejcek)
2. 04:22 PM - Re: MAGNETO TIMING BUSS BOX PLANS (RV4WGH@AOL.COM)
3. 05:28 PM - Alternator Speed (william rumburg)
4. 05:58 PM - Magnetized Roll Bar (Dennis Johnson)
5. 06:31 PM - Re: Alternator Speed (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
6. 07:29 PM - Re: Alternator Speed (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 07:41 PM - Re: Magnetized Roll Bar (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 07:53 PM - ELT Antenna (Frank & Phyllis)
9. 08:13 PM - Re: Magnetized Roll Bar (Eric M. Jones)
10. 08:57 PM - Re: ELT Antenna (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 09:02 PM - Re: (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 09:18 PM - Re: Alternator Speed (Jim Jewell)
13. 10:45 PM - Re: Alternator Speed (Mickey Coggins)
Message 1
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Subject: | FW: Wiring details for Vans 60A alternator |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
Glen Matejcek
aerobubba@earthlink.net
----- Original Message -----
From: Glen Matejcek
Subject: Wiring details for Vans 60A alternator
Hi Bob et al-
I've been off the list for a while and missed your original request for alternator
info. As it happens, I've been doing some research into this very topic of
late, and have made some interesting discoveries. First, Van's input was that
the exact color of the wires in the 3 wire plug changes now and then, and shouldn't
be used as a basis for wiring the alternator up. They did say that the
3 spade connectors in the plug assembly are in a 'pi' configuration, 2 blades
being parallel and one at right angles. The odd blade is not used, and the
2 parallel ones are tied together and run to the ALT switch.
Second, I found a high volume overhauler who seemed very knowledgeable and willing
to share his expertise. According to him, that top spade in the pi, the
one at right angles, in the case of vans specific unit (Vans #14684, ND unit #
14824) is the 'D' terminal, 'D' as in 'dummy'. It's not connected to anything.
The left leg of the pi is the 'I' terminal. 'I' stands for 'Ignition', which
is what that terminal connects to. The right leg of the pi is 'L' for 'Light',
and connects to the ALT idiot light.
The most interesting thing is that the labelling of the terminals has only to do
with the wire routing, and not much to do with their function. The 'I' terminal
is actually the voltage sense input, and in a car would be fed anytime the
ignition was on. The 'L' terminal is the 'ON' signal input. It would be connected
to the 'run' position of the ignition switch via the idiot light lamp.
With the ignition switch in 'run', a +V signal with little or no current turns
the ALT on, but won't light the lamp. With the ALT inop for any reason, the
'L' terminal goes to ground and the lamp illuminates. Curiously, this implies
that a failure of the ALT lamp will cause the alternator to shut down, and
without the idiot light coming on. Last, removing the +V from the 'L' terminal
does shut the alternator down per it's spec.
Hope this info is useful-
Glen Matejcek
aerobubba@earthlink.net
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: MAGNETO TIMING BUSS BOX PLANS |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: RV4WGH@aol.com
While I think the kit information that was posted is most likely the best
option, I located a "how-to" article from the May 1992 issue of SPORT AVIATION,
page 64, that has a schematic on how to build one.
Personally, I am very fortunate to have a former field service engineer for
Slick Electro who has a hangar about 200 feet from mine!
HAPPY FLYING SAFELY,
Wally Hunt
Rockford, IL
RV-4 Finishing Kit
Message 3
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Subject: | Alternator Speed |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "william rumburg" <lancair403@earthlink.net>
Alternator rpm = engine rpm X (engine pulley diameter/alternator pulley
diameter).
My Lycoming has the 7.5" (small) pulley and my alternator has a 2.75"
pulley, which I believe to be typical. This results in alternator speeds in
the 7,000 rpm range during cruise, which I believe to be excessive. A 4"
diameter pulley is available for my alternator, which would reduce it's
speed to the 4,000 rpm range and, I believe, produce full-rated output.
I spoke with Mark Landoll who told me that alternators typically require a
minimum of 1,000 rpm to produce a stable output, but he didn't know what
rpm is usually required to produce full-rated output. I believe it to be in
the 4,000 rpm range. He did agree that, while alternator bearings seem to
hold up well to high speeds, lower speeds would produce less stress and
vibration.
Is anyone on the LML knowledgeable of the alternator speed typically
required to produce full rated output?
Bill Rumburg
N403WR (Sonic bOOm)
Message 4
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Subject: | Magnetized Roll Bar |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis Johnson" <pinetownd@volcano.net>
I must be missing something here regarding the magnetized roll bar. A compass
needle is a magnet and magnets are attracted to iron. So a compass needle will
always point towards the iron in the steel roll bar, whether it is magnetized
or not. Therefore using a compass is not a method to determine if the roll
bar is magnetized.
To determine if it is magnetized, why not put some non-magnetized iron filings
on it; if they stick, then it's magnetized, and if they don't it's not. (But
I suppose that opens up the issue of how do you determine that your iron filings
aren't magnetized. I suppose you could heat them to cherry red and then allow
them to cool immediately prior to the test?)
Note: I'm using the colloquial term "magnets are attracted to iron" because it
is accurately descriptive of the current situation, knowing that a more rigorous
physics explanation would be different. But the difference would not be relevant
to this discussion.
Dennis Johnson
Lancair Legacy #257
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Alternator Speed |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 09/25/2005 6:29:18 PM Central Standard Time,
lancair403@earthlink.net writes:
Is anyone on the LML knowledgeable of the alternator speed typically
required to produce full rated output?
>>>
Not exactly sure of my alternator speeds, but I also have the smaller pulley
on my E3D and a standard B&C L-40 and el cheapo generic regulator- no problems
whatsover keeping my Panasonic 20 Ah battery fully charged at all times...
From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark Phillips RV-6A 235 hours & do not archive
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Alternator Speed |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 08:23 PM 9/25/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "william rumburg"
><lancair403@earthlink.net>
>
>Alternator rpm = engine rpm X (engine pulley diameter/alternator pulley
>diameter).
>My Lycoming has the 7.5" (small) pulley and my alternator has a 2.75"
>pulley, which I believe to be typical. This results in alternator speeds in
>the 7,000 rpm range during cruise, which I believe to be excessive. A 4"
>diameter pulley is available for my alternator, which would reduce it's
>speed to the 4,000 rpm range and, I believe, produce full-rated output.
>I spoke with Mark Landoll who told me that alternators typically require a
>minimum of 1,000 rpm to produce a stable output, but he didn't know what
>rpm is usually required to produce full-rated output. I believe it to be in
>the 4,000 rpm range. He did agree that, while alternator bearings seem to
>hold up well to high speeds, lower speeds would produce less stress and
>vibration.
>Is anyone on the LML knowledgeable of the alternator speed typically
>required to produce full rated output?
Here's a typical output current curve for an
automotive alternator. The population of
mfgrs and part numbers will "wiggle" a bit
from this curve but it's probably plus or minus
10 percent for the whole lot.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/80A_OutCurve.gif
It depends on what you want . . . and what the tradeoffs
are. If you'd like to have good output at ramp idle and
taxi speeds (most folk really like the low speed
capability in both cars and airplanes), then leave the
pulley small. If you're worried about bearing and brush
life, know that B&C has been selling the L40/L60 series
machines for about 15 years with thousands of units in
service. The first wearout in B&C history arrived back
in Newton about a year ago . . . needed brushes . . .
after 2200 hours in service. These alternators run nicely
at over 10,000 rpm in cruise with no evidence of having
"over stressed" anything due to the high speeds.
If it were my airplane, I'd leave the small pulley
on . . . especially if your ring gear pulley is smaller
than most . . . you've already taken a hit on pre-flight
output capability.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Magnetized Roll Bar |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 05:55 PM 9/25/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis Johnson"
><pinetownd@volcano.net>
>
>I must be missing something here regarding the magnetized roll bar. A
>compass needle is a magnet and magnets are attracted to iron. So a
>compass needle will always point towards the iron in the steel roll bar,
>whether it is magnetized or not. Therefore using a compass is not a
>method to determine if the roll bar is magnetized.
Kinda . . . sorta. If you know how to "probe" a magnetized
object with a small compass, you can look for and perhaps
identify two or more "poles". It's true that any ferrous
material will attract EITHER end of a compass needle.
>To determine if it is magnetized, why not put some non-magnetized iron
>filings on it; if they stick, then it's magnetized, and if they don't it's
>not. (But I suppose that opens up the issue of how do you determine that
>your iron filings aren't magnetized. I suppose you could heat them to
>cherry red and then allow them to cool immediately prior to the test?)
Most folks in the business use a linear hall effect device
or other detector of magnetic fields.
>Note: I'm using the colloquial term "magnets are attracted to iron"
>because it is accurately descriptive of the current situation, knowing
>that a more rigorous physics explanation would be different. But the
>difference would not be relevant to this discussion.
The magnetized structure threads have popped up and gone
dozens of times in the various interest groups for years. Having
conducted magnetic effects tests in the lab for decades using
plain ol' wet compasses, I can tell you that it takes one
hell of a magnet to have much effect on a compass at typical
separations between structure and compass. The last (and only)
case I worked on an airplane was an SD20 install on Bonanzas. Turning
the standby alternator on deflected the compass as much as 20
degrees on some headings . . . . this was with the compass mounted
on the glare shield deck. Just moving the compass up to
an already certified windshield mount reduced the effects to
2 degrees or less worst case. This was a movement of perhaps
8" vertically in the airplane.
I experimented with some magnetic shielding for the rear
of the SD20 and it didn't take much iron to corral the loose
field flux but it would have required a re-certification
of the SD20 installation. So, the lesser to two evils was
move the compass a little bit.
I cite this example to show (1) how the only time I've
seen a problem involved a very strong magnetic source and
(2) very little repositioning reduced the problem to
insignificant levels. Magnetic fields like to stay very
close to home and do not venture out far . . . likelihood
of an inadvertent magnetization of structure being a problem
is small . . . and reducing it to insignificance shouldn't
be difficult.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Frank & Phyllis <frank.phyllis@mindspring.com>
Is a ground plane necessary for an ELT antenna? I noticed some builders
have mounted the antenna inside the tube/fabric fuselage with only a
small bracket for the antenna? Why wouldn't a ground plane be needed?
Frank
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Magnetized Roll Bar |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dennis Johnson"
<pinetownd@volcano.net>
>I must be missing something here regarding the magnetized roll bar. A
>compass
>needle is a magnet and magnets are attracted to iron. So a compass needle
>will
>always point towards the iron in the steel roll bar, whether it is
>magnetized
>or not. Therefore using a compass is not a method to determine if the roll
>bar is magnetized.
>To determine if it is magnetized, why not put some non-magnetized iron
>filings
>on it; if they stick, then it's magnetized, and if they don't it's not.
>(But
>I suppose that opens up the issue of how do you determine that your iron
>filings
>aren't magnetized. I suppose you could heat them to cherry red and then
>allow
>them to cool immediately prior to the test?)
>Note: I'm using the colloquial term "magnets are attracted to iron"
>because it
>is accurately descriptive of the current situation, knowing that a more
>rigorous
>physics explanation would be different. But the difference would not be
>relevant
>to this discussion. Dennis Johnson Lancair Legacy #257
Hi Dennis,
I urge interested parties to experiment with soup cans, etc. (I'm not
kidding). It is quite simple to determine if the metal can (or roll bar) is
magnetized, since a non-magnetized ferromagnetic material will cause the
same reaction with either the north or south end of the compass needle. But
a compass needle will be wildly biased and behave differently depending on
which end of the compass needle points to a magnetized metal part.
Roll bars can be magnetized slowly just by sitting around, or quickly by a
lightning strike, or a sudden current surge in the airframe ground, or it
got that way in welding or forming. Like termites in lumber, sometimes you
just buy the material that way.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"Nothing is too wonderful to be true."
James Clerk Maxwell, discoverer of electromagnetism
"Too much of a good thing can be wonderful."
Mae West, discoverer of personal magnetism
Message 10
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:49 PM 9/25/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Frank & Phyllis
><frank.phyllis@mindspring.com>
>
>Is a ground plane necessary for an ELT antenna? I noticed some builders
>have mounted the antenna inside the tube/fabric fuselage with only a
>small bracket for the antenna? Why wouldn't a ground plane be needed?
>Frank
Almost any conductor will radiate and, therefore, can be called
an "antenna" too. There's been more than one individual craft some
form antenna that (1) departed from the best we know how to do
and/or (2) was placed in service without exploring its characteristics
with instrumentation and reported "it works great for me."
Bottom line is that the best we know how to do has been understood
for nearly a century and yes, your skepticism is valid. Folks can
probably hear his triggered ELT across the field but it's not
going to work as well as it might with a more considered
and well crafted installation.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 11:00 AM 9/24/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net>
>
>hi all,
> my elec. turn coor. has a port with 3 female pins. the attachment that
> was supplied that you attach the wires to is as long as my house[ well,
> almost]. the turn coor. id too deep for my panel with this attachment. is
> there something out there that is a right angle or is there another means
> to attach the wires? i have an inch from the forward edge of the ort to
> my fuel tank.
> thanks in advance, bob noffs
It depends on what YOU are satisfied with. You can craft some very
short mating pins and solder wires to them that depart the joint
at right angles to the pin. Cover with heatshrink and retain with
some form of easily removed material . . . like hot glue.
I think this would stay in place nicely and accomplish what
you want. You'll want to avoid showing this to anyone else
on your field lest the have considerable fun at your
expense over the beer and pretzels.
Bob . . .
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Alternator Speed |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
Hi William,
I do not remember any comments or questions on the list about the
relationship between alternator pulley diameter and belt service life.
During the racing days of a past life we commonly ran engines well into the
7000 RPM range.
My guess is that the alternator likely exceeded twice that. Alternators
where standing up to that kind of use without much complaint.
Looking back now I wonder if we might have redirected at least some
percentage of horse power by using a larger pulley. Turning the alternator
above 12000 RPM most likely wastes energy as they don't seem to produce
usable added output approaching and or beyond that.
Bending the belt around a small pulley above 10,000 RPM most likely would
create heat that must reduce belt life.
Fan belts can take a lot of abuse. I just remembered a modified Corvair that
ate the occasional belt during hard runs. Corvairs had the worst fan belt
layout that I ever saw.
Turning the alternator at 7000 RPM while set up in cruse should not have
serious negative effects on the belt or the alternator with small pulley and
the low speed (idle) performance would be of benefit.
The large pulley might interfere with the cowling if you are an RV type.
happy flights,
Jim in Kelowna - installing windshield
----- Original Message -----
From: "william rumburg" <lancair403@earthlink.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator Speed
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "william rumburg"
> <lancair403@earthlink.net>
>
> Alternator rpm = engine rpm X (engine pulley diameter/alternator pulley
> diameter).
> My Lycoming has the 7.5" (small) pulley and my alternator has a 2.75"
> pulley, which I believe to be typical. This results in alternator speeds
> in
> the 7,000 rpm range during cruise, which I believe to be excessive. A 4"
> diameter pulley is available for my alternator, which would reduce it's
> speed to the 4,000 rpm range and, I believe, produce full-rated output.
> I spoke with Mark Landoll who told me that alternators typically require a
> minimum of 1,000 rpm to produce a stable output, but he didn't know what
> rpm is usually required to produce full-rated output. I believe it to be
> in
> the 4,000 rpm range. He did agree that, while alternator bearings seem to
> hold up well to high speeds, lower speeds would produce less stress and
> vibration.
> Is anyone on the LML knowledgeable of the alternator speed typically
> required to produce full rated output?
>
> Bill Rumburg
> N403WR (Sonic bOOm)
>
>
>
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Alternator Speed |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> Here's a typical output current curve for an
> automotive alternator. The population of
> mfgrs and part numbers will "wiggle" a bit
> from this curve but it's probably plus or minus
> 10 percent for the whole lot.
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/80A_OutCurve.gif
>
Just a quick question - was this alternator putting out
14.something volts the whole time, or does the voltage
change with the alternator speed?
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive
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