AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Fri 09/30/05


Total Messages Posted: 25



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:05 AM - Re: ND two-lead alternator question (James H Nelson)
     2. 06:12 AM - Re: Solid State Gyros (Ed Anderson)
     3. 06:22 AM - Re: Solid State Gyros (Dave Morris \)
     4. 06:32 AM - antennas (bob noffs)
     5. 06:34 AM - Re: Cage horizon when powering up ? (Gilles Thesee)
     6. 06:56 AM - Re: Cage horizon when powering up ? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     7. 07:01 AM - Re: ND two-lead alternator question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 07:11 AM - Re: ND two-lead alternator question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 07:24 AM - Re: VANs ND Alternator wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    10. 07:36 AM - antennas (bob noffs)
    11. 07:58 AM - Re: ND two-lead alternator question (Mickey Coggins)
    12. 08:02 AM - Re: antennas (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    13. 08:29 AM - Re: ND two-lead alternator question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    14. 08:29 AM - Re: ND two-lead alternator question (John Solecki)
    15. 08:32 AM - Re: antennas (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    16. 08:43 AM - Re: ND two-lead alternator question (Steve Hunt)
    17. 08:46 AM - Re: Was antennas Now Fuse Block Location (N5SL)
    18. 10:03 AM - Internal OVP (Speedy11@aol.com)
    19. 10:14 AM - Re: antennas (John Schroeder)
    20. 10:37 AM - Re: Re: Was antennas Now Fuse Block Location (David Henderson)
    21. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: Was antennas Now Fuse Block Location (Dave Morris \)
    22. 11:42 AM - Re: Solid State Gyros (Ed Anderson)
    23. 11:49 AM - Re: Re: Was antennas Now Fuse Block Location (N5SL)
    24. 12:25 PM - Re: VR for PM Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    25. 12:45 PM - CK breaker life..... (Jim Baker)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:05:05 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: ND two-lead alternator question
    From: James H Nelson <rv9jim@juno.com>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: James H Nelson <rv9jim@juno.com> Bob, That was well put. I use to hire engineers who were good in school. However, give them a wrench and have them go solve a problem on line-- most were lost. They had to be trained to do real world problem solving, preferable with a good experienced mechanic at their side. Jim Nelson (have a degree but real world problem solving got my jobs)


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:12:30 AM PST US
    From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Solid State Gyros
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> Makes sense, most of the less expensive (less than thousands of $$) solid state gyros have drift rates too high to be used for long term stability. They are fine for short term stability (camera stabilization, wireless mouse, etc) but need something like accelerometers, GPS and/or other Directional Source to provide long term stability. I researched these gyros when I was considering using one in a cheap wing leveler system - I decided by the time you add the long term stabilization system it was no longer a cheap solution {:>). However, as their quality improves and prices comes down it will open up a entire new dimension in the price of autopilots. Ed A ----- Original Message ----- From: "GMC" <gmcnutt@shaw.ca> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Solid State Gyros > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: GMC <gmcnutt@shaw.ca> > > > Hi Jon, > > I don't have my Trutrak yet because I am waiting for the autopilot > version. Initially I had some of the same reservations you are > expressing. If you want factual data call the company and they will > answer your concerns and questions. One thing that you may not be aware > of is the Trutrak ADI has a low airspeed warning for that nose high > descent you (and I) are worried about. > My understanding is that the little solid state gyros have a high drift > rate so they must be stabilized in roll by internal magnetometer or GPS > and in pitch by vertical speed. (-disclaimer I have not seen or flown > the Trutrak ADI.) > > Analyze what you actually need to know when instrument flying, attitude > or flight path, in most cases we use the attitude indicator to establish > flight path that must be verified on other instruments. The Trutrak > shows flight path plus V/S and low airspeed indications. Zero pitch on > the ADI will be level flight at any speed, zero pitch on the attitude > indicator will be level flight at only one airspeed. > > Jon Goguen wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen >><jon.goguen@umassmed.edu> >> >>Nonetheless, it doesn't give true attitude information, and could indicate >>negative pitch during a decent >>with the nose high, or zero pitch when hanging from the prop, etc. >> > Your A/H would also be giving information that would require > interpretation and verification by reference to other instruments, my > understanding is yes the ADI would show descent plus an airspeed > warning, and.highly unlikely that you would be hanging from the prop but > if you did what would your horizon show, maybe wild gyrations? > >> reason I think this instrument could be dangerous is because it may >>require one to do some extra thinking in unusual situations on the edge >>of real trouble. >> > The ADI has been reported to be easier to fly than a standard horizon > and presents more information on one instrument than the horizon so > there should be less chance of getting into trouble. > >> >>How does it behave if the static port ices >>over? Seems that I would have no interpretable pitch information, >> > Good question, not sure what the gyros would show without a stabilizing > static input or if the old "break the glass face" will work, I would > presume that an iced up pitot would cause erroneous or no low speed > warning. In any case IFR aircraft normally have alternate static, > (another plus for Van's static ports versus a Piper pitot/static setup, > I cannot imagine them icing up in a RV aircraft mounted on the aft > narrowing fuselage). > > > Take care, > > George in Langley B.C. > > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:22:32 AM PST US
    From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
    Subject: Re: Solid State Gyros
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com> That's what I'm doing with my own home-grown system. Assuming that DEGREES of pitch and bank are not nearly as important as RATE of CLIMB and RATE of TURN, I am not using any gyros at all, but using the GPS input to determine rate of turn and the Rocky Mountain MicroEncoder input to determine rate of climb, and then displaying those on an AH, along with a moving map and HSI. Equipped with an 8" touchscreen, you can touch any airport and it will not only give you heading, distance, and time to arrival, but if the autopilot is engaged, will fly there at whatever altitude you tell it. The airspeed indicator reads from a config file to display all your V speeds. System also includes a magnetic compass (RMI) interface, so it can instantaneously calculate actual winds information from ground speed (GPS), airspeed (RMI), ground track (RMI) and magnetic heading (RMI). Another bold assumption I'm making is that the heading-hold autopilot will also act as a wing-leveler, whereas an input from a Smart Level OEM module will detect non-coordinated roll deviations that can also be fed into the wing-leveler. All for under $2000 All still theoretical because my Dragonfly isn't flying yet, but I hope to be in 2006. Dave Morris www.MyGlassCockpit.com At 10:58 PM 9/29/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: GMC <gmcnutt@shaw.ca> > > >Hi Jon, > >I don't have my Trutrak yet because I am waiting for the autopilot >version. Initially I had some of the same reservations you are >expressing. If you want factual data call the company and they will >answer your concerns and questions. One thing that you may not be aware >of is the Trutrak ADI has a low airspeed warning for that nose high >descent you (and I) are worried about. >My understanding is that the little solid state gyros have a high drift >rate so they must be stabilized in roll by internal magnetometer or GPS >and in pitch by vertical speed. (-disclaimer I have not seen or flown >the Trutrak ADI.) > >Analyze what you actually need to know when instrument flying, attitude >or flight path, in most cases we use the attitude indicator to establish >flight path that must be verified on other instruments. The Trutrak >shows flight path plus V/S and low airspeed indications. Zero pitch on >the ADI will be level flight at any speed, zero pitch on the attitude >indicator will be level flight at only one airspeed. > >Jon Goguen wrote: > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen > <jon.goguen@umassmed.edu> > > > >Nonetheless, it doesn't give true attitude information, and could > indicate negative pitch during a decent > >with the nose high, or zero pitch when hanging from the prop, etc. > >


    Message 4


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    Time: 06:32:04 AM PST US
    From: "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net>
    Subject: antennas
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net> hi all, i have bobs book but i was looking for a detailed ''how to'' set of directions for building a comm antenna. bobs drawings leave too much to my imagination and i end up with more questions than when i started . i am not at all familiar with electronics. that i can even send this e mail is a miracle. anything on a web site anyone knows of? from bobs book it seems that the antenna is very basic stuff but i need more help shopping for parts for one thing. i was just looking and thinking about the best place for my fuse panel. i have no need to access the panel in flight but it still seems anywhere i put it i will be at least be under the panel , half in the airplanes door, and holding a flashlight in my mouth. now i am thinking those individual fuse holders next to the switch or instrument would be in every way more convenient. never have had a pleasant memory of changing a fuse in a car! anyone's thoughts on either of these subjects would be appreciated. bob noffs


    Message 5


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    Time: 06:34:46 AM PST US
    From: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
    Subject: Re: Cage horizon when powering up ?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> >>A buddy (who is also a test pilo)t advised us to always cage the horizon >>prior to flipping on the master switch. This is supposed to provide a >>longer service life. >>What is your opinion ? Is this advice worth a line in the start up check >>list, or is it just another hangar tale ? >> >> >> > > I've not heard this before. I'll call some instrument shops > and ask. I had an airplane in my rental fleet where we > recommended caging the gyro for parking and uncaging at > startup to speed up erection times . . . this was a suggestion > of the aircraft's owner. Never did test the premise to > see if it made a difference. Was this a new gyro? What does > the manufacturer suggest in the installation data? > > I don't think we've got a single airplane in the club that > even offers the manual caging capability. My initial reaction > is that it's probably more myth than fact. > > Hi Bob and all, To cage or not to cage before powering up our electric gyro ? Do you happen to have any more information ? Thanks, Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:56:57 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Cage horizon when powering up ?
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 03:34 PM 9/30/2005 +0200, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee ><Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> > > > >>A buddy (who is also a test pilo)t advised us to always cage the horizon > >>prior to flipping on the master switch. This is supposed to provide a > >>longer service life. > >>What is your opinion ? Is this advice worth a line in the start up check > >>list, or is it just another hangar tale ? > >> > >> > >> > > > > I've not heard this before. I'll call some instrument shops > > and ask. I had an airplane in my rental fleet where we > > recommended caging the gyro for parking and uncaging at > > startup to speed up erection times . . . this was a suggestion > > of the aircraft's owner. Never did test the premise to > > see if it made a difference. Was this a new gyro? What does > > the manufacturer suggest in the installation data? > > > > I don't think we've got a single airplane in the club that > > even offers the manual caging capability. My initial reaction > > is that it's probably more myth than fact. > > > > > >Hi Bob and all, > >To cage or not to cage before powering up our electric gyro ? >Do you happen to have any more information ? I've talk to two ol' instrument mechanics with square glasses who said about the same thing. Manufacturers of gyros have published various admonitions for use of their products to avoid unnecessary stresses and/or avoid obvious hazards to damage. There's no consistent thread among them except that the same items keep popping up from time to time. They were aware of no gyro products that would exhibit a demonstrably longer service life in a non-aerobatic aircraft based on caging habits of the pilot. Some gyros would erect faster if uncaged after power up but even that "benefit" was marginally useful . . . there were no properly operating gyros that wouldn't be fully stood up by the time the airplane was ready for takeoff no matter how it was oriented before power up. I'll keep nosing around. Bob . . .


    Message 7


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    Time: 07:01:04 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: ND two-lead alternator question
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 07:13 AM 9/30/2005 +0200, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins ><mick-matronics@rv8.ch> > > > 3000rpm is at the raggedy edge of minimum speed for > > regulation at full output so perhaps your experiment > > was incapable of yielding definitive data. You can > > rig a 12 or 24 volt transformer to "boost" the line > > voltage to the drill motor. Was this 3000 a measured > > value or nameplate value? > >Nameplate value. I'll see if I can find a way to spin >it faster. I need a new drill anyway. Thanks! Anything faster in a drill motor will be rare. Most drills of greater capacity get "more powerful" by gearing down for torque as a trade off for speed. I'll suggest you get a small AC motor with a pulley on it. Look for a 2-pole (3650 rpm) as opposed to 4-pole (1750 rpm). Of course, my choosing pulley sizes, you can use the 4-pole motor too. You can mount the motor to the bench with c-clamps and hand-hold the alternator for the purposes of conducting the experiment. We're not interested in performance under big loads, only behavior at speeds above minimum speed for regulation with a few amps load. Bob . . .


    Message 8


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    Time: 07:11:38 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: ND two-lead alternator question
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 10:40 PM 9/29/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N1deltawhiskey@aol.com > <snip> > > It is also my perception that someone's ability to explain something >logically and intelligently is an indication of their actual understanding >of the >subject. Exactly. The few times I've been tasked with hiring an engineer, I was more interested in seeing his workbench than I was in reading a resume. When I hired techs, I was fortunate enough to be serving on the curriculum advisory board for the Hutchinson Jr. College engineering technology school. I'd call Earl up near the end of the semester and ask for the names of his top 5 graduates. I think I hired 4 kids out of his program and was never disappointed. If you can't see their workbench, then talk to their teacher(s). Bob . . .


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:24:41 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: VANs ND Alternator wiring
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 11:09 AM 9/30/2005 +1200, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Carl Morgan" ><zk-vii@blueyonder.co.uk> > >Hi all, > >I've been following the list for a few years and watched IR/OR/OV debates >with "interest". > >Given the following assumption: > >We have a VANs ND IR 60 Amp alternator (w/ internal OV protection) (3 wire + >ground). It is acceptable to us and we want an idiot light directly from >the alternator and no external OV sensing. > >We want the light to come on with the main bus power, off during engine >running / battery charging. An emergency alternator 'off' control and >remote voltage sensing from the battery would be good if possible. > >Can someone suggest a possible wiring solution that utilises the >functionality of the ND alternator (based on the LAMP/RED, IG/GREEN, >S/BLUE - >http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Alternator_Data/ND_3-wire.jpg ). > >Currently I seem to have VANs not using the full functionality and Bob on >principle not happy with recommending a non OV / IR solution. Anybody care >to offer a solution? If you wire Van's offering per Van's instructions, you'll get an installation that will operate exactly as Van says it will. What we're debating is how does one integrate the modern internally regulated alternator into a aircraft under the traditional design goals for (a) absolute control by the pilot using a panel switch that can be operated any time without risk to the system or its components and (b) over-voltage protection to stave off effects of an admittedly rare but nonetheless catastrophic regulator failure. There are builders and advisors to builders who have opined that these design goals are archaic, unnecessary or even silly, Van's included. I've got no problem with that as long as the advisee UNDERSTANDS and accepts the tradeoffs for adopting the new paradigm in aircraft electrical power generation. I have made it my personal goal to deduce a way to incorporate the modern technology under the old design goals. Unfortunately, this task requires data taken from manufacturer's data sheets or testing done in the lab. Manufacturer's data is difficult if not impossible to access and the lab I need is outfitted with a 10 hp variable speed drive stand and load-banks. I took on a consulting task yesterday with one of my old employers who has such equipment standing idle 95% of the time. I'm going to see if I can trade some gray matter dump for lab time. We'll get there. It just takes time. In the mean time. Wire any product of you choice per the manufacturer's instructions and truck on with your project. Anything we deduce from the planned experiments will be easily added enhancements to existing installations. There's no reason to slow progress on your project or loose any sleep over it either. Bob . . . >Thanks, > >Carl > >PS: This is part of a dual ALT, dual Battery (Z-14) configuration - the >second alt will be external OR, OV based. Both busses will have active >Voltage / Amp monitoring. > >-- >ZK-VII - RV 7A QB - wiring >Cromwell, New Zealand >-- > > >-- > > >-- incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Bob . . . -------------------------------------------------------- < Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition > < of man. Advances which permit this norm to be > < exceeded -- here and there, now and then -- are the > < work of an extremely small minority, frequently > < despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed > < by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny > < minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes > < happens) is driven out of a society, the people > < then slip back into abject poverty. > < > < This is known as "bad luck". > < -Lazarus Long- > <------------------------------------------------------> http://www.aeroelectric.com


    Message 10


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    Time: 07:36:40 AM PST US
    From: "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net>
    Subject: antennas
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net> hi all, just came from my study[the bathroom] and it occurred to me that if i use individual fuse holders in the panels then every wire that runs from the bus bar to that fuse is unprotected from a short. if this is true that is enough to rule that out? bob noffs


    Message 11


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    Time: 07:58:49 AM PST US
    From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
    Subject: Re: ND two-lead alternator question
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch> >>> 3000rpm is at the raggedy edge of minimum speed for >>> regulation at full output so perhaps your experiment >>> was incapable of yielding definitive data. You can >>> rig a 12 or 24 volt transformer to "boost" the line >>> voltage to the drill motor. Was this 3000 a measured >>> value or nameplate value? >> >>Nameplate value. I'll see if I can find a way to spin >>it faster. I need a new drill anyway. Thanks! > > > Anything faster in a drill motor will be rare. Most > drills of greater capacity get "more powerful" by > gearing down for torque as a trade off for speed. Yep - found this out this morning at the hardware store! > I'll suggest you get a small AC motor with a pulley > on it. Look for a 2-pole (3650 rpm) as opposed to > 4-pole (1750 rpm). Of course, my choosing pulley sizes, > you can use the 4-pole motor too. You can mount the motor > to the bench with c-clamps and hand-hold the alternator for > the purposes of conducting the experiment. We're not > interested in performance under big loads, only > behavior at speeds above minimum speed for regulation > with a few amps load. I went to the junkyard and found a 5" pulley that I thought I would use attached to the drill. The problem is that the drill (600 watts) does not have enough power to turn the alternator fast enough. I can go back on Monday to see if I can find an old AC motor. Of course, another option is to just hook up both my L and IG terminals to the bus, and hope that one of them does have a sense function. If I weren't waiting for parts for my engine, this would probably be the tack that I would take. I now have a choice, play with my alternator, or work on my fiberglass. Not a difficult decision! -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing do not archive


    Message 12


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    Time: 08:02:36 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: antennas
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 08:30 AM 9/30/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net> > > hi all, > i have bobs book but i was looking for a detailed ''how to'' set of > directions for building a comm antenna. bobs drawings leave too much to > my imagination and i end up with more questions than when i started . i > am not at all familiar with electronics. that i can even send this e > mail is a miracle. anything on a web site anyone knows of? from bobs book > it seems that the antenna is very basic stuff but i need more help > shopping for parts for one thing. What is your goal for this effort? If you're attempting to save over the cost of a purchased antenna, then you should first assign some $time$ value to your present abilities. Let's say you've pegged your contribution to the project at $7/hour. A commercial, ready to bolt on antenna can be had for as little as $50. See: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/av534.php and a really nice one for under $100. See: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/com_comant.php There's no way I could duplicate the techniques used to craft a $100 antenna in my shop so let's talk about the $50 antenna. At $7/hour to build this antenna, you need to purchase materials (say $15) and then finish the task in about 5 hours. You're already 20-30 minutes into the program just by opening this dialog. Bottom line is that nobody saves money by building from scratch. An alternative goal is to achieve some understanding of antenna operation and construction along with the personal pride for having mastered some new technology and skills. Now, considerations for $time$ are pushed way back on the stove . . . education is always EXPENSIVE. There are two aspects to antenna fabrication. Electrical ones and mechanical ones. Electrically, you need a 22" piece of metal to stick out of your fuselage relatively clear of other obstructions. Mechanically, it needs to be robust enough to withstand the rigors of aircraft service. The installation shouldn't cause damage to your airplane (you may need doublers). And it needs to utilize techniques that are available to you in your shop. I could walk out to my shop right now and cut a base out of Delrin, machine an adapter drilled for 3/16" stainless rod, silver solder the rod into the adapter, bend the rod at some rakish angle with an eye toward adding a fox tail . . . and I'm done. Except for a trip to the Yard to pick up a piece of stainless, I could probably have all that done in 2-3 hours. I would end up with a perfectly performing antenna that looked like it was built in my shop and had an investment of about 5 to 10 times what the commercial equivalent part would cost. I'm not trying to dissuade you from either course of action. I'm only suggesting that you consider the return on investment for both routes. Make your decision based on goals you've set for your activities what skills and tools you can bring to the effort. My shop has a lathe in it. Your approach to building the parts might take the hacksaw, band saw and belt sander approach. You can produce equally good performing parts but with more hours and risks for spoilage. This is why the DIY antenna descriptions in the 'Connection are so vague. I had no way to anticipate the tools, skill set, and project goals for all the builders. The best one can hope to do as a writer is plant seeds of an idea that a few builders can water and run with while adapting it to their own tools and skill sets. So, if you've decided you want to build an antenna, your questions need to be more specific about how to tackle details of its construction. You need to formulate questions that mirror your access tools and materials such that folks here on the list have a good mental image of your working environment and the level of assistance you're needing to understand the fabrication steps. > i was just looking and thinking about the best place for my fuse panel. > i have no need to access the panel in flight but it still seems anywhere > i put it i will be at least be under the panel , half in the airplanes > door, and holding a flashlight in my mouth. now i am thinking those > individual fuse holders next to the switch or instrument would be in > every way more convenient. never have had a pleasant memory of changing a > fuse in a car! The advantage of the fuse blocks is that they provide multiple power distribution taps off of a pre-fabricated bus bar. Individual fuse holders scattered around the airplane don't fill the bill. The likelihood of EVER needing to replace a fuse in your airplane is smaller than for your car. Use the fuse block, mount wherever you have space and know that there are always some things on airplanes that are extremely difficult to work on. Those items need to be limited to stuff that is seldom touched which includes fuse blocks. I met a builder at a fly-in who had to dismount his engine an hoist it up and forward to change his oil filter . . . bad deal but the least of several evils. Bob . . .


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:29:48 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: ND two-lead alternator question
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 04:58 PM 9/30/2005 +0200, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins ><mick-matronics@rv8.ch> > > >>> 3000rpm is at the raggedy edge of minimum speed for > >>> regulation at full output so perhaps your experiment > >>> was incapable of yielding definitive data. You can > >>> rig a 12 or 24 volt transformer to "boost" the line > >>> voltage to the drill motor. Was this 3000 a measured > >>> value or nameplate value? > >> > >>Nameplate value. I'll see if I can find a way to spin > >>it faster. I need a new drill anyway. Thanks! > > > > > > Anything faster in a drill motor will be rare. Most > > drills of greater capacity get "more powerful" by > > gearing down for torque as a trade off for speed. > >Yep - found this out this morning at the hardware store! > > > I'll suggest you get a small AC motor with a pulley > > on it. Look for a 2-pole (3650 rpm) as opposed to > > 4-pole (1750 rpm). Of course, my choosing pulley sizes, > > you can use the 4-pole motor too. You can mount the motor > > to the bench with c-clamps and hand-hold the alternator for > > the purposes of conducting the experiment. We're not > > interested in performance under big loads, only > > behavior at speeds above minimum speed for regulation > > with a few amps load. > >I went to the junkyard and found a 5" pulley that I >thought I would use attached to the drill. The problem >is that the drill (600 watts) does not have enough >power to turn the alternator fast enough. I can go >back on Monday to see if I can find an old AC motor. > >Of course, another option is to just hook up both >my L and IG terminals to the bus, and hope that one >of them does have a sense function. If I weren't >waiting for parts for my engine, this would probably >be the tack that I would take. I now have a choice, >play with my alternator, or work on my fiberglass. >Not a difficult decision! Whoops! Perhaps I lost sight of your goal. you seem belabored of the notion that one must KNOW if L or IG is a sense lead. If all you're wanting to do is hook it up so that it will work, then hook IG directly to the bus. Hook L to the bus through a lamp paralleled with a 150 ohm resistor and be done with it. This is the industry standard installation cars for decades and it WILL function. Further, it matters not WHERE the sensing is done, IG, L or B-lead. I thought the purpose of your experiment was to determine IF the regulator in your alternator was taking advantage of some remote sense capability. This is good data to have and we're all interested in your experiment but I'll suggest that knowing the answer won't have any useful effect on your installation choices or performance of the finished system. Please continue with the experiment if you're enjoying the opportunity for discovery but if you're strapped for time then know that the outcome of your experiments will have no practical effects on your installation decisions. I am especially appreciative of your efforts because its a solid demonstration of the value of data taken from the repeatable experiment no matter how crude the setup. What you're doing and the spirit under which it's conducted is a core component of good science. I'll bet Carl Sagan would be proud of you . . . you're doing just what he would have suggested. Bob . . .


    Message 14


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    Time: 08:29:49 AM PST US
    From: "John Solecki" <jsolecki@sympatico.ca>
    Subject: Re: ND two-lead alternator question
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Solecki" <jsolecki@sympatico.ca> These last series of comments remind me of the exchange between the Wizard & the Scarecrow near the end of the movie I can't remember it verbatim but as I recall the Scarecrow had gone to see Wizard to get a brain. The wizard replied that wasn't possible and he couldn't give him a brain but he what he could give him was a diploma and virtually no one would know the difference. My aircraft project has been put on hold until I have more free time but I continue to subscribe to the AeroElectric List because of Robert Nuckolls. I enjoy reading his replies to people's questions and his approach to problems. It helps me deal with the engineering problems I deal with every day. Bob gives an extraordinary amount of his time and knowledge away for free because of his love of aviation ( I guess) and a genuine desire to assist his fellow enthusiasts; certainly not because he's getting rich billing out his consulting time for the answers. I cannot get over the number of people who vehemently attack his efforts. There's a big difference between accountability and abuse and I wish responders would bear this in mind. John Solecki Toronto ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ND two-lead alternator question > >>Bob, you are talking about reliability issues, and you have no idea what >>you are talking about. You said you have an engineering degree and >>understand failure mode analysis and in particular those of the IC chips >>in ND alternators? Where did you go to school and what degree did you get? >>I went to LSU for under grad and UW for grad school. >


    Message 15


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    Time: 08:32:54 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: antennas
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 09:35 AM 9/30/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" <icubob@newnorth.net> > >hi all, >just came from my study[the bathroom] and it occurred to me that if i use >individual fuse holders in the panels then every wire that runs from the >bus bar to that fuse is unprotected from a short. if this is true that is >enough to rule that out? Very good! You're exactly right. My all time best teacher NEVER directly answered a question I might have asked. He always asked me questions that went to underlying simple-ideas that supported the answer I was seeking. More often than not, I would ultimately discover the answer I was seeking by assembling what I already knew. It's a simple but sometimes tedious task but it's the way to true understanding as opposed to blind acceptance of process. Bob . . .


    Message 16


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    Time: 08:43:31 AM PST US
    From: "Steve Hunt" <stephen.hunt19@btinternet.com>
    Subject: Re: ND two-lead alternator question
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steve Hunt" <stephen.hunt19@btinternet.com> Hear Hear! ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Solecki" <jsolecki@sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ND two-lead alternator question > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Solecki" > <jsolecki@sympatico.ca> > > These last series of comments remind me of the exchange between the Wizard > & > the Scarecrow near the end of the movie > I can't remember it verbatim but as I recall the Scarecrow had gone to see > Wizard to get a brain. The wizard replied that wasn't possible and he > couldn't give him a brain but he what he could give him was a diploma and > virtually no one would know the difference. > > My aircraft project has been put on hold until I have more free time but I > continue to subscribe to the AeroElectric List because of Robert Nuckolls. > I enjoy reading his replies to people's questions and his approach to > problems. It helps me deal with the engineering problems I deal with every > day. > Bob gives an extraordinary amount of his time and knowledge away for free > because of his love of aviation ( I guess) and a genuine desire to assist > his fellow enthusiasts; certainly not because he's getting rich billing > out > his consulting time for the answers. > I cannot get over the number of people who vehemently attack his efforts. > There's a big difference between accountability and abuse and I wish > responders would bear this in mind. > > John Solecki > Toronto > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> > To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: ND two-lead alternator question > > >> >>>Bob, you are talking about reliability issues, and you have no idea what >>>you are talking about. You said you have an engineering degree and >>>understand failure mode analysis and in particular those of the IC chips >>>in ND alternators? Where did you go to school and what degree did you >>>get? >>>I went to LSU for under grad and UW for grad school. >> > > >


    Message 17


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    Time: 08:46:36 AM PST US
    From: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Was antennas Now Fuse Block Location
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com> Hi Bob: I'm a real novice at this and have only had Bob's book for a week so take my advice for what it's worth. I installed my fuse block with a hinge under the panel. It swings down for access. I haven't installed any wires yet, but I plan to run them neatly with enough coil the back to let it swing freely. I can't take credit for it since another builder gave me the idea, but here are a few photos of what I have done so far: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/9_23_05_Main_Bus.JPG and http://www.cooknwithgas.com/9_23_05_Main_Bus_back.JPG I have source information on the fuse block if you need it. I hope this helps, Scott Laughlin 601XL/Corvair www.cooknwithgas.com bob noffs <icubob@newnorth.net> wrote: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" hi all, i was just looking and thinking about the best place for my fuse panel. --------------------------------- Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.


    Message 18


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    Time: 10:03:25 AM PST US
    From: Speedy11@aol.com
    Subject: Internal OVP
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com I recently discovered a not-yet-available 60A alternator on the internet at http://www.plane-power.com/AL12-EI60.htm. The ad says "12 volt, 60 amp, internally regulated alternator kit includes regulator, overvoltage protection, brackets, pulley, mounting hardware and belt for use in EXPERIMENTAL aircraft." After seeing Bob's recent comments about IR not being optimized for OVP, I sent the builder a note asking about the OV protection in his alternator. His OVP is crowbar. The correspondence is below. This info is FYI. Do Not Archive. Stan Sutterfield Our alternators have over voltage protection that will disable the alternator if it detects more than 16 volts by tripping the 5 amp =E2=80=9Calternator enable=E2=80=9D circuit breaker . It is known as a crow-bar circuit and has been around for years. Best Regards, Steve A man who is very learned in aircraft electrics said the following regarding an IR alternator with OV protection like yours. A further feature of note is what's called an OVER VOLTAGE DETECTOR in the middle. No doubt this section of the chip has some functionality for the implied purpose. However, nobody I know of in the aviation world would consider an embedded OV protection circuit to have adequate separation between CONTROL and PROTECTION. While a citation for "Built in ov protection" looks good on the marketing hype for any alternator that uses this chip, it's a huge stretch to assume that all failure modes capable of precipitating an OV condition will be sufficiently isolated from the OV protection system to pass muster for a certified power generation system for aircraft. He was referring to the attached schematic. Does your AL12-EI60 actually have OV protection?


    Message 19


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    Time: 10:14:07 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: antennas
    From: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net> Yep! Unless you want to install a fuseable link on each one of them on the end that connects to the buss. John Do not archive On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 09:35:18 -0500, bob noffs <icubob@newnorth.net> wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" > <icubob@newnorth.net> > > hi all, > just came from my study[the bathroom] and it occurred to me that if i > use individual fuse holders in the panels then every wire that runs from > the bus bar to that fuse is unprotected from a short. if this is true > that is enough to rule that out? > bob noffs > > --


    Message 20


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    Time: 10:37:26 AM PST US
    From: "David Henderson" <wf-k@mindspring.com>
    Subject: Re: Was antennas Now Fuse Block Location
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Henderson" <wf-k@mindspring.com> Loved the pictures, great work! You let it swing down on demand but how is it stowed? A magnet? A hook? Dave Henderson RV-7 finishing kit N925LW (Lord Willing) -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N5SL Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Was antennas Now Fuse Block Location --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com> Hi Bob: I'm a real novice at this and have only had Bob's book for a week so take my advice for what it's worth. I installed my fuse block with a hinge under the panel. It swings down for access. I haven't installed any wires yet, but I plan to run them neatly with enough coil the back to let it swing freely. I can't take credit for it since another builder gave me the idea, but here are a few photos of what I have done so far: http://www.cooknwithgas.com/9_23_05_Main_Bus.JPG and http://www.cooknwithgas.com/9_23_05_Main_Bus_back.JPG I have source information on the fuse block if you need it. I hope this helps, Scott Laughlin 601XL/Corvair www.cooknwithgas.com bob noffs <icubob@newnorth.net> wrote: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" hi all, i was just looking and thinking about the best place for my fuse panel. --------------------------------- Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.


    Message 21


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    Time: 11:13:00 AM PST US
    From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
    Subject: Re: Was antennas Now Fuse Block Location
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com> I was considering something like this to allow access to the fuse block from outside the aircraft using a small door, but worried about the bending of the wires introducing undetectable failures under the insulation. Since my instrument panel is canopy-mounted, I have to implement some coiled wires myself, but the canopy hinge operates over a much larger distance and doesn't seem as failure-prone as a fuse block on a small door. Dave Morris At 12:36 PM 9/30/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Henderson" ><wf-k@mindspring.com> > >Loved the pictures, great work! You let it swing down on demand but how is >it stowed? A magnet? A hook? > >Dave Henderson RV-7 finishing kit >N925LW (Lord Willing) > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N5SL >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Was antennas Now Fuse Block Location > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com> > >Hi Bob: > >I'm a real novice at this and have only had Bob's book for a week so take my >advice for what it's worth. I installed my fuse block with a hinge under >the panel. It swings down for access. I haven't installed any wires yet, >but I plan to run them neatly with enough coil the back to let it swing >freely. I can't take credit for it since another builder gave me the >idea, but here are a few photos of what I have done so far: > >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/9_23_05_Main_Bus.JPG > >and > >http://www.cooknwithgas.com/9_23_05_Main_Bus_back.JPG > >I have source information on the fuse block if you need it. I hope this >helps, > >Scott Laughlin >601XL/Corvair >www.cooknwithgas.com > > >bob noffs <icubob@newnorth.net> wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" > >hi all, >i was just looking and thinking about the best place for my fuse panel. > > >--------------------------------- > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. > >


    Message 22


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    Time: 11:42:16 AM PST US
    From: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
    Subject: Re: Solid State Gyros
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> Great looking system, Dave. Impressive integration of components - took a lot of time and research I am certain. I will be interested to hear how the in-flight tests go. Best of Luck with the project. Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Morris "BigD"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Solid State Gyros > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" > <BigD@DaveMorris.com> > > That's what I'm doing with my own home-grown system. Assuming that > DEGREES > of pitch and bank are not nearly as important as RATE of CLIMB and RATE of > TURN, I am not using any gyros at all, but using the GPS input to > determine > rate of turn and the Rocky Mountain MicroEncoder input to determine rate > of > climb, and then displaying those on an AH, along with a moving map and > HSI. > > Equipped with an 8" touchscreen, you can touch any airport and it will not > only give you heading, distance, and time to arrival, but if the autopilot > is engaged, will fly there at whatever altitude you tell it. The airspeed > indicator reads from a config file to display all your V speeds. System > also includes a magnetic compass (RMI) interface, so it can > instantaneously > calculate actual winds information from ground speed (GPS), airspeed > (RMI), > ground track (RMI) and magnetic heading (RMI). > > Another bold assumption I'm making is that the heading-hold autopilot will > also act as a wing-leveler, whereas an input from a Smart Level OEM module > will detect non-coordinated roll deviations that can also be fed into the > wing-leveler. > > All for under $2000 > > All still theoretical because my Dragonfly isn't flying yet, but I hope to > be in 2006. > > Dave Morris > www.MyGlassCockpit.com > > > At 10:58 PM 9/29/2005, you wrote: >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: GMC <gmcnutt@shaw.ca> >> >> >>Hi Jon, >> >>I don't have my Trutrak yet because I am waiting for the autopilot >>version. Initially I had some of the same reservations you are >>expressing. If you want factual data call the company and they will >>answer your concerns and questions. One thing that you may not be aware >>of is the Trutrak ADI has a low airspeed warning for that nose high >>descent you (and I) are worried about. >>My understanding is that the little solid state gyros have a high drift >>rate so they must be stabilized in roll by internal magnetometer or GPS >>and in pitch by vertical speed. (-disclaimer I have not seen or flown >>the Trutrak ADI.) >> >>Analyze what you actually need to know when instrument flying, attitude >>or flight path, in most cases we use the attitude indicator to establish >>flight path that must be verified on other instruments. The Trutrak >>shows flight path plus V/S and low airspeed indications. Zero pitch on >>the ADI will be level flight at any speed, zero pitch on the attitude >>indicator will be level flight at only one airspeed. >> >>Jon Goguen wrote: >> >> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen >> <jon.goguen@umassmed.edu> >> > >> >Nonetheless, it doesn't give true attitude information, and could >> indicate negative pitch during a decent >> >with the nose high, or zero pitch when hanging from the prop, etc. >> > > > >


    Message 23


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    Time: 11:49:24 AM PST US
    From: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Was antennas Now Fuse Block Location
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com> Lord Willing is good! How many of us feel that way?! Dave I plan to do a hook with thin aluminum but I have to get all the wires installed first so I can fabricate the hook out of the way. I got the idea from Lance Gingell. His website has this photo: http://wls1.lancegingell.com/largeplaneimages/DSC06143.jpg It shows the hook. He used a different type of fuse block but you get the idea. I used a marine fuse block with screw-type connectors since it would be swinging down from time to time I wanted the wires to be really secure. Take care, Scott Laughlin www.cooknwithgas.com N5SL (slow learner) David Henderson <wf-k@mindspring.com> wrote: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "David Henderson" Loved the pictures, great work! You let it swing down on demand but how is it stowed? A magnet? A hook? Dave Henderson RV-7 finishing kit N925LW (Lord Willing) --------------------------------- Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.


    Message 24


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    Time: 12:25:56 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: VR for PM Alternator
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 10:24 AM 9/23/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" ><rdunhamtn@hotmail.com> > >I've just purchased a Jabiru 3300 powered OBAM sky skorcher project. 90% >down, 90% to go. > >The Jab comes with a "solid state" voltage regulator. I understand that the >PM Alternator (I think they call it a generator) was initially 3 phase but >Jabiru changed to single phase because it was eating VRs. What's the >difference? A three-phase alternator has more volumetric efficiency than two-phase . . . in plain-speak, a 3-phase machine will develop more watts per cubic inch than a single-phase. Automotive, wound field alternators have been 3-phase from day one. It's to bad if Jabiru had to trade off the advantages of 3-phase because nobody they knew was able to craft a suitable regulator. Perhaps this would be a good design study . . . after I run the load-dump, OV protection issues to ground on IR alternators. >Since I have become a devotee of the Connection I have wired a Rotax 912UL >powered sky skorcher with its Ducati ignition and VR with the predictable >good results. I used architecture almost identical to Z-20, except for the >LV warn system. It wasn't on the "small Rotax system" at the time. > >My question is this: Should I just go ahead and use the stock VR and add >OVR/crowbar protection and LV warn as per Z-20 OR is there a VR out there >for PM alternators with built-in OVP, LVW and temp compensation? DC power generation with permanent magnet alternators is a special case that requires a rectifier/regulator package capable of handling full output current of the alternator. Wound field alternators like those found on cars and most airplanes have the advantage of access to control of field excitation to regulate voltage. It's a rare regulator that has to grunt more than 3 amps in these cases. They're completely separate breeds of cat. >My battery, battery contactor, starter contactor and VR are all mounted >close to each other on the firewall inside the engine compartment in a >tightly cowled airplane. It was that way when I bought the project. Z-20 with the lv warning would be my recommendation. The altenrator you're presented with accommodates very few options. Bob . . .


    Message 25


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    Time: 12:45:59 PM PST US
    From: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@telepath.com>
    Subject: CK breaker life.....
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@telepath.com> I'm not referring to cycles but age of the unit. I've had two breakers on a '71 Bellanca Viking. One was a P&B 1 amp unit that supplied a KLN90 GPS and the other, just last week, was a 5 amp ETA unit that supplied the the autopilot (had an "event" that tripped the breaker and found the cause to be a deformed contact on the bridge of the 24 pin Centronics connector Century Flight used for the control head). I suppose the ETA unit had a reason but the P&B unit just quit. Wondering if I'm just lucky or are there age related lifetimes ( and not related to the normal resistance buildups).... Jim Baker 580.788.2779 '71 SV, 492TC Elmore City, OK




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