---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 10/01/05: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:10 AM - Re: Re: Was antennas Now Fuse Block Location (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 2. 07:13 AM - Re: Internal OVP (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 07:13 AM - Re: CK breaker life..... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 07:28 AM - Re: CK breaker life..... (Bruce Gray) 5. 07:37 AM - Re: Cage horizon when powering up ? (Gilles Thesee) 6. 07:47 AM - Why are wire strands tinned ? (Gilles Thesee) 7. 08:54 AM - Re: Why are wire strands tinned ? (Ed Anderson) 8. 09:43 AM - Re: CK breaker life..... (Mickey Coggins) 9. 10:37 AM - Re: CK breaker life..... (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 12:56 PM - Re: Why are wire strands tinned ? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 03:11 PM - Re: Why are wire strands tinned ? (Eric M. Jones) 12. 03:56 PM - Re: Why are wire strands tinned ? (Gilles Thesee) 13. 06:18 PM - capacitor and music jack help needed (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)) 14. 07:30 PM - (bob noffs) 15. 08:16 PM - Re: capacitor and music jack help needed (Matt Prather) 16. 11:32 PM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (dralle@matronics.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:10:12 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Was antennas Now Fuse Block Location --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com Here's my take on the same problem, perhaps some similar method could be employed on yours- trays are secured with thumbscrews through the tray and into platenuts on bottom of the sub-panel, which is about 6 inches behind the main panel. Thumbscrews are retained in tray with small "keeper" washers (don't recall exact name) that slip over the threads up against the back side of the tray. First log entry shows initial tray fabrication and fitting: http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5002 Click "Next Entry>>" at top of page to see right tray installed- left thumbscrew is shown (small round brown plastic knob) and hole for other one is on right side of tray. Continue clicking next entry for subsequent views of panel construction- there are a few more of the trays later on... Mark Phillips - Columbia, TN ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:03 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Internal OVP --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 01:02 PM 9/30/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com > >I recently discovered a not-yet-available 60A alternator on the internet at >http://www.plane-power.com/AL12-EI60.htm. The ad says "12 volt, 60 amp, >internally regulated alternator kit includes regulator, overvoltage >protection, >brackets, pulley, mounting hardware and belt for use in EXPERIMENTAL >aircraft." >After seeing Bob's recent comments about IR not being optimized for OVP, I >sent >the builder a note asking about the OV protection in his alternator. His OVP >is crowbar. The correspondence is below. This info is FYI. Do Not Archive. >Stan Sutterfield > > >Our alternators have over voltage protection that will disable the alternator >if it detects more than 16 volts by tripping the 5 amp =E2=80=9Calternator >enable=E2=80=9D >circuit breaker . It is known as a crow-bar circuit and has been around for >years. >Best Regards, >Steve Yes, I've heard of this product. I think I've also mentioned in years past, a schematic that I observed for some COTS automotive alternator that used the American-Grumman approach to OVP. They shunt a 16v zener downstream of a fuse for the field supply INTERNAL to an alternator with an internal regulator. This style of crowbar ovp is discussed in the 'Connecion and elsewhere. While it offers considerable inconvenience in terms of recovering from the OV event, it still passes muster with the feds for a firewall between control and protection. I completed my hand-shake agreement yesterday with the folks who own the big drive stands. I can arrange for use of the machines on a non-interference basis. Were getting closer to the acquisition of DATA. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:03 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: CK breaker life..... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:45 PM 9/30/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" > >I'm not referring to cycles but age of the unit. I've had two breakers >on a '71 Bellanca Viking. One was a P&B 1 amp unit that supplied a >KLN90 GPS and the other, just last week, was a 5 amp ETA unit that >supplied the the autopilot (had an "event" that tripped the breaker >and found the cause to be a deformed contact on the bridge of the >24 pin Centronics connector Century Flight used for the control >head). > >I suppose the ETA unit had a reason but the P&B unit just quit. >Wondering if I'm just lucky or are there age related lifetimes ( and >not related to the normal resistance buildups).... Do you still have the failed breakers? I'd love to do teardown inspections and see if we can deduce failure modes. It's been my general observation that most failures of electro-mechanical devices on light aircraft die of old age. I think I've mentioned several times here on the List that while study and understanding of manufacturer's specifications is important, I cannot recall a single instance where I've removed a failed part wherein the part died due to lack of proper respect for the part's ratings (i.e. overstressed beyond manufacturer's published ratings). Just last winter, I found a switch that went open on the panel of a Beechjet. It was a $high$ Honneywell- Microswitch product that was seldom moved. The airplane was about 15 years old. In this particular case, the contacts had corroded sufficiently to OPEN the circuit on what was mechanically a brand new switch. The tech I was working with wanted to go get a replacement from the stockroom ($150 part/$150 labor to replace) but I asked him to hold off. I connected a bench supply across the switch in a constant current mode (3A I think) and set it for 50v. After operating the switch a few dozen times, contact resistance for the switch was back down in the 4 milliohm range. The switch will probably go another dozen years before it needs attention. On the other hand, I don't KNOW for sure if that was the original switch. Shucks, there might have been a number of replacements of that switch before I crossed paths with it. This points out the risks of placing much stock in second -> tenth-hand anecdotal data. "Anecdotal" doesn't have to mean worthless or in error . . . just suspect. When the data is first-hand, one can have a fair confidence in the usefulness of the data. As it passes through more individuals, the need for healthy skepticism goes up. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:36 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: CK breaker life..... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" Sounds like a good reason to specify gold contacts. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: CK breaker life..... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:45 PM 9/30/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" > >I'm not referring to cycles but age of the unit. I've had two breakers >on a '71 Bellanca Viking. One was a P&B 1 amp unit that supplied a >KLN90 GPS and the other, just last week, was a 5 amp ETA unit that >supplied the the autopilot (had an "event" that tripped the breaker >and found the cause to be a deformed contact on the bridge of the >24 pin Centronics connector Century Flight used for the control >head). > >I suppose the ETA unit had a reason but the P&B unit just quit. >Wondering if I'm just lucky or are there age related lifetimes ( and >not related to the normal resistance buildups).... Do you still have the failed breakers? I'd love to do teardown inspections and see if we can deduce failure modes. It's been my general observation that most failures of electro-mechanical devices on light aircraft die of old age. I think I've mentioned several times here on the List that while study and understanding of manufacturer's specifications is important, I cannot recall a single instance where I've removed a failed part wherein the part died due to lack of proper respect for the part's ratings (i.e. overstressed beyond manufacturer's published ratings). Just last winter, I found a switch that went open on the panel of a Beechjet. It was a $high$ Honneywell- Microswitch product that was seldom moved. The airplane was about 15 years old. In this particular case, the contacts had corroded sufficiently to OPEN the circuit on what was mechanically a brand new switch. The tech I was working with wanted to go get a replacement from the stockroom ($150 part/$150 labor to replace) but I asked him to hold off. I connected a bench supply across the switch in a constant current mode (3A I think) and set it for 50v. After operating the switch a few dozen times, contact resistance for the switch was back down in the 4 milliohm range. The switch will probably go another dozen years before it needs attention. On the other hand, I don't KNOW for sure if that was the original switch. Shucks, there might have been a number of replacements of that switch before I crossed paths with it. This points out the risks of placing much stock in second -> tenth-hand anecdotal data. "Anecdotal" doesn't have to mean worthless or in error . . . just suspect. When the data is first-hand, one can have a fair confidence in the usefulness of the data. As it passes through more individuals, the need for healthy skepticism goes up. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:37:51 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Cage horizon when powering up ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee >>To cage or not to cage before powering up our electric gyro ? >>Do you happen to have any more information ? >> >> > > I've talk to two ol' instrument mechanics with square > glasses who said about the same thing. Manufacturers > of gyros have published various admonitions for use of their > products to avoid unnecessary stresses and/or avoid obvious > hazards to damage. There's no consistent thread among them > except that the same items keep popping up from time to time. > > They were aware of no gyro products that would exhibit > a demonstrably longer service life in a non-aerobatic > aircraft based on caging habits of the pilot. Some gyros > would erect faster if uncaged after power up but even that > "benefit" was marginally useful . . . there were no properly > operating gyros that wouldn't be fully stood up by the time > the airplane was ready for takeoff no matter how it was > oriented before power up. I'll keep nosing around. > > Bob, Thank you once again for your help. Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:57 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: AeroElectric-List: Why are wire strands tinned ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee Hi Bob and all, Another question about wires. I know it has been addressed in the past, but couldn't remember. Are the strands tinned for solderability ? Or corrosion resistance, or both ? Thanks in advance, Regards, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:48 AM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Why are wire strands tinned ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" I believe it was done primarily for Corrosion resistance. In older automobiles it was not unusual to start to have electrical problems after about 10 years or so due to the oxygen penetrating the plastic insulation and causing oxidation of the copper changing the conducting properties of the wire. Of course it does help the solderability of the wire as well. Your name reminded me - I have an ancestor named Gilles Bertrand from L'eveche De St Brieuc, Bretagne France. Hope to visit someday. Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gilles Thesee" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Why are wire strands tinned ? > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee > > > Hi Bob and all, > > Another question about wires. I know it has been addressed in the past, > but couldn't remember. > Are the strands tinned for solderability ? Or corrosion resistance, or > both ? > > Thanks in advance, > Regards, > > Gilles Thesee > Grenoble, France > http://contrails.free.fr > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:43:51 AM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: CK breaker life..... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > Sounds like a good reason to specify gold contacts. I prefer Bob's suggestion of using the switches regularly. The Pipers I fly that belong to our flying club all recently had an "avionics master switch" installed, and an "emergency avionics master switch bypass". I cringed when I saw that, but what can I say. Now, part of my startup procedure is to turn on the master, turn on the master avionics switch, and then power off and on all the avionics controlled by the "avionics master switch". That switch has saved me a lot of time! :-) -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:37:57 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: CK breaker life..... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:29 AM 10/1/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > >Sounds like a good reason to specify gold contacts. > >Bruce >www.glasair.org Maybe. This particular switch was tasked with carrying a couple of amps . . . on occasion. For those interested in studying contact science and switch design vs. application, I'll recommend these two documents from one of the premier suppliers of switches. See: http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/basicswitches/technical/010172.pdf http://content.honeywell.com/sensing/prodinfo/basicswitches/technical/001008_3.pdf I used a number of jewels of simple-ideas from these documents while running down a sticking relay problem a few years ago and for some open-contact problems some time later. These are unusually enlightening papers. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:14 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Why are wire strands tinned ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 11:53 AM 10/1/2005 -0400, you wrote: > Are the strands tinned for solderability ? Or corrosion resistance, or > both ? >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" > > >I believe it was done primarily for Corrosion resistance. In older >automobiles it was not unusual to start to have electrical problems after >about 10 years or so due to the oxygen penetrating the plastic insulation >and causing oxidation of the copper changing the conducting properties of >the wire. Of course it does help the solderability of the wire as well. Ed is right, it was mostly for corrosion resistance but solderability gets a direct benefit from corrosion free or lightly corroded surfaces. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:03 PM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Why are wire strands tinned ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" There is not much reason to plate the copper wire. I have seen cables where some wire was plated only for identification (apparently), while audio buffs claim that copper oxide causes diode effects and thus all audio wire should be plated. Of course, all real audiophiles are insane. Marine types say it is to prevent corrosion. So they have tinned copper cables yet put copper bottoms on their boats. Copper and brass are good in saltwater. One could surmise that some high-frequency effects are improved because of skin effect. There are local old houses hereabouts wired in IRON wire. My guess is it's just floccinaucinihilipilification. By the way I will gladly sample my Super-4-CCA to interested parties. Email me off list. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 (508) 764-2072 "The problem with the world is that only the intelligent people want to be smarter, and only the good people want to improve." - Eolake Stobblehouse ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:56:45 PM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Why are wire strands tinned ? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee Ed Anderson a crit : >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" > >I believe it was done primarily for Corrosion resistance. In older >automobiles it was not unusual to start to have electrical problems after >about 10 years or so due to the oxygen penetrating the plastic insulation >and causing oxidation of the copper changing the conducting properties of >the wire. Of course it does help the solderability of the wire as well. > >Your name reminded me - I have an ancestor named Gilles Bertrand from >L'eveche De St Brieuc, Bretagne France. Hope to visit someday. > > Thanks to Bob, Ed, Eric (in alphabetic order ;-) for your answers. Ed, the Bretagne is a fascinating land. It is the westernmost part of France, forests, fields and moors beaten by the westerlies, ragged rocky coasts and menhirs erected by people long forgotten. Everywhere in Bretagne you'll feel the presence of the fairies and magicians of past centuries, and the sea is ever present. And yet in summer it is the warmest of all places. Well, would you believe I love this land ? Best regards, Amicalement, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:02 PM PST US From: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) Subject: AeroElectric-List: capacitor and music jack help needed 1.53 RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO Received: contains an IP address used for HELO --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) I have a XCOM 760 radio and I just checked into their website for the first time in a long time and leared that they now insist all their radios must be fitted with a 22,000uF/25VDC electrolytic capacitor, 85C. But I can't find that exact match using google, e-bay or any of the couple of electronic web site catalogs I bookmarked. Can anyone help? While I'm at it, I never did run across a mono music jack that I'm supposed to find and purchase for their premade harness. The harness has two tinned bare wires that are "Y"d on the jack end and all the 1/8th inch mono jacks in the local electronic stores seem to have 3 or 4 solder lugs on them. So I didn't want to experiment and ruin the radio or an ipod. Does anyone have an idea on what to do about that as well? Any XCOM 760 users out there? thanks, Lucky I have a XCOM 760 radio and I just checked into their website for the first time in a long time and leared that they now insist all their radios must be fitted with a 22,000uF/25VDC electrolytic capacitor, 85C. But I can't find that exact match using google, e-bay or any of the couple of electronic web site catalogs I bookmarked. Can anyone help? While I'm at it, I never did run across a mono music jack thatI'm supposed to find and purchasefor their premade harness. The harness has two tinned bare wires that are "Y"d on thejack endand all the 1/8th inch mono jacks in the local electronic stores seem to have 3 or 4 solder lugs on them. So I didn't want to experiment and ruinthe radio or an ipod. Does anyone have an idea on what to do about that as well? Any XCOM 760 users out there? thanks, Lucky ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:33 PM PST US From: "bob noffs" Subject: AeroElectric-List: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" hi all, thanks to all for replys on the antenna and individual fuse holders. the fuse holders are definitely out of the picture. they definitely leave a lot of wire unprotected. i am leaning toward a fuse box with some sort of cover. i am not sure what i will do about the antenna. guess i will sit on that one for a while. bob noffs ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:03 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: capacitor and music jack help needed From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Hello Lucky, See below. > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) > > I have a XCOM 760 radio and I just checked into their website for the > first time in a long time and leared that they now insist all their > radios must be fitted with a 22,000uF/25VDC electrolytic capacitor, > 85C. But I can't find that exact match using google, e-bay or any of > the couple of electronic web site catalogs I bookmarked. > It would be perfectly safe to substitute a cap with a higher voltage rating. Googling around, I found several different caps in the 30-50VDC rating range. To be honest with you though, this seems like ridulously large cap for a 5W radio. These caps are cheap and plentiful however, so there's no harm in doing as the manufacture specifies. At the same time, I'd be tempted to install and test the radio without the cap (there's no risk to the radio). If you have a performance problem (noise), then consider adding the cap. snip > thanks, > Lucky > Regards, Matt- ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:38 PM PST US From: dralle@matronics.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] DNA: do not archive --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: dralle@matronics.com Dear Lister, Please read over the AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete AeroElectric-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/AeroElectric-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** AeroElectric-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the AeroElectric-List. 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