Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:22 AM - Re: New to List (Will N. Stevenson)
2. 01:24 AM - Re: Re: New to List (Will N. Stevenson)
3. 01:41 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 10/04/05 (Graham Singleton)
4. 05:12 AM - Diodes on B&C contactor (Bill Steer)
5. 05:50 AM - Re: Diodes on B&C contactor (John Schroeder)
6. 06:05 AM - Re: Firewall penetrations (Jim Stone)
7. 06:33 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 06:45 AM - Re: Re: LM-317 & Noise Filtering (J. Mcculley)
9. 06:50 AM - Re: Firewall penetrations (RV Builder (Michael Sausen))
10. 07:27 AM - Re: Firewall penetrations (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
11. 08:10 AM - Re: Firewall penetrations (Karen and Robert Brown)
12. 08:48 AM - Re: Firewall penetrations (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
13. 10:19 AM - Re: Diodes on B&C contactor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 02:21 PM - Re: Firewall penetrations (John Schroeder)
15. 04:01 PM - Re: Firewall penetrations (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
16. 07:29 PM - Re: Firewall penetrations (John Schroeder)
Message 1
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Will N. Stevenson" <will@wavecable.com>
Vern, many thanks for tipping me about your seminars, I shall work my way
through them.
Will
----- Original Message -----
From: "rv-9a-online" <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: New to List
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rv-9a-online
> <rv-9a-online@telus.net>
>
> Will:
>
> There is a series of presentations on aircraft electrical system design
> at http://b4.ca/raa_85/story/index.html .
>
> These presentation were designed for the non-EE types who have to build
> or maintain their own aircraft. They are not the definitive training
> course, but may be of use as an introduction in conjuction with Bob's
> book (which is referenced along with some other publications).
>
> Vern Little
> -9A in the paint shop.
Message 2
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Will N. Stevenson" <will@wavecable.com>
Eric,
Thanks for the welcome, I'm building a Glastar Sportsman, it's about 80%
done now. Then I'll sell it and start all over again. Something to keep me
busy.
Will
> Welcome Will,
>
> I am building Glastar N5EJ with a Sube 2.5L and I intend to finish it this
> century. Starting a business has taken funds and time from the building.
>
> You didn't say what you're building. (?)
>
> (do not archive)
>
> Regards,
> Eric M. Jones
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 10/04/05 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Graham Singleton <graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
>>Bob
>>my understanding is the the big C is required to act as a sink/battery if
>>the main battery goes open circuit with the engine running. This will then
>>prevent the alternator going high.
>>Graham
>>
>>
>
> Is that what XCOM says? Again, the capacitor is a great
> adjunct to battery-less operation of a PM alternator . . .
> and much less so for an automotive alternator. It would be
> out of character for XCOM (or anyone eles) to make
> recommendations for electrical system power generation.
> Is this in their instruction manuals or anything I can
> access on the 'net?
>
> Bob .
>
>
Bob
no, it's what Rotax say in their installation manual
Graham
Message 4
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| Subject: | Diodes on B&C contactor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" <bsteer@gwi.net>
Hi. I'm just getting started on my electrical system and have received some
parts from B&C. One of those, the continuous contactor to be used as the
battery contactor, arrived with three diodes on it, all oriented toward the
one of the two smaller posts. I know there should be one from ground (i.e.,
one of the two smaller posts) to the "actuator" post, but what are the other
two, from each of the load side posts to the "actuator" post, for?
Thanks for your help.
Bill Steer
Zenith 601HD/Stratus
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Diodes on B&C contactor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Bill -
That soounds like the crossfeed contactor. See Z-14 and you should be able
to see what they are for. That contactor has to serve both electrical
systems and their battery switches.
John
On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:07:43 -0400, Bill Steer <bsteer@gwi.net> wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" <bsteer@gwi.net>
>
> Hi. I'm just getting started on my electrical system and have received
> some
> parts from B&C. One of those, the continuous contactor to be used as the
> battery contactor, arrived with three diodes on it, all oriented toward
> the
> one of the two smaller posts. I know there should be one from ground
> (i.e.,
> one of the two smaller posts) to the "actuator" post, but what are the
> other
> two, from each of the load side posts to the "actuator" post, for?
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Bill Steer
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetrations |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
They weigh a ton, and are not make of Stainless. But, sould work fine. I
considered them too, but went with the ss hand bar at Home Depot.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Firewall penetrations
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Hello All,
>
> Starting to think about the above subject seriously and spent some time
> in the local hardware store looking for a way to provide a quick,simple
> lightweight way to make a fire resistant hole in the 'wall.
>
> So I found these metal conduit adaptors for electrical panels, the ones
> with a single screw on on side.
>
> They come in almost any size, are lightwight and have a threaded ring
> which secures them to the wall... A dab of hi strength locktite will
> required to secure the threads.
>
> They are about 1.5 inch long that allows you to pack the free space with
> fire sealant, and you could also push an additional short length of
> firesleeve tube over the end secured with hose clamps if you so desired.
>
> Best part they cost less than a buck each.
>
> For control cables there are the NMB connectors which basically clamp
> Romex for strain relief going into an electric panel. The neat thing
> about these is they come with a metal sheild that pretty much covers the
> unused part of the opening. They don't have the length of the above
> conduit adaptors but they are sure better than a plastic snap bushing!!
>
>
> Does this sound like a plan???
>
> Frank
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: AeroElectric-List Digest: 16 Msgs - |
10/04/05
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
10/04/05
At 09:45 AM 10/5/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Graham Singleton
><graham@gflight.f9.co.uk>
>
>
> >>Bob
> >>my understanding is the the big C is required to act as a sink/battery if
> >>the main battery goes open circuit with the engine running. This will then
> >>prevent the alternator going high.
> >>Graham
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Is that what XCOM says? Again, the capacitor is a great
> > adjunct to battery-less operation of a PM alternator . . .
> > and much less so for an automotive alternator. It would be
> > out of character for XCOM (or anyone eles) to make
> > recommendations for electrical system power generation.
> > Is this in their instruction manuals or anything I can
> > access on the 'net?
> >
> > Bob .
> >
> >
>Bob
>no, it's what Rotax say in their installation manual
Very good. Rotax has acknowledged an operating characteristic
of their alternator system and has recommended a technique for
reducing the deleterious effects of that characteristic. Good
engineering, good marketing. The folks at XCOM have every
reason to expect that their product will be fed by a system that
is no worse for noise than those standards and practices adopted
by the industry for decades. I'd be very surprised if XCOM or
anyone else would ask for a large cap to be installed upstream
of their product for any instance except to acknowledge the
need already defined by folks who sell PM alternators.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: LM-317 & Noise Filtering |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley" <mcculleyja@starpower.net>
Bob,
Thanks for your detailed and helpful explanation, as usual. It appears
this would not be a very suitable noise suppresion technique applicable
to most avionics equipment that operates ideally at 12 volts minimum.
Jim
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
> With limitations. See:
>
> http://cache.national.com/ds/LM/LM117.pdf
>
>
> A popular part stocked by Radio Shack is the LM317T (TO-220
> plastic power package). The middle plot on the right side of
> page 6 describes a feature called "Dropout Voltage" and illustrates
> how it varies with temperature and operating current. Assuming you
> want to operate at say 500 milliamps and your chip will never be
> called to function at or below 0C, then we read from the chart
> that dropout voltage is about 1.8 volts.
>
> Assuming a bus voltage of 13.8 volts minimum and a noise
> component of say 1 volt peak-to-peak, then the MAXIMUM
> expected regulated output from the LM317 is 13.8 minus
> 1.8 minus 0.5v or 11.5 volts. Another way of stating this
> operating characteristic is to say that the input voltage
> cannot be allowed to drop any closer than 1.8 volts of the
> output setpoint which must INCLUDE the negative most going
> excursion due to noise.
>
> Generally speaking, three-terminal regulators can be used
> to great advantage to provide a noise free power source for
> accessories that operate substantially below bus voltage.
> This is why the max setpoint for our three-terminal reguator
> based dimmer is designed to 12 volts. The audio isolation
> amplifier described at
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9009/9009-700E.pdf
>
> operates at 8.7 volts . . . well below the incoming
> bus voltage.
>
> One can purchased "low dropout" devices that work down to
> a few hundred millivolts differential but you must always
> set for an output voltage low enough to prevent the negative
> going component of noise does not go below the allowable
> dropout value.
>
> As a general rule, these devices are not well suited for
> reducing bus noise to accessories that are designed to
> operate directly from bus voltages. They work quite well
> in situations like those illustrated.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Firewall penetrations |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
These are usually low quality galvanized steel. Better than Aluminum or nylon
but not by much. They will melt in a fuel fire and the zinc coating will emit
a nasty greenish smoke that is noxious. Also the coarse thread on romex connectors
are very prone to loosening with vibration. Don't know if loctite would
be enough. I like the idea but don't think the materials are adequate.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Flaps
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Firewall penetrations
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Hello All,
>
> Starting to think about the above subject seriously and spent some
> time in the local hardware store looking for a way to provide a
> quick,simple lightweight way to make a fire resistant hole in the 'wall.
>
> So I found these metal conduit adaptors for electrical panels, the
> ones with a single screw on on side.
>
> They come in almost any size, are lightwight and have a threaded ring
> which secures them to the wall... A dab of hi strength locktite will
> required to secure the threads.
>
> They are about 1.5 inch long that allows you to pack the free space
> with fire sealant, and you could also push an additional short length
> of firesleeve tube over the end secured with hose clamps if you so desired.
>
> Best part they cost less than a buck each.
>
> For control cables there are the NMB connectors which basically clamp
> Romex for strain relief going into an electric panel. The neat thing
> about these is they come with a metal sheild that pretty much covers
> the unused part of the opening. They don't have the length of the
> above conduit adaptors but they are sure better than a plastic snap bushing!!
>
>
> Does this sound like a plan???
>
> Frank
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Firewall penetrations |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Yes the connectors turned out to be Pot metal (Mazak to us
Brits)...Almost melted just by lighting the welding torch and
threatening it!
There is another connector, actually a flex conduit to panel connector
that does not have the tell tale molding lines so it maybe steel....I
will test it this evening.
Thanks
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV
Builder (Michael Sausen)
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Firewall penetrations
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)"
--> <rvbuilder@sausen.net>
These are usually low quality galvanized steel. Better than Aluminum
or nylon but not by much. They will melt in a fuel fire and the zinc
coating will emit a nasty greenish smoke that is noxious. Also the
coarse thread on romex connectors are very prone to loosening with
vibration. Don't know if loctite would be enough. I like the idea but
don't think the materials are adequate.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 Flaps
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Firewall penetrations
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George
(Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Hello All,
>
> Starting to think about the above subject seriously and spent some
> time in the local hardware store looking for a way to provide a
> quick,simple lightweight way to make a fire resistant hole in the
'wall.
>
> So I found these metal conduit adaptors for electrical panels, the
> ones with a single screw on on side.
>
> They come in almost any size, are lightwight and have a threaded ring
> which secures them to the wall... A dab of hi strength locktite will
> required to secure the threads.
>
> They are about 1.5 inch long that allows you to pack the free space
> with fire sealant, and you could also push an additional short length
> of firesleeve tube over the end secured with hose clamps if you so
desired.
>
> Best part they cost less than a buck each.
>
> For control cables there are the NMB connectors which basically clamp
> Romex for strain relief going into an electric panel. The neat thing
> about these is they come with a metal sheild that pretty much covers
> the unused part of the opening. They don't have the length of the
> above conduit adaptors but they are sure better than a plastic snap
bushing!!
>
>
> Does this sound like a plan???
>
> Frank
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetrations |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Karen and Robert Brown" <bkbrown@ashcreekwireless.com>
Hi Frank-
I used those conduit adapters that have a locking ring on each side. I do not
believe they are steel. I ran my wiring through them and then sleeved them with
a 6" piece of firesleeve hose which has a stainless steel clamp installed at
both ends. After the wires were run, I injected 3M Firestop (from Home Depot)
into the firesleeve. My thoughts are that for most high temp situations, this
will be fine. For the highest temp situations (5 or 10 minutes at 2000F),
my cowl will have burned off (it's epoxy) and my windscreen will have burned
through (it's plexi) and at that time, I don't think a steel flange around a wiring
bundle will be the crux of the matter... If it is, I guess you'll read
about it in the archives.
And thank you Mr. Nuckolls for all the learning AND for making me think about MY
design goals. One of my main goals in building this plane was to have a simple,
robust electrical system that I understood and installed. With your help
(and the contribution of all you listers!) I have achieved that. Being a non-electric
type when I started, I have not contributed nearly as much as I have
read, listened and learned.
Bob Brown
RV7A - Fitting cowl/baffles/the last 99%
Message 12
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| Subject: | Firewall penetrations |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
That's a good point ob,
I do know that the pot metal melted VERY quickly with the oxy acetylene
and I would bet it would get pretty darned hot under there before it
burned through the cowling. Even though the resin will burn with
ferocity it will take a while to get thru the fibers to attach you from
the outside. This is based on the pictures of burned out fiberglass cars
I've seen.
I still think the pot metal is a LOT better than a empty hole/nylon bush
but if some kind of steel is available I'd rather have it.
The galvanising really doesn't bother me as it is a pretty small
quantity.
Of course this all comes from a guy with a homebuilt with holes in the
firewall just sealed with silicone...But then it hasn't caught fire
yet...:)
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Karen
and Robert Brown
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Firewall penetrations
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Karen and Robert Brown"
--> <bkbrown@ashcreekwireless.com>
Hi Frank-
I used those conduit adapters that have a locking ring on each side. I
do not believe they are steel. I ran my wiring through them and then
sleeved them with a 6" piece of firesleeve hose which has a stainless
steel clamp installed at both ends. After the wires were run, I
injected 3M Firestop (from Home Depot) into the firesleeve. My thoughts
are that for most high temp situations, this will be fine. For the
highest temp situations (5 or 10 minutes at 2000F), my cowl will have
burned off (it's epoxy) and my windscreen will have burned through (it's
plexi) and at that time, I don't think a steel flange around a wiring
bundle will be the crux of the matter... If it is, I guess you'll read
about it in the archives.
And thank you Mr. Nuckolls for all the learning AND for making me think
about MY design goals. One of my main goals in building this plane was
to have a simple, robust electrical system that I understood and
installed. With your help (and the contribution of all you listers!) I
have achieved that. Being a non-electric type when I started, I have
not contributed nearly as much as I have read, listened and learned.
Bob Brown
RV7A - Fitting cowl/baffles/the last 99%
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Diodes on B&C contactor |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 08:07 AM 10/5/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Steer" <bsteer@gwi.net>
>
>Hi. I'm just getting started on my electrical system and have received some
>parts from B&C. One of those, the continuous contactor to be used as the
>battery contactor, arrived with three diodes on it, all oriented toward the
>one of the two smaller posts. I know there should be one from ground (i.e.,
>one of the two smaller posts) to the "actuator" post, but what are the other
>two, from each of the load side posts to the "actuator" post, for?
Sounds like they sent you one wired for crossfeed application.
See figure Z-14 and :
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s701-2.jpg
For battery contactor and other simple applications, the S702-1
is usually sufficient. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Contactors/s701-1.jpg
Now, having said that, there are builders who have wired their
battery contactors like crossfeed contactors. They have dual
batteries and they were thinking that if only one battery had
been accidently run down, one could bring the good battery on
line though the normal power path and start the engine. Then
the battery contactor on the dead battery could STILL be closed
using power from the bus instead of depending only upon energy
from the depleted battery to get the contactor closed.
The extra diodes are cheap and it might be a useful feature
at some point in the future operation of your airplane.
Bob . . .
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetrations |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Frank -
Lancair uses these for firewall penetrations.
http://www.mcmaster.com/ search for part number: 7529K21 These are zinc
coated steel. You can use a piece of fire sleeve around the whole thing
and cinch it in place wi/ safety wire.
John
On Wed, 5 Oct 2005 08:46:10 -0700, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)
<frank.hinde@hp.com> wrote:
>
> I still think the pot metal is a LOT better than a empty hole/nylon bush
> but if some kind of steel is available I'd rather have it.
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Firewall penetrations |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Ahhh....Cord grips, yes that's where I have seen them....I seen these
here at work.
Thanks for the pointer.
Of course there is another small thought I had about the pot metal...I.e
we have this SS firewall and we make fuel connections through it with
Aluminium bulkhead connectors....Go figure..Shouldn't we be using steel?
Where is the melting point of pot metal vs aluminium?..Anyone know?
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Schroeder
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Firewall penetrations
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder"
--> <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Frank -
Lancair uses these for firewall penetrations.
http://www.mcmaster.com/ search for part number: 7529K21 These are zinc
coated steel. You can use a piece of fire sleeve around the whole thing
and cinch it in place wi/ safety wire.
John
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall penetrations |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Frank -
Note that you can get the cord grips in stainless from McMaster-Carr.
Cheers,
John
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George
> (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Ahhh....Cord grips, yes that's where I have seen them....I seen these
> here at work.
>
> Thanks for the pointer.
>
> Of course there is another small thought I had about the pot metal...I.e
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