---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/12/05: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:14 AM - Re: FI engine fuel flow (Ed Anderson) 2. 06:02 AM - Re: Flap Switch (marknlisa@hometel.com) 3. 06:37 AM - Re: FI engine fuel flow (Ken) 4. 06:59 AM - Re: Flap Switch (Dan Checkoway) 5. 07:08 AM - Re: Flap Switch (Bob White) 6. 07:09 AM - Re: Solid State contactors (Angier M. Ames) 7. 07:45 AM - Now mixture control, was: New comic book on circuit (Glen Matejcek) 8. 08:14 AM - Controlling IR ND Alternators (Glen Matejcek) 9. 08:25 AM - Re: FI engine fuel flow (AI Nut) 10. 08:50 AM - Re: Re: Flap Switch (Dave Morris \) 11. 09:11 AM - Re: FI engine fuel flow (Chuck Jensen) 12. 10:23 AM - Starter problems (Jerry2DT@aol.com) 13. 10:37 AM - Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators () 14. 11:58 AM - Re: Re: Flap Switch (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 15. 12:03 PM - Re: FI engine fuel flow (Ken) 16. 01:39 PM - Re: Starter problems (N1deltawhiskey@aol.com) 17. 01:40 PM - Re: Starter problems (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 18. 01:50 PM - Re: Starter problems (N1deltawhiskey@aol.com) 19. 02:13 PM - Re: Starter problems (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 20. 03:15 PM - Re: Starter problems (Denis Walsh) 21. 04:06 PM - Re: Starter problems (Jim Jewell) 22. 04:37 PM - Re: Flap Switch (Speedy11@aol.com) 23. 05:12 PM - Re: Re: Flap Switch (Earl_Schroeder) 24. 06:07 PM - Re: Re: Solid State contactors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 25. 06:53 PM - Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:27 AM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FI engine fuel flow --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" Ok, David Good luck on your project. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "AI Nut" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FI engine fuel flow > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: AI Nut > > Thank you kindly for the offer of schematic. The DIY engine controller > will handle injector on/off times so can communicate directly with the > computer that does fuel calculation. Alternatively, with a bit of extra > RAM, the ECU can also handle the fuel calcs and just pass off the totals > to the main computer. That's my plan, anyway 8-). > > David M. > > > Ed Anderson wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" >> >> >>The simplest fuel flow system based on electronic injector open duration >>costs about $12-$30.00 to make (depending on what's in your electronic >>junk >>box). It's based on the concept of pulse duty cycle. It basically >>integrates the pulse train and drives a 3 digit meter. The one I built >>was >>designed to work up to a flow rate of 20 GPH. It has a diode, inverter, >>couple of capacitors and resistors, including a pot for calibration and >>the >>3 digit meter. It takes a few flights to get it calibrated, but it is >>surprisingly accurate as a fuel flow meter. I used it for the first year, >>but decided I also wanted a fuel totalizer and that resulted in a >>conceptually simple but somewhat implementation complex analogy design. >> >>So now I am doing the digital version of the analogy system. >> >>If you are interested in the simple system Fuel Flow meter, send me an e >>mail and I'll send you the schematic. >> >>Ed Anderson >>Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >>Matthews, NC >>eanderson@carolina.rr.com >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "AI Nut" >>To: >>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FI engine fuel flow >> >> >> >> >>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: AI Nut >>> >>>I considered that, but it will only be accurate at 100% operating >>>injector. If it becomes even partially clogged, but not to the point of >>>the plug not firing, you'll be off by increasing amounts. Or, if any or >>>all of the other injectors start getting clogged, same thing. Actual >>>fuel flow versus calculated fuel burned should indicate when/if the >>>injectors are becoming clogged. Etc. >>> >>>David M. >>> >>> >>>Ken wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken >>>> >>>>Hi David >>>>On my list of things to do sometime is a little device to integrate the >>>>pulses going to one of the fuel injectors and display flow. The SDS >>>>injection computer is available with that option. That's the cheapest >>>>and most accurate way that I've thought of... >>>>Ken >>>> >>>>AI Nut wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: AI Nut >>>>> >>>>>I would like to install some affordable fuel flow sensors in my plane. >>>>>It's only a 3/8" line for a turbocharged 1.9L engine, so fuel >>>>>requirements are not huge. I've talked to Flowscan (I think it was) >>>>>and >>>>>they say their fuel injection system is not accurate at all. I'll need >>>>>to sensors, of course, including one for the low pressure return line. >>>>>The feed side is usually 43 psi but can at times reach 90 psi absolute. >>>>> >>>>>Any ideas? Don't need a gauge since I'll be connecting the sensor >>>>>output to an A/D for computer input. >>>>> >>>>>Thanks! >>>>>David M. >>>>>Cost is ALWAYS a consideration. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:44 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Flap Switch From: marknlisa@hometel.com --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: marknlisa@hometel.com You might consider an on-off-(on) style toggle switch. The "on" in parentheses denotes a momemtary position; you can hold the switch in that position, but a spring moves the toggle back to the middle "off" position when you release it. If you install the switch with the momemtary on position down you can lower the flaps by holding the switch until you attain the desired flap position, then release. I've timed my flaps at 10 seconds to full down, so 3 seconds gives me approx 1/3 flaps. I can do it without looking at the indicator. To raise 'em just toggle up and forget it; the limit switch will cut power to the motor when the flaps are up. Mark & Lisa Sletten Legacy FG N828LM http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:28 AM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FI engine fuel flow --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken In practice I doubt whether a flow sensor would really flag the start of an injector clog in that most of the time the discrepancy is going to be a similar order of magnitude as caused by temperature change etc. While this is not a concern to me, if it was I'd look at both systems. ie compare the electronic commanded on time of the injectors to the measured flow and flag any significant discrepancy. The easier way would be to have an EGT for every cylinder of course. I've set up an EIS4000 to flag differences in left side vs. right side EGT on my EJ22 which has common exhaust ports for each side of the engine. Ken AI Nut wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: AI Nut > >I considered that, but it will only be accurate at 100% operating >injector. If it becomes even partially clogged, but not to the point of >the plug not firing, you'll be off by increasing amounts. Or, if any or >all of the other injectors start getting clogged, same thing. Actual >fuel flow versus calculated fuel burned should indicate when/if the >injectors are becoming clogged. Etc. > >David M. > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:36 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Flap Switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" Stan, My RV-7 kit came with an (on)-off-(on) bat toggle switch just like you describe. Pretty sure it came with the electric flap sub-kit with the fuselage. If your kit didn't come with one, email me your address offline and I'll just send you mine. I didn't end up using it. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Flap Switch > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com > > I have a question for folks on the list. > I want to control the flaps from both a switch on the panel and a switch > on > the stick. I would like to have a flap switch on the panel that has three > positions - momentary up-stick-momentary down. The momentary up and down > positions are self explanatory. The middle "stick" position would direct > control of > the flaps to a switch on the stick. > My question is - what switch would I use for the panel to accomplish the > desired results? > Stan Sutterfield > www.rv-8a.net > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:19 AM PST US From: Bob White Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Flap Switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob White That could cause some problems in the installation Stan described if you forget to center the panel switch from the up position, then try to lower flaps using the control stick switch. Also, take a look at figure 11-15 at http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/switches.pdf If that type of motor is in use, the switches and wiring will be different. The control stick PB's could be done with DPST switches in that case. Bob W. On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:03:21 -0500 (CDT) marknlisa@hometel.com wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: marknlisa@hometel.com > > You might consider an on-off-(on) style toggle switch. The "on" in > parentheses denotes a momemtary position; you can hold the switch in that > position, but a spring moves the toggle back to the middle "off" position > when you release it. > > If you install the switch with the momemtary on position down you can > lower the flaps by holding the switch until you attain the desired flap > position, then release. I've timed my flaps at 10 seconds to full down, > so 3 seconds gives me approx 1/3 flaps. I can do it without looking at > the indicator. > > To raise 'em just toggle up and forget it; the limit switch will cut power > to the motor when the flaps are up. > > > Mark & Lisa Sletten > Legacy FG N828LM > http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com > > -- http://www.bob-white.com N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (real soon) Prewired EC2 Cables - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:31 AM PST US From: "Angier M. Ames" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Solid State contactors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Angier M. Ames" Hi Bob, My principal concern has to do with the considerable heat generated in the battery master contactor... just wondering if there was a reasonable alternative. Angier Ames ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:45:18 AM PST US From: "Glen Matejcek" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Now mixture control, was: New comic book on circuit --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" Hi All- I just flew an A-36 that had an OEM fuel flow meter that read 12% high, according to the Gucci after market totallizer. At cruise power, that was about 1.5 GPH. FWIW, and of course, Do Not Archive! Glen Matejcek aerobubba@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:09 AM PST US From: "Glen Matejcek" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Controlling IR ND Alternators --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" Hi guys- I've seen a couple of posts over the last few weeks that make me think I need to clarify a couple of points I made earlier. The info I've gathered on the 60 A alt that Van sells is that the 'I' lead is the voltage sense lead. De-powering it should not shut down the alternator output. The 'L' lead is the signal lead. Application of +V to this lead starts alternator output, and removing +V from this lead shuts it down. Should the alternator fail for any reason, this lead is taken to ground. There don't seem to be may automotive alternators that are wired this way, but the one Van calls out is, according to my research. Also, the odd, unused lead has various functions on various part number alternators, but on this one it has no function at all. Hope this helps to clarify the situation- Glen Matejcek aerobubba@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:48 AM PST US From: AI Nut Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FI engine fuel flow --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: AI Nut I have installed EGT and CHT sensors for each of the 4 cylinders. I didn't know that a change in EGT could be an indication of injector clogging. Do you have any formulae or somewhere to point me where I may learn more, please? Thanks, David M. Ken wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken > >In practice I doubt whether a flow sensor would really flag the start of >an injector clog in that most of the time the discrepancy is going to be >a similar order of magnitude as caused by temperature change etc. While >this is not a concern to me, if it was I'd look at both systems. ie >compare the electronic commanded on time of the injectors to the >measured flow and flag any significant discrepancy. The easier way would >be to have an EGT for every cylinder of course. I've set up an EIS4000 >to flag differences in left side vs. right side EGT on my EJ22 which has >common exhaust ports for each side of the engine. >Ken > >AI Nut wrote: > > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: AI Nut >> >>I considered that, but it will only be accurate at 100% operating >>injector. If it becomes even partially clogged, but not to the point of >>the plug not firing, you'll be off by increasing amounts. Or, if any or >>all of the other injectors start getting clogged, same thing. Actual >>fuel flow versus calculated fuel burned should indicate when/if the >>injectors are becoming clogged. Etc. >> >>David M. >> >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:06 AM PST US From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Flap Switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Allow me to inject a quick shot of nitro into this discussion of flap switches. Flap switches of the kind you have to hold down with your finger until they reach a particular position are - IMHO - something from the 20's. Eric Jones (www.PerihelionDesign.com) makes a little module (TSCMR) that is designed for the MAC/RAC servos (but could work with heftier motors as well, I think), that allows you to "dial in" a particular setting and forget about it. The motor will extend the control to that position, as indicated by a built-in or external potentiometer, and then shut off the motor. It's the electronic equivalent of the Cessna style flap lever, and IMHO a more modern way to reduce cockpit load. I plan to use it for my aileron reflexor as well as for computer control of aileron servo tabs and pitch trim. Eric, where did you hide your TSCMR product pages? I can't find them on your site any more. Dave Morris At 09:04 AM 10/12/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob White > >That could cause some problems in the installation Stan described if >you forget to center the panel switch from the up position, then try >to lower flaps using the control stick switch. > >Also, take a look at figure 11-15 at >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/switches.pdf If that type of >motor is in use, the switches and wiring will be different. The >control stick PB's could be done with DPST switches in that case. > >Bob W. > > >On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:03:21 -0500 (CDT) >marknlisa@hometel.com wrote: > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: marknlisa@hometel.com > > > > You might consider an on-off-(on) style toggle switch. The "on" in > > parentheses denotes a momemtary position; you can hold the switch in that > > position, but a spring moves the toggle back to the middle "off" position > > when you release it. > > > > If you install the switch with the momemtary on position down you can > > lower the flaps by holding the switch until you attain the desired flap > > position, then release. I've timed my flaps at 10 seconds to full down, > > so 3 seconds gives me approx 1/3 flaps. I can do it without looking at > > the indicator. > > > > To raise 'em just toggle up and forget it; the limit switch will cut power > > to the motor when the flaps are up. > > > > > > Mark & Lisa Sletten > > Legacy FG N828LM > > http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com > > > > > >-- >http://www.bob-white.com >N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (real soon) >Prewired EC2 Cables - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:28 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: FI engine fuel flow From: "Chuck Jensen" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" David M. wrote..... I have installed EGT and CHT sensors for each of the 4 cylinders. I didn't know that a change in EGT could be an indication of injector clogging. Do you have any formulae or somewhere to point me where I may learn more, please? David, the only sensors required to detect the partially clogged injector, is eyes and ears (perhaps our butt, if that's considered a sensor). If one of your injectors becomes fouled/partially plugged, it is effectively restricting fuel flow to that cylinder so it will lean out much earlier than the other cylinders as shown by the EIS (eyes) and is likely to be evidenced by start of rough running when the cylinder goes +50F lean of peak (ears/butt). The EIS system is most useful if you do a few benchmark recording of values at a few set points for fuel flow, rpm, mp, CHT, EGT during a standard lean test (see Air Flow Performance or GAMI websites). If one of your injectors is fouled, that cylinder will reach peak EGT at a higher fuel flow rate than the other cylinders. Ideally, with balanced injectors, all cylinders will peak within 0.2-0.3 gph and then you can run lean of peak (LOP) without roughness. So, no formulae, just observation---but it helps if you do the benchmarking so you know what is normal/abnormal during your observations. Chuck Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:34 AM PST US From: Jerry2DT@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starter problems --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com Hi Folks, The (Skytech) starter on my RV6a/O-360 just went south, and rather than spend $355 for a new one, I'd like to attempt a diagnosis and possibly repair the stupid thing... It has a whopping 377 hrs on it. To begin with, I suspect the solenoid. One of the terminals is slightly loose but this thing is sealed and crimped together so don't see a way to rip it apart and check the contacts. In days of yore, solenoids had a copper ring that slammed into these contacts and were frequently the source of troubles BUT you could buy replacement parts. Anyway, I know there is a simple way to electrically determine the resistance between the two solenoid terms and I have a multimeter that I hardly know how to use, so could use some expertise from this list. Aside from that, does anyone know of a source for new, used, rebuilt solenoids or starters. Thanks to all, and I second the "Hear, Hear, Hear.".... Jerry Cochran Wilsonville, OR ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:07 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: 10/12/2005 Hello George, Thanks for your clarifying follow up email copied below. Please confirm that I understand the recommended wiring arrangement: 1) One would initially apply electrical power from the aircraft's battery to the alternator's IR through a circuit breaker protected L lead by turning on a switch in the instrument panel. This same switch would also close the contacts on a battery relay thereby applying battery electrical power to the aircraft systems. (Having two separate switches for these two purposes is an option). 2)The alternator would begin providing electrical power after engine start when rotated at appropriate RPM. 3) One could stop the alternator from supplying electrical power while it is rotating by either opening the L lead switch or the L lead CB. 4) The internal voltage regulator in the alternator controls the output of the alternator by means of voltage sensed by the I lead which is connected to some electrical bus in the aircraft. 5) If one desires to have a warning light that would indicate alternator failure (low voltage) one should connect one terminal of the light to an aircraft bus fed by the battery and the other terminal of the light to the V lead. If the alternator fails the IR will take the V lead to ground thereby illuminating the light. 6) If one desires an additional means of stopping the alternator from providing electricity to the aircraft system one should put a large CB in the B lead out put of the alternator. 7) Damaging overvoltage output of the alternator should be prevented by the alternator's IR. Can you please confirm or correct the above? Thank you. OC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Matejcek" Subject: Controlling IR ND Alternators > Hi guys- > > I've seen a couple of posts over the last few weeks that make me think I > need to clarify a couple of points I made earlier. The info I've gathered > on the 60 A alt that Van sells is that the 'I' lead is the voltage sense > lead. De-powering it should not shut down the alternator output. The 'L' > lead is the signal lead. Application of +V to this lead starts alternator > output, and removing +V from this lead shuts it down. Should the > alternator fail for any reason, this lead is taken to ground. There don't > seem to be may automotive alternators that are wired this way, but the one > Van calls out is, according to my research. Also, the odd, unused lead > has various functions on various part number alternators, but on this one > it has no function at all. > > Hope this helps to clarify the situation- > > > Glen Matejcek ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:58:26 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Flap Switch From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" There are a couple other vendors that offer this functionality including: Vans Aircraft Extras which is the one I intend to use Michael Sausen -10 #352 wing assembly -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Morris "BigD" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Flap Switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" --> Allow me to inject a quick shot of nitro into this discussion of flap switches. Flap switches of the kind you have to hold down with your finger until they reach a particular position are - IMHO - something from the 20's. Eric Jones (www.PerihelionDesign.com) makes a little module (TSCMR) that is designed for the MAC/RAC servos (but could work with heftier motors as well, I think), that allows you to "dial in" a particular setting and forget about it. The motor will extend the control to that position, as indicated by a built-in or external potentiometer, and then shut off the motor. It's the electronic equivalent of the Cessna style flap lever, and IMHO a more modern way to reduce cockpit load. I plan to use it for my aileron reflexor as well as for computer control of aileron servo tabs and pitch trim. Eric, where did you hide your TSCMR product pages? I can't find them on your site any more. Dave Morris At 09:04 AM 10/12/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bob White > >That could cause some problems in the installation Stan described if >you forget to center the panel switch from the up position, then try to >lower flaps using the control stick switch. > >Also, take a look at figure 11-15 at >http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/switches.pdf If that type of >motor is in use, the switches and wiring will be different. The >control stick PB's could be done with DPST switches in that case. > >Bob W. > > >On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 08:03:21 -0500 (CDT) marknlisa@hometel.com wrote: > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: marknlisa@hometel.com > > > > You might consider an on-off-(on) style toggle switch. The "on" in > > parentheses denotes a momemtary position; you can hold the switch in > > that position, but a spring moves the toggle back to the middle > > "off" position when you release it. > > > > If you install the switch with the momemtary on position down you > > can lower the flaps by holding the switch until you attain the > > desired flap position, then release. I've timed my flaps at 10 > > seconds to full down, so 3 seconds gives me approx 1/3 flaps. I can > > do it without looking at the indicator. > > > > To raise 'em just toggle up and forget it; the limit switch will cut > > power to the motor when the flaps are up. > > > > > > Mark & Lisa Sletten > > Legacy FG N828LM > > http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com > > > > > >-- >http://www.bob-white.com >N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 (real soon) Prewired EC2 Cables - >http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:48 PM PST US From: Ken Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: FI engine fuel flow --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken Hi David A google search for "Deakin Leaning" is a good start as someone mentioned and it will chase up articles like http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182131-1.html The simplest general idea is to see what the max spread in your EGT's is during normal operations. Then anytime that spread (the difference between the highest and lowest EGT) goes significantly wider, look for the reason. Wonky fuel flow for one cylinder is near the top of the list for suspicions if the spread stays unusually high. Lots of other bad things like a burned valve or bad spark plug can cause it too of course but the EGT's will definitely show up a cylinder that has fueling problems. With an automatic warning of high temperature spread (or increased temperature spread since it was leaned) from a computerized engine monitor, we hope that it draws our attention to the problem before any engine damage occurs. Ken Chuck Jensen wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" > >David M. wrote..... > >I have installed EGT and CHT sensors for each of the 4 cylinders. I >didn't know that a change in EGT could be an indication of injector >clogging. Do you have any formulae or somewhere to point me where I may > >learn more, please? > >David, the only sensors required to detect the partially clogged >injector, is eyes and ears (perhaps our butt, if that's considered a >sensor). If one of your injectors becomes fouled/partially plugged, it >is effectively restricting fuel flow to that cylinder so it will lean >out much earlier than the other cylinders as shown by the EIS (eyes) and >is likely to be evidenced by start of rough running when the cylinder >goes +50F lean of peak (ears/butt). > >The EIS system is most useful if you do a few benchmark recording of >values at a few set points for fuel flow, rpm, mp, CHT, EGT during a >standard lean test (see Air Flow Performance or GAMI websites). If one >of your injectors is fouled, that cylinder will reach peak EGT at a >higher fuel flow rate than the other cylinders. Ideally, with balanced >injectors, all cylinders will peak within 0.2-0.3 gph and then you can >run lean of peak (LOP) without roughness. So, no formulae, just >observation---but it helps if you do the benchmarking so you know what >is normal/abnormal during your observations. > >Chuck >Do Not Archive > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:39:04 PM PST US From: N1deltawhiskey@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter problems --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N1deltawhiskey@aol.com Jerry, I just had a starter repaired (automotive type for Sube) at Romaine Electric in Seattle (not too far from Wilsonville). Turned out it was a broken spring behind one of the brushes which they replaced for less than $7. That after I agreed to pay $50 to have all the brushes replaced! They list Denso, Valeo, Iskra, Transpo, Prestolite, Bosch, Hehr, Leece-Neville and CPC as some of the brands. They are part of the Rexco group with affiliates scattered about. I do know they have one in Portland (A.S.E.) which you can find on their list at http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_buy/distributor_list_alpha.php?pf=true Don't know if they would work for your Skytec starter, but you could call them at 206-583-8600. It wouldn't surprise me if Skytec didn't use one of the common starter suppliers. As a precautionary note, I would not mention or hint "airplane" as I do not know how they would respond. Doug Windhorn In a message dated 12-Oct-05 10:25:13 Pacific Standard Time, Jerry2DT@aol.com writes: <> Aside from that, does anyone know of a source for new, used, rebuilt solenoids or starters. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:40:40 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Starter problems From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Jerry This is not very helpful but if it is the solenoid I would bet its an automotive part that Skytech has bought...Anyone know? I have a new Skytech starter on my new IO360 sitting in its crate in Corvallis...No you can't have my starter but I could measure the primary resistance to see what value it is...Have you checked yours for open circuit? You put the multimeter set to Ohms and put the positive lead on the little terminal and the negative lead on the engine block...If you have a break in the coil wiring it will read infinate resistance...I would expect it to read say 1 ohm or so for a 12 amp draw on the solenoid. If you want to call me we can do this real time...I will be out until about 7:30pm this evening (going flying) so your welcome to give me a ring after that. Frank 541-745-6386 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry2DT@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starter problems --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com Hi Folks, The (Skytech) starter on my RV6a/O-360 just went south, and rather than spend $355 for a new one, I'd like to attempt a diagnosis and possibly repair the stupid thing... It has a whopping 377 hrs on it. To begin with, I suspect the solenoid. One of the terminals is slightly loose but this thing is sealed and crimped together so don't see a way to rip it apart and check the contacts. In days of yore, solenoids had a copper ring that slammed into these contacts and were frequently the source of troubles BUT you could buy replacement parts. Anyway, I know there is a simple way to electrically determine the resistance between the two solenoid terms and I have a multimeter that I hardly know how to use, so could use some expertise from this list. Aside from that, does anyone know of a source for new, used, rebuilt solenoids or starters. Thanks to all, and I second the "Hear, Hear, Hear.".... Jerry Cochran Wilsonville, OR ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:51 PM PST US From: N1deltawhiskey@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter problems --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N1deltawhiskey@aol.com OOPs, pick the link before thoroughly checking - this is the one for Romaine Electric (still has a Portland affiliate). http://www.romaineelectric.com/locations.html Doug Windhorn ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:12 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Starter problems From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Yeah tell 'em its for a 220mph tractor...:) Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N1deltawhiskey@aol.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter problems --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N1deltawhiskey@aol.com Jerry, I just had a starter repaired (automotive type for Sube) at Romaine Electric in Seattle (not too far from Wilsonville). Turned out it was a broken spring behind one of the brushes which they replaced for less than $7. That after I agreed to pay $50 to have all the brushes replaced! They list Denso, Valeo, Iskra, Transpo, Prestolite, Bosch, Hehr, Leece-Neville and CPC as some of the brands. They are part of the Rexco group with affiliates scattered about. I do know they have one in Portland (A.S.E.) which you can find on their list at http://www.prestolite.com/pgs_buy/distributor_list_alpha.php?pf=true Don't know if they would work for your Skytec starter, but you could call them at 206-583-8600. It wouldn't surprise me if Skytec didn't use one of the common starter suppliers. As a precautionary note, I would not mention or hint "airplane" as I do not know how they would respond. Doug Windhorn In a message dated 12-Oct-05 10:25:13 Pacific Standard Time, Jerry2DT@aol.com writes: <> Aside from that, does anyone know of a source for new, used, rebuilt solenoids or starters. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:16 PM PST US From: Denis Walsh Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter problems --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Denis Walsh AHA I do have some experience with sky-tec starters. I whole heartedly recommend you call or visit their website. Sky tec is the only recommended repair station for their starters. They take great pride in reasonable repair and quick turn around. They definitely know how to fix your starter. Denis Walsh On Oct 12, 2005, at 11:19 AM, Jerry2DT@aol.com wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com > > > Hi Folks, > > The (Skytech) starter on my RV6a/O-360 just went south, and rather > than > spend $355 for a new one, I'd like to attempt a diagnosis and > possibly repair the > stupid thing... It has a whopping 377 hrs on it. To begin with, I > suspect > the solenoid. One of the terminals is slightly loose but this thing > is sealed > and crimped together so don't see a way to rip it apart and check > the contacts. > In days of yore, solenoids had a copper ring that slammed into these > contacts and were frequently the source of troubles BUT you could > buy replacement > parts. Anyway, I know there is a simple way to electrically > determine the > resistance between the two solenoid terms and I have a multimeter > that I hardly > know how to use, so could use some expertise from this list. > Aside from that, > does anyone know of a source for new, used, rebuilt solenoids or > starters. > > Thanks to all, and I second the "Hear, Hear, Hear.".... > > Jerry Cochran > Wilsonville, OR > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:00 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter problems --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N1deltawhiskey@aol.com > > Jerry, >(snip) Don't know if they would work for your Skytec starter, but you could >call > them at 206-583-8600. It wouldn't surprise me if Skytec didn't use one of > the > common starter suppliers. As a precautionary note, I would not mention or > hint > "airplane" as I do not know how they would respond. > > Doug Windhorn Doug and Jerry, When in doubt about how any potential supplier might respond to being told that this or that part will be used in an aircraft I do what I read here on the list some time back; I tell them it's for an RV I am building at home and let them conclude whatever they wish from that limited information. It has always worked out well so far. Jim in Kelowna Yellow paint... Do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:02 PM PST US From: Speedy11@aol.com Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Flap Switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com Earl, Nope, I don't necessarily want to disable the stick switch. My thoughts were that the normal position of the panel switch would be the centered position which would allow control of the flaps using the stick switch. Then, if desired or needed, the panel switch could be used instead of the stick switch to activate the flap motor. Perhaps I'm trying to make a simple thing too complicated. I suppose the switches could be in parallel such that either switch could control the motor. Odd that I needed to bring this up on the list in order to think it through, but it is more clear now. Thanks to all for your comments. I'm gradually learning this 'lectric stuff. Stan Sutterfield Hi Stan. I'm wondering why you want to disable the switch on the stick? Mine are both active all the time. Am I missing something? Earl >I want to control the flaps from both a switch on the panel and a switch on >the stick. I would like to have a flap switch on the panel that has three >positions - momentary up-stick-momentary down. The momentary up and down >positions are self explanatory. The middle "stick" position would direct control of >the flaps to a switch on the stick. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:21 PM PST US From: Earl_Schroeder Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Flap Switch --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Earl_Schroeder Hi Stan, I forgot to mention that both my switches are momentary in each direction with center off. I believe this limits the chance of activating both in the opposite direction at the same time. This might not be the best way for those who need to turn their head considerably to view the flap setting out the window. I can see mine from the corner of my eye and is well within the normal scan during the approach and landing phase. Learning 'stuff' is what makes life interesting... Earl Speedy11@aol.com wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Speedy11@aol.com > >Earl, >Nope, I don't necessarily want to disable the stick switch. My thoughts were >that the normal position of the panel switch would be the centered position >which would allow control of the flaps using the stick switch. Then, if >desired or needed, the panel switch could be used instead of the stick switch to >activate the flap motor. Perhaps I'm trying to make a simple thing too >complicated. I suppose the switches could be in parallel such that either switch could >control the motor. Odd that I needed to bring this up on the list in order >to think it through, but it is more clear now. >Thanks to all for your comments. I'm gradually learning this 'lectric stuff. >Stan Sutterfield > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:43 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Solid State contactors --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 10:06 AM 10/12/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Angier M. Ames" > >Hi Bob, > >My principal concern has to do with the considerable heat generated >in the battery master contactor... >just wondering if there was a reasonable alternative. How is this heat a problem? The battery contactor generally draws about .8A after it warms up for a total power dissipation of about 12 watts. While this amount of power produces a marked temperature rise, it's well inside ratings for the materials used in fabrication of the contactor. When I was selling these things, I had a couple of builders want to return "defective" contactors because they were overheating. I had to explain that virtually all contactors of any size (50A class or larger) ran too hot to touch under normal conditions. This isn't a big deal when the alternator is running . . . you generally have the watts to spare. However, during alternator-out, battery-only ops, this .8A would run a couple of radios! It's a good load to get rid of. This was one of the drivers for the alternate feedpath to the e-bus that you see in our Z-drawings. So, if you configure the system to limit power losses due to battery contactor heating to times when you have the power to spare, the lowly contactor will offer you a good return on investment. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:48 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: 10/12/2005 Hello Glen, First off, please let me apologize for getting my "Glens" and my "Georges" confused. I also apologize for using the letter "V" when I meant "L" in my paragraph 5) corrected and copied below: 5) (corrected) If one desires to have a warning light that would indicate alternator failure (low voltage) one should connect one terminal of the light to an aircraft bus fed by the battery and the other terminal of the light to the L lead. If the alternator fails the IR will take the L lead to ground thereby illuminating the light. Your 12 Oct 5:17 PM response immediately below leaves me confused. > Hi OC- What you show would work, but for point 5. The idiot light goes in > the > line from the switch to the "L" (lamp) terminal. Glen Matejcek A) If the incandescent idiot light is in series on the wire leading from the switch to the alternator L terminal and the filament in the bulb breaks or burns out then no current can get to the L terminal and the alternator shuts down and stops providing electricity. Right? Is this the desired arrangement? If so, why? B) On the other hand if one terminal of the idiot light is connected to some normally hot aircraft bus and the other terminal of the idiot light is connected to the L terminal a normally functioning light will be off as long as the voltage at the two light terminals are equal. But the light will come on when the L terminal is pulled to ground by the IR when the alternator fails. Right? Isn't this the desired arrangement? C) But what happens to the wire going from the switch to the L terminal, which is carrying battery voltage and current, when the L terminal is pulled to ground? Does that not create a direct short between the closed switch and ground? Is the CB in the wire going from the switch to the L terminal there to open in this situation? Thanks for your help. OC