Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:23 AM - Re: welding cable (Gaylen Lerohl)
2. 08:53 AM - Re: Re: welding cable (Charlie Kuss)
3. 09:33 AM - Re: welding cable (Bob McCallum)
4. 10:04 AM - Re: Re: Circuit Breakers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 10:22 AM - Re: Hobbs meter wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 10:44 AM - Re: Hobbs meter wiring (Gerry Holland)
7. 11:34 AM - Re: welding cable (Eric M. Jones)
8. 12:42 PM - Re: Re: welding cable (Bob McCallum)
9. 01:11 PM - Re: [Bulk] Re: welding cable (Kevin Horton)
10. 04:20 PM - Re: Fatwire (Eric M. Jones)
11. 06:43 PM - Resource..... (Jim Baker)
12. 11:38 PM - Re: Hobbs meter wiring (Werner Schneider)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: welding cable |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gaylen Lerohl <lerohl@rea-alp.com>
Mil Spec, Tefzel insulated wire's advantage is that the individual
strands of copper wire are tin coated to improve corrosion resistance.
#4 and even #2 AWG wire really isn't that difficult to work with!
Regards,
Gaylen Lerohl
Bob McCallum wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob McCallum" <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
>
>Extremely well! It's designed to be run over by trucks and to be dragged
>over hot, recently welded, steel, sometimes with sharp edges, in an
>industrial environment. Probably survive your engine compartment better than
>almost any other wiring material.
>
>Bob McC
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "peter goudinoff" <peterg@dakotacom.net>
>To: "AeroElectric-List Digest List" <aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com>
>Subject: AeroElectric-List: welding cable
>
>
>
>
>>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: peter goudinoff
>>
>>
><peterg@dakotacom.net>
>
>
>>as suggested, I'm installing #4 welding cable for my battery hookups
>>any idea how this stuff will do inside the engine compartment?
>>
>>peter goudinoff
>>Legacy #200
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: welding cable |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
Listers,
For those who object to the weight penalty of welding cable, I suggest
using marine battery cables. I'm using these for my battery to ground and
battery to master contactor cables. They use standard automotive
insulation, with tinned copper stranded wire. I live near the ocean, so
cable corrosion is an issue for me. I rejected using the welding cable, as
it's wire is not "tinned" and it is much heavier than needed. Marine cable
is just as flexible as welding cable.
I'm using standard aircraft Tefzel 2 AWG cables from the master contactor
to the starter. As Gaylen mentioned, it is not that hard to work with.
However, I feel that Bob N. makes a good point with his observation that
aircraft cable is stiff enough to possibly damage the terminals on your
battery.
Charlie Kuss
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder"
><jschroeder@perigee.net>
>
>But it sure is an order of magnitude easier to work with because of the
>flexibility. Win some and lose some on this item
>
>Do not archive
>
>JOhn Schroeder
>
>
>On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 21:06:48 -0500, bob noffs <icubob@newnorth.net> wrote:
>
> > hi all,
> > i have heard that welding cable is tough as nails. i have also heard
> > that
> > the toughness comes at quite a weight penalty compared to other cable
> > available.
>
>
>--
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: welding cable |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob McCallum" <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
Gaylen;
It's disadvantage is that in these gauges it is very stiff and can impart
sufficient load on a battery terminal to break it off from metal fatigue
induced by vibration. This is the reason that Bob suggests welding cable to
be superior to aircraft wire in this application. As for the weight
disadvantage, mentioned by someone else, the wire itself weighs exactly the
same whether its welding cable or mil spec wire, gauge for gauge in the same
material. The difference is only in the insulation covering the wire, and
that's only a very few ounces per foot. Total weight penalty for the whole
plane probably a fraction of a pound. The only real (although slight) weight
difference would be if you were to buy Eric's "Super CCA" wire which is
lighter due to a material difference. (aluminium)
Bob McC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gaylen Lerohl" <lerohl@rea-alp.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: welding cable
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gaylen Lerohl
<lerohl@rea-alp.com>
>
> Mil Spec, Tefzel insulated wire's advantage is that the individual
> strands of copper wire are tin coated to improve corrosion resistance.
> #4 and even #2 AWG wire really isn't that difficult to work with!
>
> Regards,
> Gaylen Lerohl
>
> Bob McCallum wrote:
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob McCallum"
<robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
> >
> >Extremely well! It's designed to be run over by trucks and to be dragged
> >over hot, recently welded, steel, sometimes with sharp edges, in an
> >industrial environment. Probably survive your engine compartment better
than
> >almost any other wiring material.
> >
> >Bob McC
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "peter goudinoff" <peterg@dakotacom.net>
> >To: "AeroElectric-List Digest List"
<aeroelectric-list-digest@matronics.com>
> >Subject: AeroElectric-List: welding cable
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: peter goudinoff
> >>
> >>
> ><peterg@dakotacom.net>
> >
> >
> >>as suggested, I'm installing #4 welding cable for my battery hookups
> >>any idea how this stuff will do inside the engine compartment?
> >>
> >>peter goudinoff
> >>Legacy #200
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Circuit Breakers |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:28 PM 10/22/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N1deltawhiskey@aol.com
>
>Gosh no! Who would agree to do that? Just flipping them off-on-off- a few
>times.
. . . and I'll add: It's best to do this while the breaker
is under load. You're INTENDING for the high temperatures of
electric arcing to "clean" the contact surfaces.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Hobbs meter wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 11:16 PM 10/22/2005 +0200, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider <glastar@gmx.net>
>
>Hello Charlie,
>
>sorry, it took a little bit longer to find it, in Europe it is from
>Conrad Electronics article 185990 an adjustable sensor from 1.2 to 8 mbar.
>
>They are from Micro Pneumatic Logic and actually from the MPL 503 series
>http://www.pressureswitch.com/products500.html
>
>They have more such products, also for larger load (503 is up to 20mA).
A caveat for incorporation of these switches into the aircraft
environment:
I've suggested many times that electrical devices fail most often
in small aircraft due to the effects of old age as opposed to usage.
Nature is a patient supplier of environmental stresses that are
almost never considered in the lab testing of a product or even
suggested on the product's data sheets.
These little pressure switches are amazing devices and probably
do everything the spec sheets say. However, if RECORDING elapsed
hours is an important part of KNOWING when or how to do things on
your airplane . . . then to what degree will you direct pilot's
attention to the proper operation of the Hobbs meter on a per-flight
basis? A checklist item perhaps?
I've suggested one way to control an hour meter at:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Gaging/Oil_P_Warn.pdf
Here, a very robust pressure switch is used for TWO tasks. (1) Warn
of low oil pressure (and master left on) and (2) operate the hourmeter.
This switch gets something of a pre and post-flight check automatically
and in a manner that draws attention to it's functionality without
extraordinary attention as a checklist item.
Of course, one can argue that the normally open and normally closed
contacts of even this switch can operate at variance with each other.
If one wishes to take the extra step, you can add a transistor and a few
resistors to the circuit such that only one set of contacts operate
both the low pressure warning AND operate the hour meter.
This is but one example of "robust design" with a goal of making
sure the desired operation happens while minimizing the cost of
ownership which includes both maintenance $time$ and operating
$time$. The secondary fallout is that failure of the switch to do
it's intended function is more likely to come to your attention
without being prompted by either an operating or maintenance procedure.
There are undoubtedly other solutions. I think this is a good example
of the though processes one should exercise whenever some relatively
fragile, sensitive, obviously NON robust product is being considered
for your project.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Hobbs meter wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland <gholland@gemini-resourcing.com>
Bob Hi!
I'm using a device called Power Genie to supply start and stop Voltage to
Hobbs Meter. About to start my Rotax Engine. OK?
Find it at:
http://www.powergenie.central5.com/
Regards
Gerry
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: welding cable |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob McCallum"
<robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
> Total weight penalty for the whole plane probably a fraction of a pound.
> The only real (although slight) weight
>difference would be if you were to buy Eric's "Super CCA" wire which is
>lighter due to a material difference. (aluminium)
>Bob McC
Just a couple thoughts--calling CCA "Aluminum" is arguable. There's has been
a long history of aluminum wiring problems but ZERO history of CCA problems.
As for weight, I think one of the best excerpts from the Aeroelectric List
on the subject is on Bob's website at--
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/economics_of_weight_reduction.html
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"Hey, it ain't rocket surgery!"
--Anonymous
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: welding cable |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob McCallum" <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
Eric;
I apologise for categorizing "CCA" as aluminium Eric, what I meant was, it is based
on aluminium wire which lends lightness. Yes I realise you've gone to a lot
of trouble to research the copper plated aluminium and then to develop an acceptable
insulation system for it all to eliminate the aluminium wire short-comings
of the past while imparting to your wire the advantages of copper. I should
have said "aluminium based" or "copper clad aluminium" not "aluminium". I
was trying to promote your wire not imply any failing in it.
Bob McC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
>
> Just a couple thoughts--calling CCA "Aluminum" is arguable. There's has been
> a long history of aluminum wiring problems but ZERO history of CCA problems.
> As for weight, I think one of the best excerpts from the Aeroelectric List
> on the subject is on Bob's website at--
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/economics_of_weight_reduction.html
>
> Regards,
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: welding cable |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
On 23 Oct 2005, at 14:33, Eric M. Jones wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones"
> <emjones@charter.net>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bob McCallum"
> <robert.mccallum2@sympatico.ca>
>
>
>> Total weight penalty for the whole plane probably a fraction of a
>> pound.
>> The only real (although slight) weight
>> difference would be if you were to buy Eric's "Super CCA" wire
>> which is
>> lighter due to a material difference. (aluminium)
>> Bob McC
>>
>
> Just a couple thoughts--calling CCA "Aluminum" is arguable. There's
> has been
> a long history of aluminum wiring problems but ZERO history of CCA
> problems.
How many years of history of CCA use in aviation are there? How many
aircraft are using it? Is the service history long and deep enough
to draw any conclusions from?
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 10
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
> Just a couple thoughts--calling CCA "Aluminum" is arguable. There's has
> been
> a long history of aluminum wiring problems but ZERO history of CCA
> problems.
How many years of history of CCA use in aviation are there? How many
aircraft are using it? Is the service history long and deep enough
to draw any conclusions from? Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Kevin,
Good question. Hard to answer. Many aircraft companies use CCA but it
certainly is not as old as the use of copper. See--
http://www.thomasnet.com/products/wire-copper-clad-aluminum-94430808-1.html
The point I have tried to make elsewhere is that if you have the expertise,
aluminum is the best choice of metal to use for conductors. Those power
company high tension lines you see everywhere are aluminum with a steel
core. Many economic factors figure into it.
The cable www.PerihelionDesign.com makes is made from ASTM B-566 10% Copper
(by volume) Clad Aluminum. The only proprietary thing about it is how on
God's Green Earth we procured less than a ton of raw material from which to
make it and how we talked anyone into making less than 10,000 feet of it.
This still amazes me.
Regards,
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge MA 01550-2705
(508) 764-2072
"Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what
to have for dinner." - James Bovard
Message 11
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" <jlbaker@telepath.com>
Ran across this neat/consice bit of an info table this evening....
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/wire_resistance.html
Jim Baker
580.788.2779
'71 SV, 492TC
Elmore City, OK
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Hobbs meter wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider <glastar@gmx.net>
Hello Bob,
here my 0.2 cents to this (air pressure) switch, however generally I
agree on your sight. I think the difference comes from me using the
Hobbs meter NOT as total engine time function instead of total FLYING
time function:
> These little pressure switches are amazing devices and probably
> do everything the spec sheets say. However, if RECORDING elapsed
> hours is an important part of KNOWING when or how to do things on
> your airplane . . . then to what degree will you direct pilot's
> attention to the proper operation of the Hobbs meter on a per-flight
> basis? A checklist item perhaps?
>
>
I have a cross-check with my GPS, as it does also log my flight time.
> I've suggested one way to control an hour meter at:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Gaging/Oil_P_Warn.pdf
>
> Here, a very robust pressure switch is used for TWO tasks. (1) Warn
> of low oil pressure (and master left on) and (2) operate the hourmeter.
> This switch gets something of a pre and post-flight check automatically
> and in a manner that draws attention to it's functionality without
> extraordinary attention as a checklist item.
>
>
I have this switch also incorporated into my plane, however, the first
one failed to operate at the beginning (got it replaced for free by B&C
with a new design) however my goal is to log plain FLIGHT time so this
approach does not work for me.
> fragile, sensitive, obviously NON robust product is being considered
> for your project.
>
>
This switches are in use in many application in the industries measuring
all kind of fluid and gases items (not necessary the same switch type)
they're also used since years in one of the flight schools here in
Switzerland with great success (as they charge by flight time).
So far 150 hrs without any problem hooked up on my dynamic system (I
should have noted that maybe as it is NOT an oil pressure switch).
Werner
>
>
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