---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/24/05: 24 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:22 AM - Re: Re: Fatwire (SteinAir, Inc.) 2. 05:03 AM - Re: Hobbs meter wiring (LarryRobertHelming) 3. 06:35 AM - Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Ken) () 4. 07:17 AM - Re: RV-6 Forced Landing in Richard La. (Steven Anderson) 5. 07:19 AM - Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Ken) () 6. 07:20 AM - Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Glen and Bob) () 7. 07:21 AM - Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) () 8. 08:13 AM - KMD150 MFG Voltage Requirements () 9. 08:26 AM - Re: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) (Jim Baker) 10. 08:34 AM - to hobbs or not to hobbs (Werner Schneider) 11. 08:39 AM - Re: KMD150 MFG Voltage Requirements (Gerry Holland) 12. 08:41 AM - Re: Re: RV-6 Forced Landing in Richard La. (N5SL) 13. 08:44 AM - SD8 alternator installation (bob rundle) 14. 09:01 AM - What? Noise issues? (Mike Christian) 15. 12:21 PM - Re: SD8 alternator installation (James H Nelson) 16. 03:11 PM - Quick antenna question (James Redmon) 17. 03:53 PM - Re: Quick antenna question (Earl_Schroeder) 18. 03:57 PM - Re: Quick antenna question (D Wysong) 19. 04:20 PM - Re: Quick antenna question (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 20. 06:55 PM - Fw: welding cable (bob noffs) 21. 06:55 PM - Fw: welding cable (bob noffs) 22. 08:57 PM - Re: Fw: welding cable (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 09:50 PM - Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 10:46 PM - Re: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) (Dave Morris \) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:22:54 AM PST US From: "SteinAir, Inc." Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fatwire --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "SteinAir, Inc." Just as a quick add-on to this discussion. We sell a lot of welding cable for batteries (thousands of feet of it over the past year), and have been quite happy with it. That being said, I recently recevied a sample of Perihelion's CCA wire for my review. I'm duly impressed with it enough that I hope to start stocking and selling it. Couple of big points for me. First, it's quite light weight when compared to the welding cable...and for those putting the battery in the back of a plane (RV-8 or RV-10), this is definately the stuff I'd recommend. I'm going to use it in our RV-8 for the long batt cable runs to the rear. It's plated in copper and tests have shown the performance to be up to snuff. Way above my head, but all I know is things work or they don't. This stuff works and works well. On top of that, it's a nice bright color! Just my 2 cents as usual. Cheers, Stein. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Eric > M. Jones > Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 6:19 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Fatwire > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > > > > Just a couple thoughts--calling CCA "Aluminum" is arguable. > There's has > > been > > a long history of aluminum wiring problems but ZERO history of CCA > > problems. > > How many years of history of CCA use in aviation are there? How many > aircraft are using it? Is the service history long and deep enough > to draw any conclusions from? Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > > Kevin, > > Good question. Hard to answer. Many aircraft companies use CCA but it > certainly is not as old as the use of copper. See-- > > http://www.thomasnet.com/products/wire-copper-clad-aluminum-944308 > 08-1.html > > The point I have tried to make elsewhere is that if you have the > expertise, > aluminum is the best choice of metal to use for conductors. Those power > company high tension lines you see everywhere are aluminum with a steel > core. Many economic factors figure into it. > > The cable www.PerihelionDesign.com makes is made from ASTM B-566 > 10% Copper > (by volume) Clad Aluminum. The only proprietary thing about it is how on > God's Green Earth we procured less than a ton of raw material > from which to > make it and how we talked anyone into making less than 10,000 feet of it. > This still amazes me. > > Regards, > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge MA 01550-2705 > (508) 764-2072 > > "Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep > voting on what > to have for dinner." - James Bovard > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:45 AM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hobbs meter wiring --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" The AFS ( also known as ACS2002 before 2005 ) product does a nice job of providing Hobbs and Tach Times. Tach time is the time the engine runs at rpm greater than 1249. Hobbs is anytime the engine is running. They have a website if anyone is interested. http://www.advanced-control-systems.com/ Indiana Larry, RV7 74 hours Total Hobbs Time and still grinning.......... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Werner Schneider" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Hobbs meter wiring > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider > > > Hello Bob, > > here my 0.2 cents to this (air pressure) switch, however generally I > agree on your sight. I think the difference comes from me using the > Hobbs meter NOT as total engine time function instead of total FLYING > time function: > >> These little pressure switches are amazing devices and probably >> do everything the spec sheets say. However, if RECORDING elapsed >> hours is an important part of KNOWING when or how to do things on >> your airplane . . . then to what degree will you direct pilot's >> attention to the proper operation of the Hobbs meter on a per-flight >> basis? A checklist item perhaps? >> >> > I have a cross-check with my GPS, as it does also log my flight time. > >> I've suggested one way to control an hour meter at: >> >> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Engine/Gaging/Oil_P_Warn.pdf >> >> Here, a very robust pressure switch is used for TWO tasks. (1) Warn >> of low oil pressure (and master left on) and (2) operate the hourmeter. >> This switch gets something of a pre and post-flight check automatically >> and in a manner that draws attention to it's functionality without >> extraordinary attention as a checklist item. >> >> > I have this switch also incorporated into my plane, however, the first > one failed to operate at the beginning (got it replaced for free by B&C > with a new design) however my goal is to log plain FLIGHT time so this > approach does not work for me. > >> fragile, sensitive, obviously NON robust product is being considered >> for your project. >> >> > This switches are in use in many application in the industries measuring > all kind of fluid and gases items (not necessary the same switch type) > they're also used since years in one of the flight schools here in > Switzerland with great success (as they charge by flight time). > > So far 150 hrs without any problem hooked up on my dynamic system (I > should have noted that maybe as it is NOT an oil pressure switch). > > Werner > >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:50 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Ken) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >>AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken >> >>at low RPM will cause extra strain on the alternator and drive belt. >>Consider reducing the total load in these situations, or >>switching the alternator off and drawing from the battery only, >>if the high load will be brief." The comments, regarding turning the alternator off, comes from Niagara Airparts installation instructions for their 40 amp ND alternator kit. This simply means IF the alternator is over loaded NEAR rated amperage at low RPM reduce load. If the overload is brief you can turn the alternator off and use the battery only. The latter case is not really a condition we normally experience. This should not be a problem if alternator is sized properly for intended load. Although keep in mind at idle you likely will not be able to make rated AMPS (see below). Why will it cause STRAIN. Simply you need more field current (heat) and pulley torque to make the same output at low RPMs as at high RPM. More field current makes more heat and higher required torque is more strain on the drive belt. Of course the fan is making less air but running at high amps is the heat maker, which is made worse at LOW RPM. Heat is the killer. Anything you do to reduce heat has a direct affect on the reliability. At engine idle (say 900 to 1000 RPM) your alternator will be at: MIN EST (7.5/2.9)x900 RPM = 2,700 RPM MAX EST (9.5/2.5)x1000 RPM = 3,800 RPM (NOTE: the numbers are pulley dia; There are two prime Lycoming sizes, 7.5 and 9.5. The typical ND alternator pulleys are about 2.5" to 2.9" dia. APPROX!) (Anything under 5,000 RPM (at the alternator) may produce less than rated power output, 7,000 RPM is best. Above 7,000 RPM output does not increase. The ND alternator Niagara sells is rated at 43 amps Min. at 5000 RPM. This data is from manufactures power to RPM spec for this ND model. Please note, you must verify all data for the alternator model YOU actually use. If you buy a ND alternator from Niagara they supply all tech data.) The simple way to make more power with the alternator is increase the engine RPM. Right. After the initial draw from the battery goes down you can than bring items on. This initial charge time my be a very short time. It is a good idea not to load on all the electrical items immediately after start. A strong battery will reduce the alternators work load overall. Lets assume you are using the Niagara alternator which is rated at 43 amps minimum at 5000 RPM. Here are some other ratings vs. RPM: 7000 RPM @ 46 amp 4000 RPM @ 40 amp 3000 RPM @ 34 amp 2700 RPM @ 30 amp (You can see you may only have 30 amps or less. You may have say 3 amps less output if alternator is hot. Alternator output drops with high temps. Running near the max available output at low RPM (hot) is definitely a strain, especially in a hot engine compartment.) (ND tech spec sheet: This alternator can make up to 50 amps max at 7000 RPM. I would recommend when you size your alternator or operate not to exceed 50-70% rated capacity to your max *continuous* worst case load. If you really have well over 30 amps continuous I would consider a bigger alternator. I kept my plane on an electrical load diet so I could use the smaller lighter alternator.) (The key is keep the heat down. If you don't believe me, bring you alternator to the auto electric shop, a real one not Auto Zone. Have them run it up and load it to max rating. Bring a temp probe. Measure how hot it gets. If you are getting over 100C you are getting real hot. They typical MAX temp is around 125-150C. However in the plane you should have some benifit of a blast of cooling air that you don't have on the test bench.) (In your alternator installation, cooling air and heat shield should be considered. Even in cars this is done. Some expensive imports cars with Bosh alternators where failing due to proximity to a turbo charger. So a heat shroud and air duct was added and solved the problem. ANY alternator of any type or brand will fail sooner if run too hot.) (What is the limit? The semi-conductors are operation rated around +150C, but you don't want to live there. With modern I-VR alternators semi-conductors are well insulated with heat sinks and dual internal fans. Reduce external heat as much as possible. To take a clue for the computer guys, the critical temp of the CPU is around 90C and it is recommended that you keep it 20C lower.) (Call Niagara for their professional opinion as this alternator has been in service for about 10 years in their company plane. After selling about 8 years they have sold them they have had no returns. There is a HINT.) (I have this ND alternator and I don't run it above 30 amps continuous, and about 33 amps intermittent. I am way under 20 amps, around 9-12 amps. I also have a blast tube at the rear of the alternator where the VR heat sink is and the rectifier diode pack is. My plane is glass panel/autopilot/day/night VFR. Lighting is full meal deal, with landing lights, 3-dual flash strobes/nav lights, cockpit lighting.) (The internal dual ND fans are going to make air, even at lower RPM, but remember we run the fan backwards which works but is not ideal. Heat is a killer. The Alt. can be abused for a short period, but you are killing it. With a good air blast tube, heat in flight should not be an issue. The better the cooling the closer to max rated output you can run continuously without exceeding reasonable temps.) HEAT IS BAD BUT HERE IS THE COOL PART: ND alternators shut themselves down for following: Over Voltage Shorted B-lead System fault signal* High Field current (over load)** *An internal fault (opens) can shut the alternator down to protect the plane or alternator. **This last item can occur with low RPMs and high output load demand. *** Warning light will come on with any of the above. The new source for the small ND alternators are thru auto electric wholesalers and are used on many industrial applications (forklift, tractors). Niagara Airparts has a Nice 40-45 amp unit with all the parts ($275) http://www.niagaraairparts.com/ George --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:52 AM PST US From: "Steven Anderson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV-6 Forced Landing in Richard La. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steven Anderson" Does any one know the background of an RV-6 registered to Phillip Chamberlain that landed in a rice field after take off this weekend. The home field of the plane and pilot are Lake Charles, Louisiana. Fortunately the pilot was not injured. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:28 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Ken) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >>AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken >> >>at low RPM will cause extra strain on the alternator and drive belt. >>Consider reducing the total load in these situations, or >>switching the alternator off and drawing from the battery only, >>if the high load will be brief." The comments, regarding turning the alternator off, comes from Niagara Airparts installation instructions for their 40 amp ND alternator kit. This simply means IF the alternator is over loaded NEAR rated amperage at low RPM reduce load. If the overload is brief you can turn the alternator off and use the battery only. The latter case is not really a condition we normally experience. This should not be a problem if alternator is sized properly for intended load. Although keep in mind at idle you likely will not be able to make rated AMPS (see below). Why will it cause STRAIN. Simply you need more field current (heat) and pulley torque to make the same output at low RPMs as at high RPM. More field current makes more heat and higher required torque is more strain on the drive belt. Of course the fan is making less air but running at high amps is the heat maker, which is made worse at LOW RPM. Heat is the killer. Anything you do to reduce heat has a direct affect on the reliability. At engine idle (say 900 to 1000 RPM) your alternator will be at: MIN EST (7.5/2.9)x900 RPM = 2,700 RPM MAX EST (9.5/2.5)x1000 RPM = 3,800 RPM (NOTE: the numbers are pulley dia; There are two prime Lycoming sizes, 7.5 and 9.5. The typical ND alternator pulleys are about 2.5" to 2.9" dia. APPROX!) (Anything under 5,000 RPM (at the alternator) may produce less than rated power output, 7,000 RPM is best. Above 7,000 RPM output does not increase. The ND alternator Niagara sells is rated at 43 amps Min. at 5000 RPM. This data is from manufactures power to RPM spec for this ND model. Please note, you must verify all data for the alternator model YOU actually use. If you buy a ND alternator from Niagara they supply all tech data.) The simple way to make more power with the alternator is increase the engine RPM. Right. After the initial draw from the battery goes down you can than bring items on. This initial charge time my be a very short time. It is a good idea not to load on all the electrical items immediately after start. A strong battery will reduce the alternators work load overall. Lets assume you are using the Niagara alternator which is rated at 43 amps minimum at 5000 RPM. Here are some other ratings vs. RPM: 7000 RPM @ 46 amp 4000 RPM @ 40 amp 3000 RPM @ 34 amp 2700 RPM @ 30 amp (You can see you may only have 30 amps or less. You may have say 3 amps less output if alternator is hot. Alternator output drops with high temps. Running near the max available output at low RPM (hot) is definitely a strain, especially in a hot engine compartment.) (ND tech spec sheet: This alternator can make up to 50 amps max at 7000 RPM. I would recommend when you size your alternator or operate not to exceed 50-70% rated capacity to your max *continuous* worst case load. If you really have well over 30 amps continuous I would consider a bigger alternator. I kept my plane on an electrical load diet so I could use the smaller lighter alternator.) (The key is keep the heat down. If you don't believe me, bring you alternator to the auto electric shop, a real one not Auto Zone. Have them run it up and load it to max rating. Bring a temp probe. Measure how hot it gets. If you are getting over 100C you are getting real hot. They typical MAX temp is around 125-150C. However in the plane you should have some benifit of a blast of cooling air that you don't have on the test bench.) (In your alternator installation, cooling air and heat shield should be considered. Even in cars this is done. Some expensive imports cars with Bosh alternators where failing due to proximity to a turbo charger. So a heat shroud and air duct was added and solved the problem. ANY alternator of any type or brand will fail sooner if run too hot.) (What is the limit? The semi-conductors are operation rated around +150C, but you don't want to live there. With modern I-VR alternators semi-conductors are well insulated with heat sinks and dual internal fans. Reduce external heat as much as possible. To take a clue for the computer guys, the critical temp of the CPU is around 90C and it is recommended that you keep it 20C lower.) (Call Niagara for their professional opinion as this alternator has been in service for about 10 years in their company plane. After selling about 8 years they have sold them they have had no returns. There is a HINT.) (I have this ND alternator and I don't run it above 30 amps continuous, and about 33 amps intermittent. I am way under 20 amps, around 9-12 amps. I also have a blast tube at the rear of the alternator where the VR heat sink is and the rectifier diode pack is. My plane is glass panel/autopilot/day/night VFR. Lighting is full meal deal, with landing lights, 3-dual flash strobes/nav lights, cockpit lighting.) (The internal dual ND fans are going to make air, even at lower RPM, but remember we run the fan backwards which works but is not ideal. Heat is a killer. The Alt. can be abused for a short period, but you are killing it. With a good air blast tube, heat in flight should not be an issue. The better the cooling the closer to max rated output you can run continuously without exceeding reasonable temps.) HEAT IS BAD BUT HERE IS THE COOL PART: ND alternators shut themselves down for following: Over Voltage Shorted B-lead System fault signal* High Field current (over load)** *An internal fault (opens) can shut the alternator down to protect the plane or alternator. **This last item can occur with low RPMs and high output load demand. *** Warning light will come on with any of the above. The new source for the small ND alternators are thru auto electric wholesalers and are used on many industrial applications (forklift, tractors). Niagara Airparts has a Nice 40-45 amp unit with all the parts ($275) http://www.niagaraairparts.com/ George --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:16 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Glen and Bob) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: >>From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Controlling IR ND Alternators >> >>AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >> >-AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" > > >Hey fellas (and gals)- > >There's a whole lot of anecdotal info flying about, and precious >little research. Mickey is to be commended and thanked for not only having >the interest and motivation to research his alternator, but also for >posting that info for others to benefit from. This is good stuff. He is also >to be commended for basically saying "this is how mine is.", as opposed >to"this is how all alternators work". >>Exactly. (Bob and Glen, GREAT. I agree Mickey's info is great. It is refreshing from the usual BS, lies and stories about I-VR alternators you hear the so called experts spout. I have the same 100211-1680 ND alternator and can confirm that is the way it works, howerver do not make assumptions about other models. I hope this opens up more open discussion that I-VR as a very well suited reliable safe option. Bob, is getting a hard-on when you say it Glen. I have side it 5 times, researching the subject I am comfortable wiring my IR alternator (ND) with out an OVM. If you use Mickey's model of ND alternator 100211-1680, follow the Niagara wiring diagram, operation and installation instructions, NOT Bob's Z-dwgs, which are not suitable.) (BTW: Glen what are you doing exactly? ) >This thread started out as a discussion of the rebuilt 60A alternator >that Van sells, Van's wiring directions, how this particular alternator is >configured, and other wiring options available to users of the Van's >supplied alternator. Mickey's is different. Or, perhaps I should say >that the alternator Van supplies is different from the vast majority of >alternators rolling down the road today. >>Don't know that this is a true statement. I think we're going to >>find they have more in common than in difference. (Bob, do you have some positive input or just a guess. It would be great if you got on board Bob and starting an intelligent dialog regarding evaluating the suitability and application of I-VR alternators instead of sticking with your stubborn rhetoric of myth, rumor and faults fear against I-VR alternators.) (ND alternators are similar. You can research the difference. Many (from 120 models) of the differences are mechanical (single V-pulley/multi groove, internal/external fan/VR). Electrical difference include output capacity, voltage set points and style of connector plug. Yes ND makes external VR models. The external VR models are large high output units. Reason for moving VR external for these large units is size and room for the VR, or that is what the customer wanted for commonality (my guess). Most ND alternators have I-VR. As a brand most of the ND brand share similar design features. All this is on the web if you are willing to take the time. When you set your design requirement, output, V-pulley, VR internal/external and physical size, only a few models come out, plus availability comes into play.) (Some of the older models are not easily found NEW anymore. For me that is a factor. Since my design goal is a NEW light weight, small size the under 55 amp model, the industrial units like the one Niagara sells filled my needs. If you need over 55 amp you need to go to the larger alternator. The Suzuki, Toyota and Industrial application are the most popular and have great service history in homebuilt aircraft. Light, less parts, inexpensive and reliable, what else do you want.) (With a ND you can get a replacement on the weekend at the autopart store across the street from the airport you can get a replacement.Try getting a replacement B&C anywhere on the weekend.) (Mickey's alternator is a small frame ND that does not use a remote voltage sense. It is the same model that Niagara sells and is for a Ishikawajima General S753 engine (folklift). Small lower amp alternators are still available new for the industrial applications but harder to find at auto stores. I have the same alternator Mickey has. This is also the one Niagara sells and one has gone for 10 years on a T-18 Thorp over 1000 trouble free hours (no OVM). I have the detailed spec sheet and internal wiring for this unit. It is a thing of beauty.) (Van's 60 amp alternator (ES 14684) is a 14684 Lester #. I don't have one, but the application is the Suzuki Samurai 86-95 and 89 Sidekick. Nippondenso part numbers: 100211-141, 100211-155, 100211-407. ) >One of the big issues with using IR alternators is the perceived inability >to shut them down once running. Well, the unit Van's sells is specifically >configured to do just that. Coincidence? I doubt it. C'mon folks, apples >to apples, please. >>I think all the modern designs will shut down gracefully when >>deprived of IGN input . . . as long as the one or two pieces of >>silicon that make up the control system are alive and well. (Glen C'mon. There is no secret plan. It is a coincidence. The IGN wire is for a car not an airplane. This is just a popular alternator that home-builders used well before Van started to sell them. Van no doubt choose it because they are available and inexpensive, not for the IGN wire function. REMEMBER it is a CAR alternator and ND had no plan to incorporate it into aircraft or use the IGN wire as an emergency shut-off when Suzuki, Toyota or Ishikawajima contracted ND to build the alternator for them.) (Don't get me wrong they are sophisticated devices, which work automatically and have logic and control functions (but for a car). However lucky for us they also work great in airplanes, but don't read too much into the fact the IGN turns the alternator ON/OFF. Emergency shut down function is not the intent of the IGN wire. If the IGN wire is HOT the engine is running, IGN wire off, the engine is off. May be the IGN wire could be used to shut the alternator down in an emergency, but if there was an over-voltage it would (should) shut down automatically. That is the point of the whole design, automatic OV fault control function and logic.) (The dooms day scenario is the VR has been by-passed and is no longer in control, and the alternator is driving itself to make power allowed by the winding and diodes. This is the theory. The good news it will not happen instantaneously. You have time to pull the panel CB on the B-lead. If you see any odd or non-normal operations, pull the CB and have the unit bench tested against the specs. If you want to use the crow bar and b-lead relay OK, but I would not. That is just my opinion.) Bob :"I think..as long as the one or two pieces of silicon that make up the control system are alive and well" (Bob are you are guessing? Why don't you let this to us IR alternator users. Guessing is not facts and not helpful. Glen it's great you got Bob you admit that you can control ND alternator. This is a big change from Bob's position that he ASSUMED the I-VR has no control once running and was prone to problems, which is of course a lie.) (Bob does not care about IR alternators. Keep that in mind.) (If you read the link below Bob says IR alternators should NOT be used and makes them sound evil with horror STORIES. Fortunately they are just that, stories with absolutely no substance of facts.) (I recommend a big-old CB on the panel for the B-lead as a back-up to assure you have have a HARD positive way to isolate the alternator. However every builder should check the model alternator they have.) (As far as using IGN wire to control the alternator, that is not how it is used in cars and therefore I would not count on it 100%. This is MY OPINION based on the logic that if it came out of a Suzuki Sidekick, wire it and use it like it was designed for, in that application. In a Suzuki car you never turn the IGN off with the engine on, and with the IGN off the engine is off.) (Since there is no absolute way to assure the IGN wire will work in a pinch use a positive way to cut the b-lead (your choice). I don't care for the OVM Bob sells because it is suppose to fix a problem that does not exist historically, with a solution that does have known issues and problems, the crow bar. The CB is simple and easy to use and understand. Noise from installing a CB is not an issue with proper installation and good aircraft grounds.) >I have spoken with the folks at Denso (Mickey's contact et al) to no >avail, as Van markets an O/Hauled unit. I have spoken with mass >over-haulers of these units. (Glen, I so glad you did your own research. I also researched it talking to large over-haulers, auto dealers (Acura, Toyota, Lexus), small auto-electric shops, Nippondenso directly, large auto-electric wholesalers and searched all data bases for auto safety, consumer complaints. The Model of alternator Van sells has no recalls, service bulletins or consumer complaints. When they do fail and need service, it is for brushes and rectifier diodes, mostly brushes. There has NEVER been any DOCUMENTED OV condition, causing damage, EVER. Is that right Mr. (Anecdote) Bob.) (I have even read where Bob claims he sees cars going down the road with the lights going dim than real bright, implying it is a ND I-VR alternator. Talk about wild anecdote, insinuation, innuendo. I have never see this. Of course most cars befor 1970 has alternators with external regulated alternators, with mechanical VR. No wounder Bob worries about OV he thinks the reliability of modern IR alternators are like ones made by ND. Alternators not only now have solid state control they have DIGITAL logic. The stuff Bob likes is analog. ) (An issue is quality of rebuilds. I buy only new units and have found sources for new small and medium (55/60 amp) units. Also keep in mind after-market part makers come into the rebuild picture which is another variable. Starting with a NEW all OEM ND alternator I feel is better from common sense. If you look you can find new vs rebuild; even the 60 amp unit can be found new and cheaper than what Van sells it for.) >I would respectfully suggest that people KNOW what they are dealing >with before turning the key. (GOOD IDEA, why did I not say that. Oh yea I did about 5 times.) >>NOTHING takes the place of good DATA, not even learned assumptions >>from experienced or credentialed crystal ball gazers. >> >>Bob . . . (WHAT DATA did Glen present? Yea that is what I thought.) (Bob that is brilliant, "credentialed crystal ball gazers". Who are you directing that weak back-stab at, in typical condescending verbose style. All those big words. Are you trying to impress, be clever or cover your insecurity. Just stop with your petty little crap.) (Bob you ARE the MASTER of anecdotal stories. What the hell. Lets see some data or facts Bob. How many STORIES are we talking about. You are full of STORIES. The rest of this document is full of prejudice & opinion lacking facts.) (As far as "credentialed" are you jealous? I guess not. We all know you think education is stupid and engineers useless. "When I was working on the Piaggio P.180 Avanti..." stories you tell to validate your creditability, Bob is your "credentialed". I am not ashamed of my engineering education or my professional experience.) (I only asked you if you where an engineer Bob because you implied you have engineering "credentials" and abilities, which where apparent you don't have from what you write. This in no way takes away from your experience as a technician.) HERE IS THE HYPOCRISY, WHAT BOB WROTE ON HIS SITE From: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Crowbar_OV_Protection/Crowbar_C.pdf >"(6) While the probability of regulator failure in cars is exceedingly low, it is >not zero. We have heard of ANECDOTAL stories of unhappy, high-dollar >events taking place in airplanes after failure of internally regulated alternators." > >(Ref: "Load Dump" Damage to Alternators with Built-in Regulators"; >Bob Nuckolls, 2/1/04) (As far as your anecdote Bob, "..stories of unhappy, high-dollar events.." What happened? What alternator? What failed? Why? What was the consequence? What Aircraft? What was damaged? ) (You have never given ANY facts, just stories) (Your sensational STORY is nothing more than MYTH and lies. You have been spewing this rhetoric BS for years about IR alternators is out of ignorance, inability or willingness to grasp different or new technologies. As far as "It can't be certified", I say WHO CARES, IT IS MOOT. These are experimental aircraft and not a Piaggio P.180. IS IT SAFE TO USE A I-VR? YES. ) HERE IS ANOTHER BOB QUOTE:Also from http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Crowbar_OV_Protection/Crowbar_C.pdf >"The Aeroelectric Connection does not >recommend the use of internally >regulated alternators on aircraft. >Wiring for these alternators has been deleted." > >(Ref: OVM installation, page 2.0, 6/5/5, see link above) (Bob realize these ND alternators are going to be used anyway, as is. New clone Lycoming's and the Egg Subaru engines all provide a ND alternator like Niagara Airparts 40 amp ND IR alternator.) (STOP with the snide remarks. I'll sit back and let you embarrass yourself some more Bob, but cut the crap. I am proud of my input to the forum, cutting thru the myths and rumors that you and your "followers who worshiped at the alter of anecdote" propagate.) (I presented facts that IR alternators are not dangerous, as you portrayed them over the years. I also stated when it was my opinion and when based on casual observation, but you jumped all over me for using the word Anecdote. That is sad because there your own words.Looking at just a few documents you have used this word at least 4 or 5 times yourself.) That is what you do Bob, brow beat people, play word games, nit pick every word to infinity until they are disgusted with you and quit. I like you too much to quit Bob. I am just giving you a taste of your medicine. I am waiting for the I-VR chapter in your book. May I suggest Chap title: Internally Regulated Alternators-A Great Option George --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:10 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Dear Bob: Once again you bring nothing to the table when it comes to IR alternators. Bob has attacked the words of another, again. This time they are from the installation instructions for Niagara Airparts alternator kit, which uses a ND alternator part number 100211-1680, application is for a Ishikawjima General S753 engine (used on industrial equipment such as folklifts). This is the same one Mickey reported on. it is nominally rated at 43 amps at 5000 RPM. At 5000 RPM it can produce up to 48 amps, max capacity is a little over 50 amps. (I also own this model). All comments are regarding this exact model. On the bottom of the first page of the below link you will see the paragraph Bob has spewed more useless ignorant comments. http://www.niagaraairparts.com/alt-instr.pdf (PARAGRAPH IN QUESTION AND OBJECT OF BOB'S RANT & RAVE) "(conditions in which a very high draw is being made of the alternator) at low RPM will cause extra strain on the alternator and drive belt. Consider reducing the total load in these situations, or switching the alternator off and drawing from the battery only, if the high load will be brief." >Time: 07:12:45 AM PST US >From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Controlling IR ND Alternators (THIS IS WHAT BOB SAID) >The only concerns I might have for alternator "stress" at >low rpm is cooling . . . this is hard to achieve on a Lycoming >installation when you leave the small pulley in place. >Even so, terms like "low rpm", "very high draw", "extra strain", >"reducing total load", and "brief" are all non-quantified terms >having no value for advancing either understanding or increasing >service life of the alternator. (AND AGAIN BOB) >An excellent example of how a few anecdotes can be >misinterpreted or woven into new and baseless concerns. >The caution cited has no foundation in physics or design >limits for the alternator. > Bob . . . (BASELESS CONCERNS!!!!!! Like worrying about an unlikely over voltage condition using a IR alternator, so add on a OVM. Ha ha ha ha ha ha) (Can't you just say you don't understand it and leave it at that?) (Bob again you attack every word and make bombastic pompous platitudes that add no value to the discussion. The Niagara paragraph is very much appropriate and your comments are negative and NON-value added. (FIRST, The FAA, NASA, Airframe manufactures have long abandoned the concept you must know every detailed spec of every component to operate an aircraft. This is an outgrowth of CRM, Cockpit Resource Management. What do you NEED to know? Info that you can't do anything about or use in flight is not provided. My first airline ground school we had to diagram a turbo prop gear box. Real useful if you are going rebuild it; not so useful for flying.) (The word STRAIN is an acceptable term and I will explain for those with an open mind. Words like "low rpm", "very high draw", "extra strain","reducing total load" and "brief" are acceptable words I understand completely. They mean nothing to BOB? Really, just belligerent.) (I know what they mean and exact values are not needed to express the point. By the way Niagara provides ALL the Technical Spec sheet the quantifies these values, so you must feel foolish saying this stuff an being so belligerent sometimes. Don't you? The ND Spec Sheet is DETAILED in every way for those needing the info.) (Alternator basics 101: An alternator takes mechanical energy and turns it into electrical energy. AN electric motor does the opposite. Some devices doe the same thing in one unit, i.e., work both as a motor and generator.) (The mechanical input is a torque/speed (RPM) or HP). The electrical output is (volt-amp). The maintain the same HP torque required goes up as RPM drops . It is somewhat analogous to lugging you car down in high gear at low RPM, in the sense it is not efficient. Also the internal rotor current must be higher to maintain the same output at lower alternator RPM, which makes more internal heat.) (Let's assume higher internal current (heat) and higher drive torque (belt load) is more STRAIN.) (What can the pilot do about it? INCREASE RPM or LOWER ELECTRICAL LOAD. Nothing but be aware of the fact at idle you don't have the same output as you do at higher RPM.) (The airflow of the fan is an issue, but ND internal fan's are efficient, but we run them in reverse (so does B&C). ND alternators have a VR that look at the field current and will shut down if the condition is too severe, i.e. at low RPM, high field current and decreasing electrical output. The intent of Niagara's comment is to make the user aware that low RPM and high load (near rated max) is NOT desirable. It is only important for user awareness and what corrective actions to take. The physics is not important to the average user, but the info is provided. ) (Chance is if you have an alternator properly sized this alternator strain is not an issue at idle, just be aware of it.) (Bob, If you don't know what it means just ask and don't attack. If you would like call Niagara, they will help you with out insulting or making condescending comments.) (BTW, I absolutely have nothing to do with Niagara Airparts. Also this condition is unlikely in our application, but it is impossible. Idle alternator RPM may be less than 3000 RPM. If you idle with every item on you could tax (strain) the alternator. Increasing RPM or reducing the total load is the proper action if needed. If you need to know, using a lycoming you need engine RPM, you may have a ratio of 2.6 to 3.8 depending on pulley sizes, e.g. engine 1000 rpm, alternator RPM is 2,600 to 3,800. Anything under 5000 RPM (alternator) is too low for efficient full output, ND model 100211-1680. In other words the pilot needs to have at least 1300-1900 RPM. Niagara can not give you this info, since they can not assume what pulley you are using. Since 1900 RPM is at the low end of the typical RPM for flight Ops it is not an issue. ONLY Be aware that at idle you may have less power available.) (Note: Of interest from the above Niagara instructions, Alternator Characteristics, paragraph 3, last sentence, talks to the fact the alternator SHUTS it self down, which it will for: Over Voltage, internal fault, overload and B-lead short. To reset the alternator you turn the IGN off and than on. Also the warning light will come on to indicate a fault trip. COOL. The I-VR electronics **(IC chip) is really a micro-processor or computer if you will. Future car alternators will have data links to the car's central computer. Still many will still be putting 1950's technology in their home-built plane even then. The days of external VR's for small alternators as the preferred method in homebuilt planes has passed. SHOW ME YOUR FAILURE ANALYSIS DATA BOB TO PROVE OTHERWISE. THAT IS WHAT I THOUGHT, BS STORIES. You are short on facts, long on opinion.) **(Bob once wrote he thought the only reason for IC chips in I-VR was for cheaper manufacturing, but the fact is there are so many transistors in the IC chip and functions that it is not possible without integrated circuits. If you made it like B&C makes it's external VR, it would be as big as battery.) (All the BS and miss understanding on this Forum is the result of Bob's duplicitous and slanted mis-representation of the facts. He hides behind attacks to bolster either his ego, insecurity or desire to promote one way of thinking.) (I have nothing against Bob and his ideas, but all this personal attacks are a waste of time. My comments only echo Bobs tirades back. I don't always agree with Bob, but that is OK. Bob, you are great and we all Love Ya, but stop the grumpy old man stuff.) (Where are your facts Bob? You told me you are a man of facts because in your work you only use facts. We are all smart enough to understand your technical explanation.) (Bob, your like a dog. Another dog has pissed on you favorite fire hydrant, you don't have any piss but you are going to lift your leg anyway. I don't want to be an expert or piss on you fire hydrant Bob; however you are leaving big steaming piles all over, smelling the place up, but feel free to spread you yellow stream of wisdom. Stop lying and dropping your piles of BS about IR alternators which you clearly have little experience with or care to support. You are clearly a expert with external VR alternators and your crow bar. Stick with that or put a chapter on I-VR in your book called: Internal Regulated Alternators a Great Option) (You noticed that more people are asking about IR alternators. I think people where afraid to ask before, but not any more. This is good.) (Bob YOUR whole rant and raves about IR alternators are baseless and has no foundation in physics or design limits for the alternator. You are a hypocrite extraordinaire.) ( You use words like Physics and think dropping this word lends validity to your attack. Back it up with facts Bob. WHAT PHYSICS? If you want to explain it and be the teacher, please do. Otherwise you are hypocritical in accusing everyone else being loose with the facts. Pompous, condescending, self righteous attacks on everyone who disagree with is not helping your image of benevolent teacher either.) (Niagara is in good company and has about 10 years experience with their product. Guess how many have come back or had a problem? ZERO. How many crow bars and B&C regulators have issues or came back? MANY. TAKE A HINT FOLKS.) (I am not saying you should buy their product. I am saying don't take everything Bob says as gospel and go out an make your own alternator set up.) Bob, what do you know about IR alternator design? I would love to hear it. Please explain real power, apparent power, reactive power, imaginary numbers and how it relates to alternator torque/speed/load and efficiency. Really I can't explain it and may be you can enlighten all of us. Let me close with something you would say, Good Day Sir, I said GOOD DAY SIR! Gosh darn it, son of ........STOP IT AND STICK TO FACTS YOU ACTUALLY KNOW. STOP THE ATTACKS AND SPREADING RUMORS ABOUT IR ALTERNATORS. IF YOU DON'T CARE FOR IR ALTERNATORS STOP GUESSING AND LEAVE US I-VR USER'S ALONE. MAJORITY OF THE BUILDERS ARE NOT INEPT AND YOU UNDERESTIMATE THEIR POTENTIAL TO UNDERSTAND. JUST PRESENT THE FACTS AND STOP THE "STORIES", LET THEM DECIDE. DON'T LET YOUR EGO GET IN THE WAY. IF WE DON'T SEE IT YOUR WAY YOU ASSUME IT IS IGNORANCE, AND NOT THE FACT WE HAVE CONSIDERED ALL FACTS AND INFO AND IGNORED YOUR PREJUDICE OPINION AND ANECDOTES , WHICH ARE LIES. PEOPLE ARE GOING TO USE THE IR ALTERNATOR. I WANT TO HELP THEM, AS WELL AS MYSELF BETTER UNDERSTAND THEM. HELP OR SHUT UP ABOUT IT. THANKS TO THOSE WHO HAD THE BALLS TO POST COMMENTS ABOUT IR ALTERNATORS ON THIS LIST. I KNOW I WILL NOT GET ANY USEFUL INFO ON THE TOPIC FROM YOU BOB. I WISH YOU WOULD BE MORE POSITIVE BUT OH WELL I GUESS WE HAVE TO LIVE WITH OUT (IGNORE) YOUR INPUT. I WOULD LIKE TO THINK I HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE NEW FREE EXCHANGE OF INFO ON IR ALTERNATORS BASED MORE ON TRUTH, COMMON SENSE AND FACTS THAN FEAR AND MYTH. MANY WHO WHERE BRAIN WASHED INTO THINKING IR ALTERNATORS HAD NO OV PROTECTION AT ALL, WHICH THEY DO, OR NOT SAFE, THEY ARE. THE RUMORS OF ACTUAL CASES WHERE ND ALTERNATORS FAILED IN TRAGIC AND HORRIFIC WAY, CAUSING MASS DAMAGE........ARE LIES. ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS IF TRUE PROVE IT........ LETS LEARN NOT BE MANIPULATED BY BS. IR ALTERNATORS ARE SUITABLE FOR AIRCRAFT USE, AND THE FACT THE FAA HAS NOT CERTIFIED IT MEANS NOTHING TO EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT BUILDERS. IT IS A MOOT POINT. YES YES YES BOB WE KNOW YOU CAN'T SUPPORT IT, WE GOT THAT. IT IS A FREE COUNTRY, AND YOUR PROPAGANDA WILL NOT CHANGE THE FACTS, I-VR ALTERNATORS ARE VERY RELIABLE AND FAIL PASSIVE. THE ND ALTERNATOR IS A SAFE AND RELIABLE DEVICE IF INSTALLED AND OPERATED PROPERLY. ALSO NOT OVERLOADING (STRAINING) THE ALTERNATOR IS KEY TO LOW TEMPS AND INCREASED SERVICE LIFE AND RELIABILITY. (HEAT SHIELD AND AIR BLAST TUBE ARE REALLY A MUST IN MY OPINION.) THE APOCALYPTIC SCENARIO THAT HAS BEEN FLOATING AROUND THAT YOU HAVE PROPAGATED AND ENCOURAGED IS BS. YOUR WUSSY COMMENT LIKE "SO CALLED OV PROTECTION" IN REGARDS TO (ND) ALTERNATORS IS A TRITE COMMENT. PEOPLE ARE NOT BUYING YOUR STORIES ANY MORE BOB. I AM SORRY IF YOUR CROW-BAR SALES DROP OFF. IF YOU CONTINUE TO ATTACK ME OR OTHERS I WILL RESPOND; OTHERWISE IF YOU STOP WITH THE BACK STABBING THAN PEACE. I AM HONORED TO BE ON THE SAME LIST OF PEOPLE LIKE: VAN'S AIRCRAFT, BLUE MOUNTAIN AVIONICS, RST ENGINEERING AND A CAST OF MANY WHO YOU HAVE ATTACKED. EVERYONE HAS CONTRIBUTED GREAT THINGS TO EXPERIMENTAL AVIATION AND AIRCRAFT. EVERYONE OF THESE TALENTED PEOPLE HAS BEEN ATTACKED AND CALLED IGNORANT BY YOU. I TAKE THAT AS A COMPLIMENT. George. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:10 AM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: KMD150 MFG Voltage Requirements --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Is anyone familiar with the voltage requirements for this unit? It appears to be 28V only. If this is true, could I install it and how in a 14V system? I am also baffled by how to connect coax to the connector at the back of the tray. Any insights here would be welcome. Bill Bradburry ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:08 AM PST US From: "Jim Baker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" (Is ThIs A mEnTaL hEaLtH iTeM fOr YoU?) Jim Baker 580.788.2779 '71 SV, 492TC Elmore City, OK ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:27 AM PST US From: Werner Schneider Subject: AeroElectric-List: to hobbs or not to hobbs --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Werner Schneider This Hobbs meter discussion left me searching the web: http://www.faasafety.gov/hottopics.aspx?id so to speak with faa words I'm logging time to service on my hobbs meter (or nearly), my switch is checked with an manometer ()and adjusted on stall speed (ok nor accurate as I normaly lift off a little later and touch down a little earlier). My engine monitor registers tach time and it's flight time would be Bob's hobbs meter time. Werner do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:09 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: KMD150 MFG Voltage Requirements From: Gerry Holland --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Gerry Holland Bill. Hi from UK! > Is anyone familiar with the voltage requirements for this unit? It appears > to be 28V only. If this is true, could I install it and how in a 14V > system? Mine is 28V or 13.5 Volts-1.0 Amps. I'm using 13.7V supply. > I am also baffled by how to connect coax to the connector at the > back of the tray. Any insights here would be welcome. The install kit includes the correct BNC type assembly from the also supplied Comant GPS Aerial. As I have access panels in Panel I'm connecting a manual BNC connection through access hole. Regards Gerry ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:05 AM PST US From: N5SL Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: RV-6 Forced Landing in Richard La. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N5SL That would be "Reeeshard" Louisiana to all us SWLA folks. After a litte internet research I found the following: 5668 CHUCK DR LAKE CHARLES, LA 70605 US (Calcasieu Parish) N296PC Here's a photo: http://www.vansairforce.net/rvoftheweek/2005/28.jpg N296PC 1st flight was July, 2004. It's powered by a Lycoming IO-320 160hp with an Airflow Performance Fuel injection system and a Hartzell Constant speed prop. The numbers are just a little better than Sir "Van" has published. I now have 109 trouble free hours on the A/C. Thanks and Safe Flying, Phil Chamberlain [rv6pilot at cox.net] Lake Charles, LA. N296PC RICHARD -- A Lake Charles man avoided serious injuries after crashing his experimental aircraft in a rice field near here Saturday morning. Acadia Parish Sheriff Wayne Melancon said Saturday that Phillip Chamberlain crashed his Vans RV6 two-seater aircraft into a rice field near the intersection of Young Road and Prather Creek Road. Chamberlain had taken off in the plane less than a mile from where the aircraft crashed. A spokesman for the Acadia Parish Sheriffs Office said Chamberlain had just finished working on the plane. The pilot was taken by Acadian Ambulance to a local hospital after suffering minor injuries. Steven Anderson wrote: --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Steven Anderson" Does any one know the background of an RV-6 registered to Phillip Chamberlain that landed in a rice field after take off this weekend. The home field of the plane and pilot are Lake Charles, Louisiana. Fortunately the pilot was not injured. DO NOT ARCHIVE --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:41 AM PST US From: "bob rundle" Subject: AeroElectric-List: SD8 alternator installation --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob rundle" For what ever reason I'm having trouble fitting this SD8 alternator into the single battery, dual alternator set. When looking at the Z-12 diagram the installation for the 20A alternator looks simple. Same as 60A alternator. Wire off of +ve terminal on start contector, through shunt, etc. Now looking at the SD8 installation wiring here: http://www.bandcspecialty.com/PM_OV504-500_RevE.pdf The alt does not connect to the +ve side of the starter contactor. Instead there is a single fuse forward of the firewall and 2 breakers in the main bus. Questions: Is the 15 amp fuse in front of the firewall a fuse link? If so what size should I make the link since I'm running the SD8 not the 20A alt. Where do I place the shunt? So I'm assuming the differences here are: The 2A fuse on the bus is the alt field fuse. The 10A fuse on the bus is the power. I'm sure this is easier than I'm making it but for some reason I just can't twist my head around this. Why is the SD8 connection so different than the 20 Amp alt. Dumb Bob today, http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:07 AM PST US From: "Mike Christian" Subject: AeroElectric-List: What? Noise issues? --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike Christian" Hello, I am troubleshooting the systems in my Rans S-16 build prior to closing up. I have the following systems: Two alternator one battery wiring plan per aeroelectric guidance. Grand Rapids EIS4000 and EFIS 1 Microair 760 and 2000 InFlightTech 404 SP Intercom Here are my issues: 1. Battery switch on (Odyssey PC680), EIS on, radio on (squelch off) and intercom on, I get a low level of static over the headset audio. Turn on EFIS and the static level increases several times over the background level. I have to put squelch at about 1/2 to cover it. 2. Actuate PTT and the LED in the trim indicator (located just above the radio on the panel) goes dim and I hear an oscillating tone over the headset audio. The intercom is located beside the radio. EFIS off same noise during PTT. Coax to antenna is rg58 and both ends have been reterminated. The antenna is a Advance Aircraft Electronics VHF-5T with about 10 feet of coax between the radio and the antenna. The antenna is about 5 feet from the radio. Any help you all can provide is much appreciated. I have no noise issues with strobes or any other equipment at this time. I will be firing the engine up for the first time soon, but I want to solve this first. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. Mike Christian ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:21:47 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: SD8 alternator installation From: James H Nelson --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: James H Nelson Bob, Run the SD8 system output to the capacitor regulator and stop there. Use a switch at that point to put the SD8 on line. Just be sure that the regular alternator is off line at that point. I am using the SD8 as my back up alt. I have both circuit breakers next to each other so I can pull the regulator for the main alt. and turn on the switch to put the SD8 on line. The SD8 will run fine as long as the capacitor in on line connected to the output. Jim Nelson ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:11:27 PM PST US From: "James Redmon" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Quick antenna question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" Grrrr...I left the RST antenna book out at the hangar. Can someone quickly give me the wire length for a marker beacon antenna? James Redmon Berkut #013 N97TX http://www.berkut13.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:54 PM PST US From: Earl_Schroeder Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Quick antenna question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Earl_Schroeder I'm not near my info either but you might try this URL: http://tinyurl.com/8s9s Earl James Redmon wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" > >Grrrr...I left the RST antenna book out at the hangar. > >Can someone quickly give me the wire length for a marker beacon antenna? > >James Redmon >Berkut #013 N97TX >http://www.berkut13.com > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:47 PM PST US From: D Wysong Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Quick antenna question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: D Wysong Howdy James - 75 MHz, 1/4 wave... that's about 1 meter per my calculator. Are you going to have to pay the FBO to install it for you? ;-) Good luck over there at TKI! D (Long-EZ in progress @ T31) ---------- James Redmon wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" > > Grrrr...I left the RST antenna book out at the hangar. > > Can someone quickly give me the wire length for a marker beacon antenna? > > James Redmon > Berkut #013 N97TX > http://www.berkut13.com > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:18 PM PST US SPAM: If the email is for spam, please report to abuse@dnsExit.com -By mail relay service at: http://www.dnsExit.com/Direct.sv?cmd=mailRelay Accounts will be suspended immediately if found spamming. Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Quick antenna question From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" MB 34.3 inches Michael Sausen Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James Redmon Subject: AeroElectric-List: Quick antenna question --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "James Redmon" --> Grrrr...I left the RST antenna book out at the hangar. Can someone quickly give me the wire length for a marker beacon antenna? James Redmon Berkut #013 N97TX http://www.berkut13.com ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:16 PM PST US From: "bob noffs" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fw: welding cable --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" ----- Original Message ----- From: bob noffs Subject: welding cable hi all, can someone volunteer a measured distance from battery to starter that would call for a change from 4ga to 2ga battery cable. probably a judgement call but that requires experience, of which i have little. it is an odessey 625 battery and a jab 3300. i live in n. wis. thanks bob noffs ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:37 PM PST US From: "bob noffs" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fw: welding cable --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" ----- Original Message ----- From: bob noffs Subject: Fw: welding cable ----- Original Message ----- From: bob noffs Subject: welding cable hi all, can someone volunteer a measured distance from battery to starter that would call for a change from 4ga to 2ga battery cable. probably a judgement call but that requires experience, of which i have little. it is an odessey 625 battery and a jab 3300. i live in n. wis. thanks bob noffs ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:57:57 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fw: welding cable --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:48 PM 10/24/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "bob noffs" > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: bob noffs >To: aeroelectric list >Subject: Fw: welding cable > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: bob noffs >To: aeroelectric list >Subject: welding cable > > >hi all, > can someone volunteer a measured distance from battery to starter that > would call for a change from 4ga to 2ga battery cable. probably a > judgement call but that requires experience, of which i have little. it > is an odessey 625 battery and a jab 3300. i live in n. wis. thanks The larger wire is indicated when the battery is not next to the engine. On seaplanes with engine in a tall nacelle and batteries in the nose, 0 AWG or parallel runs of 2 AWG are often used. In a Longez with battery in nose and engine in tail, 2 AWG is indicated. On an RV with battery on firewall, 4 AWG is most adequate. If your battery is behind the seats in a 2-seat, tractor airplane, 4AWG will probably get you by. Personally, I'd run 2 AWG battery feeders even if the stuff on the firewall is still 4 AWG. The only time it would make much difference is for cold weather cranking. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:17 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:20 AM 10/24/2005 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: > >Dear Bob: > >Once again you bring nothing to the table when it comes to IR alternators. >Bob has attacked the words of another, again. This time they are from the >installation instructions for Niagara Airparts alternator kit, which uses >a ND >alternator part number 100211-1680, application is for a Ishikawjima General >S753 engine (used on industrial equipment such as folklifts). This is the >same one Mickey reported on. it is nominally rated at 43 amps at 5000 RPM. >At 5000 RPM it can produce up to 48 amps, max capacity is a little over 50 >amps. (I also own this model). All comments are regarding this exact model. >On the bottom of the first page of the below link you will see the >paragraph Bob >has spewed more useless ignorant comments. >(Chance is if you have an alternator properly sized this alternator strain >is not >an issue at idle, just be aware of it.) > >(Bob, If you don't know what it means just ask and don't attack. If you >would like >call Niagara, they will help you with out insulting or making condescending >comments.) George, George . . . I have lived, worked and designed with DC systems driven by generators and alternators for almost 40 years. We have mockups of every electrical system on our production line. We turn alternators and generators ON and OFF at will at at any system load and any rpm and not once have we detected any reason for modifying this behavior to "reduce strain" on the alternator for the purpose of increasing service life or avoiding damage. If anyone shipped us an alternator with such an admonition in their installation manual, I would be most suspicious of their ability to fabricate and deliver products suitable for our needs . . . not because of any perceived weakness in their machine but an obvious weakness in their understanding. >(BTW, I absolutely have nothing to do with Niagara Airparts. Also this >condition >is unlikely in our application, but it is impossible. Idle alternator RPM >may be >less than 3000 RPM. If you idle with every item on you could tax (strain) the >alternator. Increasing RPM or reducing the total load is the proper action if >needed. If you need to know, using a lycoming you need engine RPM, you may >have >a ratio of 2.6 to 3.8 depending on pulley sizes, e.g. engine 1000 rpm, >alternator >RPM is 2,600 to 3,800. Anything under 5000 RPM (alternator) is too low for >efficient full output, ND model 100211-1680. In other words the pilot >needs to >have at least 1300-1900 RPM. Niagara can not give you this info, since >they can >not assume what pulley you are using. Since 1900 RPM is at the low end of the >typical RPM for flight Ops it is not an issue. ONLY Be aware that at idle you >may have less power available.) The idea that turning the alternator ON and OFF under ANY of the cited conditions being injurious to the alternator (or any other part of the system) is without foundation in physics or practice. Anyone who makes such a statement in their literature has demonstrated a lack of understanding . . . I won't use the word ignorance since you have chosen to take such offense at it. >(Note: Of interest from the above Niagara instructions, Alternator >Characteristics, >paragraph 3, last sentence, talks to the fact the alternator SHUTS it self >down, >which it will for: Over Voltage, internal fault, overload and B-lead >short. To >reset the alternator you turn the IGN off and than on. Also the warning >light will >come on to indicate a fault trip. COOL. The I-VR electronics **(IC chip) >is really >a micro-processor or computer if you will. Future car alternators will >have data >links to the car's central computer. Still many will still be putting 1950's >technology in their home-built plane even then. The days of external VR's for >small alternators as the preferred method in homebuilt planes has passed. >SHOW >ME YOUR FAILURE ANALYSIS DATA BOB TO PROVE OTHERWISE. THAT >IS WHAT I THOUGHT, BS STORIES. You are short on facts, long on opinion.) I have NO facts on the design of anyone's chips. Therefore I cannot and never have rendered an opinion about any of them other than to state that I cannot recommend them as suited to my design goals until I do understand them. >**(Bob once wrote he thought the only reason for IC chips in I-VR was for >cheaper manufacturing, but the fact is there are so many transistors in >the IC >chip and functions that it is not possible without integrated circuits. If >you >made it like B&C makes it's external VR, it would be as big as battery.) Well duh . . . of course a single chip design offers less expensive manufacturing . . . I can't imagine anyone believing anything different. And yes, integrated circuits offer a means for compacting many more features (necessary or not, wanted or not, certifiable under contemporary design goals or not) onto a single piece of silicon. Big as a battery? Your hyperbole is expanding at an ever increasing rate . . . >(All the BS and miss understanding on this Forum is the result of Bob's >duplicitous >and slanted mis-representation of the facts. He hides behind attacks to >bolster >either his ego, insecurity or desire to promote one way of thinking.) > >(I have nothing against Bob and his ideas, but all this personal attacks >are a waste >of time. My comments only echo Bobs tirades back. I don't always agree >with Bob, >but that is OK. Bob, you are great and we all Love Ya, but stop the >grumpy old man >stuff.) You've blown it now George. Your behavior has demonstrated that you DO have a LOT against me and it has nothing to do with ideas or facts. I've attacked nobody. It's not my style. I'm also not grumpy but I will have to admit to getting older . . . >(Where are your facts Bob? You told me you are a man of facts because in your >work you only use facts. We are all smart enough to understand your technical >explanation.) I have explained my lack of knowledge (ignorance if you will) to you several times George. This is the reason for the new experiments. >(Bob, your like a dog. Another dog has pissed on you favorite fire hydrant, >you don't have any piss but you are going to lift your leg anyway. I don't >want to >be an expert or piss on you fire hydrant Bob; however you are leaving big >steaming >piles all over, smelling the place up, but feel free to spread you yellow >stream of >wisdom. Stop lying and dropping your piles of BS about IR alternators >which you >clearly have little experience with or care to support. You are clearly a >expert >with external VR alternators and your crow bar. Stick with that or put a >chapter on >I-VR in your book called: Internal Regulated Alternators a Great Option) Gee George, for someone who "loves" me, your sure flinging a lot of unsavory adjectives around. >(You noticed that more people are asking about IR alternators. I think >people where >afraid to ask before, but not any more. This is good.) > >(Bob YOUR whole rant and raves about IR alternators are baseless and has no >foundation in physics or design limits for the alternator. You are a >hypocrite >extraordinaire.) > >( You use words like Physics and think dropping this word lends validity >to your >attack. Back it up with facts Bob. WHAT PHYSICS? If you want to explain it >and >be the teacher, please do. Otherwise you are hypocritical in accusing >everyone >else being loose with the facts. Pompous, condescending, self righteous >attacks >on everyone who disagree with is not helping your image of benevolent teacher >either.) > >(Niagara is in good company and has about 10 years experience with their >product. >Guess how many have come back or had a problem? ZERO. How many crow bars >and B&C regulators have issues or came back? MANY. TAKE A HINT FOLKS.) Really? How many? And of what has been returned, what were the returns as a percentage of fielded product? What would you consider to be a marketing goal for field returns? I belive that 1% for the last year's deliveries and 10% for the fleet after 10 years would be an exemplary performance. We have suppliers to the certified world who can only dream about such numbers. I belive B&C's track record meets or surpasses these goals. I've seen their rework bench. There have been a LOT of product returned for damage but VERY few for failure . . . well under 10% for the nearly 20 years of production. >(I am not saying you should buy their product. I am saying don't take >everything >Bob says as gospel and go out an make your own alternator set up.) >Bob, what do you know about IR alternator design? I would love to hear it. What do YOU know sir? I worked in a DC machinery house for over 9 years and have maintained a close association with it and two others for over 30 years. I designed regulators for the alternators and generators we produced and overhauled. > Please >explain real power, apparent power, reactive power, imaginary numbers and >how it >relates to alternator torque/speed/load and efficiency. Really I can't >explain it >and may be you can enlighten all of us. In the upcoming experiments, I plan to do just that . . . >Let me close with something you would say, > >Good Day Sir, I said GOOD DAY SIR! > >Gosh darn it, son of ........STOP IT AND STICK TO FACTS YOU >ACTUALLY KNOW. > >STOP THE ATTACKS AND SPREADING RUMORS ABOUT IR >ALTERNATORS. What rumors? I've stated nothing that was not offered by the persons who experienced problems first hand. >IF YOU DON'T CARE FOR IR ALTERNATORS STOP GUESSING >AND LEAVE US I-VR USER'S ALONE. I'm increasingly amazed at you sir. I've never said that I didn't care for IR Alternators. In fact, the whole purpose of the planned testing is to figure a way to integrate the modern IR Alternator into aircraft under design goals I've worked under for decades. How is this an attack? How can this be construed as an effort to deny anyone the advantages of exploiting this great technology? You clearly don't understand anything I've offered or the reasons for offering it. >MAJORITY OF THE BUILDERS ARE NOT INEPT AND YOU >UNDERESTIMATE THEIR POTENTIAL TO UNDERSTAND. JUST >PRESENT THE FACTS AND STOP THE "STORIES", LET THEM >DECIDE. >IR ALTERNATORS ARE SUITABLE FOR AIRCRAFT USE, AND THE FACT >THE FAA HAS NOT CERTIFIED IT MEANS NOTHING TO EXPERIMENTAL >AIRCRAFT BUILDERS. IT IS A MOOT POINT. You sir are the one who twists words. The vast majority of statements you attribute to me are contradictions or mis-statements of fact. An now that you're shouting at me I would judge that all opportunities for a rational exchange of ideas have passed. >YES YES YES BOB WE KNOW YOU CAN'T SUPPORT IT, WE GOT THAT. >IT IS A FREE COUNTRY, AND YOUR PROPAGANDA WILL NOT CHANGE >THE FACTS, I-VR ALTERNATORS ARE VERY RELIABLE AND FAIL >PASSIVE. >I AM HONORED TO BE ON THE SAME LIST OF PEOPLE LIKE: >VAN'S AIRCRAFT, BLUE MOUNTAIN AVIONICS, RST ENGINEERING >AND A CAST OF MANY WHO YOU HAVE ATTACKED. >EVERYONE HAS CONTRIBUTED GREAT THINGS TO EXPERIMENTAL >AVIATION AND AIRCRAFT. EVERYONE OF THESE TALENTED PEOPLE >HAS BEEN ATTACKED AND CALLED IGNORANT BY YOU. I TAKE THAT >AS A COMPLIMENT. If your pleased, then I'm pleased. But I sincerely wish it was for more pleasant reasons. When and if you're ready to speak in civil words and tones, I'd be pleased to have your feedback on the outcome of experiments and design trade-offs that are forthcoming. My father-in-law finished mounting my 2 hp DC motor and Micky's alternator on a makeshift drive stand. Dee and I are concentrating on getting a production order out for a customer but I hope to run the alternator next weekend. All activities will be measured, recorded and the results posted. THIS is how I choose to mitigate my own ignorance George. Care to join us? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:34 PM PST US From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Whew! When Bob shoots down some idea I have that was not well thought-out, it causes me to re-think my logic and look for data. Some people take this personally and become emotional. The wise aircraft builder will use the opportunity to question his assumptions and look for more data, instead of getting defensive. I'm putting a John Deere 18A dynamo and regulator on my engine and running it through a relay with an OV detector. Others in my builders group are looking at the ND alternators. I would like to know as much about these configurations as possible, because the safety of my airplane are at stake. That is not possible when the only sounds I hear are yelling and screaming and emotional defensiveness. I'm looking forward to more cool logic, data, and real world tests. Dave Morris www.N75UP.com