---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/26/05: 40 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:57 AM - Re: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) (Will N. Stevenson) 2. 03:08 AM - Re: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) (Jim Jewell) 3. 05:39 AM - Re: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) (LarryRobertHelming) 4. 05:44 AM - Re: Unnecessary personal invective. (John Schroeder) 5. 06:47 AM - Re: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) (Steve Thomas) 6. 06:48 AM - Re: Unnecessary personal invective. RIGHT ON (Frank Stringham) 7. 07:12 AM - Re: Feng Shui of Electromagnetism... (Eric M. Jones) 8. 07:29 AM - Re: Unnecessary personal invective. (Chuck Jensen) 9. 08:06 AM - Re: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) (Steve Eberhart) 10. 08:23 AM - Re: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 08:26 AM - Re: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 08:47 AM - Re: Re: Controlling IRE AND Arbalestors (Bob) (Eric M. Jones) 13. 09:34 AM - Re: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 10:12 AM - Re: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) (Guy Buchanan) 15. 10:40 AM - Apologies (Guy Buchanan) 16. 12:32 PM - Apology as Well (Will N. Stevenson) 17. 12:55 PM - Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations (Ralph E. Capen) 18. 01:25 PM - Re: Unnecessary personal invective. (Chuck Jensen) 19. 01:44 PM - Re: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 20. 02:31 PM - Re: IGNORE (Rodney Dunham) 21. 02:50 PM - Re: *Delete me now* Unnecessary personal invective. (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 22. 03:29 PM - Re: Re: IGNORE (Matt Prather) 23. 03:46 PM - Re: Re: IGNORE (Harley) 24. 04:20 PM - Re: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations (Dan Beadle) 25. 04:37 PM - Re: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations (D Wysong) 26. 04:43 PM - Re: Unnecessary personal invective. RIGHT ON (Matt Prather) 27. 05:01 PM - Re: Re: IGNORE (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 28. 05:12 PM - Re: Apology as Well (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 29. 06:02 PM - Great Words, Bob (Ed Anderson) 30. 06:36 PM - Re: Unnecessary personal invective. (Michael Duran) 31. 06:47 PM - Re: Unnecessary personal invective. (Richard Riley) 32. 06:58 PM - Re: Unnecessary personal invective. (Jim Baker) 33. 07:08 PM - Re: Re: IGNORE (Jim Baker) 34. 07:51 PM - Re: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations (AI Nut) 35. 07:52 PM - Re: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations (Richard E. Tasker) 36. 07:58 PM - Re: Re: IGNORE, personal invictive, etc... (Richard E. Tasker) 37. 07:58 PM - Re: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 38. 08:29 PM - Re: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations (Dave Morris \) 39. 08:40 PM - Re: Re: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations (Jim Baker) 40. 10:16 PM - Re: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations (Richard E. Tasker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:57:27 AM PST US From: "Will N. Stevenson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Will N. Stevenson" Bob, Amen to what Kingsley said. This person is creating a combative and dysfunctional atmosphere in a place that is usually full of learning and camaraderie. It's not good for the List. Bob, please don't let his kind of behavior continue, huh? Other lists I've been on would have tossed his butt out by now. It's a good thing to be tolerant of dissenting opinions, but this guy goes way beyond that with his personal attacks and rants. Will > Bob, > > Why oh why do you keep replying to that man ? > > Whether he is right or wrong, he has a serious personality problem that > nobody on this list including you can fix > Regards > Kingsley in Oz. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:08:16 AM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" Listers, As our fleet ventures across this sometimes turbulent sea of learning it becomes increasingly obvious that some ships are better suited for the journey. Some are faster, some can carry more cargo, some find the course increasingly difficult to maintain. We have lost a few ships here and there along the way. Each has its' reason to join in the endeavour. For the sake of the few the many slow the pace with the shared objective of joining forces and weathering these storms of confusion together. Sadly it appears that in spite of all the recent efforts to assist, one of our fleet's ships fate has been decided. fate has struck again!. He has suffered a fate of unknown cause, possibly he's been torpedoed by the unknown. He is afire, dead in the water and sinking fast. All hands on deck! lets all give a hearty three cheers and a heart felt salute to our sinking comrade. Throw the wreath on the water. The time has come to forge onward. Jim in Kelowna do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Will N. Stevenson" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Will N. Stevenson" > > > Bob, > > Amen to what Kingsley said. This person is creating a combative and > dysfunctional atmosphere in a place that is usually full of learning and > camaraderie. It's not good for the List. Bob, please don't let his kind > of > behavior continue, huh? Other lists I've been on would have tossed his > butt > out by now. It's a good thing to be tolerant of dissenting opinions, but > this guy goes way beyond that with his personal attacks and rants. > > Will > > > Bob, >> >> Why oh why do you keep replying to that man ? >> >> Whether he is right or wrong, he has a serious personality problem that >> nobody on this list including you can fix > >> Regards >> Kingsley in Oz. > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:25 AM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" Written by a true Navy man -- I assume? do not archive If the other guy is right, we should want to know more -- but I feel I already know what I want. It is in the archives already. Although Bob has posted that he would remove from his book the chapter on IR alternator and it's installation, I feel Bob's book should cover the IR alternator and its installation because of its usefulness to experimental plane builders. Bob has stated he has no experience with the IR alt. and it does not meet his performance/control goals. I think Bob is big enough to take it upon himself and LEARN about it and for the OBAM interests cover it for those who decide it meets their goals. He has the ability for sure to fit this, somewhat of a different shaped topic, into his perfectly shaped world. He just needs to open his attitude about it. Where would we be today if during the horse and buggy days of yesterday no one would LEARN about the automobile? We know...... But some did not back then. There were some who understood the horse and it was proven. The horse had a history of serving during peace and war. It worked in the fields and helped build many man made projects/dams/roads/railroads, etc., etc. It met the goals they had set. I appreciate all Bob has done for the OBAM community. I do feel however that at times he does go a bit over the limit in criticizing others, like Vans Aircraft for example, because they support builders using IR alternators and they continue to advocate use of the circuit breaker rather than bus architecture. I have not heard of Vans issuing advice directories on the IR alternators because of problems they are getting back from the field. Vans sells thousands of planes and some percentage of those have the IR alternator. It would be interesting to know from the Vans network what the break down is and what the experience has been. I am sure no one knows all these answers. But the results of a survey would sure be nice to know. do not archive Indiana Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" > > Listers, > > As our fleet ventures across this sometimes turbulent sea of learning it > becomes increasingly obvious that some ships are better suited for the > journey. Some are faster, some can carry more cargo, some find the course > increasingly difficult to maintain. We have lost a few ships here and > there > along the way. > Each has its' reason to join in the endeavour. For the sake of the few the > many slow the pace with the shared objective of joining forces and > weathering these storms of confusion together. > Sadly it appears that in spite of all the recent efforts to assist, one of > our fleet's ships fate has been decided. fate has struck again!. He has > suffered a fate of unknown cause, possibly he's been torpedoed by the > unknown. He is afire, dead in the water and sinking fast. > All hands on deck! lets all give a hearty three cheers and a heart felt > salute to our sinking comrade. > Throw the wreath on the water. > > The time has come to forge onward. > > Jim in Kelowna do not archive > > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > Bob, >>> >>> Why oh why do you keep replying to that man ? >>> >>> Whether he is right or wrong, he has a serious personality problem that >>> nobody on this list including you can fix >> >>> Regards >>> Kingsley in Oz. >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:42 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Unnecessary personal invective. From: "John Schroeder" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:35:21 -0700, Rob W M Shipley wrote: > I personally find him to be honest, sincere and generous in his > willingness to discuss and a great contributor to the list. He is > > above all else a gentleman in the way he conducts himself. You are > not, sir. You demean the list and yourself. > Please discuss fact, debate evidence and be polite to other listers or > take your unpleasant invective elsewhere. ============= George, Rob is dead on. PLease heed his sage advice and spare the rest of us who want to learn and rationally discuss. John Schroeder DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:36 AM PST US From: Steve Thomas Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Thomas Hello LarryRobertHelming, Wednesday, October 26, 2005, 5:34:34 AM, you wrote: L> He just needs to open his attitude about it. ??? This thread has been going on for what seems to be an eternity. Bob has not only expressed his openness to examine this topic, but has been forthright with his knowledge of what is known to work. Of all people, I've never met anyone as willing as Bob to be persuaded by facts demonstrated by repeatable experiment. Also, this forum has been an exciting place to be with not only idea exchange, but with knowledge exchange. We have had two (maybe one?) individuals who seem to believe that they are the god-given gift to humanity and only their (his?) opinion has merit. Yet, in neither case has repeatable experimentation been presented to back-up the claim. Criticism is a valuable tool in the exchange of knowledge. I remember the claim many years ago that someone, at the University of Utah I believe, discovered cold fusion. It was revolutionary. It was also not true and critical analysis was unable to support the claim. We have a political climate today that prefers to smear than to argue ideas. A few have sadly brought that same climate here. If they (he?) want to continue to participate with ideas and knowledge, great. Otherwise, please go away. Do not archive -- Best regards, Steve ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:05 AM PST US From: "Frank Stringham" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Unnecessary personal invective. RIGHT ON --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Frank Stringham" Rob and all you good folks out there.............. Right On! As Joe Friday used to say "Fact nothing but the Facts". Ha just gave my age away. As the electrically, technically challenged king of plane building Bobs book, web site, email info, and simple yet detailed explanations are slowly clearing the cob webs from this old retired chemistry school teacher mind. So George if you please tone it down and stay with the facts and if your feeling get hurt remeber this adage HALT...Never make a major decisions or say what is reallky on your mind if you are Hungrey....Angry....Lonely.....or Tired. Ya know I would like to get simple answers to my simplistic questions. Like.....What is the best alternator for the money and why................Help......Once I get Bob's, George's, and all you good folks imput I will then make the decision as to which one I think best suits my application. And yes maybe their will be times that I just go against wisdom and do my own thing. Ya gotta love experimental avaition. Frank @ SGU and SLC......still on the fuse and just can't wait to tackle the canopy????? >From: "Rob W M Shipley" >Reply-To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Unnecessary personal invective. >Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 21:35:21 -0700 > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" > > > >George aka gmcjetpilot contributed the following > >snip >"(Bob that is brilliant, "credentialed crystal ball gazers". Who are you >directing > >that weak back-stab at, in typical condescending verbose style. All those >big words. Are you trying to impress, be clever or cover your insecurity. >Just stop with your petty little crap.) > > >(Bob you ARE the MASTER of anecdotal stories. What the hell. >Lets see some data or facts Bob. How many STORIES are we talking >about. You are full of STORIES. The rest of this document is full of >prejudice > & opinion lacking facts.) > > >(As far as "credentialed" are you jealous? I guess not. We all know you >think education is stupid and engineers useless. "When I was working >on the Piaggio P.180 Avanti..." stories you tell to validate your >creditability, > >Bob is your "credentialed". I am not ashamed of my engineering education >or my professional experience.) > > >(I only asked you if you where an engineer Bob because you implied you >have engineering "credentials" and abilities, which where apparent you >don't have from what you write. This in no way takes away from your >experience as a technician.) > > >HERE IS THE HYPOCRISY, WHAT BOB WROTE ON HIS SITE " > >and also snip > >"......Bob has spewed more useless ignorant comments. " > > >George, > >I am heartily fed up with your petty attacks on Bob Nuckolls. I cannot >imagine why you feel it necessary to descend to this type of personal >diatribe. It is absolutely inappropriate in addressing Bob or anyone else. > >Neither I nor any of the other listers believe Bob has an unimpeachable >inside track on engineering truth and debate and dissent is the path to >greater understanding. For this to be conducted meaningfully emotion and >invective need to be exchanged for data and reason. > >I personally find him to be honest, sincere and generous in his willingness >to discuss and a great contributor to the list. He is above all else a >gentleman in the way he conducts himself. You are not, sir. You demean >the >list and yourself. > >Please discuss fact, debate evidence and be polite to other listers or take >your unpleasant invective elsewhere. > >Rob >Rob W M Shipley >N919RV (res) Fuselage .....still! >La Mesa, CA. (next to San Diego) > >I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. >It has removed 7699 spam emails to date. >Paying users do not have this message in their emails. >Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now! > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:12:26 AM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Feng Shui of Electromagnetism... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" Okay, I was kidding about the Feng Shui... If you are a somewhat-knowledgeable electronics person and less than a guru of Maxwell's equations, you would probably like the book I picked up from Amazon-- Electromagnetics Explained: A Handbook for Wireless/ RF, EMC, and High-Speed Electronics, Part of the EDN Series for Design Engineers (EDN Series for Design Engineers) (Hardcover) by Ron Schmitt This is all about the realm of electronics above DC, and includes everything you would ever want to know about antennas and feedlines and EMC, written in the "Conceptual" style of physics writing, that attempts to illuminate a phenomena and leaves entombing the idea in mathematics to those who need to apply the concepts. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 (508) 764-2072 "Everything you've learned in school as "obvious" becomes less and less obvious as you begin to study the universe. For example, there are no solids in the universe. There's not even a suggestion of a solid. There are no absolute con- tinuums. There are no surfaces. There are no straight lines." - R. Buckminster Fuller ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:30 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Unnecessary personal invective. From: "Chuck Jensen" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" Rob, you might want to correct your attribution to: George aka gmcjetpilot aka Paul Messenger contributed the following Given the writing style (or lack thereof) it's difficult to believe there could be one, or is that two, or is that three, people whose only consistency is to "wallow in the mud." Fair warning to all; writers of this ilk can not be shamed, embarrassed, humiliated or otherwise discourage by relating the personal disgust we may feel in reading their drivel. Here's the scary part--IT ENCOURAGES THEM---much like a serial killer enjoys reading about his murders in the paper. It's their sole, tenuous claim to fame. Chuck Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob W M Shipley Subject: AeroElectric-List: Unnecessary personal invective. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" George aka gmcjetpilot contributed the following snip "(Bob that is brilliant, "credentialed crystal ball gazers". Who are you directing that weak back-stab at, in typical condescending verbose style. All those big words. Are you trying to impress, be clever or cover your insecurity. Just stop with your petty little crap.) (Bob you ARE the MASTER of anecdotal stories. What the hell. Lets see some data or facts Bob. How many STORIES are we talking about. You are full of STORIES. The rest of this document is full of prejudice & opinion lacking facts.) (As far as "credentialed" are you jealous? I guess not. We all know you think education is stupid and engineers useless. "When I was working on the Piaggio P.180 Avanti..." stories you tell to validate your creditability, Bob is your "credentialed". I am not ashamed of my engineering education or my professional experience.) (I only asked you if you where an engineer Bob because you implied you have engineering "credentials" and abilities, which where apparent you don't have from what you write. This in no way takes away from your experience as a technician.) HERE IS THE HYPOCRISY, WHAT BOB WROTE ON HIS SITE " and also snip "......Bob has spewed more useless ignorant comments. " George, I am heartily fed up with your petty attacks on Bob Nuckolls. I cannot imagine why you feel it necessary to descend to this type of personal diatribe. It is absolutely inappropriate in addressing Bob or anyone else. Neither I nor any of the other listers believe Bob has an unimpeachable inside track on engineering truth and debate and dissent is the path to greater understanding. For this to be conducted meaningfully emotion and invective need to be exchanged for data and reason. I personally find him to be honest, sincere and generous in his willingness to discuss and a great contributor to the list. He is above all else a gentleman in the way he conducts himself. You are not, sir. You demean the list and yourself. Please discuss fact, debate evidence and be polite to other listers or take your unpleasant invective elsewhere. Rob Rob W M Shipley N919RV (res) Fuselage .....still! La Mesa, CA. (next to San Diego) I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 7699 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now! ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:40 AM PST US From: Steve Eberhart Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Eberhart Steve Thomas wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Thomas > > Hello LarryRobertHelming, > > Wednesday, October 26, 2005, 5:34:34 AM, you wrote: > > L> He just needs to open his attitude about it. > > ??? This thread has been going on for what seems to be an eternity. > Bob has not only expressed his openness to examine this topic, but > has been forthright with his knowledge of what is known to work. Of > all people, I've never met anyone as willing as Bob to be persuaded > by facts demonstrated by repeatable experiment. Also, this forum has > been an exciting place to be with not only idea exchange, but with > knowledge exchange. [snip] My take on all of this discussion is that Bob just hasn't performed the experiments necessary for him to be comfortable with internally regulated alternators. I don't have a problem with that. IMHO there are going to be some number of I-VR alternators that do pass the muster for use in OBAM aircraft. Hopefully, the short list of suitable I-VR alternators will be identified by the time I need one for my RV-7A. I will have to say it was frustrating having to fly home from a flyin last month behind an externally regulated alternator that had gone TU. The good thing was the plane operated just like Bob said it would with a dead externally regulated alternator. Would have been nice to be able to buy a replacement at Auto Zone. Seems they don't have much call for externally regulated alternators. Steve Eberhart RV-7A, Fuselage kit making its way along the Interstate Highway System from Oregon to my garage in Indiana. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:03 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:53 AM 10/26/2005 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Will N. Stevenson" > > >Bob, > >Amen to what Kingsley said. This person is creating a combative and >dysfunctional atmosphere in a place that is usually full of learning and >camaraderie. It's not good for the List. Bob, please don't let his kind of >behavior continue, huh? Other lists I've been on would have tossed his butt >out by now. It's a good thing to be tolerant of dissenting opinions, but >this guy goes way beyond that with his personal attacks and rants. What you suggest IS tempting. I suppose I could appeal to Matt and have George's e-mail blocked . . . but this would set (at least for me) a terrible president. I have no desire to control anything on this list other than my own ideas, knowledge and the time I choose to spend in sharing them. I'll suggest that if one embraces the simple idea behind the First Amendment, one MUST embrace all the simple-ideas behind our founding father's wisdom and vision. For ANY exceptions to be made as an concession to some individual or group's needs or discomforts is to open the door for EVERY OTHER need or discomfort to be similarly addressed. This is precisely how our present form of government has become a bloated, clearly unconstitutional organization that would bring tears to the eyes of every founding father. It all began with some individual(s) within the body of government making just one small concession to another individual's or group's discomfort or dishonor. The seeds were planted for what we have today. Some folks have suggested that the AeroElectric-List is my List. It WAS created as a convenience to me but I do not claim nor do I desire any form of ownership or control over it. If I get t-boned in an intersection today, I sincerely hope that the List will continue to grow and thrive on the seeds that I and many others have planted here. I would only counsel caution in how future participants of the List choose to deal with "weeds" in the garden of knowledge lest their actions become a president for conditions for which no honorable citizen intends, wants or enjoys. I am reminded of the words expressed by another clear headed citizen of the universe which I quote in part: Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. -----Max Ehrmann's "Desiderata" I hope this illustrates my personal position with respect to George or any other perceived disruptions to the quiet studiousness we may strive for in this class room. If anyone else wishes to appeal to Matt, they're certainly free to do so but I hope that it be done only after a careful sifting of motives and consideration for what will spring forth by the planting of new "seeds". Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:26 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:03 AM 10/26/2005 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" > >Listers, > >As our fleet ventures across this sometimes turbulent sea of learning it >becomes increasingly obvious that some ships are better suited for the >journey. Some are faster, some can carry more cargo, some find the course >increasingly difficult to maintain. We have lost a few ships here and there >along the way. >Each has its' reason to join in the endeavour. For the sake of the few the >many slow the pace with the shared objective of joining forces and >weathering these storms of confusion together. >Sadly it appears that in spite of all the recent efforts to assist, one of >our fleet's ships fate has been decided. fate has struck again!. He has >suffered a fate of unknown cause, possibly he's been torpedoed by the >unknown. He is afire, dead in the water and sinking fast. >All hands on deck! lets all give a hearty three cheers and a heart felt >salute to our sinking comrade. >Throw the wreath on the water. > >The time has come to forge onward. Hear, hear! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:34 AM PST US From: "Eric M. Jones" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Re: Controlling IRE AND Arbalestors (Bob) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" The boys throw rocks At the red-crested cocks But are they on target? A friend of mine noted that 80% acceptance of anything is the death knell for it. Remember Netscape? WordStar? Democrats? DOS, that group Paul McCartney had before "Wings"? There are many reasons for this, but basically I value most the loyal opposition and always have. I hardly ever defend the status quo, and presuming a person has the bona fides to spout on an issue---what the hell! Another friend once stopped my complaints about a person by asking me, "Is he doing the best that he can?" I had to confess that he probably was doing the best that he could. My complaints were pointless. So let's all do the Rodney King Thing and sing Cum-buy-ya. And Bob, read what Emily Post says about disagreeable visitors. I really think the whole rhubarb is a typical limitation of email. It's pretty clear to me that a couple email volleys--then a phone call is in order. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 (508) 764-2072 "I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it." -Clint Eastwood ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 07:34 AM 10/26/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" > > >Written by a true Navy man -- I assume? do not archive > >If the other guy is right, we should want to know more -- but I feel I >already know what I want. It is in the archives already. > >Although Bob has posted that he would remove from his book the chapter on IR >alternator and it's installation, I feel Bob's book should cover the IR >alternator and its installation because of its usefulness to experimental >plane builders. Bob has stated he has no experience with the IR alt. and it >does not meet his performance/control goals. I think Bob is big enough to >take it upon himself and LEARN about it and for the OBAM interests cover it >for those who decide it meets their goals. He has the ability for sure to >fit this, somewhat of a different shaped topic, into his perfectly shaped >world. He just needs to open his attitude about it. How is my attitude closed? Please read and digest only my words as I have keyed them onto your screen . . . and be very skeptical of anyone else's INTERPRETATION or QUOTATION out of context for those words. > Where would we be >today if during the horse and buggy days of yesterday no one would LEARN >about the automobile? We know...... But some did not back then. There >were some who understood the horse and it was proven. The horse had a >history of serving during peace and war. It worked in the fields and helped >build many man made projects/dams/roads/railroads, etc., etc. It met the >goals they had set. Please allow me to make it quite clear concerning my attitudes and goals for incorporation of the internally regulated alternator into aircraft: (1) I stipulate that the modern, IR alternators of ANY brand are exceedingly superior products in performance, price and reliability to the vast majority of alternators presently flying on the majority of today's certified light aircraft. (2) I have customers who are interested in incorporating these products into their projects under the same design goals as all generators and alternators since day-one. I.e., to allow a pilot to exercise absolute, quiet, and non-hazardous control over this source of power and with a minimum regard to cautions, prohibitions or concerns. (3) There are folks who suggest that comforts and convenience of control and independent management of an OV condition are relegated to a past age and no longer relevant or useful. I have no argument with those who embrace those views as long as it's done with a clear understanding of the differences and acceptance of potential consequences. One must also accept a new operating paradigm for the light aircraft electrical system inconsistent with (2). (4) I have a project under way to accomplish (2) . . . the only reason for pulling the IR alternator integration data from the 'Connection is that it worked only under a list of cautions, prohibitions and concerns. It will go back into the book when the goal is achieved and blessed by others here on the List. They will sift though all the simple-ideas to be published in support of the design and pronounced them understandable and compelling in their execution. >I appreciate all Bob has done for the OBAM community. I do feel however >that at times he does go a bit over the limit in criticizing others, like >Vans Aircraft for example, because they support builders using IR >alternators and they continue to advocate use of the circuit breaker rather >than bus architecture. Forgive me sir, your words do not offer me a clear image of your thinking. Can you elaborate on the difference between "circuit breaker" versus "bus" architecture? I have accurately described some opinions offered by Van's and others as ignorant . . . (or if you find this word offensive, exceedingly lacking in knowledge) of the ramifications of their recommendations. It's unfortunate that many followers of these new paradigms accept the ideas based on the name-brand of those who offer the capable airframe design and power plant integration organization but they're clearly not into the advancement of knowledge and understanding in electrical systems design. A simple examination of their electrical system kit is a profound demonstration of this fact. It's 1960' architecture and philosophy with a simplistic substitution of a modern alternator for an antique generator. I've spoken with Van at numerous aviation gatherings and inquired as to his vision for how far out to the horizon his products should be flown. My sense was that he'd rather nobody ever launched into IFR and that the electrical system served the same purpose as it did in the C-140A . . . run some lights and crank the engine. My interpretation of his remarks is re-enforced by the manner in which he suggests systems be installed in his products. A battery, an engine driven energy source and a vacuum pump. Now, if Van cares to join the List an disabuse me of my perceptions, I'm sure we'd all be grateful and attentive. I do not propose to argue with Van's business model. Obviously, in spite of any perceived or real shortcomings, it's profoundly successful. But I have customers. You folks here on the List who want explore more options and hopefully do it from a position of understanding. It's my job as system designer and integrator to offer options. It's my duty as teacher to offer simple-ideas that support those options such that anyone who chooses may make their own decisions with confidence. >I have not heard of Vans issuing advice directories >on the IR alternators because of problems they are getting back from the >field. Vans sells thousands of planes and some percentage of those have the >IR alternator. It would be interesting to know from the Vans network what >the break down is and what the experience has been. I am sure no one knows >all these answers. But the results of a survey would sure be nice to know. This isn't about Van's. It's not about Niagara Airparts. It's not about NiponDenso or Mitsubishi alternators. It's not about George or Paul. It's about YOU sir. What do YOU want? What are YOUR goals. How can we here on the list help YOU select from a clear list of options and install them on YOUR airplane for operation with understanding and confidence in having done a good thing? If you're wanting someone tell you what to do, then you're well advised to install Van's kit as offered with the knowledge that you will fare no worse than thousands of Van's other customers . . . which is NOT a scary number. When I climb into a rented spam can, I'm very aware of the shortcomings in the electrical system and they don't bother me in the least. I have Plan-B in my flight bag to deal with anything that system may toss at me. But as soon as you make a single change to that system in terms of parts selection or architecture, who can you depend on for support in understanding the value or risks of your proposed changes? I submit that it will NOT be Van's Aircraft, Niagara Airparts, or the engineers at ND. Your best source of assistance is right here on the List where folks with knowledge of such things and goals similar to yours are willing to spend their $time$ on your behalf. I hope this re-focus of goals and tools for achieving them is useful to you. Let us not be distracted by brand recognition or elevation of individuals to technical sainthood. It's the understanding of ideas that matters. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:35 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Controlling IR ND Alternators (Bob) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan At 08:16 AM 10/26/2005, you wrote: > What you suggest IS tempting. I suppose I could appeal to > Matt and have George's e-mail blocked . . . but this would > set (at least for me) a terrible president. I most respectfully disagree with your position. The longest lived, most useful, and most civil lists I have belonged to have all been moderated, some more than others. Most non-moderated lists I have been a part of have ultimately degenerated to the lowest common denominator as the civil professionals that drove the information content departed under the onslaught of the loud and uneducated. Your list is most definitely moderated, which you do by your almost saintly devotion to calm and reasonable discourse. Once you leave this list, it will, without additional moderation, most probably be destroyed by the few who currently pester it with their invective. Your devotion to the First Amendment is admirable, but I believe you fall victim to your own logic: "For ANY exceptions to be made as an concession to some individual or group's needs or discomforts is to open the door for EVERY OTHER need or discomfort to be similarly addressed." This applies to the First Amendment abuser as well. For us to turn this list, and every other forum, over to the boorish few simply because they should be heard gives too much power over those of us who would use these forums for their intended purpose. The extremity of your logic would dictate that I suffer my four and eight year old's howling and thumping like cinematic Indians whilst I try to entertain guests in my living room. I don't, not because their behavior is wrong, but because it is misplaced. I send them outside. You have very clearly set the terms of the engagement. Those who would seek to operate otherwise have every opportunity to start their own forums operating under their rules, or lack thereof. I will not ask you to directly moderate this forum, as I think you do an excellent job using your own methods. I guess this list just has a bad IR alternator that occasionally gets out of control, spraying noise throughout the system. Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:54 AM PST US From: Guy Buchanan Subject: AeroElectric-List: Apologies --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan Sorry all. That last reply was meant for Bob alone. It's just too easy to hit the reply button. Guy Buchanan K-IV 1200 / 582 / 99.9% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:32:09 PM PST US From: "Will N. Stevenson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Apology as Well --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Will N. Stevenson" Bob, Fair enough. The Desiderata quote is truly one to live by, beautiful quote. Always striving to be a full grownup :), 'speaking the truth quietly and clearly' is a good way to go about it. As you say, forbearance will hopefully, eventually pay off. I'm new to the list and perhaps should have kept my mouth shut. Apologies to the list--with one notable exception--if I have upset anybody. I brought it up because I have seen other lists ruined and scattered to the winds by the acceptance of dysfunctional communication, whether based in fact and expounded by experts, or otherwise. Will > I am reminded of the words expressed by another clear > headed citizen of the universe which I quote in part: > > Speak your truth quietly and clearly; > and listen to others, even the dull and > the ignorant; they too have their story. > > Avoid loud and aggressive persons, > they are vexations to the spirit. > If you compare yourself with others, > you may become vain and bitter; > for always there will be greater and > lesser persons than yourself. > > -----Max Ehrmann's "Desiderata" > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:59 PM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0000 1.0000 -4.4912 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" Fellow trons..... I'm getting started on my firewall forward wiring for my VM1000. I have four EGT and CHT wiring sets that need to pass through the firewall on their journey to the DPU. I would like to be able to disconnect them at the firewall with a canon-plug type connector for ease of maintenance and firewall integrity reasons. A note to Vision Microsystems got me the response that it can be done but I need to use special thermocouple extension grade pins due to an additional thermocouple junction at the firewall. Please provide me with some education on this - my common sense tells me that it is an electrical signal once it leaves the thermocouple and that electricity is not affected by a firewall - unless maybe it is on fire.......there is a connector at the DPU - wouldn't that connector cause the same problem? I do take stock in their response - but need to understand the mechanics/physics etc. Maybe it is not worth the trouble to wire a disconnect at this point and I should run the wiring direct from the thermocouple to the DPU. Ralph Capen RV6AQB N822AR N06 90% 90% ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:25:31 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Unnecessary personal invective. From: "Chuck Jensen" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" I earlier wrote that I thought George/gmcjetpilot/Paul Messinger were one and the same. Thanks to information from an 'in the know' individual, I understand that they are NOT the same person...coasts apart, actually. So, for that, I apologize. The apology does not extend to the effect their (how ever many people that may be) writings have on us po' folks and our tenuous grip on sanity. Chuck Do Not Archive Rob, you might want to correct your attribution to: George aka gmcjetpilot aka Paul Messenger contributed the following Given the writing style (or lack thereof) it's difficult to believe there could be one, or is that two, or is that three, people whose only consistency is to "wallow in the mud." Fair warning to all; writers of this ilk can not be shamed, embarrassed, humiliated or otherwise discourage by relating the personal disgust we may feel in reading their drivel. Here's the scary part--IT ENCOURAGES THEM---much like a serial killer enjoys reading about his murders in the paper. It's their sole, tenuous claim to fame. Chuck Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:25 PM PST US SPAM: If the email is for spam, please report to abuse@dnsExit.com -By mail relay service at: http://www.dnsExit.com/Direct.sv?cmd=mailRelay Accounts will be suspended immediately if found spamming. Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" If it's a digital signal (it's not) connectors won't effect it much. If it's analog using voltage or similar fluctuations (it is) connectors will most certainly effect it. They can take this into account with special materials (connectors) or programming. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Wing bottom skins Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0000 1.0000 -4.4912 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" --> Fellow trons..... I'm getting started on my firewall forward wiring for my VM1000. I have four EGT and CHT wiring sets that need to pass through the firewall on their journey to the DPU. I would like to be able to disconnect them at the firewall with a canon-plug type connector for ease of maintenance and firewall integrity reasons. A note to Vision Microsystems got me the response that it can be done but I need to use special thermocouple extension grade pins due to an additional thermocouple junction at the firewall. Please provide me with some education on this - my common sense tells me that it is an electrical signal once it leaves the thermocouple and that electricity is not affected by a firewall - unless maybe it is on fire.......there is a connector at the DPU - wouldn't that connector cause the same problem? I do take stock in their response - but need to understand the mechanics/physics etc. Maybe it is not worth the trouble to wire a disconnect at this point and I should run the wiring direct from the thermocouple to the DPU. Ralph Capen RV6AQB N822AR N06 90% 90% ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:31:58 PM PST US From: "Rodney Dunham" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: IGNORE --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" Matte, Say there was a particular poster who's posts were offensive to me. Say I wanted to block that particular poster's e-mails. Say I wanted to continue reading the rest of the e-mails on this list. Is there a way to make that happen??? Rodney in Tennessee ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:50 PM PST US SPAM: If the email is for spam, please report to abuse@dnsExit.com -By mail relay service at: http://www.dnsExit.com/Direct.sv?cmd=mailRelay Accounts will be suspended immediately if found spamming. Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: *Delete me now* Unnecessary personal invective. From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Incidentally, I have verifiable footage of the grassy knoll for sale to any other conspiracy theorists out there. As long as I'm taking a moment to be a smart a$$, could those of you that feel it necessary to either attack others or respond to the attacks with the same level of credulity, clearly add something to the subject line so I can add a kill filter to my email program and give my delete key a rest. Maybe something like... Subject: *soapbox* My ideas are better than everyone else and here is why Or Subject: *delete me now* Why I think you are full of cr@p Come one guys, this monthly tirade is really getting annoying. I wish I had that kind of free time. Argue your points, fine, but keep the attacks in personal emails, not on the list. It's always the vocal minority that feel it necessary to make no point in the interest of the group. Bob is a big boy, if he doesn't feel it necessary to respond, I'm sure he doesn't need you to do it for him. Geez DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Jensen Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Unnecessary personal invective. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" --> I earlier wrote that I thought George/gmcjetpilot/Paul Messinger were one and the same. Thanks to information from an 'in the know' individual, I understand that they are NOT the same person...coasts apart, actually. So, for that, I apologize. The apology does not extend to the effect their (how ever many people that may be) writings have on us po' folks and our tenuous grip on sanity. Chuck Do Not Archive Rob, you might want to correct your attribution to: George aka gmcjetpilot aka Paul Messenger contributed the following Given the writing style (or lack thereof) it's difficult to believe there could be one, or is that two, or is that three, people whose only consistency is to "wallow in the mud." Fair warning to all; writers of this ilk can not be shamed, embarrassed, humiliated or otherwise discourage by relating the personal disgust we may feel in reading their drivel. Here's the scary part--IT ENCOURAGES THEM---much like a serial killer enjoys reading about his murders in the paper. It's their sole, tenuous claim to fame. Chuck Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:32 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: IGNORE From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" I'm not Matte (Dralle), But it is easy to set up filters in most email readers. The filters that I have played with are accessed by clicking on tools-->message_filters. For your case, you want the filter to pick messages which have a "sender" which "contains" "xxxx" where "xxxx" is the name of the user whose messages you don't like. Decent emailers (like mozilla/thunderbird) have a 'junk' button you can click on that the emailer uses to learn what kinds of messages you think are junk. Once you start classifying certain messages as junk, it puts suspect messages in the junk folder. Until it's totally tuned-in, you need to periodically go look at the messages that have been junked, and un-junk them so that the emailer can learn better what you want. I don't think Mr Dralle is going to be able to do much for you from the standpoint of filtering what get's sent out from the list, as long as the messages don't otherwise violate the published rules. Hope that helps, Matt (Prather)- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" > > > Matte, > > Say there was a particular poster who's posts were offensive to me. > > Say I wanted to block that particular poster's e-mails. > > Say I wanted to continue reading the rest of the e-mails on this list. > > Is there a way to make that happen??? > > Rodney in Tennessee > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:21 PM PST US From: Harley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: IGNORE --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Harley And with Mozilla's Thunderbird, you can right click on any address in the heading, choose "create filter from message" and it automatically sets up the filter...all you need to do is tell it what to do with it (file it, junk it , trash it, etc.) Don't know if other email programs have a similar feature...I only use Thunderbird.... Harley Matt Prather wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" > > >I'm not Matte (Dralle), > >But it is easy to set up filters in most email readers. The filters that >I have played with are accessed by clicking on tools-->message_filters. >For your case, you want the filter to pick messages which have a "sender" >which "contains" "xxxx" where "xxxx" is the name of the user whose >messages you don't like. > >Decent emailers (like mozilla/thunderbird) have a 'junk' button you can >click on that the emailer uses to learn what kinds of messages you think >are junk. Once you start classifying certain messages as junk, it puts >suspect messages in the junk folder. Until it's totally tuned-in, you >need to periodically go look at the messages that have been junked, and >un-junk them so that the emailer can learn better what you want. > >I don't think Mr Dralle is going to be able to do much for you from the >standpoint of filtering what get's sent out from the list, as long as the >messages don't otherwise violate the published rules. > > >Hope that helps, > >Matt (Prather)- > > > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" >> >> >>Matte, >> >>Say there was a particular poster who's posts were offensive to me. >> >>Say I wanted to block that particular poster's e-mails. >> >>Say I wanted to continue reading the rest of the e-mails on this list. >> >>Is there a way to make that happen??? >> >>Rodney in Tennessee >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:20:15 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations From: "Dan Beadle" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" Thermocouples work because two different metals are in contact at the head or EGT - they sense temperature as a voltage generator. When you splice the wire, you introduce new "thermocouples" of unknown value at each spice. When you change from one metal to another (copper to tin to gold to tin to copper, for example), you get a tiny voltage that varies with temperature. Some engine instruments calibrate out all the spurious voltages by fitting the theoretical thermocouple curve to the actual output at a known voltage. The assumption is that all of the spurious voltages are fixed (they are NOT, they vary with temp, like cabin temp and OAT - but are small compared to EGT voltages swings) Bob has a pretty good section about this in his book. I have some of the details from some work I do for one of the engine analyzer manufactures. Bottom line - avoid splices wherever possible. Follow the engine monitor manufacture guidelines about how to field calibrate (with cold engine, EGT should read the same as OAT, assuming time for cylinder mass to reach the same temp as ambient) Dan -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV Builder (Michael Sausen) Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" If it's a digital signal (it's not) connectors won't effect it much. If it's analog using voltage or similar fluctuations (it is) connectors will most certainly effect it. They can take this into account with special materials (connectors) or programming. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Wing bottom skins Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0000 1.0000 -4.4912 --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" --> Fellow trons..... I'm getting started on my firewall forward wiring for my VM1000. I have four EGT and CHT wiring sets that need to pass through the firewall on their journey to the DPU. I would like to be able to disconnect them at the firewall with a canon-plug type connector for ease of maintenance and firewall integrity reasons. A note to Vision Microsystems got me the response that it can be done but I need to use special thermocouple extension grade pins due to an additional thermocouple junction at the firewall. Please provide me with some education on this - my common sense tells me that it is an electrical signal once it leaves the thermocouple and that electricity is not affected by a firewall - unless maybe it is on fire.......there is a connector at the DPU - wouldn't that connector cause the same problem? I do take stock in their response - but need to understand the mechanics/physics etc. Maybe it is not worth the trouble to wire a disconnect at this point and I should run the wiring direct from the thermocouple to the DPU. Ralph Capen RV6AQB N822AR N06 90% 90% ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:37:12 PM PST US From: D Wysong Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: D Wysong Ralph - Here's a PDF from Omega that discusses thermocouple wiring voodoo: http://www.omega.com/temperature/Z/pdf/z021-032.pdf The document is geared towards a lab setting so the term "error" warrants a grain of salt... as in "thou shalt keep the conductors the same all the way to your instrument to avoid errors created by additional thermocouple (dissimilar metal) junctions." There WILL be errors... but I see temperatures listed to the nearest 0.01 degree in the document so even "HUGE ERRORS" by these standards are probably acceptable for your airborne laboratory! As a sanity check you could test it (let the data speak for itself). Hook one channel up with a thermocouple directly and another up using a thermocouple soldered to a pigtail of copper wire. Stick both thermocouples in a mug of hot chocolate or cold beer or whatever and see how much the Vision thinks the channels differ. D ------- Ralph E. Capen wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" > > Fellow trons..... > > I'm getting started on my firewall forward wiring for my VM1000. I have four EGT and CHT wiring sets that need to pass through the firewall on their journey to the DPU. > > I would like to be able to disconnect them at the firewall with a canon-plug type connector for ease of maintenance and firewall integrity reasons. > > A note to Vision Microsystems got me the response that it can be done but I need to use special thermocouple extension grade pins due to an additional thermocouple junction at the firewall. > > Please provide me with some education on this - my common sense tells me that it is an electrical signal once it leaves the thermocouple and that electricity is not affected by a firewall - unless maybe it is on fire.......there is a connector at the DPU - wouldn't that connector cause the same problem? > > I do take stock in their response - but need to understand the mechanics/physics etc. > > Maybe it is not worth the trouble to wire a disconnect at this point and I should run the wiring direct from the thermocouple to the DPU. > > Ralph Capen > RV6AQB N822AR N06 90% 90% > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:00 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Unnecessary personal invective. RIGHT ON From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" I'll just make one comment on this topic: What follows is a direct quote from the matronics list guidelines (next to last item): " - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing." I believe this directly applies to some of the messages that prompted this topic. Just a reminder to Read The Manual (and follow its directions). Regards, Matt- ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:23 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: IGNORE --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 05:28 PM 10/26/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" > > >Matte, > >Say there was a particular poster who's posts were offensive to me. > >Say I wanted to block that particular poster's e-mails. > >Say I wanted to continue reading the rest of the e-mails on this list. > >Is there a way to make that happen??? > >Rodney in Tennessee http://www.mailwasher.net/ works good, lasts a long time and is free Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:33 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Apology as Well --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:28 PM 10/26/2005 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Will N. Stevenson" > > >Bob, > >Fair enough. The Desiderata quote is truly one to live by, beautiful quote. >Always striving to be a full grownup :), 'speaking the truth quietly and >clearly' is a good way to go about it. As you say, forbearance will >hopefully, eventually pay off. I'm new to the list and perhaps should have >kept my mouth shut. Apologies to the list--with one notable exception--if I >have upset anybody. I brought it up because I have seen other lists ruined >and scattered to the winds by the acceptance of dysfunctional communication, >whether based in fact and expounded by experts, or otherwise. Not at all my friend. The only reason I can justify responses to tirades is because many (perhaps even yourself to some degree) have perceived my words through the filter of others with agendas and/or misunderstanding of what I've offered. These misconceptions can only be countered by consistent and persistent presentation of the real story. The last time I looked, there were over 1300 subscribers to the AeroElectric List. If we keep their presence in mind, it's these lurkers who will insure the List's longevity. If we concentrate on serving the curiosity and willingness of these folks to learn, then dozens of rabble rousers cannot and will not put this List in danger. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:12 PM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Great Words, Bob --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Apology as Well > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > > At 12:28 PM 10/26/2005 -0700, you wrote: > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Will N. Stevenson" >> >> >>Bob, >> >>Fair enough. The Desiderata quote is truly one to live by, beautiful >>quote. >>Always striving to be a full grownup :), 'speaking the truth quietly and >>clearly' is a good way to go about it. As you say, forbearance will >>hopefully, eventually pay off. I'm new to the list and perhaps should >>have >>kept my mouth shut. Apologies to the list--with one notable exception--if >>I >>have upset anybody. I brought it up because I have seen other lists >>ruined >>and scattered to the winds by the acceptance of dysfunctional >>communication, >>whether based in fact and expounded by experts, or otherwise. > > Not at all my friend. The only reason I can justify responses to > tirades is because many (perhaps even yourself to some degree) > have perceived my words through the filter of others with > agendas and/or misunderstanding of what I've offered. These > misconceptions can only be countered by consistent and persistent > presentation of the real story. > > The last time I looked, there were over 1300 subscribers to > the AeroElectric List. If we keep their presence in mind, > it's these lurkers who will insure the List's longevity. If > we concentrate on serving the curiosity and willingness of > these folks to learn, then dozens of rabble rousers cannot > and will not put this List in danger. > > Bob . . . > > Great words, Bob. I've been on this list since it was created and still subscribe to it even though my aircraft electrical design was long ago implemented - based I might add on many/most of your suggestions. I have flown my all electric aircraft since 1998 without a single electrical problem. The only thing I can recall having taking exception to in your recommendations was the use of Circuit Breakers (personal preference) vs Fuses for critical systems. So why am I still a subscriber (more a lurker now) after all these years - simply because I still find new understanding and knowledge from the discussions on this list. As we know, there will always be some, who for whatever rationale, will bring their emotions into what should be a factual discourse. Some will react (also emotionally) to such folks. But this is just minor noise in the strong signal set by yourself and others on the list. I can not foresee any danger of this list folding due to such causes - too much value, to useful, to too many for that to happen. Sincerely Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:36:43 PM PST US From: Michael Duran Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Unnecessary personal invective. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Michael Duran You know, this list is really nuts sometimes. Like an old man's smoking club with road rage. Michael Duran ================== George aka gmcjetpilot contributed the following snip "(Bob that is brilliant, "credentialed crystal ball gazers". Who are you directing that weak back-stab at, in typical condescending verbose style. All those big words. Are you trying to impress, be clever or cover your insecurity. Just stop with your petty little crap.) ================== ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:02 PM PST US From: Richard Riley Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Unnecessary personal invective. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Richard Riley At 01:23 PM 10/26/05, Chuck Jensen wrote: >I earlier wrote that I thought George/gmcjetpilot/Paul Messinger were >one and the same. Thanks to information from an 'in the know' >individual, I understand that they are NOT the same person...coasts >apart, actually. Don't feel bad, I'd made the same assumption. do not archive -- ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:58:43 PM PST US From: "Jim Baker" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Unnecessary personal invective. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" > Fair warning to all; > writers of this ilk can not be shamed, embarrassed, humiliated or > otherwise discourage by relating the personal disgust we may feel in > reading their drivel. Here's the scary part--IT ENCOURAGES > THEM Precicely why he has earned a spot in my delete mail filters. He'll never darken my electrons again...... Jim Baker 580.788.2779 '71 SV, 492TC Elmore City, OK ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:55 PM PST US From: "Jim Baker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: IGNORE --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" > And with Mozilla's Thunderbird, you can right click on any address in > the heading, choose "create filter from message" and it automatically > sets up the filter...all you need to do is tell it what to do with it > (file it, junk it , trash it, etc.) > > Don't know if other email programs have a similar feature...I only use > Thunderbird.... Pegasus email program. Free for individual use. Filters mail to different folders, comes with a spam detection and content control list that kills about 99% that I get, you can add and build your own content control lists, build your own filter rules...and just a boat load more. Plus, it's not nearly anywhere near as vulnerable to virus and service attacks as, say, Outlook, because most evil-doers count on the default use of Outlook as a way into your system. http://www.pmail.com/ Jim Baker 580.788.2779 '71 SV, 492TC Elmore City, OK ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:18 PM PST US From: AI Nut Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: AI Nut Every connection/joint of a dissimilar material will create yet another "cold junction." The temps at each cold junction will alter, sometimes significantly, the signal that arrives at the destination. No amount of numerical fudging can correct this because the variation are not guaranteed to be repeatable across the different environments. Stick with what is easy. Use the same materials for your penetration joint, or run the wire through. I'm running the wires through my firewall, using a penetration that is already there. I, too, am using 4 EGT's and 4 CHT's. It does matter. David M. RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" > > If it's a digital signal (it's not) connectors won't effect it much. If it's analog using voltage or similar fluctuations (it is) connectors will most certainly effect it. They can take this into account with special materials (connectors) or programming. > >Michael Sausen >-10 #352 Wing bottom skins >Do not archive > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ralph E. Capen >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com; rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0000 1.0000 -4.4912 > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" >--> > >Fellow trons..... > >I'm getting started on my firewall forward wiring for my VM1000. I have four EGT and CHT wiring sets that need to pass through the firewall on their journey to the DPU. > >I would like to be able to disconnect them at the firewall with a canon-plug type connector for ease of maintenance and firewall integrity reasons. > >A note to Vision Microsystems got me the response that it can be done but I need to use special thermocouple extension grade pins due to an additional thermocouple junction at the firewall. > >Please provide me with some education on this - my common sense tells me that it is an electrical signal once it leaves the thermocouple and that electricity is not affected by a firewall - unless maybe it is on fire.......there is a connector at the DPU - wouldn't that connector cause the same problem? > >I do take stock in their response - but need to understand the mechanics/physics etc. > >Maybe it is not worth the trouble to wire a disconnect at this point and I should run the wiring direct from the thermocouple to the DPU. > >Ralph Capen >RV6AQB N822AR N06 90% 90% > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:20 PM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" I have posted at least two discussions about thermocouple wire and how it works - look at the archives. That said, here is the short story. Thermocouples work due to the Seebeck effect. That is, if you connect two wires made of dissimilar metals they will generate a voltage at the junction that is proportional to the temperature at the junction (and dependent on the types of metals). It is important to remember that it is ANY junction of dissimilar metals. This includes the junctions where the thermocouples are connected to whatever you are using to measure the temperature. The designers of these instruments always provide some way (internal to the instrument) of compensating for the voltage generated at this junction so the resultant temperature readout is that at the other end of the thermocouple wires. So... If we interpose another set of junctions in a length of thermocouple wire - such as a connector - that could cause problems or maybe not. I say could for two reasons. First, if the temperature at each additional junction is the same then the voltages generated will all cancel and you will still get the same result on the readout instrument as you would without the additional junctions. This is very likely the case if you pass the thermocouple wires through a hole in the firewall (using the techniques that Bob recommends for providing a fire resistant pass through) and use a connector wholly within the engine compartment since both ends of the connector will be in close proximity and at essentially the same temperature. If you use a "barrier" connector with one side mounted on the firewall and the other in the engine compartment, the situation is a little worse since the two sides are obviously at different temperatures. On the other hand if you use some sort of heat insulation around one or both sides of the connector, since the pins are intimately connected (both electrically and thermally), they are likely to be very close in temperature and will cause a relatively small error. Second, you are trying to measure relatively high temperatures and a small temperature difference error generated by the connector may be irrelevant to your actual usage. If you are using the EGT for leaning, the actual temperature is only vaguely important - the relative peaks are what you will look for. An error of 10 or 20 degrees would be immaterial in this case. With the CHT the numbers are lower but the errors are probably still not detrimental to your usage. The reason Vision Microsystems suggest what they do is that they have no control how or where you connect things and using the special pins eliminates any problems - since they are the same material as the thermocouple wire there is effectively no junction at the connector. Bottom line: If you are careful in what you do, you can use any connector you want with minimal if any errors. If you are not careful and end up with the two sides of the connector at significantly different temperatures you will get an error that is approximately the difference between the temperatures on the two sides of the connector. Dick Tasker Ralph E. Capen wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" > >Fellow trons..... > >I'm getting started on my firewall forward wiring for my VM1000. I have four EGT and CHT wiring sets that need to pass through the firewall on their journey to the DPU. > >I would like to be able to disconnect them at the firewall with a canon-plug type connector for ease of maintenance and firewall integrity reasons. > >A note to Vision Microsystems got me the response that it can be done but I need to use special thermocouple extension grade pins due to an additional thermocouple junction at the firewall. > >Please provide me with some education on this - my common sense tells me that it is an electrical signal once it leaves the thermocouple and that electricity is not affected by a firewall - unless maybe it is on fire.......there is a connector at the DPU - wouldn't that connector cause the same problem? > >I do take stock in their response - but need to understand the mechanics/physics etc. > >Maybe it is not worth the trouble to wire a disconnect at this point and I should run the wiring direct from the thermocouple to the DPU. > >Ralph Capen >RV6AQB N822AR N06 90% 90% > > > > -- ---- Please Note: No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however, that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced. ---- ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:30 PM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: IGNORE, personal invictive, etc... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" Haven't any of you heard of DO NOT ARCHIVE ? It is bad enough that we all have to wade through this the first time, but we are all leaving the whole sordid mess for everyone who tries to search through the archives. Look at the number of useless hits they will receive for "IR alternator". No wonder so many people ask the same questions over and over... My $0.0002 Dick Tasker ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:45 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 03:52 PM 10/26/2005 -0400, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" > > >Fellow trons..... > >I'm getting started on my firewall forward wiring for my VM1000. I have >four EGT and CHT wiring sets that need to pass through the firewall on >their journey to the DPU. > >I would like to be able to disconnect them at the firewall with a >canon-plug type connector for ease of maintenance and firewall integrity >reasons. > >A note to Vision Microsystems got me the response that it can be done but >I need to use special thermocouple extension grade pins due to an >additional thermocouple junction at the firewall. > >Please provide me with some education on this - my common sense tells me >that it is an electrical signal once it leaves the thermocouple and that >electricity is not affected by a firewall - unless maybe it is on >fire.......there is a connector at the DPU - wouldn't that connector cause >the same problem? > >I do take stock in their response - but need to understand the >mechanics/physics etc. > >Maybe it is not worth the trouble to wire a disconnect at this point and I >should run the wiring direct from the thermocouple to the DPU. As long as your T/C wires are 20 or 22AWG, you can run them through ordinary D-sub connectors . . . solid machined pins preferred. While the pins for a D-sub are NOT identical to the thermocouple wires being joined, they insert a pair of equal but opposing parasitic thermocouples into both leadwires. The parasitic thermocouples cancel each other out because they are in such close proximity to each other and have a common local temperature. I've been doing this for many years in instrumentation systems at RAC and elsewhere and could detect no significant errors for having used this technique. Now, consider the fact that a D-sub connector is not a firewall proven device so you'll want to bring your T/C bundle through a more conventional firewall penetration (See: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Firewall_Penetration/firewall.html and then use a pair of cable connections under the cowl to effect separation of of the t/c bundle forward of the firewall. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:19 PM PST US From: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" Being one of those people that spends most of his time outside the box asking "why", my question is this: Why do we rely on such a weird and delicate method of measuring temperature? Isn't there a device that will produce a linear voltage/temperature output that can be run through whatever wiring and whatever connectors we wish to use, and doesn't rely on such an error-prone mechanism for measurement of such critical data? Dave Morris At 09:49 PM 10/26/2005, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" > > >I have posted at least two discussions about thermocouple wire and how >it works - look at the archives. > >That said, here is the short story. Thermocouples work due to the >Seebeck effect. That is, if you connect two wires made of dissimilar >metals they will generate a voltage at the junction that is proportional >to the temperature at the junction (and dependent on the types of ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:08 PM PST US From: "Jim Baker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Baker" > While the pins for a D-sub are NOT identical to the > thermocouple wires being joined, they insert a pair of equal but > opposing parasitic thermocouples into both leadwires. The > parasitic thermocouples cancel each other out because they are in > such close proximity to each other and have a common local > temperature. I'd think, perhaps incorrectly, that the object of the EGT and CHT would be to establish relative readings and not absoulute readings. I don't really care about a ten degree difference from a precise measurement as long as I know, from experience, what the readings are relative to various operating regimes. As an example, I have a Grand Rapids EIS on a two stroke that is junctioned with .092 Molex connectors with the proper K and J type cable on either side of the junction. The Grand Rapids folks say the EIS will temperature compensate the cold junction(s) (I think???) so who really knows what the precise temp is....I don't. All I'm looking for is a baseline and then trends after that. Jim Baker 580.788.2779 '71 SV, 492TC Elmore City, OK ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:59 PM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Thermocouple wiring firewall pentrations --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" Mainly because they are reliable, small and really cheap compared to other ways to measure the temperatures we are interested in. Additionally, remember that we are sticking some of these directly into the hot exhaust stream. There isn't much else that will measure this temperature and survive for long yet be affordable. On the other hand, as long as you don't mind spending a couple hundred dollars each, I can get you some really nice, robust sensors that don't care what you use to connect between the sensor and your readout nor how far it is to the readout :-) . Also, compared to some of the industrial stuff I have worked with and designed for, our accuracy requirements are really loose. As some of the other posters have mentioned, we actually don't care exactly what the EGT temperatures are (within a pretty wide tolerance). We really only need a comparative reading between the four or six exhaust ports. The actual CHTs are a little more interesting, but again, the accuracies we need are not that critical or hard to get - even with the "delicate method" of using thermocouples. Dick Tasker Dave Morris "BigD" wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" > >Being one of those people that spends most of his time outside the box >asking "why", my question is this: Why do we rely on such a weird and >delicate method of measuring temperature? Isn't there a device that will >produce a linear voltage/temperature output that can be run through >whatever wiring and whatever connectors we wish to use, and doesn't rely on >such an error-prone mechanism for measurement of such critical data? > >Dave Morris >