Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:46 AM - Re: Electronic Ignition Problem (Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR)
2. 05:48 AM - Re: ElectroAir! (Ron Brown)
3. 06:21 AM - Re: Re: ElectroAir! (Denis Walsh)
4. 06:30 AM - Re: Coax crimper (Steve Ruse)
5. 06:51 AM - Re: Re: Electronic Ignition Problem (Wayne Sweet)
6. 07:27 AM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Mark R Steitle)
7. 08:15 AM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
8. 08:29 AM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Mark R. Supinski)
9. 08:45 AM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Mark R Steitle)
10. 09:20 AM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Mark R. Supinski)
11. 09:29 AM - Charging two batteries (Ted D. Hultzapple)
12. 09:32 AM - Re E-bus alternate feed (pfsiegel)
13. 09:35 AM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Matt Prather)
14. 09:43 AM - com ant (Jim Stone)
15. 09:47 AM - Re: Re: ElectroAir! (Jim Stone)
16. 09:59 AM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
17. 10:13 AM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Mark R. Supinski)
18. 11:05 AM - Re: Charging two batteries (Steve Ruse)
19. 11:10 AM - Re: Re E-bus alternate feed (Sean Stephens)
20. 01:49 PM - Re: Charging two batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 02:18 PM - Re: Charging two batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
22. 02:19 PM - Re: com ant (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
23. 02:22 PM - Re: Re E-bus alternate feed (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
24. 02:26 PM - Re: Ammeter shunt wiring, Part II (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
25. 02:39 PM - Re: Charging two batteries (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
26. 03:09 PM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Robert Dufresne)
27. 03:30 PM - shielded wire installation (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com)
28. 07:55 PM - Re: Charging two batteries (Joe Dubner)
29. 11:22 PM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Phil White)
Message 1
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Subject: | RE: Electronic Ignition Problem |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" <Fred.Stucklen@UTCFuelCells.com>
Mike,
Your point is quite valid, but I've physically checked the battery and
ignition ground connections multiple times.. I'll run a test this weekend
and see what kind of voltage drop occurs between the battery ground lead,
and the ignition ground lead (with a digital storage scope) during the
engine start sequence.. I don't expect to see more than a few Millivolts.
I'm wondering if the firewall ground feed thru bolt, which carries the
starter current, isn't the problem. The Aux battery (that powers just the
ignitions) is also connected to this feed thru bolt. It's the common ground
to the firewall for the ignition modules. If there is a voltage drop in this
5/16 X 24 brass bolt, it would certainly explain the problem. Not likely,
but certainly worth exploring.
It might also be a better idea to ground the Aux battery to another
firewall point..... We'll see this weekend...
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N926RV
Time: 08:53:28 AM PST US From: "Mike" <mlas@cox.net> Subject: Electronic
Ignition Problem
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike" <mlas@cox.net>
Fred,
I have the Plasma III electronic ignition in my airplane, but it
sounds
to me that your system has a bad ground setup, or you ignition system
is
not automatically retarding the timing for starting. With electronic
ignition systems working properly the plane should start on the first
or
second blade if the engine is tuned properly. I have test flown 6
airplanes with electronic ignition systems and they all (after
tuning)ran like Swiss watches and started on the first two blades and
at
very low throttle settings (700rpm). You should be able to get the
airplane to start like a car if everything is set up correctly.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronic Ignition Problem
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stucklen, Frederic W
UTPWR" <Fred.Stucklen@UTCFuelCells.com>
Bill,
Interesting, I have a similar setup. I always start the engine with
the
ignition on a separate, isolated battery. I don't get a kickback, but
it
just doesn't start well. I've even tried different mixtures during
startup
(to the extent of flooding the engine). Some listers have indicated
that
the
starter may be turning the engine over too fast for the ignition
during
startup. I have a SkyTec starter. What are you using?
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N926RV
Fred -
I installed dual Electroair ignitions in my Lancair 320 ten
years
ago
and
have never experienced a problem with them, with the exception
of
a
few
rare instances of engine kickback during starting...NOT a good
thing.
To
the credit of my SkyTec starter, it has endured a dozen or more
instances
of these kickbacks.
I spoke with the SkyTec's engineer/owner and he told me the
problem
was
that the Electroair ignition can lose timing during starting
should
the
voltage drop sufficiently low, as would be the case with a weak
battery. I
remembered that the kickbacks had always occurred late in the
life
of
the
three or four batteries I've gone through ( I know, three or
four
batteries
in ten years is excessive, but I now use a battery minder to
maintain
them
during periods of inactivity and they should now last their full
five
to
six year life)
I have an all electric installation (no vacuum pump) with Main
and
Backup
batteries. The Backup battery is charged from the Main bus, but
is
otherwise isolated, unless I switch to backup power, in which
case
it's
dedicated to the electronic iginition. I now switch to backup
power
prior
to starting and the ignition receives full voltage. I've never
experienced
a kickback problem since.
Bill Rumburg
N403WR
Message 2
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Brown" <romott@adelphia.net>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: brucebell74 [mailto:brucebell74@sbcglobal.net]
>Subject: ElectoAir!
>
>Hi Fred,
>I have two ElectroAir Ignition Systems on my IO320. Not flown yet but
>tracking down an excessive RPM drop with one system off. What do you get on
>ground run up with one off. Mine drops about 300 RPM and runs very rough. I
>was looking for something about 50 RPM drop. The local engine guru suggest
>I
>switch some wires on the modules and see what happens. He did a visual
>check
>on it and it looks good. What sort of drop do you get on ground checks? I
>will switch plug wires tomorrow. I am looking at dual mags!
>Best regards,
>Bruce Bell
>Lubbock, Texas
>RV-4 Ser # 2888 N23BB (Used my VAL COM yesterday for the first time with
>Lubbock Ground and was " loud and clear"!
You need to check and make sure you don't have a bad spark plug. I had the
same problem on the initial start of my Lycoming IO360. If you have an EIS
or other EGT monitor, watch all 4 EGT's during the RPM drop. If one of the
plugs on that ElectroAir is bad, the EGT will drop during the test. Move
that plug to another cylinder to verify it is the plug and not a wire. I
replaced the defective new plug and it has been running sweet for the past
190 hours.
I like the Jeff Rose ElectroAir VERY much. Don't replace them with mags -
you'll be sorry! (In fact I have been having a problem with my Slick mag -
the timing will advance itself over time. A thorough inspection found
nothing wrong. I have reset it twice already.)
Re the kick back, I always delay turning the ElectroAir on until the engine
has turned over for a second or two. I have never had a kick back. I have
a single battery.
Message 3
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|
Subject: | Re: re: ElectroAir! |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Denis Walsh <denis.walsh@comcast.net>
Ron a 300rpm drop is a pretty good sign you are missing a cylinder
on a four cyl engine . Check also the lead for the missing
cylinder, including both the end at the coil and the one at the
plug. ends. If there is a separation it will cause the same
symptom. Also fouled plug, broken plug, etc. Any old timer can show
you how to find the cold cylinder after running a brief period with
it missing.
I have had very good service with my slick mag, but also love my
electroair. I have had problems over the eight years I've been
running it with the terminuses (termini?). I highly recommend you
check out getting a set of Champion terminus kits and use REM 37BY
plugs. On the coil end you can use the auto push on nipple things.
Hope this helps and good luck.
Denis Walsh
On Nov 2, 2005, at 6:34 AM, Ron Brown wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Brown"
> <romott@adelphia.net>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: brucebell74 [mailto:brucebell74@sbcglobal.net]
>> Subject: ElectoAir!
>>
>> Hi Fred,
>> I have two ElectroAir Ignition Systems on my IO320. Not flown yet but
>> tracking down an excessive RPM drop with one system off. What do
>> you get on
>> ground run up with one off. Mine drops about 300 RPM and runs very
>> rough. I
>> was looking for something about 50 RPM drop. The local engine guru
>> suggest
>> I
>> switch some wires on the modules and see what happens. He did a
>> visual
>> check
>> on it and it looks good. What sort of drop do you get on ground
>> checks? I
>> will switch plug wires tomorrow. I am looking at dual mags!
>> Best regards,
>> Bruce Bell
>> Lubbock, Texas
>> RV-4 Ser # 2888 N23BB (Used my VAL COM yesterday for the first
>> time with
>> Lubbock Ground and was " loud and clear"!
>
> You need to check and make sure you don't have a bad spark plug. I
> had the
> same problem on the initial start of my Lycoming IO360. If you
> have an EIS
> or other EGT monitor, watch all 4 EGT's during the RPM drop. If
> one of the
> plugs on that ElectroAir is bad, the EGT will drop during the
> test. Move
> that plug to another cylinder to verify it is the plug and not a
> wire. I
> replaced the defective new plug and it has been running sweet for
> the past
> 190 hours.
>
> I like the Jeff Rose ElectroAir VERY much. Don't replace them with
> mags -
> you'll be sorry! (In fact I have been having a problem with my
> Slick mag -
> the timing will advance itself over time. A thorough inspection found
> nothing wrong. I have reset it twice already.)
>
> Re the kick back, I always delay turning the ElectroAir on until
> the engine
> has turned over for a second or two. I have never had a kick
> back. I have
> a single battery.
>
>
Message 4
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|
Subject: | Re: Coax crimper |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Ruse <steve@wotelectronics.com>
For my comm antenna, I bought a 10' section of RG58 that was factory
terminated
with the proper BNC connector at each end. I cut it to length, and soldered
the connections at the antenna end. That way I got factory terminated BNC
connections, and didn't have to buy a crimper. For my radiating element, I
used a brass rod with nylon bushings for insulators. Total cost for the cable
& antenna was under $10, and it will transmit and receive over 40 miles using
my 5 watt Vertex Standard handheld.
Steve Ruse
Quoting "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George
> (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Hello all,
>
> Had to break down and buy a crimper for my RG58 terminations (one I
> borrowed from work was worn).
>
> I purchased a cheapo from Radio Shack at $17 and it works very well. I
> know these crimpers are usually more expensive so I thought I'd pass on
> this tip.
>
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
> Denton
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Intercomm and XM
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton"
> --> <bdenton@bdenton.com>
>
> There are any number of places (including Sporty's) that offer a "box"
> that provides a cellphone/music interface.
>
> You plug your headset and your music source into the box, then plug the
> cables from the box into your existing headset/mic jacks...
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tony
> Marshall
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Intercomm and XM
>
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tony Marshall"
> --> <tony@lambros.com>
>
> My RV6 has a Dave Clark IsoCom intercom. That device has no music input
> jack. Since the device fits nicely into a hole in my panel, I really
> dont wish to change it.
>
> If I were to purchase a Garmin 396 and thereby have XM radio capability,
> is there a 'reasonable' way to introduce that into my intercom system?
> Since I fly alone most of the time, even if it were just available to my
> headset (a Peltor noice cancelling one), that would be
> satisfactory....but having that available to both headsets would
> definitely be better.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Tony Marshall
> RV6
> Polson, MT
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: RE: Electronic Ignition Problem |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Wayne Sweet" <w_sweet@comcast.net>
I have a similar setup, only using LSE's CDI system. I have a 7.5 AH backup
battery which I use to fire the #1 CDI during startup and to power #1 in the
event of lost main bus power. I also have installed a second voltmeter which
can be selected to monitor either main bus or backup voltage. During
startup, the main bus voltage drops to between 8 and 9 volts. This has been
reported to be a problem with CDI systems; the details as to why I don't
recall: perhaps the CDI gets confused or drops off-line.
Once before using the backup for powering the #1, I did get a kick back.
Since then no problems.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" <Fred.Stucklen@UTCFuelCells.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Electronic Ignition Problem
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR"
> <Fred.Stucklen@UTCFuelCells.com>
>
> Mike,
>
> Your point is quite valid, but I've physically checked the battery and
> ignition ground connections multiple times.. I'll run a test this weekend
> and see what kind of voltage drop occurs between the battery ground lead,
> and the ignition ground lead (with a digital storage scope) during the
> engine start sequence.. I don't expect to see more than a few Millivolts.
> I'm wondering if the firewall ground feed thru bolt, which carries the
> starter current, isn't the problem. The Aux battery (that powers just the
> ignitions) is also connected to this feed thru bolt. It's the common
> ground
> to the firewall for the ignition modules. If there is a voltage drop in
> this
> 5/16 X 24 brass bolt, it would certainly explain the problem. Not likely,
> but certainly worth exploring.
> It might also be a better idea to ground the Aux battery to another
> firewall point..... We'll see this weekend...
>
>
> Fred Stucklen
> RV-6A N926RV
>
>
> Time: 08:53:28 AM PST US From: "Mike" <mlas@cox.net> Subject:
> Electronic
> Ignition Problem
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike" <mlas@cox.net>
>
> Fred,
>
> I have the Plasma III electronic ignition in my airplane, but it
> sounds
> to me that your system has a bad ground setup, or you ignition system
> is
> not automatically retarding the timing for starting. With electronic
> ignition systems working properly the plane should start on the first
> or
> second blade if the engine is tuned properly. I have test flown 6
> airplanes with electronic ignition systems and they all (after
> tuning)ran like Swiss watches and started on the first two blades and
> at
> very low throttle settings (700rpm). You should be able to get the
> airplane to start like a car if everything is set up correctly.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronic Ignition Problem
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stucklen, Frederic W
> UTPWR" <Fred.Stucklen@UTCFuelCells.com>
>
> Bill,
>
> Interesting, I have a similar setup. I always start the engine with
> the
> ignition on a separate, isolated battery. I don't get a kickback, but
> it
> just doesn't start well. I've even tried different mixtures during
> startup
> (to the extent of flooding the engine). Some listers have indicated
> that
> the
> starter may be turning the engine over too fast for the ignition
> during
> startup. I have a SkyTec starter. What are you using?
>
> Fred Stucklen
> RV-6A N926RV
>
>
> Fred -
> I installed dual Electroair ignitions in my Lancair 320 ten
> years
> ago
> and
> have never experienced a problem with them, with the exception
> of
> a
> few
> rare instances of engine kickback during starting...NOT a good
> thing.
> To
> the credit of my SkyTec starter, it has endured a dozen or more
> instances
> of these kickbacks.
> I spoke with the SkyTec's engineer/owner and he told me the
> problem
> was
> that the Electroair ignition can lose timing during starting
> should
> the
> voltage drop sufficiently low, as would be the case with a weak
> battery. I
> remembered that the kickbacks had always occurred late in the
> life
> of
> the
> three or four batteries I've gone through ( I know, three or
> four
> batteries
> in ten years is excessive, but I now use a battery minder to
> maintain
> them
> during periods of inactivity and they should now last their
> full
> five
> to
> six year life)
> I have an all electric installation (no vacuum pump) with Main
> and
> Backup
> batteries. The Backup battery is charged from the Main bus, but
> is
> otherwise isolated, unless I switch to backup power, in which
> case
> it's
> dedicated to the electronic iginition. I now switch to backup
> power
> prior
> to starting and the ignition receives full voltage. I've never
> experienced
> a kickback problem since.
>
> Bill Rumburg
> N403WR
>
>
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Z-19 Layout Help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
Mark,
I have a similar setup as you (3-rotor tractor). If you haven't already
done so, I recommend you supply the fuel pumps with cool air to reduce
the chances of vapor-lock. I originally had my efi pumps on the engine
side of the firewall, but have since moved them to the floor of the
cabin just after the selector valve. Lower is better in this instance.
There has been lots of discussion on fuel systems on the Fly Rotary
group.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
R. Supinski
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski"
<mark.supinski@gmail.com>
Hello all-
I'm having some problems physically laying out Z-19 for my Mustang 2
powered
by a Mazda 13B rotary engine.
One of my goals is to have all the fuse blocks located within reach of
the
pilot. On the Mustang 2, the only location for this is against the port
wall, essentially next to the pilot's knees. A consequence of this is
that
the wire runs from the main battery bus and the engine battery bus to
the
Main and Engine battery contactors is much more than 6 inches -- in
fact, it
is 48 inches. http://www.supinski.net/topview.jpg shows this.
While I could relocate the main and engine bus fuse blocks forward of
the
firewall, I would prefer to not to do this. My dual redundant ECUs want
to
be located in the cockpit area (not forward of the firewall as in a car)
so
I prefer to keep the fuse block in the same neighborhood as well.
Presumably
I could increase the size of the wire used for each (currently 12awg) to
make up for extra length. Am I asking for trouble doing this? Should I
simply relocate the blocks & be done with it?
Next is the physical location to install the main, engine, and starter
contactors. http://www.supinski.net/frontview.jpg shows my proposed
install.
My goal here is to keep all the electrical components on the "cool" side
of
the engine. Rotarys run way-hot & I figure the less I have on the
exhaust
side, the happier I'll be. If I have to move the fuse blocks from above,
then I start having problems locating the spark igniters (4, not shown
on
the drawing). In general, I am suffering from not enough real-life
examples
of actual component layouts to emulate. Everyone around here has
by-the-book
Lycoming layouts; not an EFI system to be found.
Sage advice welcome & greatfully accepted...
Thanks,
Mark Supinski
Message 7
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Subject: | Z-19 Layout Help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Actually I would go one stage further and put the fuel pumps inside the
cabin or even better in the wing roots.
To me using a blast tube and cool box on the firewall is trying to treat
the symptom of the disease...You might feel better but it may still kill
you...:)
Note the Eggenfelner Subaru had the setup you describe....but changed it
to move the pumps inside on the cabin floor after they had a vapour
lock incident on takeoff that resulted in a crash.
Lycomings have engine driven pumps because they are intended for 100LL
use that normally has a lower vapour pressure than autofuel and electric
fuel pumps of the past were not trusted, relying on mechanical pumps
that were thought to be safer. In todays world, modern electric fuel
pumps are used on all modern cars and look where they put the pump
either in the tank or right next to it at the lowest point of the
system.
There is a very good reason for this...I.e sucking on a high vapour
pressure liquid is asking for vapour lock....If the temperature of the
liquid (fuel) is allowed to rise the VP gets higher, When the amount of
pump suck equals the VP of the fuel it will boil and your pump will quit
immeditaly.
My advice would be if you are using electric pumps then put them in the
"hydraulically correct" place...I.e low and as close (hydraulically
speaking) to the tanks as possible. This means a 3/8ths feedline to the
pump that is as short as possible. If you are using an EFI pump you'll
need a filter before the pump so get the largest one possible and change
it after say 5 hours on the new airplane and again at say 20 hours then
yearly after that.
In my RV7a (eventualy intended for autofuel use) I have an EFI pump in
each wing root....Both pumps will run on takeoff and landing. To switch
tanks I simply turn the apporpriate pump on/off...I have a carbureted
low wing plane now with the same setup...works sweet. Even better, if a
pump quits on takeoff you won't even know 'cus the other one will
merrily continue to pump fuel. The FI setup I have uses a pressure
relief valve for each pump in the wing root also together with a non
return valve to prevent cross transfer between the wing tanks.
I today see many a fuel pump mounted up on the firewall on a low wing
plane and the owner is ablivious to the dangers...It has resulted in a
number of bent aircraft. I don't like presurised fuel in the cockpit
either but I'd rather have it and not have to worry about the engine
continuing to run on take off on a hot day.
My two cents of course
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
R Steitle
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle"
--> <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
Mark,
I have a similar setup as you (3-rotor tractor). If you haven't already
done so, I recommend you supply the fuel pumps with cool air to reduce
the chances of vapor-lock. I originally had my efi pumps on the engine
side of the firewall, but have since moved them to the floor of the
cabin just after the selector valve. Lower is better in this instance.
There has been lots of discussion on fuel systems on the Fly Rotary
group.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
R. Supinski
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski"
<mark.supinski@gmail.com>
Hello all-
I'm having some problems physically laying out Z-19 for my Mustang 2
powered by a Mazda 13B rotary engine.
One of my goals is to have all the fuse blocks located within reach of
the pilot. On the Mustang 2, the only location for this is against the
port wall, essentially next to the pilot's knees. A consequence of this
is that the wire runs from the main battery bus and the engine battery
bus to the Main and Engine battery contactors is much more than 6 inches
-- in fact, it is 48 inches. http://www.supinski.net/topview.jpg shows
this.
While I could relocate the main and engine bus fuse blocks forward of
the firewall, I would prefer to not to do this. My dual redundant ECUs
want to be located in the cockpit area (not forward of the firewall as
in a car) so I prefer to keep the fuse block in the same neighborhood as
well.
Presumably
I could increase the size of the wire used for each (currently 12awg) to
make up for extra length. Am I asking for trouble doing this? Should I
simply relocate the blocks & be done with it?
Next is the physical location to install the main, engine, and starter
contactors. http://www.supinski.net/frontview.jpg shows my proposed
install.
My goal here is to keep all the electrical components on the "cool" side
of the engine. Rotarys run way-hot & I figure the less I have on the
exhaust side, the happier I'll be. If I have to move the fuse blocks
from above, then I start having problems locating the spark igniters (4,
not shown on the drawing). In general, I am suffering from not enough
real-life examples of actual component layouts to emulate. Everyone
around here has by-the-book Lycoming layouts; not an EFI system to be
found.
Sage advice welcome & greatfully accepted...
Thanks,
Mark Supinski
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Z-19 Layout Help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski" <mark.supinski@gmail.com>
I will be running cooling air onto that area of the firewall -- I plan on
running SCAT tubing from a cheek intake & blowing it down onto the batteries
& fuel pumps to address exactly the concern you are highlighting.
With respect to fuel pump location, the M2's main fuel tank is (essentially)
a giant header tank located right behind the instrument panel. In their
current location, the fuel pumps are almost a foot lower than the sump from
the tank -- I expect very positive priming from this, since there is no
"sucking" going on.
I have never found the fly rotary list -- got a link?
Still need folks input on the original questions! Bob? Someone? Help!
Mark Supinski
On 11/2/05, Mark R Steitle <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu
> >
>
> Mark,
> I have a similar setup as you (3-rotor tractor). If you haven't already
> done so, I recommend you supply the fuel pumps with cool air to reduce
> the chances of vapor-lock. I originally had my efi pumps on the engine
> side of the firewall, but have since moved them to the floor of the
> cabin just after the selector valve. Lower is better in this instance.
> There has been lots of discussion on fuel systems on the Fly Rotary
> group.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
> R. Supinski
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski"
> <mark.supinski@gmail.com>
>
> Hello all-
>
> I'm having some problems physically laying out Z-19 for my Mustang 2
> powered
> by a Mazda 13B rotary engine.
>
> One of my goals is to have all the fuse blocks located within reach of
> the
> pilot. On the Mustang 2, the only location for this is against the port
> wall, essentially next to the pilot's knees. A consequence of this is
> that
> the wire runs from the main battery bus and the engine battery bus to
> the
> Main and Engine battery contactors is much more than 6 inches -- in
> fact, it
> is 48 inches. http://www.supinski.net/topview.jpg shows this.
>
> While I could relocate the main and engine bus fuse blocks forward of
> the
> firewall, I would prefer to not to do this. My dual redundant ECUs want
> to
> be located in the cockpit area (not forward of the firewall as in a car)
> so
> I prefer to keep the fuse block in the same neighborhood as well.
> Presumably
> I could increase the size of the wire used for each (currently 12awg) to
> make up for extra length. Am I asking for trouble doing this? Should I
> simply relocate the blocks & be done with it?
>
> Next is the physical location to install the main, engine, and starter
> contactors. http://www.supinski.net/frontview.jpg shows my proposed
> install.
> My goal here is to keep all the electrical components on the "cool" side
> of
> the engine. Rotarys run way-hot & I figure the less I have on the
> exhaust
> side, the happier I'll be. If I have to move the fuse blocks from above,
> then I start having problems locating the spark igniters (4, not shown
> on
> the drawing). In general, I am suffering from not enough real-life
> examples
> of actual component layouts to emulate. Everyone around here has
> by-the-book
> Lycoming layouts; not an EFI system to be found.
>
> Sage advice welcome & greatfully accepted...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark Supinski
>
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Z-19 Layout Help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
Try www.flyrotary.com
I have never found the fly rotary list -- got a link?
Mark Supinski
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Z-19 Layout Help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski" <mark.supinski@gmail.com>
Unfortunately, I don't have much choice on fuel pump location. Due to the M2
design with the 25 gal. tank behind the instrument panel, I don't have *any*
usable firewall real estate on the cabin-side of the firewall. The tank
abuts the upper half of the firewall, and the rudder pedals abut the lower
half. The current design has (max) 36" of fuel line between the tank sump
and the fuel pumps. There is appx 12" of "head" in the design (tank sump
higher than fuel pumps). The plans-built M2 does not store fuel in the
wings.
...Still looking for some comment on the electrical characteristics of this
design...
Mark Supinski
On 11/2/05, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) <frank.hinde@hp.com> wrote:
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Actually I would go one stage further and put the fuel pumps inside the
> cabin or even better in the wing roots.
>
> To me using a blast tube and cool box on the firewall is trying to treat
> the symptom of the disease...You might feel better but it may still kill
> you...:)
>
> Note the Eggenfelner Subaru had the setup you describe....but changed it
> to move the pumps inside on the cabin floor after they had a vapour
> lock incident on takeoff that resulted in a crash.
>
> Lycomings have engine driven pumps because they are intended for 100LL
> use that normally has a lower vapour pressure than autofuel and electric
> fuel pumps of the past were not trusted, relying on mechanical pumps
> that were thought to be safer. In todays world, modern electric fuel
> pumps are used on all modern cars and look where they put the pump
> either in the tank or right next to it at the lowest point of the
> system.
>
> There is a very good reason for this...I.e sucking on a high vapour
> pressure liquid is asking for vapour lock....If the temperature of the
> liquid (fuel) is allowed to rise the VP gets higher, When the amount of
> pump suck equals the VP of the fuel it will boil and your pump will quit
> immeditaly.
>
> My advice would be if you are using electric pumps then put them in the
> "hydraulically correct" place...I.e low and as close (hydraulically
> speaking) to the tanks as possible. This means a 3/8ths feedline to the
> pump that is as short as possible. If you are using an EFI pump you'll
> need a filter before the pump so get the largest one possible and change
> it after say 5 hours on the new airplane and again at say 20 hours then
> yearly after that.
>
> In my RV7a (eventualy intended for autofuel use) I have an EFI pump in
> each wing root....Both pumps will run on takeoff and landing. To switch
> tanks I simply turn the apporpriate pump on/off...I have a carbureted
> low wing plane now with the same setup...works sweet. Even better, if a
> pump quits on takeoff you won't even know 'cus the other one will
> merrily continue to pump fuel. The FI setup I have uses a pressure
> relief valve for each pump in the wing root also together with a non
> return valve to prevent cross transfer between the wing tanks.
>
> I today see many a fuel pump mounted up on the firewall on a low wing
> plane and the owner is ablivious to the dangers...It has resulted in a
> number of bent aircraft. I don't like presurised fuel in the cockpit
> either but I'd rather have it and not have to worry about the engine
> continuing to run on take off on a hot day.
>
> My two cents of course
>
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
> R Steitle
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle"
> --> <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
>
> Mark,
> I have a similar setup as you (3-rotor tractor). If you haven't already
> done so, I recommend you supply the fuel pumps with cool air to reduce
> the chances of vapor-lock. I originally had my efi pumps on the engine
> side of the firewall, but have since moved them to the floor of the
> cabin just after the selector valve. Lower is better in this instance.
> There has been lots of discussion on fuel systems on the Fly Rotary
> group.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
> R. Supinski
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski"
> <mark.supinski@gmail.com>
>
> Hello all-
>
> I'm having some problems physically laying out Z-19 for my Mustang 2
> powered by a Mazda 13B rotary engine.
>
> One of my goals is to have all the fuse blocks located within reach of
> the pilot. On the Mustang 2, the only location for this is against the
> port wall, essentially next to the pilot's knees. A consequence of this
> is that the wire runs from the main battery bus and the engine battery
> bus to the Main and Engine battery contactors is much more than 6 inches
> -- in fact, it is 48 inches. http://www.supinski.net/topview.jpg shows
> this.
>
> While I could relocate the main and engine bus fuse blocks forward of
> the firewall, I would prefer to not to do this. My dual redundant ECUs
> want to be located in the cockpit area (not forward of the firewall as
> in a car) so I prefer to keep the fuse block in the same neighborhood as
> well.
> Presumably
> I could increase the size of the wire used for each (currently 12awg) to
> make up for extra length. Am I asking for trouble doing this? Should I
> simply relocate the blocks & be done with it?
>
> Next is the physical location to install the main, engine, and starter
> contactors. http://www.supinski.net/frontview.jpg shows my proposed
> install.
> My goal here is to keep all the electrical components on the "cool" side
> of the engine. Rotarys run way-hot & I figure the less I have on the
> exhaust side, the happier I'll be. If I have to move the fuse blocks
> from above, then I start having problems locating the spark igniters (4,
> not shown on the drawing). In general, I am suffering from not enough
> real-life examples of actual component layouts to emulate. Everyone
> around here has by-the-book Lycoming layouts; not an EFI system to be
> found.
>
> Sage advice welcome & greatfully accepted...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark Supinski
>
>
Message 11
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|
Subject: | Charging two batteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ted D. Hultzapple" <thultzap@rochester.rr.com>
Guys, I have a motorglider with two batteries, a 17ah. for the starter and
engine electrics, and a 7.2 ah. for the avionics. The batteries are on
separate circuits, so I have to charge them separately. I think both
batteries are sealed lead acid. Is it o.k. to charge the batteries in
parallel or do they have to be isolated with diodes? I was thinking of
using a plug to charge both batteries at the same time but would separate
the circuits when I removed the charger.
Thanks
Ted
Message 12
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Subject: | Re E-bus alternate feed |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: pfsiegel <psiegel@fuse.net>
Bob et al,
Thanks for taking interest in my question.
I am using a modified version of your Z-14 dual battery, dual alternator
split bus scheme.
I started out with the best intentions of keeping the e-bus load to the
bare minimums. But...
My nav-com will come from a Garmin 430 which has GPS as well as
VOR/localizer/ glide slope.
Of course I included panel lights.
My horizon information comes from a Grand Rapids EFIS system.
Since I don't have a directional gyro in my all electric panel, the
heading information comes from the True Track digital autopilot.
If I have a copilot in the back seat of my F1 Evo (tapered wing version
of the Harmon Rocket) I'd want to communicate in an emergency, so I
included the audio panel/intercom.
And I know you don't suggest it, but I left the transponder on the E-bus
too.
That is how I ended up with so much load on my e-bus. I'm not too
worried about the high load because I have the backup alternator and
backup battery.
My real question is how to protect my alternate feeds from the always
hot battery busses?
The switch to select alternate feed is a 20 amp circuitbreaker switch.
But that still leaves the wire from the always hot bus to the circuit
breaker switch unprotected.
I have considered placing an inline fuse or possibly a current limiter
right at the always hot bus in the wire path of the wire to the circuit
breaker switch.
One drawback is that I cannot "turn off" power in the wire that goes to
the circuit breaker switch, which of course I could do with a relay used
right at the always hot battery bus.
The primary reason for the always hot bus is to have a bullet proof
supply the electronic ignition.
I sure appreciate your thoughts on this matter!
Paul
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Z-19 Layout Help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net>
Hi Mark,
I wonder why it is one of your design goals to locate the fuse blocks
where they can distract... uh.. be accessed during flight? There have
been many discussions about this topic.. Viewable in the archives. The
short answer is to design the electrical system so that it is fault
tolerant - failure of any single component doesn't require
debugging/repair while in flight.
Regards,
Matt-
do not archive
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski"
> <mark.supinski@gmail.com>
>
> Hello all-
>
> I'm having some problems physically laying out Z-19 for my Mustang 2
> powered by a Mazda 13B rotary engine.
>
> One of my goals is to have all the fuse blocks located within reach of
> the pilot. On the Mustang 2, the only location for this is against the
> port wall, essentially next to the pilot's knees. A consequence of this
> is that the wire runs from the main battery bus and the engine battery
> bus to the Main and Engine battery contactors is much more than 6 inches
> -- in fact, it is 48 inches. http://www.supinski.net/topview.jpg shows
> this.
>
Message 14
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|
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
My Gamin transponder says to avoid mounting the antennae within three feet of a
comm antennae. I have the bent whip style comm ant and was wondering if the
3 foot is measured from the transponder ant (ball), to the tip of the comm ant
or the base of the comm ant.
Thanks in advance,
Jim
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: re: ElectroAir! |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
I did a google search for "Champion terminus kits" nothing of interest came
up. What the heck are these things?
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Denis Walsh" <denis.walsh@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: re: ElectroAir!
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Denis Walsh
> <denis.walsh@comcast.net>
>
> Ron a 300rpm drop is a pretty good sign you are missing a cylinder
> on a four cyl engine . Check also the lead for the missing
> cylinder, including both the end at the coil and the one at the
> plug. ends. If there is a separation it will cause the same
> symptom. Also fouled plug, broken plug, etc. Any old timer can show
> you how to find the cold cylinder after running a brief period with
> it missing.
>
> I have had very good service with my slick mag, but also love my
> electroair. I have had problems over the eight years I've been
> running it with the terminuses (termini?). I highly recommend you
> check out getting a set of Champion terminus kits and use REM 37BY
> plugs. On the coil end you can use the auto push on nipple things.
>
> Hope this helps and good luck.
>
>
> Denis Walsh
>
> On Nov 2, 2005, at 6:34 AM, Ron Brown wrote:
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Brown"
>> <romott@adelphia.net>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: brucebell74 [mailto:brucebell74@sbcglobal.net]
>>> Subject: ElectoAir!
>>>
>>> Hi Fred,
>>> I have two ElectroAir Ignition Systems on my IO320. Not flown yet but
>>> tracking down an excessive RPM drop with one system off. What do
>>> you get on
>>> ground run up with one off. Mine drops about 300 RPM and runs very
>>> rough. I
>>> was looking for something about 50 RPM drop. The local engine guru
>>> suggest
>>> I
>>> switch some wires on the modules and see what happens. He did a
>>> visual
>>> check
>>> on it and it looks good. What sort of drop do you get on ground
>>> checks? I
>>> will switch plug wires tomorrow. I am looking at dual mags!
>>> Best regards,
>>> Bruce Bell
>>> Lubbock, Texas
>>> RV-4 Ser # 2888 N23BB (Used my VAL COM yesterday for the first
>>> time with
>>> Lubbock Ground and was " loud and clear"!
>>
>> You need to check and make sure you don't have a bad spark plug. I
>> had the
>> same problem on the initial start of my Lycoming IO360. If you
>> have an EIS
>> or other EGT monitor, watch all 4 EGT's during the RPM drop. If
>> one of the
>> plugs on that ElectroAir is bad, the EGT will drop during the
>> test. Move
>> that plug to another cylinder to verify it is the plug and not a
>> wire. I
>> replaced the defective new plug and it has been running sweet for
>> the past
>> 190 hours.
>>
>> I like the Jeff Rose ElectroAir VERY much. Don't replace them with
>> mags -
>> you'll be sorry! (In fact I have been having a problem with my
>> Slick mag -
>> the timing will advance itself over time. A thorough inspection found
>> nothing wrong. I have reset it twice already.)
>>
>> Re the kick back, I always delay turning the ElectroAir on until
>> the engine
>> has turned over for a second or two. I have never had a kick
>> back. I have
>> a single battery.
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 16
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|
Subject: | Z-19 Layout Help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I had a longer run than 6 inches too.
What I did was to size the cable to feed the main and battery busses as
I normally would (I have 12Ga feeding the batt buss and 2*12GA wires
feeding the main buss...each about 2 ft long). I then used a fusable
link at the source (contactor for the main buss and battery for the batt
buss) of 16GA wire about 4 inches long each.
In other words I still effectively have the short piece of thin wire
that would burn up in the event of a major short...God forbid.
While I was at it I took a seperate wire directly from the battery to
feed the second fuel pump...I think I used an 18Ga, also with a short
length of 22Ga for the fuse link.
The advantage with this approach is I could put the fuse blocks wherever
I want. I also took the precaution of protecting these main feeds with a
continuous lentgh of 1/4" PFA tubing.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark
R. Supinski
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski"
--> <mark.supinski@gmail.com>
Unfortunately, I don't have much choice on fuel pump location. Due to
the M2 design with the 25 gal. tank behind the instrument panel, I don't
have *any* usable firewall real estate on the cabin-side of the
firewall. The tank abuts the upper half of the firewall, and the rudder
pedals abut the lower half. The current design has (max) 36" of fuel
line between the tank sump and the fuel pumps. There is appx 12" of
"head" in the design (tank sump higher than fuel pumps). The plans-built
M2 does not store fuel in the wings.
...Still looking for some comment on the electrical characteristics of
this design...
Message 17
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|
Subject: | Re: Z-19 Layout Help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski" <mark.supinski@gmail.com>
Hello Matt-
Yes, there is some of that in there. I selected Z-19 for the redundancy it
offers, but can't quite bring myself to totally move all the fuse blocks to
some obscure location. The M2 doesn't help -- there are very few areas in
the cabin area to begin with. The location selected is a compromise to make
ground maintenance relatively easy, and in-flight access at least possible
even if it should never be required.
I may have to throw in the towel on the main and engine buses and just move
them to next to the batteries. Doing so would make mounting the ECUs
easier.. As for the igniters... oh well, I'll find someplace for them to
go...
Mark
On 11/2/05, Matt Prather <mprather@spro.net> wrote:
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" <mprather@spro.net
> >
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> I wonder why it is one of your design goals to locate the fuse blocks
> where they can distract... uh.. be accessed during flight? There have
> been many discussions about this topic.. Viewable in the archives. The
> short answer is to design the electrical system so that it is fault
> tolerant - failure of any single component doesn't require
> debugging/repair while in flight.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Matt-
> do not archive
>
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski"
> > <mark.supinski@gmail.com>
> >
> > Hello all-
> >
> > I'm having some problems physically laying out Z-19 for my Mustang 2
> > powered by a Mazda 13B rotary engine.
> >
> > One of my goals is to have all the fuse blocks located within reach of
> > the pilot. On the Mustang 2, the only location for this is against the
> > port wall, essentially next to the pilot's knees. A consequence of this
> > is that the wire runs from the main battery bus and the engine battery
> > bus to the Main and Engine battery contactors is much more than 6 inches
> > -- in fact, it is 48 inches. http://www.supinski.net/topview.jpg shows
> > this.
> >
>
>
Message 18
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|
Subject: | Re: Charging two batteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Ruse <steve@wotelectronics.com>
I would recommend that you charge them separately. Charging them in parallel
will result in one battery being charged before the other, but a charging
voltage will be maintained on that battery until the 2nd battery is done
charging & the charger shuts down. One battery will likely overcharge every
time, and its life might be shortened, if it doesn't leak or explode.
I've seen this become a problem even when the batteries were the same size. I
would also recommend that even a single battery not be left unattended in the
plane while charging. The chance of a leak or fire scares me too much.
Just my two cents.
Steve Ruse
Quoting "Ted D. Hultzapple" <thultzap@rochester.rr.com>:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ted D. Hultzapple"
> <thultzap@rochester.rr.com>
>
> Guys, I have a motorglider with two batteries, a 17ah. for the starter and
> engine electrics, and a 7.2 ah. for the avionics. The batteries are on
> separate circuits, so I have to charge them separately. I think both
> batteries are sealed lead acid. Is it o.k. to charge the batteries in
> parallel or do they have to be isolated with diodes? I was thinking of
> using a plug to charge both batteries at the same time but would separate
> the circuits when I removed the charger.
> Thanks
> Ted
Message 19
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|
Subject: | Re: Re E-bus alternate feed |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sean Stephens <schmoboy@cox.net>
Check out this archived message...
<http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=45044701?KEYS=bus_architecture?LISTNAME=AeroElectric?HITNUMBER=4?SERIAL=11075730968?SHOWBUTTONS=YES>
There's a reference to the following sketch...
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Schematics/E-BusFatFeed.gif>
-Sean
pfsiegel wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: pfsiegel <psiegel@fuse.net>
>
> Bob et al,
>
> Thanks for taking interest in my question.
>
> I am using a modified version of your Z-14 dual battery, dual alternator
> split bus scheme.
>
>
> I started out with the best intentions of keeping the e-bus load to the
> bare minimums. But...
>
> My nav-com will come from a Garmin 430 which has GPS as well as
> VOR/localizer/ glide slope.
>
> Of course I included panel lights.
>
> My horizon information comes from a Grand Rapids EFIS system.
>
> Since I don't have a directional gyro in my all electric panel, the
> heading information comes from the True Track digital autopilot.
>
> If I have a copilot in the back seat of my F1 Evo (tapered wing version
> of the Harmon Rocket) I'd want to communicate in an emergency, so I
> included the audio panel/intercom.
>
> And I know you don't suggest it, but I left the transponder on the E-bus
> too.
>
> That is how I ended up with so much load on my e-bus. I'm not too
> worried about the high load because I have the backup alternator and
> backup battery.
>
> My real question is how to protect my alternate feeds from the always
> hot battery busses?
>
> The switch to select alternate feed is a 20 amp circuitbreaker switch.
> But that still leaves the wire from the always hot bus to the circuit
> breaker switch unprotected.
>
> I have considered placing an inline fuse or possibly a current limiter
> right at the always hot bus in the wire path of the wire to the circuit
> breaker switch.
>
> One drawback is that I cannot "turn off" power in the wire that goes to
> the circuit breaker switch, which of course I could do with a relay used
> right at the always hot battery bus.
>
> The primary reason for the always hot bus is to have a bullet proof
> supply the electronic ignition.
>
> I sure appreciate your thoughts on this matter!
>
> Paul
>
>
>
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: Charging two batteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 12:30 PM 11/2/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ted D. Hultzapple"
><thultzap@rochester.rr.com>
>
>Guys, I have a motorglider with two batteries, a 17ah. for the starter and
>engine electrics, and a 7.2 ah. for the avionics. The batteries are on
>separate circuits, so I have to charge them separately. I think both
>batteries are sealed lead acid. Is it o.k. to charge the batteries in
>parallel or do they have to be isolated with diodes? I was thinking of
>using a plug to charge both batteries at the same time but would separate
>the circuits when I removed the charger.
Each battery needs a separate disconnect switch, relay, contactor.
While the alternator is operating, you can have as many batteries
as you wish all tied together through their various closed disconnect
device (See Z-figures for multiple battery applications). When the
ACTIVE NOTIFICATI0N OF LOW VOLTAGE warning comes on, you separate
each battery off to its own task by repositioning the disconnect
devices.
If you're talking about ground maintenance charging, you could
arrange a charging connector with a ground pin and separate, fused
leads to each of the batteries. For two batteries, you need three
pins. Have the mating connector for the charger harness common the
two batteries together while the charger is plugged in.
As I write these words, there are 5 SVLA instrumentation batteries
ranging from 17 a.h. to 32 a.h. all paralleled and all being supported
on a single Battery Tender Junior. See:
http://batterytender.com/default.php?cPath=11_3
Search Ebay for "battery tender" junior for some volume dealer
pricing of these products.
Bob . . .
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: Charging two batteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 02:03 PM 11/2/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Ruse <steve@wotelectronics.com>
>
>I would recommend that you charge them separately. Charging them in parallel
>will result in one battery being charged before the other, but a charging
>voltage will be maintained on that battery until the 2nd battery is done
>charging & the charger shuts down. One battery will likely overcharge every
>time, and its life might be shortened, if it doesn't leak or explode.
These concerns are borne of decades of urban legend and hangar
myths. SVLA batteries are not subject to leaking, exploding or
any sort of overstress or hazard because one battery achieves
full charge before the other(s) achieve full charge.
>I've seen this become a problem even when the batteries were the same size. I
>would also recommend that even a single battery not be left unattended in the
>plane while charging. The chance of a leak or fire scares me too much.
There are chargers and then there are CHARGERS. It's so inexpensive
to acquire and utilize a real charger for battery storage and maintenance
that there's no real excuse for not doing it. I don't think Walmart
has a single charger on the shelf these days that cannot be left
connected and plugged in indefinitely.
I've supplied about a half dozen members of my family with smart
chargers and we have three or four of them in use in our shop. But in
any case, concerns about leaks and fires on SVLA batteries due to
charging issues are not founded in the physics of how these critters
behave.
Bob . . .
Message 22
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 12:42 PM 11/2/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" <jrstone@insightbb.com>
>
>My Gamin transponder says to avoid mounting the antennae within three feet
>of a comm antennae. I have the bent whip style comm ant and was wondering
>if the 3 foot is measured from the transponder ant (ball), to the tip of
>the comm ant or the base of the comm ant.
>Thanks in advance,
Pick the one that's most attractive to you . . . it will be
fine. That "3-foot" number has more to do with CYA than
real engineering concerns.
Bob . . .
Message 23
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Subject: | Re: Re E-bus alternate feed |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 12:31 PM 11/2/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: pfsiegel <psiegel@fuse.net>
>
> Bob et al,
>
>Thanks for taking interest in my question.
>
>I am using a modified version of your Z-14 dual battery, dual alternator
>split bus scheme.
Okay, if you have Z-14, why do you have an e-bus? The whole
purpose of the Z-14 architecture was to eliminate the need
for an e-bus.
>I started out with the best intentions of keeping the e-bus load to the
>bare minimums. But...
>
>My nav-com will come from a Garmin 430 which has GPS as well as
>VOR/localizer/ glide slope.
>
>Of course I included panel lights.
>
>My horizon information comes from a Grand Rapids EFIS system.
>
>Since I don't have a directional gyro in my all electric panel, the
>heading information comes from the True Track digital autopilot.
>
>If I have a copilot in the back seat of my F1 Evo (tapered wing version
>of the Harmon Rocket) I'd want to communicate in an emergency, so I
>included the audio panel/intercom.
>
>And I know you don't suggest it, but I left the transponder on the E-bus
>too.
>
>That is how I ended up with so much load on my e-bus. I'm not too
>worried about the high load because I have the backup alternator and
>backup battery.
>
>My real question is how to protect my alternate feeds from the always
>hot battery busses?
The best way to protect alternate feeds in Z-14 is to take them out.
They add no value and as you've discovered, create new system design
and integration concerns.
Bob . . .
Message 24
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Subject: | Re: Ammeter shunt wiring, Part II |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 08:56 PM 11/1/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Neubauer" <markn@fuse.net>
>
>The ammeters (2 of them) were purchased from Van's, I presume they are
>analog, and 50 mA rating if I remember correctly. They were wired just like
>that shown in Aeroelectric Connection (in the alternator output line). The
>shunts were purchased from B&C (It's been 2 years since they were wired) One
>is connected to show current flow from alt#1 (a B&C externally regulated
>unit), the other from alt#2 (an SD-8); no switching is therefore needed for
>individual readings.
>
>Bob, you ask if these are electronic ammeters. What other kind of ammeter is
>there besides electronic?
There are ammeters . . . electro-mechanical things with springs, pointers,
coils of wire and then there are electronic displays architectured
and scaled to display amps when reading the voltage drop across an
ammeter shunt. Electronic displays have vulnerabilities to external
stimulus that is not shared by real ammeters.
The symptoms you describe really raise some questions about correct
wiring of the instruments. The ammeter reading voltage drop
across a shunt is about as bullet-proof as you can get when
correctly wired.
Bob . . .
Message 25
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Subject: | Charging two batteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Just bought one for $24 plus shipping off EBAY...My little harbor
freight charger was still about .25V low for a continuous trickle to my
Odyssey battery even after 2 days.
Thanks...Spend the money do the right thing and forget about it!...:)
Frank
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charging two batteries
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
--> <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 02:03 PM 11/2/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Ruse
>--> <steve@wotelectronics.com>
>
>I would recommend that you charge them separately. Charging them in
>parallel will result in one battery being charged before the other, but
>a charging voltage will be maintained on that battery until the 2nd
>battery is done charging & the charger shuts down. One battery will
>likely overcharge every time, and its life might be shortened, if it
doesn't leak or explode.
These concerns are borne of decades of urban legend and hangar
myths. SVLA batteries are not subject to leaking, exploding or
any sort of overstress or hazard because one battery achieves
full charge before the other(s) achieve full charge.
>I've seen this become a problem even when the batteries were the same
>size. I would also recommend that even a single battery not be left
>unattended in the plane while charging. The chance of a leak or fire
scares me too much.
There are chargers and then there are CHARGERS. It's so inexpensive
to acquire and utilize a real charger for battery storage and
maintenance
that there's no real excuse for not doing it. I don't think Walmart
has a single charger on the shelf these days that cannot be left
connected and plugged in indefinitely.
I've supplied about a half dozen members of my family with smart
chargers and we have three or four of them in use in our shop. But
in
any case, concerns about leaks and fires on SVLA batteries due to
charging issues are not founded in the physics of how these critters
behave.
Bob . . .
Message 26
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Subject: | Z-19 Layout Help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert Dufresne <robertdufresne@videotron.ca>
Aircraft Rotary Engine Newsletter moderated by Paul Lamar
..... Who is Paul Lamar?
..... Want to join the Newsletter?
http://www.rotaryeng.net/
try this site for a rotary newsletter
Robert
-----Message d'origine-----
De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Mark R
Steitle
Envoy: 2 novembre, 2005 11:44
: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Objet: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle"
<mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
Try www.flyrotary.com
I have never found the fly rotary list -- got a link?
Mark Supinski
Message 27
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Subject: | shielded wire installation |
11/02/2005 06:29:31 PM
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com
greetings
Stupid questions from the electrically challenged:
Recently received a strobe system from Creativ Air. The bundled wire
supplied for the task includes a bare wire that I presume is associated
with the surrounding thin foil shield. No instructions provided for the
bare wire. Does it get connected to ground along with the normal insulated
ground wire or just float unconnected? If connected to ground, does it
matter whether just one end or both ends of it are connected? And exactly
what am I actually protecting myself from here? Isnt shielding pretty
limited in what it can do?
One more: the provided individual strobe wires are 22 awg. Seemed small
to me, but I believe thats good for 5 amps, and looking at the system specs
and the wire chart, that should work for this system. But dont the strobe
trigger wires have really high voltage, maybe even in the low thousands of
volts? Isnt there a limit to the voltage a wire can carry as well as the
amps? Should I be concerned?What say the list?
Yes, I can e-mail Creativ Air, but Im betting the list will be faster.
Heck, maybe someone else will benefit as well.
thanks guys
Erich Weaver
Message 28
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Subject: | Re: Charging two batteries |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joe Dubner <jdubner@yahoo.com>
On 02-Nov-05 14:37 Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Just bought one for $24 plus shipping off EBAY...My little harbor
> freight charger was still about .25V low for a continuous trickle to my
> Odyssey battery even after 2 days.
>
> Thanks...Spend the money do the right thing and forget about it!...:)
>
> Frank
The Harbor Freight "battery maintainer" is adjustable, you know. At
least the old models were although a friend recently bought one that had
a fixed voltage output. The unit is nothing more than a current-limited
constant-voltage power supply using a 7805 regulator and a handful of
discrete components.
Adjusting it involves opening up the housing and tweaking a small pot
while measuring the no-load output on an accurate voltmeter. 13.5 volts
is about right IMO.
Seems like a lot of value for about $10 on sale.
--
Joe
Joe Dubner
Long-EZ 821RP
Lewiston, ID
http://www.nicon.org/chapter328/jd/
Message 29
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Subject: | Re: Z-19 Layout Help |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil White" <philwhite9@aol.com>
Mark: If you read Bob's book, he recommends that the fuse block not be
accessible while airborne. Attempting to fix an electrical problem
while flying is inviting trouble. The philosophy is to put a circuit
breaker for the alternator Field on the panel, then hide the fuse block
under the panel where you aren't tempted to get to it while flying.
Several builders have mounted their fuse blocks on swing-down plates
below the panel area, so it is easy to see and change fuses on the
ground. Panel swings up out of the way for flight.
You mention having a 13B in your Mustang. I haven't seen you post on
the Rotary engine forum (Rotary motors in aircraft
<flyrotary@lancaironline.net>). Where are you located?
Phil RV-10 under construction with Mazda 20B to be installed
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