---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 11/02/05: 29 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:46 AM - Re: Electronic Ignition Problem (Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR) 2. 05:48 AM - Re: ElectroAir! (Ron Brown) 3. 06:21 AM - Re: Re: ElectroAir! (Denis Walsh) 4. 06:30 AM - Re: Coax crimper (Steve Ruse) 5. 06:51 AM - Re: Re: Electronic Ignition Problem (Wayne Sweet) 6. 07:27 AM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Mark R Steitle) 7. 08:15 AM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 8. 08:29 AM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Mark R. Supinski) 9. 08:45 AM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Mark R Steitle) 10. 09:20 AM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Mark R. Supinski) 11. 09:29 AM - Charging two batteries (Ted D. Hultzapple) 12. 09:32 AM - Re E-bus alternate feed (pfsiegel) 13. 09:35 AM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Matt Prather) 14. 09:43 AM - com ant (Jim Stone) 15. 09:47 AM - Re: Re: ElectroAir! (Jim Stone) 16. 09:59 AM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 17. 10:13 AM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Mark R. Supinski) 18. 11:05 AM - Re: Charging two batteries (Steve Ruse) 19. 11:10 AM - Re: Re E-bus alternate feed (Sean Stephens) 20. 01:49 PM - Re: Charging two batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 21. 02:18 PM - Re: Charging two batteries (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 22. 02:19 PM - Re: com ant (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 23. 02:22 PM - Re: Re E-bus alternate feed (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 24. 02:26 PM - Re: Ammeter shunt wiring, Part II (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 25. 02:39 PM - Re: Charging two batteries (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)) 26. 03:09 PM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Robert Dufresne) 27. 03:30 PM - shielded wire installation (Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com) 28. 07:55 PM - Re: Charging two batteries (Joe Dubner) 29. 11:22 PM - Re: Z-19 Layout Help (Phil White) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:46:30 AM PST US From: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Electronic Ignition Problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" Mike, Your point is quite valid, but I've physically checked the battery and ignition ground connections multiple times.. I'll run a test this weekend and see what kind of voltage drop occurs between the battery ground lead, and the ignition ground lead (with a digital storage scope) during the engine start sequence.. I don't expect to see more than a few Millivolts. I'm wondering if the firewall ground feed thru bolt, which carries the starter current, isn't the problem. The Aux battery (that powers just the ignitions) is also connected to this feed thru bolt. It's the common ground to the firewall for the ignition modules. If there is a voltage drop in this 5/16 X 24 brass bolt, it would certainly explain the problem. Not likely, but certainly worth exploring. It might also be a better idea to ground the Aux battery to another firewall point..... We'll see this weekend... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N926RV Time: 08:53:28 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: Electronic Ignition Problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike" Fred, I have the Plasma III electronic ignition in my airplane, but it sounds to me that your system has a bad ground setup, or you ignition system is not automatically retarding the timing for starting. With electronic ignition systems working properly the plane should start on the first or second blade if the engine is tuned properly. I have test flown 6 airplanes with electronic ignition systems and they all (after tuning)ran like Swiss watches and started on the first two blades and at very low throttle settings (700rpm). You should be able to get the airplane to start like a car if everything is set up correctly. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronic Ignition Problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" Bill, Interesting, I have a similar setup. I always start the engine with the ignition on a separate, isolated battery. I don't get a kickback, but it just doesn't start well. I've even tried different mixtures during startup (to the extent of flooding the engine). Some listers have indicated that the starter may be turning the engine over too fast for the ignition during startup. I have a SkyTec starter. What are you using? Fred Stucklen RV-6A N926RV Fred - I installed dual Electroair ignitions in my Lancair 320 ten years ago and have never experienced a problem with them, with the exception of a few rare instances of engine kickback during starting...NOT a good thing. To the credit of my SkyTec starter, it has endured a dozen or more instances of these kickbacks. I spoke with the SkyTec's engineer/owner and he told me the problem was that the Electroair ignition can lose timing during starting should the voltage drop sufficiently low, as would be the case with a weak battery. I remembered that the kickbacks had always occurred late in the life of the three or four batteries I've gone through ( I know, three or four batteries in ten years is excessive, but I now use a battery minder to maintain them during periods of inactivity and they should now last their full five to six year life) I have an all electric installation (no vacuum pump) with Main and Backup batteries. The Backup battery is charged from the Main bus, but is otherwise isolated, unless I switch to backup power, in which case it's dedicated to the electronic iginition. I now switch to backup power prior to starting and the ignition receives full voltage. I've never experienced a kickback problem since. Bill Rumburg N403WR ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:39 AM PST US From: "Ron Brown" Subject: AeroElectric-List: re: ElectroAir! --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Brown" >-----Original Message----- >From: brucebell74 [mailto:brucebell74@sbcglobal.net] >Subject: ElectoAir! > >Hi Fred, >I have two ElectroAir Ignition Systems on my IO320. Not flown yet but >tracking down an excessive RPM drop with one system off. What do you get on >ground run up with one off. Mine drops about 300 RPM and runs very rough. I >was looking for something about 50 RPM drop. The local engine guru suggest >I >switch some wires on the modules and see what happens. He did a visual >check >on it and it looks good. What sort of drop do you get on ground checks? I >will switch plug wires tomorrow. I am looking at dual mags! >Best regards, >Bruce Bell >Lubbock, Texas >RV-4 Ser # 2888 N23BB (Used my VAL COM yesterday for the first time with >Lubbock Ground and was " loud and clear"! You need to check and make sure you don't have a bad spark plug. I had the same problem on the initial start of my Lycoming IO360. If you have an EIS or other EGT monitor, watch all 4 EGT's during the RPM drop. If one of the plugs on that ElectroAir is bad, the EGT will drop during the test. Move that plug to another cylinder to verify it is the plug and not a wire. I replaced the defective new plug and it has been running sweet for the past 190 hours. I like the Jeff Rose ElectroAir VERY much. Don't replace them with mags - you'll be sorry! (In fact I have been having a problem with my Slick mag - the timing will advance itself over time. A thorough inspection found nothing wrong. I have reset it twice already.) Re the kick back, I always delay turning the ElectroAir on until the engine has turned over for a second or two. I have never had a kick back. I have a single battery. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:45 AM PST US From: Denis Walsh Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: re: ElectroAir! --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Denis Walsh Ron a 300rpm drop is a pretty good sign you are missing a cylinder on a four cyl engine . Check also the lead for the missing cylinder, including both the end at the coil and the one at the plug. ends. If there is a separation it will cause the same symptom. Also fouled plug, broken plug, etc. Any old timer can show you how to find the cold cylinder after running a brief period with it missing. I have had very good service with my slick mag, but also love my electroair. I have had problems over the eight years I've been running it with the terminuses (termini?). I highly recommend you check out getting a set of Champion terminus kits and use REM 37BY plugs. On the coil end you can use the auto push on nipple things. Hope this helps and good luck. Denis Walsh On Nov 2, 2005, at 6:34 AM, Ron Brown wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Brown" > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: brucebell74 [mailto:brucebell74@sbcglobal.net] >> Subject: ElectoAir! >> >> Hi Fred, >> I have two ElectroAir Ignition Systems on my IO320. Not flown yet but >> tracking down an excessive RPM drop with one system off. What do >> you get on >> ground run up with one off. Mine drops about 300 RPM and runs very >> rough. I >> was looking for something about 50 RPM drop. The local engine guru >> suggest >> I >> switch some wires on the modules and see what happens. He did a >> visual >> check >> on it and it looks good. What sort of drop do you get on ground >> checks? I >> will switch plug wires tomorrow. I am looking at dual mags! >> Best regards, >> Bruce Bell >> Lubbock, Texas >> RV-4 Ser # 2888 N23BB (Used my VAL COM yesterday for the first >> time with >> Lubbock Ground and was " loud and clear"! > > You need to check and make sure you don't have a bad spark plug. I > had the > same problem on the initial start of my Lycoming IO360. If you > have an EIS > or other EGT monitor, watch all 4 EGT's during the RPM drop. If > one of the > plugs on that ElectroAir is bad, the EGT will drop during the > test. Move > that plug to another cylinder to verify it is the plug and not a > wire. I > replaced the defective new plug and it has been running sweet for > the past > 190 hours. > > I like the Jeff Rose ElectroAir VERY much. Don't replace them with > mags - > you'll be sorry! (In fact I have been having a problem with my > Slick mag - > the timing will advance itself over time. A thorough inspection found > nothing wrong. I have reset it twice already.) > > Re the kick back, I always delay turning the ElectroAir on until > the engine > has turned over for a second or two. I have never had a kick > back. I have > a single battery. > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:36 AM PST US From: Steve Ruse Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Coax crimper --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Ruse For my comm antenna, I bought a 10' section of RG58 that was factory terminated with the proper BNC connector at each end. I cut it to length, and soldered the connections at the antenna end. That way I got factory terminated BNC connections, and didn't have to buy a crimper. For my radiating element, I used a brass rod with nylon bushings for insulators. Total cost for the cable & antenna was under $10, and it will transmit and receive over 40 miles using my 5 watt Vertex Standard handheld. Steve Ruse Quoting "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" : > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George > (Corvallis)" > > Hello all, > > Had to break down and buy a crimper for my RG58 terminations (one I > borrowed from work was worn). > > I purchased a cheapo from Radio Shack at $17 and it works very well. I > know these crimpers are usually more expensive so I thought I'd pass on > this tip. > > Frank > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill > Denton > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Intercomm and XM > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Denton" > --> > > There are any number of places (including Sporty's) that offer a "box" > that provides a cellphone/music interface. > > You plug your headset and your music source into the box, then plug the > cables from the box into your existing headset/mic jacks... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tony > Marshall > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Intercomm and XM > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Tony Marshall" > --> > > My RV6 has a Dave Clark IsoCom intercom. That device has no music input > jack. Since the device fits nicely into a hole in my panel, I really > dont wish to change it. > > If I were to purchase a Garmin 396 and thereby have XM radio capability, > is there a 'reasonable' way to introduce that into my intercom system? > Since I fly alone most of the time, even if it were just available to my > headset (a Peltor noice cancelling one), that would be > satisfactory....but having that available to both headsets would > definitely be better. > > Any thoughts? > > Tony Marshall > RV6 > Polson, MT ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:55 AM PST US From: "Wayne Sweet" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: RE: Electronic Ignition Problem --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Wayne Sweet" I have a similar setup, only using LSE's CDI system. I have a 7.5 AH backup battery which I use to fire the #1 CDI during startup and to power #1 in the event of lost main bus power. I also have installed a second voltmeter which can be selected to monitor either main bus or backup voltage. During startup, the main bus voltage drops to between 8 and 9 volts. This has been reported to be a problem with CDI systems; the details as to why I don't recall: perhaps the CDI gets confused or drops off-line. Once before using the backup for powering the #1, I did get a kick back. Since then no problems. Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" Subject: AeroElectric-List: RE: Electronic Ignition Problem > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" > > > Mike, > > Your point is quite valid, but I've physically checked the battery and > ignition ground connections multiple times.. I'll run a test this weekend > and see what kind of voltage drop occurs between the battery ground lead, > and the ignition ground lead (with a digital storage scope) during the > engine start sequence.. I don't expect to see more than a few Millivolts. > I'm wondering if the firewall ground feed thru bolt, which carries the > starter current, isn't the problem. The Aux battery (that powers just the > ignitions) is also connected to this feed thru bolt. It's the common > ground > to the firewall for the ignition modules. If there is a voltage drop in > this > 5/16 X 24 brass bolt, it would certainly explain the problem. Not likely, > but certainly worth exploring. > It might also be a better idea to ground the Aux battery to another > firewall point..... We'll see this weekend... > > > Fred Stucklen > RV-6A N926RV > > > Time: 08:53:28 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: > Electronic > Ignition Problem > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mike" > > Fred, > > I have the Plasma III electronic ignition in my airplane, but it > sounds > to me that your system has a bad ground setup, or you ignition system > is > not automatically retarding the timing for starting. With electronic > ignition systems working properly the plane should start on the first > or > second blade if the engine is tuned properly. I have test flown 6 > airplanes with electronic ignition systems and they all (after > tuning)ran like Swiss watches and started on the first two blades and > at > very low throttle settings (700rpm). You should be able to get the > airplane to start like a car if everything is set up correctly. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Electronic Ignition Problem > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Stucklen, Frederic W > UTPWR" > > Bill, > > Interesting, I have a similar setup. I always start the engine with > the > ignition on a separate, isolated battery. I don't get a kickback, but > it > just doesn't start well. I've even tried different mixtures during > startup > (to the extent of flooding the engine). Some listers have indicated > that > the > starter may be turning the engine over too fast for the ignition > during > startup. I have a SkyTec starter. What are you using? > > Fred Stucklen > RV-6A N926RV > > > Fred - > I installed dual Electroair ignitions in my Lancair 320 ten > years > ago > and > have never experienced a problem with them, with the exception > of > a > few > rare instances of engine kickback during starting...NOT a good > thing. > To > the credit of my SkyTec starter, it has endured a dozen or more > instances > of these kickbacks. > I spoke with the SkyTec's engineer/owner and he told me the > problem > was > that the Electroair ignition can lose timing during starting > should > the > voltage drop sufficiently low, as would be the case with a weak > battery. I > remembered that the kickbacks had always occurred late in the > life > of > the > three or four batteries I've gone through ( I know, three or > four > batteries > in ten years is excessive, but I now use a battery minder to > maintain > them > during periods of inactivity and they should now last their > full > five > to > six year life) > I have an all electric installation (no vacuum pump) with Main > and > Backup > batteries. The Backup battery is charged from the Main bus, but > is > otherwise isolated, unless I switch to backup power, in which > case > it's > dedicated to the electronic iginition. I now switch to backup > power > prior > to starting and the ignition receives full voltage. I've never > experienced > a kickback problem since. > > Bill Rumburg > N403WR > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:19 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help From: "Mark R Steitle" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" Mark, I have a similar setup as you (3-rotor tractor). If you haven't already done so, I recommend you supply the fuel pumps with cool air to reduce the chances of vapor-lock. I originally had my efi pumps on the engine side of the firewall, but have since moved them to the floor of the cabin just after the selector valve. Lower is better in this instance. There has been lots of discussion on fuel systems on the Fly Rotary group. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark R. Supinski Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski" Hello all- I'm having some problems physically laying out Z-19 for my Mustang 2 powered by a Mazda 13B rotary engine. One of my goals is to have all the fuse blocks located within reach of the pilot. On the Mustang 2, the only location for this is against the port wall, essentially next to the pilot's knees. A consequence of this is that the wire runs from the main battery bus and the engine battery bus to the Main and Engine battery contactors is much more than 6 inches -- in fact, it is 48 inches. http://www.supinski.net/topview.jpg shows this. While I could relocate the main and engine bus fuse blocks forward of the firewall, I would prefer to not to do this. My dual redundant ECUs want to be located in the cockpit area (not forward of the firewall as in a car) so I prefer to keep the fuse block in the same neighborhood as well. Presumably I could increase the size of the wire used for each (currently 12awg) to make up for extra length. Am I asking for trouble doing this? Should I simply relocate the blocks & be done with it? Next is the physical location to install the main, engine, and starter contactors. http://www.supinski.net/frontview.jpg shows my proposed install. My goal here is to keep all the electrical components on the "cool" side of the engine. Rotarys run way-hot & I figure the less I have on the exhaust side, the happier I'll be. If I have to move the fuse blocks from above, then I start having problems locating the spark igniters (4, not shown on the drawing). In general, I am suffering from not enough real-life examples of actual component layouts to emulate. Everyone around here has by-the-book Lycoming layouts; not an EFI system to be found. Sage advice welcome & greatfully accepted... Thanks, Mark Supinski ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:34 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Actually I would go one stage further and put the fuel pumps inside the cabin or even better in the wing roots. To me using a blast tube and cool box on the firewall is trying to treat the symptom of the disease...You might feel better but it may still kill you...:) Note the Eggenfelner Subaru had the setup you describe....but changed it to move the pumps inside on the cabin floor after they had a vapour lock incident on takeoff that resulted in a crash. Lycomings have engine driven pumps because they are intended for 100LL use that normally has a lower vapour pressure than autofuel and electric fuel pumps of the past were not trusted, relying on mechanical pumps that were thought to be safer. In todays world, modern electric fuel pumps are used on all modern cars and look where they put the pump either in the tank or right next to it at the lowest point of the system. There is a very good reason for this...I.e sucking on a high vapour pressure liquid is asking for vapour lock....If the temperature of the liquid (fuel) is allowed to rise the VP gets higher, When the amount of pump suck equals the VP of the fuel it will boil and your pump will quit immeditaly. My advice would be if you are using electric pumps then put them in the "hydraulically correct" place...I.e low and as close (hydraulically speaking) to the tanks as possible. This means a 3/8ths feedline to the pump that is as short as possible. If you are using an EFI pump you'll need a filter before the pump so get the largest one possible and change it after say 5 hours on the new airplane and again at say 20 hours then yearly after that. In my RV7a (eventualy intended for autofuel use) I have an EFI pump in each wing root....Both pumps will run on takeoff and landing. To switch tanks I simply turn the apporpriate pump on/off...I have a carbureted low wing plane now with the same setup...works sweet. Even better, if a pump quits on takeoff you won't even know 'cus the other one will merrily continue to pump fuel. The FI setup I have uses a pressure relief valve for each pump in the wing root also together with a non return valve to prevent cross transfer between the wing tanks. I today see many a fuel pump mounted up on the firewall on a low wing plane and the owner is ablivious to the dangers...It has resulted in a number of bent aircraft. I don't like presurised fuel in the cockpit either but I'd rather have it and not have to worry about the engine continuing to run on take off on a hot day. My two cents of course Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark R Steitle Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" --> Mark, I have a similar setup as you (3-rotor tractor). If you haven't already done so, I recommend you supply the fuel pumps with cool air to reduce the chances of vapor-lock. I originally had my efi pumps on the engine side of the firewall, but have since moved them to the floor of the cabin just after the selector valve. Lower is better in this instance. There has been lots of discussion on fuel systems on the Fly Rotary group. -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark R. Supinski Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski" Hello all- I'm having some problems physically laying out Z-19 for my Mustang 2 powered by a Mazda 13B rotary engine. One of my goals is to have all the fuse blocks located within reach of the pilot. On the Mustang 2, the only location for this is against the port wall, essentially next to the pilot's knees. A consequence of this is that the wire runs from the main battery bus and the engine battery bus to the Main and Engine battery contactors is much more than 6 inches -- in fact, it is 48 inches. http://www.supinski.net/topview.jpg shows this. While I could relocate the main and engine bus fuse blocks forward of the firewall, I would prefer to not to do this. My dual redundant ECUs want to be located in the cockpit area (not forward of the firewall as in a car) so I prefer to keep the fuse block in the same neighborhood as well. Presumably I could increase the size of the wire used for each (currently 12awg) to make up for extra length. Am I asking for trouble doing this? Should I simply relocate the blocks & be done with it? Next is the physical location to install the main, engine, and starter contactors. http://www.supinski.net/frontview.jpg shows my proposed install. My goal here is to keep all the electrical components on the "cool" side of the engine. Rotarys run way-hot & I figure the less I have on the exhaust side, the happier I'll be. If I have to move the fuse blocks from above, then I start having problems locating the spark igniters (4, not shown on the drawing). In general, I am suffering from not enough real-life examples of actual component layouts to emulate. Everyone around here has by-the-book Lycoming layouts; not an EFI system to be found. Sage advice welcome & greatfully accepted... Thanks, Mark Supinski ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:05 AM PST US From: "Mark R. Supinski" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski" I will be running cooling air onto that area of the firewall -- I plan on running SCAT tubing from a cheek intake & blowing it down onto the batteries & fuel pumps to address exactly the concern you are highlighting. With respect to fuel pump location, the M2's main fuel tank is (essentially) a giant header tank located right behind the instrument panel. In their current location, the fuel pumps are almost a foot lower than the sump from the tank -- I expect very positive priming from this, since there is no "sucking" going on. I have never found the fly rotary list -- got a link? Still need folks input on the original questions! Bob? Someone? Help! Mark Supinski On 11/2/05, Mark R Steitle wrote: > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" > > > Mark, > I have a similar setup as you (3-rotor tractor). If you haven't already > done so, I recommend you supply the fuel pumps with cool air to reduce > the chances of vapor-lock. I originally had my efi pumps on the engine > side of the firewall, but have since moved them to the floor of the > cabin just after the selector valve. Lower is better in this instance. > There has been lots of discussion on fuel systems on the Fly Rotary > group. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark > R. Supinski > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski" > > > Hello all- > > I'm having some problems physically laying out Z-19 for my Mustang 2 > powered > by a Mazda 13B rotary engine. > > One of my goals is to have all the fuse blocks located within reach of > the > pilot. On the Mustang 2, the only location for this is against the port > wall, essentially next to the pilot's knees. A consequence of this is > that > the wire runs from the main battery bus and the engine battery bus to > the > Main and Engine battery contactors is much more than 6 inches -- in > fact, it > is 48 inches. http://www.supinski.net/topview.jpg shows this. > > While I could relocate the main and engine bus fuse blocks forward of > the > firewall, I would prefer to not to do this. My dual redundant ECUs want > to > be located in the cockpit area (not forward of the firewall as in a car) > so > I prefer to keep the fuse block in the same neighborhood as well. > Presumably > I could increase the size of the wire used for each (currently 12awg) to > make up for extra length. Am I asking for trouble doing this? Should I > simply relocate the blocks & be done with it? > > Next is the physical location to install the main, engine, and starter > contactors. http://www.supinski.net/frontview.jpg shows my proposed > install. > My goal here is to keep all the electrical components on the "cool" side > of > the engine. Rotarys run way-hot & I figure the less I have on the > exhaust > side, the happier I'll be. If I have to move the fuse blocks from above, > then I start having problems locating the spark igniters (4, not shown > on > the drawing). In general, I am suffering from not enough real-life > examples > of actual component layouts to emulate. Everyone around here has > by-the-book > Lycoming layouts; not an EFI system to be found. > > Sage advice welcome & greatfully accepted... > > Thanks, > > Mark Supinski > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:05 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help From: "Mark R Steitle" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" Try www.flyrotary.com I have never found the fly rotary list -- got a link? Mark Supinski ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:39 AM PST US From: "Mark R. Supinski" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski" Unfortunately, I don't have much choice on fuel pump location. Due to the M2 design with the 25 gal. tank behind the instrument panel, I don't have *any* usable firewall real estate on the cabin-side of the firewall. The tank abuts the upper half of the firewall, and the rudder pedals abut the lower half. The current design has (max) 36" of fuel line between the tank sump and the fuel pumps. There is appx 12" of "head" in the design (tank sump higher than fuel pumps). The plans-built M2 does not store fuel in the wings. ...Still looking for some comment on the electrical characteristics of this design... Mark Supinski On 11/2/05, Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > > Actually I would go one stage further and put the fuel pumps inside the > cabin or even better in the wing roots. > > To me using a blast tube and cool box on the firewall is trying to treat > the symptom of the disease...You might feel better but it may still kill > you...:) > > Note the Eggenfelner Subaru had the setup you describe....but changed it > to move the pumps inside on the cabin floor after they had a vapour > lock incident on takeoff that resulted in a crash. > > Lycomings have engine driven pumps because they are intended for 100LL > use that normally has a lower vapour pressure than autofuel and electric > fuel pumps of the past were not trusted, relying on mechanical pumps > that were thought to be safer. In todays world, modern electric fuel > pumps are used on all modern cars and look where they put the pump > either in the tank or right next to it at the lowest point of the > system. > > There is a very good reason for this...I.e sucking on a high vapour > pressure liquid is asking for vapour lock....If the temperature of the > liquid (fuel) is allowed to rise the VP gets higher, When the amount of > pump suck equals the VP of the fuel it will boil and your pump will quit > immeditaly. > > My advice would be if you are using electric pumps then put them in the > "hydraulically correct" place...I.e low and as close (hydraulically > speaking) to the tanks as possible. This means a 3/8ths feedline to the > pump that is as short as possible. If you are using an EFI pump you'll > need a filter before the pump so get the largest one possible and change > it after say 5 hours on the new airplane and again at say 20 hours then > yearly after that. > > In my RV7a (eventualy intended for autofuel use) I have an EFI pump in > each wing root....Both pumps will run on takeoff and landing. To switch > tanks I simply turn the apporpriate pump on/off...I have a carbureted > low wing plane now with the same setup...works sweet. Even better, if a > pump quits on takeoff you won't even know 'cus the other one will > merrily continue to pump fuel. The FI setup I have uses a pressure > relief valve for each pump in the wing root also together with a non > return valve to prevent cross transfer between the wing tanks. > > I today see many a fuel pump mounted up on the firewall on a low wing > plane and the owner is ablivious to the dangers...It has resulted in a > number of bent aircraft. I don't like presurised fuel in the cockpit > either but I'd rather have it and not have to worry about the engine > continuing to run on take off on a hot day. > > My two cents of course > > Frank > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark > R Steitle > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" > --> > > Mark, > I have a similar setup as you (3-rotor tractor). If you haven't already > done so, I recommend you supply the fuel pumps with cool air to reduce > the chances of vapor-lock. I originally had my efi pumps on the engine > side of the firewall, but have since moved them to the floor of the > cabin just after the selector valve. Lower is better in this instance. > There has been lots of discussion on fuel systems on the Fly Rotary > group. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark > R. Supinski > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski" > > > Hello all- > > I'm having some problems physically laying out Z-19 for my Mustang 2 > powered by a Mazda 13B rotary engine. > > One of my goals is to have all the fuse blocks located within reach of > the pilot. On the Mustang 2, the only location for this is against the > port wall, essentially next to the pilot's knees. A consequence of this > is that the wire runs from the main battery bus and the engine battery > bus to the Main and Engine battery contactors is much more than 6 inches > -- in fact, it is 48 inches. http://www.supinski.net/topview.jpg shows > this. > > While I could relocate the main and engine bus fuse blocks forward of > the firewall, I would prefer to not to do this. My dual redundant ECUs > want to be located in the cockpit area (not forward of the firewall as > in a car) so I prefer to keep the fuse block in the same neighborhood as > well. > Presumably > I could increase the size of the wire used for each (currently 12awg) to > make up for extra length. Am I asking for trouble doing this? Should I > simply relocate the blocks & be done with it? > > Next is the physical location to install the main, engine, and starter > contactors. http://www.supinski.net/frontview.jpg shows my proposed > install. > My goal here is to keep all the electrical components on the "cool" side > of the engine. Rotarys run way-hot & I figure the less I have on the > exhaust side, the happier I'll be. If I have to move the fuse blocks > from above, then I start having problems locating the spark igniters (4, > not shown on the drawing). In general, I am suffering from not enough > real-life examples of actual component layouts to emulate. Everyone > around here has by-the-book Lycoming layouts; not an EFI system to be > found. > > Sage advice welcome & greatfully accepted... > > Thanks, > > Mark Supinski > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:21 AM PST US From: "Ted D. Hultzapple" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Charging two batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ted D. Hultzapple" Guys, I have a motorglider with two batteries, a 17ah. for the starter and engine electrics, and a 7.2 ah. for the avionics. The batteries are on separate circuits, so I have to charge them separately. I think both batteries are sealed lead acid. Is it o.k. to charge the batteries in parallel or do they have to be isolated with diodes? I was thinking of using a plug to charge both batteries at the same time but would separate the circuits when I removed the charger. Thanks Ted ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:10 AM PST US From: pfsiegel Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re E-bus alternate feed --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: pfsiegel Bob et al, Thanks for taking interest in my question. I am using a modified version of your Z-14 dual battery, dual alternator split bus scheme. I started out with the best intentions of keeping the e-bus load to the bare minimums. But... My nav-com will come from a Garmin 430 which has GPS as well as VOR/localizer/ glide slope. Of course I included panel lights. My horizon information comes from a Grand Rapids EFIS system. Since I don't have a directional gyro in my all electric panel, the heading information comes from the True Track digital autopilot. If I have a copilot in the back seat of my F1 Evo (tapered wing version of the Harmon Rocket) I'd want to communicate in an emergency, so I included the audio panel/intercom. And I know you don't suggest it, but I left the transponder on the E-bus too. That is how I ended up with so much load on my e-bus. I'm not too worried about the high load because I have the backup alternator and backup battery. My real question is how to protect my alternate feeds from the always hot battery busses? The switch to select alternate feed is a 20 amp circuitbreaker switch. But that still leaves the wire from the always hot bus to the circuit breaker switch unprotected. I have considered placing an inline fuse or possibly a current limiter right at the always hot bus in the wire path of the wire to the circuit breaker switch. One drawback is that I cannot "turn off" power in the wire that goes to the circuit breaker switch, which of course I could do with a relay used right at the always hot battery bus. The primary reason for the always hot bus is to have a bullet proof supply the electronic ignition. I sure appreciate your thoughts on this matter! Paul ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:38 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help From: "Matt Prather" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" Hi Mark, I wonder why it is one of your design goals to locate the fuse blocks where they can distract... uh.. be accessed during flight? There have been many discussions about this topic.. Viewable in the archives. The short answer is to design the electrical system so that it is fault tolerant - failure of any single component doesn't require debugging/repair while in flight. Regards, Matt- do not archive > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski" > > > Hello all- > > I'm having some problems physically laying out Z-19 for my Mustang 2 > powered by a Mazda 13B rotary engine. > > One of my goals is to have all the fuse blocks located within reach of > the pilot. On the Mustang 2, the only location for this is against the > port wall, essentially next to the pilot's knees. A consequence of this > is that the wire runs from the main battery bus and the engine battery > bus to the Main and Engine battery contactors is much more than 6 inches > -- in fact, it is 48 inches. http://www.supinski.net/topview.jpg shows > this. > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:33 AM PST US From: "Jim Stone" Subject: AeroElectric-List: com ant --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" My Gamin transponder says to avoid mounting the antennae within three feet of a comm antennae. I have the bent whip style comm ant and was wondering if the 3 foot is measured from the transponder ant (ball), to the tip of the comm ant or the base of the comm ant. Thanks in advance, Jim ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:59 AM PST US From: "Jim Stone" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: re: ElectroAir! --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" I did a google search for "Champion terminus kits" nothing of interest came up. What the heck are these things? Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denis Walsh" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: re: ElectroAir! > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Denis Walsh > > > Ron a 300rpm drop is a pretty good sign you are missing a cylinder > on a four cyl engine . Check also the lead for the missing > cylinder, including both the end at the coil and the one at the > plug. ends. If there is a separation it will cause the same > symptom. Also fouled plug, broken plug, etc. Any old timer can show > you how to find the cold cylinder after running a brief period with > it missing. > > I have had very good service with my slick mag, but also love my > electroair. I have had problems over the eight years I've been > running it with the terminuses (termini?). I highly recommend you > check out getting a set of Champion terminus kits and use REM 37BY > plugs. On the coil end you can use the auto push on nipple things. > > Hope this helps and good luck. > > > Denis Walsh > > On Nov 2, 2005, at 6:34 AM, Ron Brown wrote: > >> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron Brown" >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: brucebell74 [mailto:brucebell74@sbcglobal.net] >>> Subject: ElectoAir! >>> >>> Hi Fred, >>> I have two ElectroAir Ignition Systems on my IO320. Not flown yet but >>> tracking down an excessive RPM drop with one system off. What do >>> you get on >>> ground run up with one off. Mine drops about 300 RPM and runs very >>> rough. I >>> was looking for something about 50 RPM drop. The local engine guru >>> suggest >>> I >>> switch some wires on the modules and see what happens. He did a >>> visual >>> check >>> on it and it looks good. What sort of drop do you get on ground >>> checks? I >>> will switch plug wires tomorrow. I am looking at dual mags! >>> Best regards, >>> Bruce Bell >>> Lubbock, Texas >>> RV-4 Ser # 2888 N23BB (Used my VAL COM yesterday for the first >>> time with >>> Lubbock Ground and was " loud and clear"! >> >> You need to check and make sure you don't have a bad spark plug. I >> had the >> same problem on the initial start of my Lycoming IO360. If you >> have an EIS >> or other EGT monitor, watch all 4 EGT's during the RPM drop. If >> one of the >> plugs on that ElectroAir is bad, the EGT will drop during the >> test. Move >> that plug to another cylinder to verify it is the plug and not a >> wire. I >> replaced the defective new plug and it has been running sweet for >> the past >> 190 hours. >> >> I like the Jeff Rose ElectroAir VERY much. Don't replace them with >> mags - >> you'll be sorry! (In fact I have been having a problem with my >> Slick mag - >> the timing will advance itself over time. A thorough inspection found >> nothing wrong. I have reset it twice already.) >> >> Re the kick back, I always delay turning the ElectroAir on until >> the engine >> has turned over for a second or two. I have never had a kick >> back. I have >> a single battery. >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:38 AM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" I had a longer run than 6 inches too. What I did was to size the cable to feed the main and battery busses as I normally would (I have 12Ga feeding the batt buss and 2*12GA wires feeding the main buss...each about 2 ft long). I then used a fusable link at the source (contactor for the main buss and battery for the batt buss) of 16GA wire about 4 inches long each. In other words I still effectively have the short piece of thin wire that would burn up in the event of a major short...God forbid. While I was at it I took a seperate wire directly from the battery to feed the second fuel pump...I think I used an 18Ga, also with a short length of 22Ga for the fuse link. The advantage with this approach is I could put the fuse blocks wherever I want. I also took the precaution of protecting these main feeds with a continuous lentgh of 1/4" PFA tubing. Frank -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mark R. Supinski Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski" --> Unfortunately, I don't have much choice on fuel pump location. Due to the M2 design with the 25 gal. tank behind the instrument panel, I don't have *any* usable firewall real estate on the cabin-side of the firewall. The tank abuts the upper half of the firewall, and the rudder pedals abut the lower half. The current design has (max) 36" of fuel line between the tank sump and the fuel pumps. There is appx 12" of "head" in the design (tank sump higher than fuel pumps). The plans-built M2 does not store fuel in the wings. ...Still looking for some comment on the electrical characteristics of this design... ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:34 AM PST US From: "Mark R. Supinski" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski" Hello Matt- Yes, there is some of that in there. I selected Z-19 for the redundancy it offers, but can't quite bring myself to totally move all the fuse blocks to some obscure location. The M2 doesn't help -- there are very few areas in the cabin area to begin with. The location selected is a compromise to make ground maintenance relatively easy, and in-flight access at least possible even if it should never be required. I may have to throw in the towel on the main and engine buses and just move them to next to the batteries. Doing so would make mounting the ECUs easier.. As for the igniters... oh well, I'll find someplace for them to go... Mark On 11/2/05, Matt Prather wrote: > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Matt Prather" > > > Hi Mark, > > I wonder why it is one of your design goals to locate the fuse blocks > where they can distract... uh.. be accessed during flight? There have > been many discussions about this topic.. Viewable in the archives. The > short answer is to design the electrical system so that it is fault > tolerant - failure of any single component doesn't require > debugging/repair while in flight. > > > Regards, > > Matt- > do not archive > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R. Supinski" > > > > > > Hello all- > > > > I'm having some problems physically laying out Z-19 for my Mustang 2 > > powered by a Mazda 13B rotary engine. > > > > One of my goals is to have all the fuse blocks located within reach of > > the pilot. On the Mustang 2, the only location for this is against the > > port wall, essentially next to the pilot's knees. A consequence of this > > is that the wire runs from the main battery bus and the engine battery > > bus to the Main and Engine battery contactors is much more than 6 inches > > -- in fact, it is 48 inches. http://www.supinski.net/topview.jpg shows > > this. > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:16 AM PST US From: Steve Ruse Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charging two batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Ruse I would recommend that you charge them separately. Charging them in parallel will result in one battery being charged before the other, but a charging voltage will be maintained on that battery until the 2nd battery is done charging & the charger shuts down. One battery will likely overcharge every time, and its life might be shortened, if it doesn't leak or explode. I've seen this become a problem even when the batteries were the same size. I would also recommend that even a single battery not be left unattended in the plane while charging. The chance of a leak or fire scares me too much. Just my two cents. Steve Ruse Quoting "Ted D. Hultzapple" : > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ted D. Hultzapple" > > > Guys, I have a motorglider with two batteries, a 17ah. for the starter and > engine electrics, and a 7.2 ah. for the avionics. The batteries are on > separate circuits, so I have to charge them separately. I think both > batteries are sealed lead acid. Is it o.k. to charge the batteries in > parallel or do they have to be isolated with diodes? I was thinking of > using a plug to charge both batteries at the same time but would separate > the circuits when I removed the charger. > Thanks > Ted ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:36 AM PST US From: Sean Stephens Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re E-bus alternate feed --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Sean Stephens Check out this archived message... There's a reference to the following sketch... -Sean pfsiegel wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: pfsiegel > > Bob et al, > > Thanks for taking interest in my question. > > I am using a modified version of your Z-14 dual battery, dual alternator > split bus scheme. > > > I started out with the best intentions of keeping the e-bus load to the > bare minimums. But... > > My nav-com will come from a Garmin 430 which has GPS as well as > VOR/localizer/ glide slope. > > Of course I included panel lights. > > My horizon information comes from a Grand Rapids EFIS system. > > Since I don't have a directional gyro in my all electric panel, the > heading information comes from the True Track digital autopilot. > > If I have a copilot in the back seat of my F1 Evo (tapered wing version > of the Harmon Rocket) I'd want to communicate in an emergency, so I > included the audio panel/intercom. > > And I know you don't suggest it, but I left the transponder on the E-bus > too. > > That is how I ended up with so much load on my e-bus. I'm not too > worried about the high load because I have the backup alternator and > backup battery. > > My real question is how to protect my alternate feeds from the always > hot battery busses? > > The switch to select alternate feed is a 20 amp circuitbreaker switch. > But that still leaves the wire from the always hot bus to the circuit > breaker switch unprotected. > > I have considered placing an inline fuse or possibly a current limiter > right at the always hot bus in the wire path of the wire to the circuit > breaker switch. > > One drawback is that I cannot "turn off" power in the wire that goes to > the circuit breaker switch, which of course I could do with a relay used > right at the always hot battery bus. > > The primary reason for the always hot bus is to have a bullet proof > supply the electronic ignition. > > I sure appreciate your thoughts on this matter! > > Paul > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:10 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charging two batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:30 PM 11/2/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ted D. Hultzapple" > > >Guys, I have a motorglider with two batteries, a 17ah. for the starter and >engine electrics, and a 7.2 ah. for the avionics. The batteries are on >separate circuits, so I have to charge them separately. I think both >batteries are sealed lead acid. Is it o.k. to charge the batteries in >parallel or do they have to be isolated with diodes? I was thinking of >using a plug to charge both batteries at the same time but would separate >the circuits when I removed the charger. Each battery needs a separate disconnect switch, relay, contactor. While the alternator is operating, you can have as many batteries as you wish all tied together through their various closed disconnect device (See Z-figures for multiple battery applications). When the ACTIVE NOTIFICATI0N OF LOW VOLTAGE warning comes on, you separate each battery off to its own task by repositioning the disconnect devices. If you're talking about ground maintenance charging, you could arrange a charging connector with a ground pin and separate, fused leads to each of the batteries. For two batteries, you need three pins. Have the mating connector for the charger harness common the two batteries together while the charger is plugged in. As I write these words, there are 5 SVLA instrumentation batteries ranging from 17 a.h. to 32 a.h. all paralleled and all being supported on a single Battery Tender Junior. See: http://batterytender.com/default.php?cPath=11_3 Search Ebay for "battery tender" junior for some volume dealer pricing of these products. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:18:44 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charging two batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 02:03 PM 11/2/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Ruse > >I would recommend that you charge them separately. Charging them in parallel >will result in one battery being charged before the other, but a charging >voltage will be maintained on that battery until the 2nd battery is done >charging & the charger shuts down. One battery will likely overcharge every >time, and its life might be shortened, if it doesn't leak or explode. These concerns are borne of decades of urban legend and hangar myths. SVLA batteries are not subject to leaking, exploding or any sort of overstress or hazard because one battery achieves full charge before the other(s) achieve full charge. >I've seen this become a problem even when the batteries were the same size. I >would also recommend that even a single battery not be left unattended in the >plane while charging. The chance of a leak or fire scares me too much. There are chargers and then there are CHARGERS. It's so inexpensive to acquire and utilize a real charger for battery storage and maintenance that there's no real excuse for not doing it. I don't think Walmart has a single charger on the shelf these days that cannot be left connected and plugged in indefinitely. I've supplied about a half dozen members of my family with smart chargers and we have three or four of them in use in our shop. But in any case, concerns about leaks and fires on SVLA batteries due to charging issues are not founded in the physics of how these critters behave. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:41 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: com ant --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:42 PM 11/2/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" > >My Gamin transponder says to avoid mounting the antennae within three feet >of a comm antennae. I have the bent whip style comm ant and was wondering >if the 3 foot is measured from the transponder ant (ball), to the tip of >the comm ant or the base of the comm ant. >Thanks in advance, Pick the one that's most attractive to you . . . it will be fine. That "3-foot" number has more to do with CYA than real engineering concerns. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:22:49 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re E-bus alternate feed --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 12:31 PM 11/2/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: pfsiegel > > Bob et al, > >Thanks for taking interest in my question. > >I am using a modified version of your Z-14 dual battery, dual alternator >split bus scheme. Okay, if you have Z-14, why do you have an e-bus? The whole purpose of the Z-14 architecture was to eliminate the need for an e-bus. >I started out with the best intentions of keeping the e-bus load to the >bare minimums. But... > >My nav-com will come from a Garmin 430 which has GPS as well as >VOR/localizer/ glide slope. > >Of course I included panel lights. > >My horizon information comes from a Grand Rapids EFIS system. > >Since I don't have a directional gyro in my all electric panel, the >heading information comes from the True Track digital autopilot. > >If I have a copilot in the back seat of my F1 Evo (tapered wing version >of the Harmon Rocket) I'd want to communicate in an emergency, so I >included the audio panel/intercom. > >And I know you don't suggest it, but I left the transponder on the E-bus >too. > >That is how I ended up with so much load on my e-bus. I'm not too >worried about the high load because I have the backup alternator and >backup battery. > >My real question is how to protect my alternate feeds from the always >hot battery busses? The best way to protect alternate feeds in Z-14 is to take them out. They add no value and as you've discovered, create new system design and integration concerns. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:49 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Ammeter shunt wiring, Part II --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" At 08:56 PM 11/1/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark Neubauer" > >The ammeters (2 of them) were purchased from Van's, I presume they are >analog, and 50 mA rating if I remember correctly. They were wired just like >that shown in Aeroelectric Connection (in the alternator output line). The >shunts were purchased from B&C (It's been 2 years since they were wired) One >is connected to show current flow from alt#1 (a B&C externally regulated >unit), the other from alt#2 (an SD-8); no switching is therefore needed for >individual readings. > >Bob, you ask if these are electronic ammeters. What other kind of ammeter is >there besides electronic? There are ammeters . . . electro-mechanical things with springs, pointers, coils of wire and then there are electronic displays architectured and scaled to display amps when reading the voltage drop across an ammeter shunt. Electronic displays have vulnerabilities to external stimulus that is not shared by real ammeters. The symptoms you describe really raise some questions about correct wiring of the instruments. The ammeter reading voltage drop across a shunt is about as bullet-proof as you can get when correctly wired. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:07 PM PST US Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Charging two batteries From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" Just bought one for $24 plus shipping off EBAY...My little harbor freight charger was still about .25V low for a continuous trickle to my Odyssey battery even after 2 days. Thanks...Spend the money do the right thing and forget about it!...:) Frank Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charging two batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" --> At 02:03 PM 11/2/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Ruse >--> > >I would recommend that you charge them separately. Charging them in >parallel will result in one battery being charged before the other, but >a charging voltage will be maintained on that battery until the 2nd >battery is done charging & the charger shuts down. One battery will >likely overcharge every time, and its life might be shortened, if it doesn't leak or explode. These concerns are borne of decades of urban legend and hangar myths. SVLA batteries are not subject to leaking, exploding or any sort of overstress or hazard because one battery achieves full charge before the other(s) achieve full charge. >I've seen this become a problem even when the batteries were the same >size. I would also recommend that even a single battery not be left >unattended in the plane while charging. The chance of a leak or fire scares me too much. There are chargers and then there are CHARGERS. It's so inexpensive to acquire and utilize a real charger for battery storage and maintenance that there's no real excuse for not doing it. I don't think Walmart has a single charger on the shelf these days that cannot be left connected and plugged in indefinitely. I've supplied about a half dozen members of my family with smart chargers and we have three or four of them in use in our shop. But in any case, concerns about leaks and fires on SVLA batteries due to charging issues are not founded in the physics of how these critters behave. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:51 PM PST US From: Robert Dufresne Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Robert Dufresne Aircraft Rotary Engine Newsletter moderated by Paul Lamar ..... Who is Paul Lamar? ..... Want to join the Newsletter? http://www.rotaryeng.net/ try this site for a rotary newsletter Robert -----Message d'origine----- De: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Mark R Steitle Envoy: 2 novembre, 2005 11:44 : aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Objet: RE: AeroElectric-List: Z-19 Layout Help --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" Try www.flyrotary.com I have never found the fly rotary list -- got a link? Mark Supinski ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:12 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: shielded wire installation From: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com 11/02/2005 06:29:31 PM --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Erich_Weaver@URSCorp.com greetings Stupid questions from the electrically challenged: Recently received a strobe system from Creativ Air. The bundled wire supplied for the task includes a bare wire that I presume is associated with the surrounding thin foil shield. No instructions provided for the bare wire. Does it get connected to ground along with the normal insulated ground wire or just float unconnected? If connected to ground, does it matter whether just one end or both ends of it are connected? And exactly what am I actually protecting myself from here? Isnt shielding pretty limited in what it can do? One more: the provided individual strobe wires are 22 awg. Seemed small to me, but I believe thats good for 5 amps, and looking at the system specs and the wire chart, that should work for this system. But dont the strobe trigger wires have really high voltage, maybe even in the low thousands of volts? Isnt there a limit to the voltage a wire can carry as well as the amps? Should I be concerned?What say the list? Yes, I can e-mail Creativ Air, but Im betting the list will be faster. Heck, maybe someone else will benefit as well. thanks guys Erich Weaver ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:41 PM PST US From: Joe Dubner Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Charging two batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Joe Dubner On 02-Nov-05 14:37 Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis) wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" > > Just bought one for $24 plus shipping off EBAY...My little harbor > freight charger was still about .25V low for a continuous trickle to my > Odyssey battery even after 2 days. > > Thanks...Spend the money do the right thing and forget about it!...:) > > Frank The Harbor Freight "battery maintainer" is adjustable, you know. At least the old models were although a friend recently bought one that had a fixed voltage output. The unit is nothing more than a current-limited constant-voltage power supply using a 7805 regulator and a handful of discrete components. Adjusting it involves opening up the housing and tweaking a small pot while measuring the no-load output on an accurate voltmeter. 13.5 volts is about right IMO. Seems like a lot of value for about $10 on sale. -- Joe Joe Dubner Long-EZ 821RP Lewiston, ID http://www.nicon.org/chapter328/jd/ ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:31 PM PST US From: "Phil White" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-19 Layout Help --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Phil White" Mark: If you read Bob's book, he recommends that the fuse block not be accessible while airborne. Attempting to fix an electrical problem while flying is inviting trouble. The philosophy is to put a circuit breaker for the alternator Field on the panel, then hide the fuse block under the panel where you aren't tempted to get to it while flying. Several builders have mounted their fuse blocks on swing-down plates below the panel area, so it is easy to see and change fuses on the ground. Panel swings up out of the way for flight. You mention having a 13B in your Mustang. I haven't seen you post on the Rotary engine forum (Rotary motors in aircraft ). Where are you located? Phil RV-10 under construction with Mazda 20B to be installed