AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Sat 11/05/05


Total Messages Posted: 13



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:09 AM - Re: 28V Turn & Bank (Eric M. Jones)
     2. 06:57 AM - Re: Parts to build the OV protector (J. Mcculley)
     3. 07:13 AM - Re: Re: 28V Turn & Bank (Jerry Grimmonpre)
     4. 08:06 AM - Re: Parts to build the OV protector (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     5. 08:07 AM - Re: 28V Turn & Bank (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 08:26 AM - Re: Recommended chargers for Odyssey  (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     7. 08:53 AM - Repeatable Experiment: Risks to Deltran Battery Tender Jr. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     8. 09:50 AM - Re: Re: Re: Do Not Archive (Bill Schlatterer)
     9. 10:28 AM - Re: Repeatable Experiment: Risks to Deltran (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    10. 11:01 AM - Re: Re: Re: Do Not Archive (Mickey Coggins)
    11. 12:41 PM - Fw: 28v ind. in 14v airplane (Bristolsabre1@aol.com)
    12. 01:51 PM - Re: Re: Re: Do Not Archive (Eric M. Jones)
    13. 07:47 PM - Re: 28V Turn & Bank (Ken)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:09:34 AM PST US
    From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
    Subject: Re: 28V Turn & Bank
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron" rondefly@rtriano.com >Would it be possible to convert a 28V instrument to run on 12V, If so what >will it involve? Thanks Ron Triano Ron, Best method: 1) Put the 28V unit on eBay. Sell it. 2) Find a 12V unit on eBay. Buy it. Works like magic! Also works: http://www.astrodyne.com Good DC-DC converters for little money. And they deal in one's. ....Still this introduces a whiney little DC-DC converter into your electronics and may create some noise, adds weight, reduces reliability, etc. We all make these choices. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 (508) 764-2072


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:57:01 AM PST US
    From: "J. Mcculley" <mcculleyja@starpower.net>
    Subject: Re: Parts to build the OV protector
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley" <mcculleyja@starpower.net> Bob, I happen to have on hand several of the MBS4991 (also 4992) units and the schematic for use in the crowbar device. Is there any downside to building the crowbar with these units instead of the updated system shown at: http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Crowbar_OV_Protection/Crowbar_C.pdf Jim McCulley Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> (SNIP) >> Your looking at a very old version which utilized a part >> now obsolete. The latest version will be published later >> today or tomorrow. I've updated the schematics and BOM >> and thought I'd got them posted but an astute reader >> pointed out the error of that impression a couple of >> days ago. I'll try to get caught up this evening. (SNIP) > Bob . . .


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:13:59 AM PST US
    From: "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry@mc.net>
    Subject: Re: 28V Turn & Bank
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry@mc.net> For Eric Jones ... Thanks for the three sample pieces of copper coated aluminum (CCA). I'm impressed with the light weight and the tough insulation. If I use CCA from battery (behind the firewall) to starter (about 6 feet) Lycoming 360, can I go this distance with a cable smaller than #4? Jerry Grimmonpre'


    Message 4


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    Time: 08:06:27 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: Parts to build the OV protector
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 09:56 AM 11/5/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "J. Mcculley" ><mcculleyja@starpower.net> > >Bob, > >I happen to have on hand several of the MBS4991 (also 4992) units and >the schematic for use in the crowbar device. Is there any downside to >building the crowbar with these units instead of the updated system >shown at: > >http://aeroelectric.com/articles/Crowbar_OV_Protection/Crowbar_C.pdf Nope. That's the preferred, lowest parts count method. In fact, B&C uses that part to this day having purchased a life-time buy of the parts before the supply dried up. Bob . . .


    Message 5


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    Time: 08:07:50 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Re: 28V Turn & Bank
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> At 09:16 PM 11/4/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net> > >Have you tried it? I have one that seems to run just fine on 12 volts. >Slightly lower rpm and the current is not much different either. >Ken > >Ron wrote: But the motor does run slower. You may find that the instrument's calibration is decidedly different. The device might now be calibrated for a 5-6 minute turn instead of a 3 minute turn. Worth investigating while airborne. Bob . . .


    Message 6


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    Time: 08:26:32 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> batteries
    Subject: Re: Recommended chargers for Odyssey
    batteries --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> batteries At 05:29 PM 11/4/2005 -0700, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: John Huft <aflyer@lazy8.net> > > Recently, I hooked up a Deltran charger (the junior, 0.75 Amp) to my >wife's car, as I did all last winter. This time however, I left the hood >open, with the underhood light on. The light draws more than the charger >can source, so, when I returned a week later, the battery was dead. No >surprising. > >The surprise, though, was that the charger was also dead. I took it >apart, and saw that the output transistor, attached to a large heatsink, >was a TO-220 package. There was no sign of an internal fuse (there is >one in the battery lead, which was still good), so I assume there is a >solid state type current limit circuit in the base of the output >transistors. Having designed these circuits (I am assuming that it is >not a crowbar type, but just a cheapo limiter), I know that they work >well for momentary shorts, but if the short persists, the output >transistor has to dissipate the rated current (.75A) times the voltage >(14) totaling 10.5 Watts. The TO-220 package is usually a 5 Watt deal >even with the heatsink, so I am thinking that is what killed the >charger. I confess I have not tested anything...just returned the charger. > >Similarly, I would think a completely dead battery would present the >same situation to the charger. So, I am thinking maybe the problem is >not related to the battery at all, but rather to the charger???????? Great data point John. I just took one of my Deltran juniors and set it up on the bench with a capacitor and sufficient load to emulate a perpetually dead battery. Let's see what happens. These are "smart chargers" . . . they produce a much more sophisticated charging profile that could not be accomplished with a simple "limiter". See: http://batterytender.com/includes/languages/english/resources/Product_Info_BT_Junior.pdf If your autopsy didn't reveal a very high parts count, perhaps they've used a micro-controller to do the "smarts" . . . It's possible do dance very fancy footwork in the digital world at very low cost. I have a couple of products under development that will use the PIC12F675 microcontroller . . . http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/41190c.pdf This critter has a 10-bit a/d converter, reset generator and clock on on-board. Sells for about $1 in quantity. There's no good reason to do anything in discrete parts. Even $20 coffee makers are processor controlled. Your experience with an extraordinary stress on the Battery Tender is worth understanding. We'll see how my experiment goes and then if I kill the critter, I'll tear it apart and see what the autopsy reveals. Perhaps we can offer some good feedback to the folks at Deltran. Thanks for bringing your experience to the List. Bob . . .


    Message 7


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    Time: 08:53:34 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
    Subject: Repeatable Experiment: Risks to Deltran Battery Tender
    Jr. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> Question: Will the Deltran Battery Tender Jr. be at risk for long term connection to a battery that cannot be charged and/or has some fixed load across the battery that exceeds the rated output current of the charger? The experiment . . . Step 1: Connect Deltran Battery Tender Jr. across a 10 ohm resistor paralleled with a 10,000 uF capacitor. Plug in wall. Observation 1: Note that the Battery Tender does not come alive. Hypothesis A: Circuitry in the charger senses whether or not there is some semblance of a battery connected. Zero volts could be either a dead short or a battery that is totally trashed. The circuit is designed not to attempt a recharge cycle under these conditions. Step 2. Temporarily connect 12v battery across the load array. Observation 2: Charger's red light comes on indicating that it has gone to work. Step 3. Connect voltmeter across the load array. Observation 2: Voltmeter shows 10.2 volts across the load array. Deduction: 10.2v at 10 ohms is right at 1.0 amp. The Deltran Battery Tender Jr. is rated at 0.75A. Obviously, there are no features that limit current to the rated value. This initial test setup has already overloaded the device by 33%. Step 4. Wait. (Watch this space)


    Message 8


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    Time: 09:50:30 AM PST US
    From: "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Re: Do Not Archive
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net> Eric, what is the format of a Google query of the Autoelectric list directly from the browser ??? It seems like it was something like ---google:aeroelectic-list.com/????search subject??? Internet challenged in Arkansas Bill S 7a Ark (Do Not Archive) -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Re: Do Not Archive --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net> Thanks to the people who noted that the point was just not having to dig through too much irrelevancy in the archives. I agree. I just wanted to calm anyone from worrying about Matt's running out of room. It might be useful to employ the Google concept, or some way to see how many people ever look at a posting again. This is a pretty standard way of determining if a thing should be archived. The more an archived note gets called back up, the higher relevancy it has. I think Google may be a better archive search engine than what we have now. Try it the next time you need to search the archives. (Do Not Archive) Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 (508) 764-2072 Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say." (Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.)


    Message 9


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    Time: 10:28:30 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> Battery Tender Jr.
    Subject: Re: Repeatable Experiment: Risks to Deltran
    Battery Tender Jr. --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> Battery Tender Jr. At 10:53 AM 11/5/2005 -0600, you wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" ><nuckollsr@cox.net> > >Question: > >Will the Deltran Battery Tender Jr. be at risk for damage due to >long term connection to a battery that cannot be charged and/or >has some fixed load across the battery that exceeds the rated output >current of the charger? > >The experiment . . . > >Step 1: Connect Deltran Battery Tender Jr. across a 10 ohm resistor >paralleled with a 10,000 uF capacitor. Plug in wall. > >Observation 1: Note that the Battery Tender does not come alive. > >Hypothesis A: Circuitry in the charger senses whether or not >there is some semblance of a battery connected. Zero volts >could be either a dead short or a battery that is totally trashed. >The circuit is designed not to attempt a recharge cycle under >these conditions. > >Step 2. Temporarily connect 12v battery across the load array. > >Observation 2: Charger's red light comes on indicating that it >has gone to work. > >Step 3. Connect voltmeter across the load array. > >Observation 2: Voltmeter shows 10.2 volts across the load array. > >Deduction: 10.2v at 10 ohms is right at 1.0 amp. The Deltran Battery >Tender Jr. is rated at 0.75A. Obviously, there are no features that >limit current to the rated value. This initial test setup has already >overloaded the device by 33%. > >Step 4. Wait. Observation: After an hour of operation, the case, particularly next to the wall was pretty toasty. (Toasty: engineering term for operating temperatures between "warm to touch" and "starting to stink". The hottest surfaces were sides closest to the wall outlet. Step 5. Add thermocouple to hottest surface and continue testing Observation: 10 minutes after restart, case temperature is up to 65C. Step 6. Wait. (watch this space)


    Message 10


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    Time: 11:01:12 AM PST US
    From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
    Subject: Re: Re: Do Not Archive
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch> Hi Bill, Try something like this in the Google box: site:matronics.com aeroelectric-list "schlatterer" or as a direct link: http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Amatronics.com+aeroelectric-list+%22schlatterer%22 Key tricks are: site:matronics.com - tells google to only search on the matronics.com website aeroelectric-list - focuses google's attention to things on the site that have the string aeroelectric-list in them, most likely the aeroelectric list. "schlatterer" - this is the keyword we're looking for. Best regards, Mickey Bill Schlatterer wrote: > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net> > > Eric, what is the format of a Google query of the Autoelectric list directly > from the browser ??? It seems like it was something > like ---google:aeroelectic-list.com/????search subject??? > > Internet challenged in Arkansas > > Bill S > 7a Ark > > (Do Not Archive) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Eric > M. Jones > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Re: Do Not Archive > > > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" > <emjones@charter.net> > > Thanks to the people who noted that the point was just not having to dig > through too much irrelevancy in the archives. I agree. I just wanted to calm > anyone from worrying about Matt's running out of room. > > It might be useful to employ the Google concept, or some way to see how many > people ever look at a posting again. This is a pretty standard way of > determining if a thing should be archived. The more an archived note gets > called back up, the higher relevancy it has. I think Google may be a better > archive search engine than what we have now. > > Try it the next time you need to search the archives. > > (Do Not Archive) > > Regards, > Eric M. Jones > www.PerihelionDesign.com > 113 Brentwood Drive > Southbridge MA 01550-2705 > (508) 764-2072 > > Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say." > (Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.) > > -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing do not archive


    Message 11


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    Time: 12:41:52 PM PST US
    From: Bristolsabre1@aol.com
    Subject: Fwd: 28v ind. in 14v airplane
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Bristolsabre1@aol.com From: Bristolsabre1@aol.com Subject: 28v ind. in 14v airplane -------------------------------1131218542 I have a stbye att. ind from a HS 125-400 and it runs very well with a step up converter the size of a VHS casette. It puts out enough amps to run 3 instruments Was not too expensive either. Do not archive Tore Bristol -------------------------------1131218542 <META content"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" nameGENERATOR> <BODY idrole_body style"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY:=20Arial" bottomMargin7 leftMargin7 topMargin7 rightMargin7><FONT idrole_document faceArial color#000000 size2> I have a stbye att. ind from a HS 125-400 and it runs very well with a=20step up converter the size of a VHS casette. It puts out enough amps to run 3 instruments Was not too expensive either. Do not archive Tore Bristol -------------------------------1131218542--


    Message 12


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    Time: 01:51:28 PM PST US
    From: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net>
    Subject: Re: Re: Re: Do Not Archive
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Eric M. Jones" <emjones@charter.net> Mickey Coggins (mick-matronics@rv8.ch) --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch> >Hi Bill, >Try something like this in the Google box: >site:matronics.com aeroelectric-list "schlatterer" >or as a direct link: >http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Amatronics.com+aeroelectric-list+%22schlatterer%22 >Key tricks are: >site:matronics.com - tells google to only search on the >matronics.com website >aeroelectric-list - focuses google's attention to things on the site >that have the string aeroelectric-list in them, most likely the >aeroelectric list."schlatterer" - this is the keyword we're looking for. >Best regards,Mickey Bill, Mickey is right....however Google allows you to get the right answer even if you know much less about the fine points than Mickey--- Let's say I wanted to find that old post about how much a pound of airplane costs you over time. I know I used my name---- "Eric M. Jones" and I add the quotes so Google knows it is one phrase. Note that Google would find it anyway and doesn't care about capitalization either. I published on this list so I add "aeroelectric-list" . Again I add the quotes because the hyphen is ignored by Google so that is really two words. As above...it doesn't much matter. and I remember a phrase I used, "worth of a pound" ---but I want to show you that Google will find it with or without the quotes so I'll leave them out.....okay it takes a sever millisecond longer without the quotes. As above...it doesn't much matter. So we Google the following: "aeroelectric-list" "eric m. Jones" worth of a pound We find that not only do we get the exact thing we wanted, but all the copies that people posted to their own websites.....so we can sick our legal team on them.....just kidding. Search Basics---If you know NOTHING about search engines (but can spel gud...sort of.), just type in words and phrases that you know were used. It's not the cleanest way, but it will get the job done. Regards, Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge MA 01550-2705 (508) 764-2072 Ring the bells that still can ring Forget your perfect offering There is a crack in everything That's how the light gets in. ---Leonard Cohen


    Message 13


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    Time: 07:47:51 PM PST US
    From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
    Subject: Re: 28V Turn & Bank
    --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net> The calibration seemed to be still in the ballpark while "flying" around my basement with a stopwatch... Certainly adequate for basic needle and ball work. I was surprised how little the rpm seemed to slow when dropping the voltage. It sits beside a vacuum unit so I'll get a good comparison next year. For $25. this was one of the best values in the plane and I was delighted not to need to build a 28 volt power supply. I have no idea whether this would be common or whether I just got lucky. Ken Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net> > >At 09:16 PM 11/4/2005 -0500, you wrote: > > > >>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ken <klehman@albedo.net> >> >>Have you tried it? I have one that seems to run just fine on 12 volts. >>Slightly lower rpm and the current is not much different either. >>Ken >> >>Ron wrote: >> >> > > But the motor does run slower. You may find that the > instrument's calibration is decidedly different. The > device might now be calibrated for a 5-6 minute turn instead > of a 3 minute turn. Worth investigating while airborne. > > Bob . . . > > >




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