Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:41 AM - Wig-wag wiring (Rodney Dunham)
2. 04:46 AM - MD200-306 indicator shared with two navs ()
3. 05:36 AM - Follow Up on Ray Allen Indicator and PTT (MikeEasley@aol.com)
4. 06:18 AM - Re: Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 (Charlie Kuss)
5. 07:01 AM - Re: Re: GPS IFR requirements (William)
6. 07:42 AM - Re: Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
7. 08:16 AM - Re: Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 (Charlie Kuss)
8. 08:32 AM - Re: Follow Up on Ray Allen Indicator and PTT (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 08:36 AM - Re: Wig-wag wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 08:38 AM - Re: Thanks Bob; A Good Book (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 08:39 AM - Re: Strobe noise on Piper Archer II - (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 08:53 AM - Re: Follow Up on Ray Allen Indicator and PTT (Dave Morris \)
13. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
14. 09:01 AM - More noise (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
15. 09:24 AM - Re: Follow Up on Ray Allen Indicator and PTT (Mark R Steitle)
16. 09:46 AM - GPS updates (B Tomm)
17. 10:15 AM - Re: GPS updates (Wayne Sweet)
18. 10:32 AM - Re: More noise (Mickey Coggins)
19. 10:49 AM - Re: More noise (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
20. 12:18 PM - Re: Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 (Vern W.)
21. 12:49 PM - Re: gpsmap 296/396 on ebay ()
22. 01:49 PM - Re: Re: gpsmap 296/396 on ebay (N5SL)
23. 01:55 PM - Re: Follow Up on Ray Allen Indicator and PTT (John Schroeder)
24. 02:04 PM - Re: Follow Up on Ray Allen Indicator and PTT (Mark R Steitle)
25. 02:37 PM - Re: Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 ()
26. 03:50 PM - GPS IFR requirements ()
27. 04:08 PM - Re: Re: gpsmap 296/396 on ebay (JIM)
28. 05:30 PM - Re: gpsmap 296/396 on ebay (rd2@evenlink.com)
29. 07:28 PM - Re: AeroElectric Connection (Ron)
30. 08:47 PM - Re: Re: gpsmap 296/396 on ebay (Mark)
31. 09:34 PM - Re: Re: gpsmap 296/396 on ebay (Richard E. Tasker)
Message 1
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham" <rdunhamtn@hotmail.com>
Bob,
What is the purpose of the rectifier in the wig-wag drawing. It looks like
it could be eliminated with no change in current pathways or switch
function. What am I missing???
Rodney in Tennessee
Message 2
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| Subject: | MD200-306 indicator shared with two navs |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bbradburry@allvantage.com>
My original plan was to install the Garmin GNS430 and SL30 with one
MD200-306, which would be shared with the two navs. I have been told that
this will not work as the indicator has to be calibrated for each nav and
will be inaccurate with the other one. I now do not know if I have panel
space for the second indicator (not to mention the bucks!)
Two questions...
One - Is this true? Do I really have to have an indicator dedicated to each
nav?
Two - If not true, how do I switch between the two navs on the indicator?
Thanks,
Bill Bradburry
Message 3
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| Subject: | Follow Up on Ray Allen Indicator and PTT |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeEasley@aol.com
Yesterday, we did a couple more tests, with no solution found. We
disconnected the antenna and attached a flexible rubber antenna from a handheld
and
transmitted, no change, the LED still illuminated.
His indicator is located right below his radio stack. So it's only a few
inches from the com radio. I took some aluminum foil and placed a sheet of it
below the radios, between the LED indicator and the radios. No help.
We made sure the radio was fully seated in the tray, thinking some RF was
leaking at the back of the radio. No help.
So, have we eliminated RF as the cause? Or is there some other way that RF
is lighting up the LED?
He only has one trim, but we did try both PTTs and it's the same on both.
Another observation, the LED that illuminates is the same one that
illuminates when you disconnect the position sensor. It's also the one that
illuminates when the position sensor is extended. I'm assuming that the movement
of
the position sensor changes the voltage or resistance on one of the three
wires and that's what controls the LEDs. Can you tell I don't know too much
about electricity?
So the PTT is either simulating a disconnected sensor or simulating a fully
extended sensor.
When we disconnect the wiring running from the LED to the position sensor,
we get a bright top LED. Then we push the PTT button and the LED dims. With
the wiring connected, the center LED is illuminated. It goes out and the top
LED comes on bright when we push the PTT. The dimmer circuit works
correctly. When we turn on the panel light switch, the LED dims just like it
should.
It can't be caused by anything at the position sensor because when we
disconnect the wiring running to it the problem is still there. It can't be the
antenna wire running parallel to the position sensor wiring because we hooked
up the flexible antenna and still go the problem.
So what's left? Grounding. On a Glasair airframe we don't have to worry
about any current leaking through the glass.
Where should be start looking for a ground problem? Maybe the com radio
case needs to be grounded. Maybe some current is running through the panel and
triggering the LED. I think we might try measuring from the metal inserts on
the panel to ground and see if there's any voltage across there.
Interestingly, my Lancair doesn't exhibit any of these symptoms. I have my
trim wires bundled with my com antenna wire, RG58, the entire length of the
fuselage. My indicators are mounted 15" away from the radio stack.
Keep the comments coming, thanks in advance.
Mike Easley
Colorado Springs
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
Stormy,
First I must apologize about the tardiness of this reply. My friend sent
his Rockwell hardness testing machine out for repairs shortly before this
discussion began in late August. The repair shop recently reported that
his machine could not be economically repaired, so that eliminated my hope
of directly testing the hardness of my magneto gears.
I subscribe to the Lycoming List on Yahoo. I posed the question of
accessory gear hardness on that list. Dave from Superior replied to me
stating that these gears are hardened to between 25 and 46 Rockwell. As a
point of reference, your typical hand file is 62 Rockwell. Therefore the
EMag folks need to have these gears hardened, if they expect them to have
any sort of longevity in service.
I am currently awaiting a clarification from Dave regarding this "spread"
of Rockwell numbers for these gears. I wish to know if the 25 to 46 is a
tolerance range, OR if the various gears in the accessory case are hardened
to differing numbers. I would suspect that the smaller gears may be heat
treated to a higher (harder) Rockwell number, as they spin faster than the
larger gears. This subjects them to greater wear. Increasing the hardness
of the smaller gears should help extend their life. This is simply
conjecture on my part for the moment.
What did you learn from Brad at EMag
Charlie Kuss
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
>
>That will be interesting, Charlie. Let us know what you learn about the
>gear hardness. Meanwhile, I will querry Brad at Emag for more details.
>
>-Stormy
>
>
> >>PS I'm on vacation this week. When I get home, I'll check the Rockwell
> hardness
>of some old Lycoming timing gears I have.<<
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: GPS IFR requirements |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "William" <wschertz@ispwest.com>
I believe you will have to take it back into 'test phase', and run a
simulated Instrument Operation and log them into your test setup.
Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser # 4045
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: GPS IFR requirements
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
> <frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
> Actually you don't need a "sign off" for IFR work. I will have mine
> inspected for VFR and slide the GNS 430 in later to the preinstalled
> tray...I then have the pitot-static/transponder check don and its legal
> for IFR...as long as I say so in my OP-lims.
>
> I mean what does it say for my auto conversion??..Nothing...:)
>
> Frank
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jon
> Goguen
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: GPS IFR requirements
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Jon Goguen
> --> <jon.goguen@umassmed.edu>
>
> I assumed this to be correct, and bought an IFR certified GPS. On the
> other hand, if I look in the Rotax 912S manual, it says the engine is
> restricted to use for day VFR only. This injunction also appears in the
> manual for the certified version of the engine. I assume that
> Rotax-powered ships do get signed off for IFR use, so the restrictions
> in the operating manuals must still allow some lattitude. Is this
> correct?
>
> Jon
>
> Jon Goguen
> jon.goguen@umassmed.edu
> Central Massachusetts
> Kitfox Series V Rotax 912S / N456JG (reserved) Complete except for
> electrics and avionics
>
> "Nothing worth knowing can be understood by the human mind"
> --Woody Allen
> On Nov 17, 2005, at 3:26 PM, Glaeser, Dennis A wrote:
>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Glaeser, Dennis A"
>> <dennis.glaeser@eds.com>
>>
>> That's correct. As homebuilders we have lots of latitude, but not THAT
>
>> much :-)
>>
>> Dennis Glaeser
>>
>> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
>> Do I take this to mean that if the GPS mfgr says his product is for
>> VFR only, that there's no way for the homebuilder to legislate his way
>
>> around that in the Pilot's Operating Handbook that he writes for the
>> airplane?
>>
>> -Stormy
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Interesting,
I have an ECI parts engine built up by Mattituck and the mag gears came
in a little plastic baggie..I can tell you they are SOFT!
I marked the tips with a file very easily...Havent installed them yet
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Charlie Kuss
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss
--> <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
Stormy,
First I must apologize about the tardiness of this reply. My friend
sent his Rockwell hardness testing machine out for repairs shortly
before this discussion began in late August. The repair shop recently
reported that his machine could not be economically repaired, so that
eliminated my hope of directly testing the hardness of my magneto gears.
I subscribe to the Lycoming List on Yahoo. I posed the question of
accessory gear hardness on that list. Dave from Superior replied to me
stating that these gears are hardened to between 25 and 46 Rockwell. As
a point of reference, your typical hand file is 62 Rockwell. Therefore
the EMag folks need to have these gears hardened, if they expect them to
have any sort of longevity in service.
I am currently awaiting a clarification from Dave regarding this
"spread"
of Rockwell numbers for these gears. I wish to know if the 25 to 46 is a
tolerance range, OR if the various gears in the accessory case are
hardened to differing numbers. I would suspect that the smaller gears
may be heat treated to a higher (harder) Rockwell number, as they spin
faster than the larger gears. This subjects them to greater wear.
Increasing the hardness of the smaller gears should help extend their
life. This is simply conjecture on my part for the moment.
What did you learn from Brad at EMag
Charlie Kuss
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
>
>That will be interesting, Charlie. Let us know what you learn about
>the gear hardness. Meanwhile, I will querry Brad at Emag for more
details.
>
>-Stormy
>
>
> >>PS I'm on vacation this week. When I get home, I'll check the
> >>Rockwell
> hardness
>of some old Lycoming timing gears I have.<<
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
Frank,
I'm not sure if you recall the start of this thread. A lister purchased
an electronic ignition from EMag. EMag supplied him with magneto drive
gears. These gears started to shed metal into the oil rather rapidly. The
owner reported that there was no heat treating of the EMag supplied gears.
Since your file is Rockwell 62, it should notch gears which are only
Rockwell 25 to 46. Industrial gears are commonly heat treated to Rockwell
47 to 52. The Lycoming accessory gears are softer. A higher Rockwell number
will reduce normal wear, but makes the parts more brittle. This may be why
the Lycoming parts are not as hard. They want to prevent a catastrophic
failure of any part.
Charlie
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)"
><frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
>Interesting,
>
>I have an ECI parts engine built up by Mattituck and the mag gears came
>in a little plastic baggie..I can tell you they are SOFT!
>
>I marked the tips with a file very easily...Havent installed them yet
>
>Frank
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>Charlie Kuss
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com; sportav8r@aol.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss
>--> <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
>
>Stormy,
> First I must apologize about the tardiness of this reply. My friend
>sent his Rockwell hardness testing machine out for repairs shortly
>before this discussion began in late August. The repair shop recently
>reported that his machine could not be economically repaired, so that
>eliminated my hope of directly testing the hardness of my magneto gears.
> I subscribe to the Lycoming List on Yahoo. I posed the question of
>accessory gear hardness on that list. Dave from Superior replied to me
>stating that these gears are hardened to between 25 and 46 Rockwell. As
>a point of reference, your typical hand file is 62 Rockwell. Therefore
>the EMag folks need to have these gears hardened, if they expect them to
>have any sort of longevity in service.
> I am currently awaiting a clarification from Dave regarding this
>"spread"
>of Rockwell numbers for these gears. I wish to know if the 25 to 46 is a
>tolerance range, OR if the various gears in the accessory case are
>hardened to differing numbers. I would suspect that the smaller gears
>may be heat treated to a higher (harder) Rockwell number, as they spin
>faster than the larger gears. This subjects them to greater wear.
>Increasing the hardness of the smaller gears should help extend their
>life. This is simply conjecture on my part for the moment.
> What did you learn from Brad at EMag
>Charlie Kuss
>
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
> >
> >That will be interesting, Charlie. Let us know what you learn about
> >the gear hardness. Meanwhile, I will querry Brad at Emag for more
>details.
> >
> >-Stormy
> >
> >
> > >>PS I'm on vacation this week. When I get home, I'll check the
> > >>Rockwell
> > hardness
> >of some old Lycoming timing gears I have.<<
> >
> >
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Follow Up on Ray Allen Indicator and PTT |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
The thread on this topic is germane to some work I'm doing at RAC
right now. We produce some very complex airplanes where the potential
for interference between systems is great. I've often cited the value
of designing products that take advantage of design goals cited in
DO-160 for victims and MIL-STD-704 for potential antagonists in the
electrical system. I just finished "fixing" an airplane fitted with
generator control units crafted and qualified in the 60's and grand-fathered
onto our current production aircraft. I added 16 bypass capacitors
inside the mating plug to attenuate entry of strong RF fields into
the controller's inner works.
In this case, we have a combination of two conditions . . .
(1)the victim GCU was not qualified to modern design goals
and (2) we have a high powered HF radio system with too many
unanswered or poorly understood questions with respect to the
design of the antenna.
A classic example of an antagonist that's broken through the
ceiling of allowable stresses and a victim that's ill equipped
to live in the high stress environment. The ideal fix would be
to re-engineer the antenna . . . a VERY expensive activity. The
next best would be to get the GCU upgraded to add the necessary
capacitors inside . . . but nobody wants to spend a lot of money
to re-qualify a 40 year old design that for the most part, has
worked well.
An examination of this thread suggests that the root cause of symptoms
noted is an extra-ordinary sensitivity by the LED indicator to local
RF stresses. A judicious placement of some simple filters would
make the problem go away on 100% of installations. This is something
the manufacturer should do but won't until the collective
customer base brings sufficient marketplace pressures to bear.
In the mean time, we'll continue to read threads on the 'net how
one builder 'fixed' the problem my moving a ground wire, adding
a ferrite bead, or some other activity. I've likened these efforts
to pushing the muddy water around on the floor with a squeegee
until you've provided sufficient isolation between the mud
and the spot you'd like to make a bit cleaner. There's no effort
made to really scoop up the mud and discard it. We've done
$millions$ of mud-pushing exercises over the years and will
probably do $millions$ more in the future.
If someone can get a schematic of the LED indicator assembly, I
can recommend filters that will actually scoop up some mud. By the
way, I just redesigned an LED bar graph display used on one of
our production aircraft to eliminate a similar sensitivity to RF.
It would not surprise me that the same fix is applicable here.
Be responsible consumers . . . put this in the manufacturer's lap
and let them know that no-cost help is available.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Wig-wag wiring |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 07:39 AM 11/18/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Rodney Dunham"
><rdunhamtn@hotmail.com>
>
>Bob,
>
>What is the purpose of the rectifier in the wig-wag drawing. It looks like
>it could be eliminated with no change in current pathways or switch
>function. What am I missing???
Without the diodes, the two lamp circuits are tied together
and cannot be independently illuminated. The lamps would be
steady-ON in both positions of the control switch.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Thanks Bob; A Good Book |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
At 10:56 AM 11/17/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Will N. Stevenson"
><will@wavecable.com>
>
>'Lectric Bob,
>
>Thank you for your wonderful AeroElectric Connection publication. I'm
>almost finished and understand what everybody on the List is talking about
>now. It's great to read clearly written explanations and lessen areas of
>ignorance.
Thank you sir. I'm pleased that you find the work so useful.
>Further in that vein, here's a clearly written and profusely illustrated,
>systems type approach to avionics that might be appealing to other beginning
>avionics buffs. It's titled "Avionics Training: Systems, Installation and
>Troubleshooting" by Len Buckwalter, located at
>http://avionics.com/index.html . The chapters on "Connectors" and "Wiring
>the Airplane" are good, though he does seem to lean towards ring and knife
>connectors. There are chapters on all the different avionic systems out
>there now. There is a lot of easily understood information in this book.
>It's just recently published.
>
>The website itself has a lot of information and books about avionics,
>enjoyable to look through.
Len is a talented systems integrator and a good teacher. We've
spoken on the phone many times in the past. I've not conversed
with him recently. Your note reminds me that we need to talk
again soon and "catch up" . . .
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Strobe noise on Piper Archer II - |
resolved
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
resolved
At 03:16 PM 11/15/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
><mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
> > I'm getting a lot of strobe noise - kind of a
> > whooping sound - in one of our club's Pipers.
> > It's so bad I can't run the strobes and listen
> > to the radio. I've read in the archives that
> > people have solved this problem with a capacitor
> > somewhere, but I can't find the details. Any
> > hints appreciated before we give it to the shop
> > for them to spend 2 weeks debugging it at a
> > thousand dollars an hour, or whatever they charge.
>
>Just a follow-up on this thread. I didn't get to
>do the work myself, but it seems the problem was
>with multiple ground paths. They say they brought
>everything to a single ground point, and that has
>solved the problem.
>
>I was out chasing needles today, and I can confirm
>that the whoop-whoop sound is gone.
>
>Many thanks to all for the various hints and tips
>that you sent me.
Thanks for the follow up Mickey!
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Follow Up on Ray Allen Indicator and PTT |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com>
Getting RF out of components involves some detective work, so I'll just
throw out some suggestions and ideas of the top of my head.
First you have to remember that an LED is a light emitting diode, and a
diode is what is used to detect RF in the first place. If the position
indicator circuit has some form of amplifier in it, then you could be
getting RF in that way.
Putting an aluminum shield between the radio and the LED, but not grounding
the aluminum shield, makes it useless as a shield. If your radio case is
not grounded, then all that aluminum around the circuitry is worthless. I
can't imagine a reason not to ground the case.
Remember that a "ground" in an airplane is a misnomer, because you're not
on the ground, so the more useful term is "common".
If your antenna is severely mismatched to the coax or radio, you will have
a lot of stray RF floating around. (Is the radio connector broken? Is the
coax broken?) I've had this happen in 100W transmitters feeding
incorrectly matched antennas, where I actually burned my lips on the
microphone because there was so much RF in the supposedly grounded metal.
If all else fails, use the position indicator as an "On The Air"
annunciator light. :)
Dave Morris
At 07:35 AM 11/18/2005, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeEasley@aol.com
>
>Yesterday, we did a couple more tests, with no solution found. We
>disconnected the antenna and attached a flexible rubber antenna from a
>handheld and
>transmitted, no change, the LED still illuminated.
>
>His indicator is located right below his radio stack. So it's only a few
>inches from the com radio. I took some aluminum foil and placed a sheet
>of it
>below the radios, between the LED indicator and the radios. No help.
>
>We made sure the radio was fully seated in the tray, thinking some RF was
>leaking at the back of the radio. No help.
>
>So, have we eliminated RF as the cause? Or is there some other way that RF
>is lighting up the LED?
>
>He only has one trim, but we did try both PTTs and it's the same on both.
>
>Another observation, the LED that illuminates is the same one that
>illuminates when you disconnect the position sensor. It's also the one that
>illuminates when the position sensor is extended. I'm assuming that the
>movement of
>the position sensor changes the voltage or resistance on one of the three
>wires and that's what controls the LEDs. Can you tell I don't know too much
>about electricity?
>
>So the PTT is either simulating a disconnected sensor or simulating a fully
>extended sensor.
>
>When we disconnect the wiring running from the LED to the position sensor,
>we get a bright top LED. Then we push the PTT button and the
>LED dims. With
>the wiring connected, the center LED is illuminated. It goes out and the
>top
>LED comes on bright when we push the PTT. The dimmer circuit works
>correctly. When we turn on the panel light switch, the LED dims just
>like it should.
>
>It can't be caused by anything at the position sensor because when we
>disconnect the wiring running to it the problem is still there. It
>can't be the
>antenna wire running parallel to the position sensor wiring because
>we hooked
>up the flexible antenna and still go the problem.
>
>
>So what's left? Grounding. On a Glasair airframe we don't have to worry
>about any current leaking through the glass.
>
>Where should be start looking for a ground problem? Maybe the com radio
>case needs to be grounded. Maybe some current is running through
>the panel and
>triggering the LED. I think we might try measuring from the metal
>inserts on
>the panel to ground and see if there's any voltage across there.
>
>Interestingly, my Lancair doesn't exhibit any of these symptoms. I have my
>trim wires bundled with my com antenna wire, RG58, the entire length of the
>fuselage. My indicators are mounted 15" away from the radio stack.
>
>Keep the comments coming, thanks in advance.
>
>Mike Easley
>Colorado Springs
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
I have my suspicions that EMAG gets their gears from ECI...When I spoke
to Emag they said they could not explain the wear...Possibly something
got between the mounting flange mating surfaces and moved the gear out
of alignment...Hmmm
As I just have the gears in the baggie and they appear dead soft I'm
wondering what the outcome will be.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Charlie Kuss
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss
--> <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
Frank,
I'm not sure if you recall the start of this thread. A lister
purchased an electronic ignition from EMag. EMag supplied him with
magneto drive gears. These gears started to shed metal into the oil
rather rapidly. The owner reported that there was no heat treating of
the EMag supplied gears.
Since your file is Rockwell 62, it should notch gears which are only
Rockwell 25 to 46. Industrial gears are commonly heat treated to
Rockwell
47 to 52. The Lycoming accessory gears are softer. A higher Rockwell
number will reduce normal wear, but makes the parts more brittle. This
may be why the Lycoming parts are not as hard. They want to prevent a
catastrophic failure of any part.
Charlie
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George
(Corvallis)"
><frank.hinde@hp.com>
>
>Interesting,
>
>I have an ECI parts engine built up by Mattituck and the mag gears came
>in a little plastic baggie..I can tell you they are SOFT!
>
>I marked the tips with a file very easily...Havent installed them yet
>
>Frank
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
>Charlie Kuss
>To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com; sportav8r@aol.com
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
>
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss
>--> <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
>
>Stormy,
> First I must apologize about the tardiness of this reply. My friend
>sent his Rockwell hardness testing machine out for repairs shortly
>before this discussion began in late August. The repair shop recently
>reported that his machine could not be economically repaired, so that
>eliminated my hope of directly testing the hardness of my magneto
gears.
> I subscribe to the Lycoming List on Yahoo. I posed the question of
>accessory gear hardness on that list. Dave from Superior replied to me
>stating that these gears are hardened to between 25 and 46 Rockwell. As
>a point of reference, your typical hand file is 62 Rockwell. Therefore
>the EMag folks need to have these gears hardened, if they expect them
>to have any sort of longevity in service.
> I am currently awaiting a clarification from Dave regarding this
>"spread"
>of Rockwell numbers for these gears. I wish to know if the 25 to 46 is
>a tolerance range, OR if the various gears in the accessory case are
>hardened to differing numbers. I would suspect that the smaller gears
>may be heat treated to a higher (harder) Rockwell number, as they spin
>faster than the larger gears. This subjects them to greater wear.
>Increasing the hardness of the smaller gears should help extend their
>life. This is simply conjecture on my part for the moment.
> What did you learn from Brad at EMag Charlie Kuss
>
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
> >
> >That will be interesting, Charlie. Let us know what you learn about
> >the gear hardness. Meanwhile, I will querry Brad at Emag for more
>details.
> >
> >-Stormy
> >
> >
> > >>PS I'm on vacation this week. When I get home, I'll check the
> > >>Rockwell
> > hardness
> >of some old Lycoming timing gears I have.<<
> >
> >
>
>
Message 14
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Yes one day I hoping for a similar solution to my radio noise...Its only
on the radio (noise goes up and down with the volume) and its ignition
noise, alternator...Oh AND strobe....Bloody awful.
Funny thing is when you first start up the alternator is not charging
and there is no noise at all...Then you turn on the alt and I get
evrything..>Its like it tolerates so much and the alternatr kicks it
over the threashold.
I have my behind the seat mounted battery grounded locally...Yep I use
the airframe as the ground path so I'm wondering if I have a multiple
ground path issue..any thoughts??
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L. Nuckolls, III
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Strobe noise on Piper Archer II -
resolved
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
--> <nuckollsr@cox.net> resolved
At 03:16 PM 11/15/2005 +0100, you wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
><mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
> > I'm getting a lot of strobe noise - kind of a whooping sound - in
Message 15
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| Subject: | Follow Up on Ray Allen Indicator and PTT |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
Mike,
I had a similar problem on my ES. It was driving me nuts, and I was
about to admit defeat when I accidentally fixed it. I noticed that it
was no longer misbehaving after I moved the BMA EFIS-1 CPU from behind
the panel (near the LED indicators) to under the back seat. I'm no
electronics whiz, but it tells me that it wasn't a bad ground, but RF
related. I also had noise in the radio whenever the EFIS-1 was powered
up. Moving it to the back seat appears to have silenced a lot of
gremlins.
Mark S.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
MikeEasley@aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Follow Up on Ray Allen Indicator and PTT
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: MikeEasley@aol.com
Yesterday, we did a couple more tests, with no solution found. We
disconnected the antenna and attached a flexible rubber antenna from a
handheld and
transmitted, no change, the LED still illuminated.
His indicator is located right below his radio stack. So it's only a
few
inches from the com radio. I took some aluminum foil and placed a
sheet of it
below the radios, between the LED indicator and the radios. No help.
We made sure the radio was fully seated in the tray, thinking some RF
was
leaking at the back of the radio. No help.
So, have we eliminated RF as the cause? Or is there some other way
that RF
is lighting up the LED?
He only has one trim, but we did try both PTTs and it's the same on
both.
Another observation, the LED that illuminates is the same one that
illuminates when you disconnect the position sensor. It's also the one
that
illuminates when the position sensor is extended. I'm assuming that
the movement of
the position sensor changes the voltage or resistance on one of the
three
wires and that's what controls the LEDs. Can you tell I don't know too
much
about electricity?
So the PTT is either simulating a disconnected sensor or simulating a
fully
extended sensor.
When we disconnect the wiring running from the LED to the position
sensor,
we get a bright top LED. Then we push the PTT button and the LED dims.
With
the wiring connected, the center LED is illuminated. It goes out and
the top
LED comes on bright when we push the PTT. The dimmer circuit works
correctly. When we turn on the panel light switch, the LED dims just
like it should.
It can't be caused by anything at the position sensor because when we
disconnect the wiring running to it the problem is still there. It
can't be the
antenna wire running parallel to the position sensor wiring because we
hooked
up the flexible antenna and still go the problem.
So what's left? Grounding. On a Glasair airframe we don't have to
worry
about any current leaking through the glass.
Where should be start looking for a ground problem? Maybe the com
radio
case needs to be grounded. Maybe some current is running through the
panel and
triggering the LED. I think we might try measuring from the metal
inserts on
the panel to ground and see if there's any voltage across there.
Interestingly, my Lancair doesn't exhibit any of these symptoms. I
have my
trim wires bundled with my com antenna wire, RG58, the entire length of
the
fuselage. My indicators are mounted 15" away from the radio stack.
Keep the comments coming, thanks in advance.
Mike Easley
Colorado Springs
Message 16
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "B Tomm" <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
Does anybody have a fast answer for me. Are data base updates still
available for the Garmin GX50 GPS? If so only from Garmin direct or a
dealer? What is Garmin's track record for supporting older products ie: how
long will updates be available.
Bevan
RV7A wiring
Message 17
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Wayne Sweet" <w_sweet@comcast.net>
I had a GX50 before updating to a GNS430. You get the updates from Jeppesen.
You will need SkyboundUSB from Jeppesen, a user name and password, and also
a subscription of course. It's a piece of cake to download onto the data
card.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "B Tomm" <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: GPS updates
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "B Tomm" <fvalarm@rapidnet.net>
>
> Does anybody have a fast answer for me. Are data base updates still
> available for the Garmin GX50 GPS? If so only from Garmin direct or a
> dealer? What is Garmin's track record for supporting older products ie:
> how
> long will updates be available.
>
>
> Bevan
> RV7A wiring
>
>
>
Message 18
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> I have my behind the seat mounted battery grounded locally...Yep I use
> the airframe as the ground path so I'm wondering if I have a multiple
> ground path issue..any thoughts??
You're pretty sure the headset jacks are not grounded?
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive
Message 19
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--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Pretty sure, I mounted them on a piece of nylon...Worht a check though,
Thanks!
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Mickey Coggins
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: More noise
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins
--> <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> I have my behind the seat mounted battery grounded locally...Yep I use
> the airframe as the ground path so I'm wondering if I have a multiple
> ground path issue..any thoughts??
You're pretty sure the headset jacks are not grounded?
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vern W." <highflight1@gmail.com>
Devils's Advocate here...
First of all, as far as I know, there has been only one case of a gear
"shredding". Please correct me if I'm wrong.
If so, that would indicate that the installation of the gear itself
(alignment?.. in a bind?) may have been the problem rather than the hardness
of the gear. I'm not aware that there has been a rash of these failures.
Secondly, I came across a reference somewhere that from an engineering
standpoint, you would want an accessory gear to fail first rather than the
primary gear way inside the engine. If the accessory gear fails, it's better
if it doesn't take the mating gear with it which WOULD happen if the
accessory gear were hardened, fractured, and ended up in the cogs. Sort of a
sacrificial kind of thing.
An accessory gear failing would take out that mag but leave the other side
running, while losing the primary gear to severe damage caused by a piece of
Rockwell 62 floating around would take out the engine.... at altitude.
While I'm not outright defending Pmag, I think it's prudent to not assume
there's a "real" problem if this were just a one time occurance and the
original installation hasn't been inspected by a "pro".
Vern
On 11/18/05, Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net
> >
>
> Frank,
> I'm not sure if you recall the start of this thread. A lister purchased
> an electronic ignition from EMag. EMag supplied him with magneto drive
> gears. These gears started to shed metal into the oil rather rapidly. The
> owner reported that there was no heat treating of the EMag supplied gears.
> Since your file is Rockwell 62, it should notch gears which are only
> Rockwell 25 to 46. Industrial gears are commonly heat treated to Rockwell
> 47 to 52. The Lycoming accessory gears are softer. A higher Rockwell
> number
> will reduce normal wear, but makes the parts more brittle. This may be why
> the Lycoming parts are not as hard. They want to prevent a catastrophic
> failure of any part.
> Charlie
>
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George
> (Corvallis)"
> ><frank.hinde@hp.com>
> >
> >Interesting,
> >
> >I have an ECI parts engine built up by Mattituck and the mag gears came
> >in a little plastic baggie..I can tell you they are SOFT!
> >
> >I marked the tips with a file very easily...Havent installed them yet
> >
> >Frank
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> >Charlie Kuss
> >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com; sportav8r@aol.com
> >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
> >
> >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss
> >--> <chaztuna@adelphia.net >
> >
> >Stormy,
> > First I must apologize about the tardiness of this reply. My friend
> >sent his Rockwell hardness testing machine out for repairs shortly
> >before this discussion began in late August. The repair shop recently
> >reported that his machine could not be economically repaired, so that
> >eliminated my hope of directly testing the hardness of my magneto gears.
> > I subscribe to the Lycoming List on Yahoo. I posed the question of
> >accessory gear hardness on that list. Dave from Superior replied to me
> >stating that these gears are hardened to between 25 and 46 Rockwell. As
> >a point of reference, your typical hand file is 62 Rockwell. Therefore
> >the EMag folks need to have these gears hardened, if they expect them to
> >have any sort of longevity in service.
> > I am currently awaiting a clarification from Dave regarding this
> >"spread"
> >of Rockwell numbers for these gears. I wish to know if the 25 to 46 is a
> >tolerance range, OR if the various gears in the accessory case are
> >hardened to differing numbers. I would suspect that the smaller gears
> >may be heat treated to a higher (harder) Rockwell number, as they spin
> >faster than the larger gears. This subjects them to greater wear.
> >Increasing the hardness of the smaller gears should help extend their
> >life. This is simply conjecture on my part for the moment.
> > What did you learn from Brad at EMag
> >Charlie Kuss
> >
> >
> > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
> > >
> > >That will be interesting, Charlie. Let us know what you learn about
> > >the gear hardness. Meanwhile, I will querry Brad at Emag for more
> >details.
> > >
> > >-Stormy
> > >
> > >
> > > >>PS I'm on vacation this week. When I get home, I'll check the
> > > >>Rockwell
> > > hardness
> > >of some old Lycoming timing gears I have.<<
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> ,
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: gpsmap 296/396 on ebay |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
I emailed them (there are 6 auctions using 5 email address) and received the
same reply from every auction.
HI
First I want to tell you that my Garmin 396 are brand new,
unopened box all accessories included and also an international
warranty. The invoice will come at the same time with the package.
My price is the best you could get: 500 $, including the shipping
and insurance taxes. We will pay them because the package will be
delivered from Europe.I have 5 units avalaible. As delivery service
we use UPS 2 days air service or overnight (with insurance and 15
days return policy), because it's the faster also free. And if you
will have a quick payment, we must also have a quick delivery. So
that's why we use as a payment method Western Union money
transfer, the fastest and also very secure way of sending money.
So, if you agree with my terms I'm sure that we can close the deal
as soon as possible. Waiting your quick answer right now,
THANK YOU
Here all the auction #'s
5637278065
6227752104
6014568750
6014579860
7197890234
7197890192
All emails got the exact response:
RULY33@AOL.COM
SHOP826@AOL.COM
ATE12@AOL.COM
vero576@aol.com
Holly8800@aol.com
Also they state they are in the US in the location field of the auction
but than say they are in Europe. Looking at the user ID and the
auctions they bought or sold before they are all in Europe and
had nothing to do with avionics. THIS is a scam and I emailed
eBay but they left it on there? I hope no one mails them $500.
George.
---------------------------------
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: gpsmap 296/396 on ebay |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
Be sure to send a note to "abuse@aol.com" so aol will
deactivate the email addresses.
--- gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> All emails got the exact response:
> RULY33@AOL.COM
> SHOP826@AOL.COM
> ATE12@AOL.COM
> vero576@aol.com
> Holly8800@aol.com
>
__________________________________
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Follow Up on Ray Allen Indicator and PTT |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "John Schroeder" <jschroeder@perigee.net>
Hi Mark -
We have had our EFIS/ONE cpu under the left rear seat on our ES and we
still have the problem with the trim & flap LED indicators going mad when
we transmit on either com1 or the com 2 set. We did have a problem with
the SL-30 com and the EFIS. As soon as the EFIS came up, we got a constant
squelch in the headsets of the SL-30. We did a couple of the obvious and
set the squelch threshold a bit higher in the SL-30 setup checklist. That
seemed to cure the problem - for the moment at least.
Each trim system having an indicator (yaw, pitch and flap position) has
its own ground direct to the firewall ground buss. I believe that the
problem is with the LED indicator circuitry itself. Bad design? no EMI/RMI
shielding? Anyway... .
I'm with Gene. Since it doesn't affect the trim servos themselves, I'm not
going to worry about it until this bird flies for the first time and until
we get over the thrills of having our ES.
Cheers,
John
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 11:23:53 -0600, Mark R Steitle
<mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:
> I noticed that it was no longer misbehaving after I moved the BMA EFIS-1
> CPU from behind the panel (near the LED indicators) to > under the back
> seat.
--
Message 24
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| Subject: | Follow Up on Ray Allen Indicator and PTT |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark R Steitle" <mark.steitle@austin.utexas.edu>
John,
Sorry to hear that my "fix" didn't work for you. If you write the
manufacturer, please post their response for the benefit of us all.
Mark S.
Do not archive
<snip>
I'm with Gene. Since it doesn't affect the trim servos themselves, I'm
not
going to worry about it until this bird flies for the first time and
until
we get over the thrills of having our ES.
Cheers,
John
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2 |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
Vern,
I never said that the Lycoming or clone gears were supposed to be super hard or
dead soft. This thread was started when Frank reported his problem. He simply
wanted to know what, if any hardening treatments were applied to these gears.
I'm sure he wants to know if he simply got a "flute" defective part or if he
has other problems.
Strormy wondered aloud on list whether the gears were heat treated. I offered
to test some gears I own. I planned to use a friend's Rockwell tester. However,
the tester broke prior to my being able to use it. It has since been determined
that my buddy's tester is beyond fixing.
As an alternative I posted a question on another List regarding the manufacture
of these gears. Dave from Superior was kind enough to respond with an answer.
Charlie Kuss
---- "Vern W." <highflight1@gmail.com> wrote:
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Vern W." <highflight1@gmail.com>
>
> Devils's Advocate here...
> First of all, as far as I know, there has been only one case of a gear
> "shredding". Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> If so, that would indicate that the installation of the gear itself
> (alignment?.. in a bind?) may have been the problem rather than the hardness
> of the gear. I'm not aware that there has been a rash of these failures.
> Secondly, I came across a reference somewhere that from an engineering
> standpoint, you would want an accessory gear to fail first rather than the
> primary gear way inside the engine. If the accessory gear fails, it's better
> if it doesn't take the mating gear with it which WOULD happen if the
> accessory gear were hardened, fractured, and ended up in the cogs. Sort of a
> sacrificial kind of thing.
> An accessory gear failing would take out that mag but leave the other side
> running, while losing the primary gear to severe damage caused by a piece of
> Rockwell 62 floating around would take out the engine.... at altitude.
> While I'm not outright defending Pmag, I think it's prudent to not assume
> there's a "real" problem if this were just a one time occurance and the
> original installation hasn't been inspected by a "pro".
> Vern
>
> On 11/18/05, Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaztuna@adelphia.net
> > >
> >
> > Frank,
> > I'm not sure if you recall the start of this thread. A lister purchased
> > an electronic ignition from EMag. EMag supplied him with magneto drive
> > gears. These gears started to shed metal into the oil rather rapidly. The
> > owner reported that there was no heat treating of the EMag supplied gears.
> > Since your file is Rockwell 62, it should notch gears which are only
> > Rockwell 25 to 46. Industrial gears are commonly heat treated to Rockwell
> > 47 to 52. The Lycoming accessory gears are softer. A higher Rockwell
> > number
> > will reduce normal wear, but makes the parts more brittle. This may be why
> > the Lycoming parts are not as hard. They want to prevent a catastrophic
> > failure of any part.
> > Charlie
> >
> > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George
> > (Corvallis)"
> > ><frank.hinde@hp.com>
> > >
> > >Interesting,
> > >
> > >I have an ECI parts engine built up by Mattituck and the mag gears came
> > >in a little plastic baggie..I can tell you they are SOFT!
> > >
> > >I marked the tips with a file very easily...Havent installed them yet
> > >
> > >Frank
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> > >[mailto: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> > >Charlie Kuss
> > >To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com; sportav8r@aol.com
> > >Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Final (REALLY) PMag Update - Part 2
> > >
> > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss
> > >--> <chaztuna@adelphia.net >
> > >
> > >Stormy,
> > > First I must apologize about the tardiness of this reply. My friend
> > >sent his Rockwell hardness testing machine out for repairs shortly
> > >before this discussion began in late August. The repair shop recently
> > >reported that his machine could not be economically repaired, so that
> > >eliminated my hope of directly testing the hardness of my magneto gears.
> > > I subscribe to the Lycoming List on Yahoo. I posed the question of
> > >accessory gear hardness on that list. Dave from Superior replied to me
> > >stating that these gears are hardened to between 25 and 46 Rockwell. As
> > >a point of reference, your typical hand file is 62 Rockwell. Therefore
> > >the EMag folks need to have these gears hardened, if they expect them to
> > >have any sort of longevity in service.
> > > I am currently awaiting a clarification from Dave regarding this
> > >"spread"
> > >of Rockwell numbers for these gears. I wish to know if the 25 to 46 is a
> > >tolerance range, OR if the various gears in the accessory case are
> > >hardened to differing numbers. I would suspect that the smaller gears
> > >may be heat treated to a higher (harder) Rockwell number, as they spin
> > >faster than the larger gears. This subjects them to greater wear.
> > >Increasing the hardness of the smaller gears should help extend their
> > >life. This is simply conjecture on my part for the moment.
> > > What did you learn from Brad at EMag
> > >Charlie Kuss
> > >
> > >
> > > >--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
> > > >
> > > >That will be interesting, Charlie. Let us know what you learn about
> > > >the gear hardness. Meanwhile, I will querry Brad at Emag for more
> > >details.
> > > >
> > > >-Stormy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >>PS I'm on vacation this week. When I get home, I'll check the
> > > > >>Rockwell
> > > > hardness
> > > >of some old Lycoming timing gears I have.<<
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ,
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | GPS IFR requirements |
INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.4993 1.0000 0.0000
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <bakerocb@cox.net>
Avionics-List message previously posted by: "Fred Fillinger"
<n3eu@comcast.net>
....skip.....There is an Advisory Circular on "certifying" the
installation of GPS for IFR, but I don't see anywhere in the
FARs where we need follow it for a homebuilt as per the
other post. Of course, FAA has a concern where we're
slogging along in cloud and might cause a hazard to others,
due to our navigation error. So whatever is in the AC to
comply with the spirit of the document in that regard, plus
proper installation, seems reasonable to me......skip.....
Fred F.
11/18/2005
Hello Fred, I think that you are right on target. Please let me add a few
words about complying with AC 20-138A from a recent email exchange. OC
--------------------------RECENT EMAIL EXCHANGE----------------------
11/17/2005
Hello Wayne, Good to hear from you again. I'll respond with inserts below.
<<....skip.....My understanding is that any GPS used for primary navigation
must meet the TSO C129 guidelines, which basically boils down to having RAIM
prediction, RAIM notification, and ability for the external indicator to
become more sensitive.....skip......>>
OK, but don't forget AIM paragraph 1-1-19. d. 1. (b).
Otherwise I essentially agree, but let me pick a few nits. I know that AIM
Table 1-1-5 says TSO C129, but that is a bit misleading / out of date. (See
<http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap1/aim0101.html#1-1-19>). If one digs a
little deeper one finds TSO C129a, TSO C129 (AR), and TSO C146a, are also
relevant. Maybe the best way to describe the TSO requirement is to say that
one has met the
minimum GPS IFR requirements if one complies with the latest / current
version of TSO C129__ and the "appropriate" AIM requirements. More on
"appropriate" AIM requirements later.
Also note the subcategory capabilities within TSO C129__ shown in Table
1-1-5 of the AIM. . Without a copy of the current TSO and Table 1-1-5 in
front of one it is almost impossible to make a decision or take a definitive
stand on GPS IFR requirements.
The problem with getting the TSO documents and doing research is that the
TSO documents don't seamlessly relate to each other content wise and date
wise and frequently the TSO document is a bare shell with the meat of the
subject matter contained in several not readily available, and expensive if
available, documents that are referenced by the TSO.
<It must be installed according to AC 20-138.>
Not quite. For initial certification the inspector's IFR avionics inspection
obligation is
fulfilled by this sentence in each aircraft's Operating Limitations "After
completion of Phase I flight testing, unless appropriately equipped for
night and/or instrument flight in accordance with 91.205, this aircraft is
to be operated under VFR, day only." It is up to the builder and not the
inspector to "appropriately equip" his aircraft in this regard. An over
zealous inspector my have personal preferences in regard to IFR avionics and
because he has the power of the Administrator during the initial inspection
he may exert some influence, but he has no valid FAA prerogative with regard
to IFR avionics. That is why the recent great leaps forward in
instrumentation and avionics technology have come from the amateur built
experimental aircraft community -- our hands were not tied by inspectors
forcing us
to use the old fashioned tried and true hardware.
Here is the problem in trying to comply literally with AC 20-138A: When an
FAA bureaucrat or lawyer sits down to write an FAR, a NPRM, an Advisory
Circular, or a paragraph in the
AIM, unless that document is aimed specifically at aircraft with special
airworthiness certificates (and the writer is knowledgable thereof) the
document is fundamentally being written for type certificated aircraft with
standard airworthiness certificates. But the FAA doesn't make note of (or
appreciate) this fact. So AC 20-138A should really begin "1. PURPOSE. This
advisory circular (AC) provides guidance material for the airworthness
approval of Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS) equipment [and its
installation in standard type certificated aircraft]." My words added in
[xxx].
Now go to paragraph 21 of AC 20-138 INSTALLED PERFORMANCE - DATA SUBMITTAL.
The first sentence of paragraph 21.a. reads "General. This paragraph
identifies documentation typically required by the aircraft certification
authorities to support installation approval."
These "aircraft certification authorities" do not exist for installations in
previously certified amateur built experimental aircraft and if they existed
they would not have any published standards for amateur built aircraft to
measure compliance against. There is no FAA administrative mechanism for
additional certification approval of an amateur built experimental aircraft
after its initial
certification so there are no "certification authorities" to submit amateur
built experimental aircraft subsequent GPS installation documents to for
approval.** The Operating Limitations of each amateur built experimental
aircraft gives direction as to how major modifications are to be
accomplished and recorded by anyone doing so (doesn't have to be the
builder).
Minor modifications of the aircraft are left completely in the hands of
anyone choosing to make them.
The last sentence of paragraph 21. a. reads "The data described in this
paragraph is applicable to obtaining an STC, an amended TC or an amended
STC."
Amateur built experimental aircraft do not have Type Certificates so
it is not feasible to attempt to create documents in order to obtain
supplements or
amendments to a Type Certificate that does not exist.
So we amateur aircraft builders and pilots need to follow the AIM (and other
FAA documents) when appropriate, but recognize that sometimes attempting to
literally follow those documents just is not feasible.
<<Any GPS can be used as long as it meets the TSO.>>
Agreed.
OC
**PS: A few years back a builder posted his experience with trying to get
the FSDO to bless / approve / certify his GPS installation in an already
flying amateur built experimental aircraft in accordance with a then current
AC that called for a flight test (as does AC 20-138A). After months of paper
shuffling and delay he finally coerced a terrified FAA
bureaucrat to fly in his death machine. The FAA gent spent the entire
flight staring out the windshield waiting for either the inevitable mid air
collision or the imminent crash. The performance of the GPS installation was
beneath / beyond
his level of interest.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hicks, Wayne" <wayne.hicks@zeltech.com>
Subject: RE: Avionics-List: GPS IFR requirements
> We've had similar discussions on our canard email lists. My understanding
> is
> that any GPS used for primary navigation must meet the TSO C129
> guidelines,
> which basically boils down to having RAIM prediction, RAIM notification,
> and
> ability for the external indicator to become more sensitive. It must be
> installed according to AC 20-138. Any GPS can be used as long as it meets
> the TSO. But as of right now, the only units capable of doing this are
> from
> the big boys, like the Garmins, Kings, and others. Blue Mountain for
> example is not and cannot. Handhelds need not apply either.
>
> Do I have this right, or is it time to educate Wayne again. (I enjoy this
> so much.)
>
> ====================
> L. Wayne Hicks
> Senior Engineer
> Zel Technologies, LLC
> 757-325-1282 phone
> wayne.hicks@zeltech.com
> http://www.zeltech.com
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: gpsmap 296/396 on ebay |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "JIM" <perfeng@3rivers.net>
Also George Contact UPS and I would think Western Union. At least for UPS
they want to know everything about you and your business short of your hat
size before they accept you as a business shipper. Just a thought.
Jim Duckett
Please Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "N5SL" <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: gpsmap 296/396 on ebay
> --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: N5SL <nfivesl@yahoo.com>
>
> Be sure to send a note to "abuse@aol.com" so aol will
> deactivate the email addresses.
>
> --- gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> All emails got the exact response:
>> RULY33@AOL.COM
>> SHOP826@AOL.COM
>> ATE12@AOL.COM
>> vero576@aol.com
>> Holly8800@aol.com
>>
>
>
> __________________________________
>
>
>
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Re: gpsmap 296/396 on ebay |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com
Here is one of the answers I recieved:
Rumen
do not archive
---------------------------------------------------
From: Vero576@aol.com
Subject: Re: ebay item 6579193594
My name is MADALIN MIREL MORARU .In order to end this deal in good terms i
am going to
tell you some things that i want to follow:
1.GENERAL INFO- It is better for you to know that the item is
brand new it has never been opened, have international warranty
provided by the factory and come with all accesories that you need.
2. SHIPPMENT ---this is a thing about you shouldn't
worry about because i belive that it is my responasability to
deliver it to your home.We can do it through
-UPS overnighted
It will take one day and a half for the package to arrive to
your door.The shipping costs will be paid by me and i will also pay for the
insurance in case of any damage happens during the handling and shipping,so
i will be protected in case of damages and you too.
3.THE WAY TO PAY ---as a payment method i have
chosen WesternUnion's services because they always served our
interests in a professional manner and helped us gain buyers. i consider
promptitude a vital condition on the modern e-Commerce markets and a
guarantee of quality. To arrange the transfer, you must go in person to a
Western Union office and send the money from your name and address to my name
and address .Here are the details that you need for the money transfer:
First:MADALIN MIREL
Second:MORARU
street:BAia Doamnei 323
City:MARACINENI
State:Buzau
Country:Romania
Please be carrefull with my first and last name.
For sending the money you must find a western union agent location and send
the money from there because western union don't send the money online in
Romania
After that, you will recive an confirmation number and
I want you to send me the folowing details :
-the sender name
-the sender address
-the amount
-MTCN (money transfer control number)
4. REFOUND ---After the package arrives you have an 7 days period in which
you can send the package back for an full and NO
QUESTION refound,but you will pay for the shipping and handlling back to me.
5.TAXES ---There may be some customs duties for you to pay, but if you
wish we can avoid them (if any):
ME --i have to declare the item as a gift for you and in this way you will
pay NO costum fees and you will receive the item very fast.
YOU--have to declare at Western Union that you send the money to a friend
in Romania that need this money, in this way when
our deal will be finished and i get the money from W.U. without problems.
Please let me know when you can make the payment and after this i will
start the delivery process.
I hope you agree my terms and we will close this deal
sucessfully.
I look forward hearing from you.
Thanks!
_____________________Original message __________________________
(received from gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com; Date: 12:47 PM
11/18/2005 -0800)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
I emailed them (there are 6 auctions using 5 email address) and received
the same reply from every auction.
HI
First I want to tell you that my Garmin 396 are brand new,
unopened box all accessories included and also an international
warranty. The invoice will come at the same time with the package.
My price is the best you could get: 500 $, including the shipping
and insurance taxes. We will pay them because the package will be
delivered from Europe.I have 5 units avalaible. As delivery service
we use UPS 2 days air service or overnight (with insurance and 15
days return policy), because it's the faster also free. And if you
will have a quick payment, we must also have a quick delivery. So
that's why we use as a payment method Western Union money
transfer, the fastest and also very secure way of sending money.
So, if you agree with my terms I'm sure that we can close the deal
as soon as possible. Waiting your quick answer right now,
THANK YOU
Here all the auction #'s
5637278065
6227752104
6014568750
6014579860
7197890234
7197890192
All emails got the exact response:
RULY33@AOL.COM
SHOP826@AOL.COM
ATE12@AOL.COM
vero576@aol.com
Holly8800@aol.com
Also they state they are in the US in the location field of the auction
but than say they are in Europe. Looking at the user ID and the
auctions they bought or sold before they are all in Europe and
had nothing to do with avionics. THIS is a scam and I emailed
eBay but they left it on there? I hope no one mails them $500.
George.
---------------------------------
--
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | RE: AeroElectric Connection |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Ron" <rondefly@rtriano.com>
Z-11 & Z-20 Question
I want to use most of Z-11 but want to use one electronic ignition. Can I
use 2 2-5 switches as I would rather not have a push button start switch but
use the top momentary portion of the switches to start per note 2. I have a
continental 0200 with one mag.
Thankyou
Ron Triano
Ron's Quickies, Page 8 is the Q200 and 9 is the Quickie and page 10 is a new
Q200 page.
http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page8.html
http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page9.html
http://bld01.ipowerweb.com/contentmanagement/websites/rtrianoc/page10.html
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
rd2@evenlink.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: gpsmap 296/396 on ebay
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com
Here is one of the answers I recieved:
Rumen
do not archive
---------------------------------------------------
From: Vero576@aol.com
Subject: Re: ebay item 6579193594
My name is MADALIN MIREL MORARU .In order to end this deal in good terms i
am going to
tell you some things that i want to follow:
1.GENERAL INFO- It is better for you to know that the item is
brand new it has never been opened, have international warranty
provided by the factory and come with all accesories that you need.
2. SHIPPMENT ---this is a thing about you shouldn't
worry about because i belive that it is my responasability to
deliver it to your home.We can do it through
-UPS overnighted
It will take one day and a half for the package to arrive to
your door.The shipping costs will be paid by me and i will also pay for the
insurance in case of any damage happens during the handling and shipping,so
i will be protected in case of damages and you too.
3.THE WAY TO PAY ---as a payment method i have
chosen WesternUnion's services because they always served our
interests in a professional manner and helped us gain buyers. i consider
promptitude a vital condition on the modern e-Commerce markets and a
guarantee of quality. To arrange the transfer, you must go in person to a
Western Union office and send the money from your name and address to my
name
and address .Here are the details that you need for the money transfer:
First:MADALIN MIREL
Second:MORARU
street:BAia Doamnei 323
City:MARACINENI
State:Buzau
Country:Romania
Please be carrefull with my first and last name.
For sending the money you must find a western union agent location and send
the money from there because western union don't send the money online in
Romania
After that, you will recive an confirmation number and
I want you to send me the folowing details :
-the sender name
-the sender address
-the amount
-MTCN (money transfer control number)
4. REFOUND ---After the package arrives you have an 7 days period in which
you can send the package back for an full and NO
QUESTION refound,but you will pay for the shipping and handlling back to
me.
5.TAXES ---There may be some customs duties for you to pay, but if you
wish we can avoid them (if any):
ME --i have to declare the item as a gift for you and in this way you will
pay NO costum fees and you will receive the item very fast.
YOU--have to declare at Western Union that you send the money to a friend
in Romania that need this money, in this way when
our deal will be finished and i get the money from W.U. without problems.
Please let me know when you can make the payment and after this i will
start the delivery process.
I hope you agree my terms and we will close this deal
sucessfully.
I look forward hearing from you.
Thanks!
_____________________Original message __________________________
(received from gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com; Date: 12:47 PM
11/18/2005 -0800)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
I emailed them (there are 6 auctions using 5 email address) and received
the same reply from every auction.
HI
First I want to tell you that my Garmin 396 are brand new,
unopened box all accessories included and also an international
warranty. The invoice will come at the same time with the package.
My price is the best you could get: 500 $, including the shipping
and insurance taxes. We will pay them because the package will be
delivered from Europe.I have 5 units avalaible. As delivery service
we use UPS 2 days air service or overnight (with insurance and 15
days return policy), because it's the faster also free. And if you
will have a quick payment, we must also have a quick delivery. So
that's why we use as a payment method Western Union money
transfer, the fastest and also very secure way of sending money.
So, if you agree with my terms I'm sure that we can close the deal
as soon as possible. Waiting your quick answer right now,
THANK YOU
Here all the auction #'s
5637278065
6227752104
6014568750
6014579860
7197890234
7197890192
All emails got the exact response:
RULY33@AOL.COM
SHOP826@AOL.COM
ATE12@AOL.COM
vero576@aol.com
Holly8800@aol.com
Also they state they are in the US in the location field of the auction
but than say they are in Europe. Looking at the user ID and the
auctions they bought or sold before they are all in Europe and
had nothing to do with avionics. THIS is a scam and I emailed
eBay but they left it on there? I hope no one mails them $500.
George.
---------------------------------
--
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Message 30
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: gpsmap 296/396 on ebay |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark" <2eyedocs@comcast.net>
Well, that's enough for me. I'm on my way to my local Western Union office! ;)
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: rd2@evenlink.com
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 7:28 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: gpsmap 296/396 on ebay
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com
Here is one of the answers I recieved:
Rumen
do not archive
---------------------------------------------------
From: Vero576@aol.com
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 10:16:25 EST
Subject: Re: ebay item 6579193594
To: rd2@evenlink.com
My name is MADALIN MIREL MORARU .In order to end this deal in good terms i
am going to
tell you some things that i want to follow:
1.GENERAL INFO- It is better for you to know that the item is
brand new it has never been opened, have international warranty
provided by the factory and come with all accesories that you need.
2. SHIPPMENT ---this is a thing about you shouldn't
worry about because i belive that it is my responasability to
deliver it to your home.We can do it through
-UPS overnighted
It will take one day and a half for the package to arrive to
your door.The shipping costs will be paid by me and i will also pay for the
insurance in case of any damage happens during the handling and shipping,so
i will be protected in case of damages and you too.
3.THE WAY TO PAY ---as a payment method i have
chosen WesternUnion's services because they always served our
interests in a professional manner and helped us gain buyers. i consider
promptitude a vital condition on the modern e-Commerce markets and a
guarantee of quality. To arrange the transfer, you must go in person to a
Western Union office and send the money from your name and address to my name
and address .Here are the details that you need for the money transfer:
First:MADALIN MIREL
Second:MORARU
street:BAia Doamnei 323
City:MARACINENI
State:Buzau
Country:Romania
Please be carrefull with my first and last name.
For sending the money you must find a western union agent location and send
the money from there because western union don't send the money online in
Romania
After that, you will recive an confirmation number and
I want you to send me the folowing details :
-the sender name
-the sender address
-the amount
-MTCN (money transfer control number)
4. REFOUND ---After the package arrives you have an 7 days period in which
you can send the package back for an full and NO
QUESTION refound,but you will pay for the shipping and handlling back to me.
5.TAXES ---There may be some customs duties for you to pay, but if you
wish we can avoid them (if any):
ME --i have to declare the item as a gift for you and in this way you will
pay NO costum fees and you will receive the item very fast.
YOU--have to declare at Western Union that you send the money to a friend
in Romania that need this money, in this way when
our deal will be finished and i get the money from W.U. without problems.
Please let me know when you can make the payment and after this i will
start the delivery process.
I hope you agree my terms and we will close this deal
sucessfully.
I look forward hearing from you.
Thanks!
_____________________Original message __________________________
(received from gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com; Date: 12:47 PM
11/18/2005 -0800)
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
I emailed them (there are 6 auctions using 5 email address) and received
the same reply from every auction.
HI
First I want to tell you that my Garmin 396 are brand new,
unopened box all accessories included and also an international
warranty. The invoice will come at the same time with the package.
My price is the best you could get: 500 $, including the shipping
and insurance taxes. We will pay them because the package will be
delivered from Europe.I have 5 units avalaible. As delivery service
we use UPS 2 days air service or overnight (with insurance and 15
days return policy), because it's the faster also free. And if you
will have a quick payment, we must also have a quick delivery. So
that's why we use as a payment method Western Union money
transfer, the fastest and also very secure way of sending money.
So, if you agree with my terms I'm sure that we can close the deal
as soon as possible. Waiting your quick answer right now,
THANK YOU
Here all the auction #'s
5637278065
6227752104
6014568750
6014579860
7197890234
7197890192
All emails got the exact response:
RULY33@AOL.COM
SHOP826@AOL.COM
ATE12@AOL.COM
vero576@aol.com
Holly8800@aol.com
Also they state they are in the US in the location field of the auction
but than say they are in Europe. Looking at the user ID and the
auctions they bought or sold before they are all in Europe and
had nothing to do with avionics. THIS is a scam and I emailed
eBay but they left it on there? I hope no one mails them $500.
George.
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| Subject: | Re: gpsmap 296/396 on ebay |
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker@optonline.net>
Hey, while you are there, pay for one for me too. I will send you the
money after I get the unit.
Dick
do not archive
Mark wrote:
>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Mark" <2eyedocs@comcast.net>
>
>Well, that's enough for me. I'm on my way to my local Western Union office!
;)
>
>Mark
>
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